Erosion of north Wicklow coast. Possible cause: Greystones Harbour Development?

The Durutti Column

UPDATE: Paul Brosnan on GUBOH FB Page says:

The entrance to the North Beach at the Grove has now collapsed due to erosion over the past few days. Sispar's and Wicklow Co Co's arrogance is breathtaking. A few more days of North East winds and it will not be possible to access the North Beach except through the building site.

LifeBeginsAt40

The Durutti Column wrote: »

UPDATE: Paul Brosnan on GUBOH FB Page says:

The entrance to the North Beach at the Grove has now collapsed due to erosion over the past few days. Sispar's and Wicklow Co Co's arrogance is breathtaking. A few more days of North East winds and it will not be possible to access the North Beach except through the building site.

Yep, I was down there last week with the kids. Some pretty big cracks in the soil and pretty tricky getting onto the beach when the soil is wet. Another day or so of this wind and rain and that'll be the end of that access point.

pixbyjohn

The Durutti Column wrote: »

UPDATE: Paul Brosnan on GUBOH FB Page says:

The entrance to the North Beach at the Grove has now collapsed due to erosion over the past few days. Sispar's and Wicklow Co Co's arrogance is breathtaking. A few more days of North East winds and it will not be possible to access the North Beach except through the building site.

as shown here


30/04/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

Taltos

This thread is just making me very sad guys.
I loved that beach - many nights I just sat there listening to the waves on those blasted stones looking out at the reflection of the moon.

Obviously safer times than now - but you get the drift.

Unfortunately true erosion is both costly and difficult to fight.
Timely article posted yesterday in Aus: http://www.portnews.com.au/news/local/news/general/old-bar-beach-erosion-experience/2537779.aspx

It's clear from this and other similar articles that a concerted and timely effort is needed to tackle coastal erosion - as has been seen in some parts of the world either the will or the money is not available and homes/communities are lost. Can't find the story now but I remember that one in the UK that was on the TV a year or two ago.

Does anybody know have marine &/or environmental engineers been engaged by WCC to investigate the claims here? The reason I ask is until a report is issued stating categorically that increased coastal erosion is being experienced and is flagged by the national papers this is just something else that I can see being called as scaremongering.

(I am not saying it is - just calling out that I can see people saying we are exaggerating the normal loss of the cliff during storms - bs I think but again until they engage the professionals easy to say this and escape rebuke later "how was I to know I am not an engineer and we had no report..")

Cheeky Chops

pixbyjohn wrote: »

as shown here


30/04/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

For ****'s sake. This is criminal.

I'm close to despondency. I hate going near the place the devastation is so apparent.

Well if we ever needed a picture postcard to exemplify the abhorrent greed that has ripped this country to pieces than that is it.

LifeBeginsAt40

I appreciate that going off topic is not acceptable but....this image was taken near Woodbrook Golf Course in Bray back in 2011.

It goes without saying that a study of the effects of the Greystones Harbour and erosion should also consider the effects further up the coast.

WCC cannot ignore the issue, in a few years time the railway will need €1,000,000's spending on re-alignment too.

The most shocking thing about the image I posted is the landfill falling straight into the sea, bl**dy disgusting in my opinion.

Sticking your head in the (eroding) sand is not good enough, WCC! For goodness sake do something and stop blustering.

Jammyc

I wonder at what point will this start to become an issue for Irish Rail? I understand where it is being talked about now is further down, but if it is also affecting Bray then perhaps it could be affecting other parts of the coastline. Surely they would be obliged to take action regarding erosion at their railways.

LifeBeginsAt40

Jammyc wrote: »

I wonder at what point will this start to become an issue for Irish Rail? I understand where it is being talked about now is further down, but if it is also affecting Bray then perhaps it could be affecting other parts of the coastline. Surely they would be obliged to take action regarding erosion at their railways.

Indeed, something as simple as a new harbour on paper does (and we are living with the proof) have far and wide reaching implications in reality.

You absolutely cannot change the outline of the coastline and then walk away 3/4 way through the project, that is sheer environmental vandalism.

Langerland

pixbyjohn wrote: »

as shown here


30/04/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

This is completely beyond a joke now....its one thing arguing over plastic bollards....national media? Hello?

So much for swimming in Greystones anytime soon.

F3

DD9090 wrote: »

I do insist.

If you are going to make statements or accusations you will need to back it up with fact or I will have to remove your posts.

I also think your comments are harsh in this regard. I can also confirm that this information is in the public domain. This information is published in the Comptroller and Auditor General's Reports 2008 to 2010 incl. For those who do not no what the CAG reports are, they are the Government equivalent to a company's annual audited accounts.

