Sean Quinn blames Anglo Irish for his woes.

Delancey

Unbelievable listening to the nonsense coming from the High Court where Sean Quinn is tearfully maintaining that Anglo ruined him and his businesses.
Am I the only person who actually thinks Quinns sheer greed was his downfall and not a badly-run bank ?

NIMAN

+1.

wasn't happy being a billionaire, wanted more.

UDAWINNER

No danger of him or his family being broke anytime soon. Typical Ireland, one of the elite gambles and loses and the taxpayer picks up the tab.While ordinary people are struggling to pay their bills and put food on the table.
He is to blame for his downfall but gets away with it because he hired a few thousand people which he did to further enhance his wealth not because he was a samaritan. (only have to look at the people and the politicians from all parties marching to support him a while ago)
Greedy cnut

AlmightyCushion

UDAWINNER wrote: »

No danger of him or his family being broke anytime soon. Typical Ireland, one of the elite gambles and loses and the taxpayer picks up the tab.While ordinary people are struggling to pay their bills and put food on the table.
He is to blame for his downfall but gets away with it because he hired a few thousand people which he did to further enhance his wealth not because he was a samaritan. (only have to look at the people and the politicians from all parties marching to support him a while ago)
Greedy cnut

Isn't that why he's in court at the moment, because the IRBC are trying to get back all the assets he transferred to his family and friends. The court hasn't ruled in anyone's favour yet so he could still be found guilty.

Delancey

Delancey wrote: »

Unbelievable listening to the nonsense coming from the High Court where Sean Quinn is tearfully maintaining that Anglo ruined him and his businesses.
Am I the only person who actually thinks Quinns sheer greed was his downfall and not a badly-run bank ?

Its like blaming the barman if you cant handle your beer really.

Sure Anglo are scum, but i can bet you he seen Seany Fitz and co in a different light when he was making money on huge loans he couldnt pay back for when the rainy day came

K-9

It appears at times everybody else does so why not?

Dannyboy83

Yes, he was greedy, and ambitious and a risk taker but successful business people generally are. He wouldn't have got to where he was without those characteristics.

Badly run bank is a vast understatement to be honest. This is an institution which has single handedly damaged the entire nation's livings standards, every man, woman and child, well into the future.

I think it's a somewhat fair comment on his behalf, if you recall the Celtic Tiger as it happened, and not in hindsight.
Most of his other businesses seem to have been well run and have been bought up.
Quinn Car Insurance was bought up by Liberty Insurance
Quinn Healthcare was bought up by Elips Insurance.


Anglo were the modern day Irish equivalent of Enron. No different than Bernie Madoff in hindsight. Loads of people got burned by Enron and they passed Sarbanes-Oxley.
You wouldn't buy into Enron if you knew it was a sham.
[sarcam] Luckily we had a regulator to ensure another Enron would never happen [/sarcasm]
Even when Morgan Kelly was on Prime Time warning of impending doom, the financial regulator was still insisting that everything was fine.

Open to correction on this, but I understand he had Anglo investigated before investing his money, and received very positive feedback.

He certainly did screw up, but there is no denying the Irish government/Financial regulator are equally to blame... not that anyone is going to be punished for it, lol...

Perhaps his anger is misplaced - it should be aimed at the Irish government more than Anglo themselves.

Then there seems to be a whole array of stuff we are only finding out about now - e.g. after the sh1t had hit the fan, he was warned not to dump his shares for fear he would de-stabilize the bank. It's been reported that David Drumm was behind this, but perhaps Cowen or the regulator were too? Remains to be seen I guess.

Dannyboy83

Deleted User wrote: »

Its like blaming the barman if you cant handle your beer really.

It's more like the barman telling you that the beer is fit for consumption,
and the Health and Safety Inspector assuring you the beer is fit for consumption,
and then after you've consumed it
- and lost your liver and kidneys -
you find out it was actually methylated spirits,
and the health and safety inspector doesn't even know what alcohol is,
and the barman wasn't actually an internationally braumeister but a confidence trickster who should have never been allowed to have an alcohol license.

RichardAnd

I agree with Dannyboy. Sean Quinn saw an opportunity to make money and like and successful business man, weighed it up and took a risk. As it transpired, that risk results in a disaster but he could only act on what he knew at the time. It's a fine thing to look back now and call him a greedy c**t but no company ever got anywhere by letting opportunity pass by.

What he has done since his company went to hell is questionable but put yourself in his shoes when he made his deal with Anglo and consider what you would have done without hindsight. Would you have done the same?