DC may be forthright and passionate in his comments, but he is a valuable contributor to this thread and there are more polite ways of asking for substantiation of statements made. I'm sure you will agree that we can at least be polite to each other. F3

LifeBeginsAt40

Langerland wrote: »

This is completely beyond a joke now....its one thing arguing over plastic bollards....national media? Hello?

So much for swimming in Greystones anytime soon.

You wouldn't want to be marine life near Bray either if you have seen my image! How much plastic and waste can WCC allow to enter the sea unhindered?

pixbyjohn

North Beach today 2nd May 2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

pixbyjohn

At the North Beach 2nd May 2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

pixbyjohn

Gap Bridge area, North Beach, Greystones 2nd May 2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

pixbyjohn

North Beach Bank 2nd May 2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

LifeBeginsAt40

Amazing. I sat on that concrete slab only last week (pre-stormy weekend) with the OH and the kids.
I said to OH jokingly about the slab being close to the edge and she laughed and said it was solid!

Am looking forward to showing her your images, might see if she wants to have a stroll down this evening as the sun has come out.

I think it really is about time a concentrated effort was made online and these images placed on a website devoted to the erosion along these shores.
Get the press involved, get on twitter and spread the word properly. The time to act is now and WCC are now actively sitting back and watching land erode right before their eyes. Criminal.

How on earth Greystones can keep promoting itself as a tourist attraction with a lovely beach is beyond me. I think the time has (finally) come to attempt to shock WCC into doing something. Blue flag beaches? Not very blue flag is it with a few 100m of metal fencing in the sea for the kids to get caught up in. Not to mention the marine life that WCC are now killing.

Got to love Ireland, stick ya head in the sand and it'll all be grand. Guess what...it bl**dy isn't!

Fiachra2

Whats obvious if you look at Johns pictures is that -to add insult to injury-the concrete rubble from Sispar's batching plant is now falling onto the beach. If any citizen of this town attepted to dump a bit of rubbble from some DIY on the beach he would be duly prosecuted. But its ok when you have the blessing of your business partner-the officials of WCC.

To those of you feeling angry and want to do something, write to the three town councillors who are still staunchly supporting WCC's non-action and demand answers. Post their responses here and send them to the local press with your comments.

recedite

Fiachra2 wrote: »

to add insult to injury-the concrete rubble from Sispar's batching plant is now falling onto the beach.

Well, people did ask them to provide some "beach nourishment"

Cookie_Monster

Time to bypass WCC and got to the EPA regarding the dump being exposed IMO.

LEIN

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Time to bypass WCC and got to the EPA regarding the dump being exposed IMO.

The dump is being exposed in Bray.

LifeBeginsAt40

DD9090 wrote: »

The dump is being exposed in Bray.

Exactly my point! Coastal development in any area has repercussions over large areas!
We all shouldn't fall into the narrow minded trap of thinking the Greystones fiasco only affects Greystones!

It's bad enough WCC seem to think that way!

pixbyjohn

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

Amazing. I sat on that concrete slab only last week (pre-stormy weekend) with the OH and the kids.
I said to OH jokingly about the slab being close to the edge and she laughed and said it was solid!

A closer look

Devastation by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

LifeBeginsAt40

Hello John, yes myself and the OH had a walk down the Grove yesterday evening, let's hope for a calm summer and some action before the winter storms return. It's only a few short years of being too close to the railway!

LifeBeginsAt40

DD9090 wrote: »

My point is. It is a Bray issue and noting to do with the Greystones Harbour.



Show me the evidence to back your claim.

Otherwise start a thread regarding same on the Wicklow forum.

As anyone with even the most basic knowledge of currents and geology will know, changes travel far and wide.

The changes to the coastline at Bray may well be as a result of the Greystones development, you only have to Google 'coastal erosion' to work that out.

What is perhaps not in the public domain yet is just how the changes are effecting the coastline. It might be that the Dargle will silt up in 20 years.

The point several of us are making (and sadly you are out-voted on this one) is that ignoring the issue at Greystones DOES have an effect elsewhere.

And yes my OH does have a BSC in Geology.

Jammyc

Its most likely true but anyone from a scientific background will also know that nothing can be taken as fact until a concrete cause-effect relationship is established, which as of yet hasn't - not because there is none, but because nobody has looked into it.

I think efforts are best served now by letting relevant authorities higher than WCC know of the problems and let them come down on the problem makers.

mirekb

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

I am fed up with saying it. Will GUBOH call a public meeting?

Do we need GUBOH to call the meeting? We could have a meeting where all groups were invited to discuss it and that would take the pressure off there being an agenda from either side.

LifeBeginsAt40

Jammyc wrote: »

Its most likely true but anyone from a scientific background will also know that nothing can be taken as fact until a concrete cause-effect relationship is established, which as of yet hasn't - not because there is none, but because nobody has looked into it.

I think efforts are best served now by letting relevant authorities higher than WCC know of the problems and let them come down on the problem makers.

Exactly and sitting back and doing nothing is really not an option when large chunks of the coastline are being lost forever.
A study is needed now, by impartial professionals into what needs to be done to stem the erosion.

The issue of landfill falling into the sea and polluting it should also be of great concern, but as has been mentioned above it would seem the style of bollards is more important to some.
I have images of landfill falling into the sea at Bray and John has images of building materials falling into the sea at Greystones, the connection...WCC funnily enough.

The distance apart is some 6KM if that, the famous Chesil Beach in the UK is some 18 miles long, so don't give me the "it's Bray and not Greystones" chat as mother nature does not recognise town boundaries.

Chesil Beach - natural grading of coastline - proof.

F3

Some years ago when Ascon placed rock armour at the outfall from the treatment plant on the headland past charlesland, within months the south beach radically changed, it's called beach migration, simple cause and effect. The men's silted up until the recent easterly storms (which have been quite rare and not as strong as the recent two)

I bet you a pound to a penny, if it barks like a dog, bites like a dog, wags it's tail like a dog and smells like a dog then it's most probably a dog. There you go, I saved you hundred of thousands carrying out a scientific survey!

Plain and simple thr accelerated erosion on the north beach is 'on the balance of probabilities' due to the new harbour.

For those of you who do not know what the burden of proof in matters such as this is 'on the balance of probability' even for murder the burden of proof does not have to be absolute, it only needs to be 'beyond reasonable doubt'

So for those of you defending WCC & Sispar, please answer this question as your head hits the pillow tonight "do you think that on the balance of probability, the accelerated erosion is due to the construction of the new harbour and the failure by WCC / Sispar place beach nourishment" I think on balance it is (I only have to be 51% sure and 49% unsure to tip the balance)

hoser expat

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

Exactly and sitting back and doing nothing is really not an option when large chunks of the coastline are being lost forever.
A study is needed now, by impartial professionals into what needs to be done to stem the erosion.

The issue of landfill falling into the sea and polluting it should also be of great concern, but as has been mentioned above it would seem the style of bollards is more important to some.
I have images of landfill falling into the sea at Bray and John has images of building materials falling into the sea at Greystones, the connection...WCC funnily enough.

The distance apart is some 6KM if that, the famous Chesil Beach in the UK is some 18 miles long, so don't give me the "it's Bray and not Greystones" chat as mother nature does not recognise town boundaries.

Chesil Beach - natural grading of coastline - proof.

The changes to erosion and deposition seen in the vicinity (north and south beach) of the new harbour development in Greystones (yes, I live in Greystones) I would strongly buy as being a direct impact of the harbour.

Linking the harbour to erosion in Bray I just don't see, especially with the massive Bray Head (bedrock) being in the way. Erosion in Greystones leading to deposition in Bray is far more likely, depending on longshore currents (which I haven't researched). If there is erosion in Bray at the same time as erosion in Greystones, my first thought would to suggest some external (not harbour development) cause such as increased storminess especially during high tide periods. Coastal erosion is a natural process!

Just some educated opinions, but of course as a scientist I'd rather take a much more detailed survey before attributing blame.

hoser expat
PhD Geomorphology
Associate Professor of Geology (formerly in the USA)

LifeBeginsAt40

Just some educated opinions, but of course as a scientist I'd rather take a much more detailed survey before attributing blame.

The underlying point is, in my opinion, that coastal erosion does of course occur naturally but it certainly is not stemmed in rate by half finished coastal developments in the close vicinity.

You cannot deny that Bray to Greystones is close as far as mother nature is concerned.

So ignoring for the time being the issues in Bray, should we not all be banging on the door of WCC and the various maritime agencies (if they exist -pardon my ignorance but am new (ish) to these shores) and demanding at least proof of any studies into the projected erosion and remedial actions to be taken.

A quick summary:

1. Ignore the erosion at Bray (that's their problem!)
2. Demand action to stem the Greystones erosion before the winter storms return
3. Worry less about bollards and more about meters or fencing that will pollute the sea very soon!