As for Anglo, they are not a bad bank nor are they a bunch of cowboys. These labels simply do not capture the magnitude of what Anglo Irish Bank represents. To me, it seems that some deity selected a coterie of the most perfidious, base and reckless specimens of humanity and gave them a a bank to run. Anglo is, quite simply, a blight on this island that will haunt us for many years to come.

In another age, the inner circle of that bank would have found themselves on a scaffold and whilst I've no doubt that the blame for this mess can not be laid solely at their feet I can think of no better place to start if ever justice is to be done. Personally, I don't think any proverbial heads will adorn a spike any time soon.

K-9

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Yes, he was greedy, and ambitious and a risk taker but successful business people generally are. He wouldn't have got to where he was without those characteristics.

Interesting assessment, combine it with greedy bankers and we'd need some regulators.

Delancey

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It's more like the barman telling you that the beer is fit for consumption,
and the Health and Safety Inspector assuring you the beer is fit for consumption,
and then after you've consumed it
- and lost your liver and kidneys -
you find out it was actually methylated spirits,
and the health and safety inspector doesn't even know what alcohol is,
and the barman wasn't actually an internationally braumeister but a confidence trickster who should have never been allowed to have an alcohol license.

.....and perhaps the fact that you drank 25 pints of the stuff may have also played a small part ?
Quinn was greedy , super rich but had to screw another profit for himself.

Dannyboy83

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Yes, he was greedy, and ambitious and a risk taker but successful business people generally are. He wouldn't have got to where he was without those characteristics.

Sean Quinn is no hero do not get me started on the state sponsored oligopoly of insurance business. After all the corruption that has gone on in our country we should be looking there too. Pity alot of the corruption is institutionalized and legalized.

Dannyboy83

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It's more like the barman telling you that the beer is fit for consumption,
and the Health and Safety Inspector assuring you the beer is fit for consumption,
and then after you've consumed it
- and lost your liver and kidneys -
you find out it was actually methylated spirits,
and the health and safety inspector doesn't even know what alcohol is,
and the barman wasn't actually an internationally braumeister but a confidence trickster who should have never been allowed to have an alcohol license.

no its not, its more like he bought so much drink he owned the brewery

liammur

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Yes, he was greedy, and ambitious and a risk taker but successful business people generally are. He wouldn't have got to where he was without those characteristics.

Badly run bank is a vast understatement to be honest. This is an institution which has single handedly damaged the entire nation's livings standards, every man, woman and child, well into the future.

I think it's a somewhat fair comment on his behalf, if you recall the Celtic Tiger as it happened, and not in hindsight.
Most of his other businesses seem to have been well run and have been bought up.
Quinn Car Insurance was bought up by Liberty Insurance
Quinn Healthcare was bought up by Elips Insurance.


Anglo were the modern day Irish equivalent of Enron. No different than Bernie Madoff in hindsight. Loads of people got burned by Enron and they passed Sarbanes-Oxley.
You wouldn't buy into Enron if you knew it was a sham.
[sarcam] Luckily we had a regulator to ensure another Enron would never happen [/sarcasm]
Even when Morgan Kelly was on Prime Time warning of impending doom, the financial regulator was still insisting that everything was fine.

Open to correction on this, but I understand he had Anglo investigated before investing his money, and received very positive feedback.

He certainly did screw up, but there is no denying the Irish government/Financial regulator are equally to blame... not that anyone is going to be punished for it, lol...

Perhaps his anger is misplaced - it should be aimed at the Irish government more than Anglo themselves.

Then there seems to be a whole array of stuff we are only finding out about now - e.g. after the sh1t had hit the fan, he was warned not to dump his shares for fear he would de-stabilize the bank. It's been reported that David Drumm was behind this, but perhaps Cowen or the regulator were too? Remains to be seen I guess.

S Quinn unwittingly led to the collapse of Anglo. He bought shares with cash, this was fine. However, he also took out a big leveraged position through a product called a CFD. He didn't have the money to meet the margin calls in worst case scenario, which of course happened. furthermore, by law, you have to inform regulators of your positions if it crosses a certain %, he didn't do this either. So he over exposed Anglo to speculators, and effectively got the snowball rolling.
So yes, it was greed (CFD position) that led to his downfall.

hunglikeaflee

liammur wrote: »

S Quinn unwittingly led to the collapse of Anglo. He bought shares with cash, this was fine. However, he also took out a big leveraged position through a product called a CFD. He didn't have the money to meet the margin calls in worst case scenario, which of course happened. furthermore, by law, you have to inform regulators of your positions if it crosses a certain %, he didn't do this either. So he over exposed Anglo to speculators, and effectively got the snowball rolling.
So yes, it was greed (CFD position) that led to his downfall.

Great point,

He like all the other fat cats are what brought this country down in what they did while times were good, line their own pockets and now the rest of us suffer.

I bet would have no problem paying the €100 household charge while thousands around the country do, yet he is the one that owes billions.

Farmer Pudsey

liammur wrote: »

S Quinn unwittingly led to the collapse of Anglo. He bought shares with cash, this was fine. However, he also took out a big leveraged position through a product called a CFD. He didn't have the money to meet the margin calls in worst case scenario, which of course happened. furthermore, by law, you have to inform regulators of your positions if it crosses a certain %, he didn't do this either. So he over exposed Anglo to speculators, and effectively got the snowball rolling.
So yes, it was greed (CFD position) that led to his downfall.

If Anglo had not got fundmental problems what Quinn owning shares would not have been an issue. The reality is senior management colluded to hide loans to directors, use short term funding to lend long term loans etc so it would have collapsed any way. This is the Denis O'Brien argument and we know his form.

Nobody had CFD positions in AIB and IL&P and their share price collapsed as well. The Irish Central Bank and Finiancal Regulator were asleep at there desks remember the memo 'wear the green shirt'.

He was not legally obliged to notify anybody about CFD positions it is a loophole that was in use at the time.

What he is doing now is the same as what a lot of other very wealthy people are doing to try to hold onto there money. Do I agree with it no, if I was in his stiutation would you or I do it, probally.

Look at the solicitor who had the house in Gorse Hill and other property abroad signed over in trust to his kid's and owes 70 million to is it AIB.

David Drum in the USA seeking Bankrupty where is Sean Dunne. Richard Barrett and Johnny Ronan using the courts to fustrate NAMA.
At least Quinn was producing something and had through hard work and vision had build up a stable of profitable companies who employed a lot of people the border midland area.

liammur

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If Anglo had not got fundmental problems what Quinn owning shares would not have been an issue. The reality is senior management colluded to hide loans to directors, use short term funding to lend long term loans etc so it would have collapsed any way. This is the Denis O'Brien argument and we know his form.

Nobody had CFD positions in AIB and IL&P and their share price collapsed as well. The Irish Central Bank and Finiancal Regulator were asleep at there desks remember the memo 'wear the green shirt'.

He was not legally obliged to notify anybody about CFD positions it is a loophole that was in use at the time.

What he is doing now is the same as what a lot of other very wealthy people are doing to try to hold onto there money. Do I agree with it no, if I was in his stiutation would you or I do it, probally.

Look at the solicitor who had the house in Gorse Hill and other property abroad signed over in trust to his kid's and owes 70 million to is it AIB.

David Drum in the USA seeking Bankrupty where is Sean Dunne. Richard Barrett and Johnny Ronan using the courts to fustrate NAMA.
At least Quinn was producing something and had through hard work and vision had build up a stable of profitable companies who employed a lot of people the border midland area.

Between his shares and CFDs Quinn had around 28%. By law, you have to declare your position. He didn't fully disclose the amount he held.
In market turmoil, if 28% of a company has to be suddenly offloaded, it will inevitably cause the price to crash and spread panic everywhere else.
As regards IL&P, that share held up until the government nationalised it out of the blue. No one is saying Anglo or AIB would have survived, but he certainly didn't help.

I also see where he is coming from. For instance, Larry Goodman was bust, he got bailed out by the FF government at the time, and now he is 1 of the richest men in the country.

Farmer Pudsey

liammur wrote: »

Between his shares and CFDs Quinn had around 28%. By law, you have to declare your position. He didn't fully disclose the amount he held.
In market turmoil, if 28% of a company has to be suddenly offloaded, it will inevitably cause the price to crash and spread panic everywhere else.
As regards IL&P, that share held up until the government nationalised it out of the blue. No one is saying Anglo or AIB would have survived, but he certainly didn't help.

I also see where he is coming from. For instance, Larry Goodman was bust, he got bailed out by the FF government at the time, and now he is 1 of the richest men in the country.

As far as I know at the time it was only shares you owned that mattered, if you own over 2% you have to notify the company he own'd about 8% and the company knew about this but he had CFD on about 20% which there was no need to notify about I may be wrong if so I stand to be corrected.

liammur

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

As far as I know at the time it was only shares you owned that mattered, if you own over 2% you have to notify the company he own'd about 8% and the company knew about this but he had CFD on about 20% which there was no need to notify about I may be wrong if so I stand to be corrected.

I would say Anglo are coming down on Quinn harder than others, and could have done things differently, but Quinn clearly should have informed them of his huge stake, I believe it was 25% overall.

You can have a read of it here, i've copied the bit about disclosure:

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/library/communication/pr/2007/114.shtml

The first approach would strengthen the current disclosure regime by requiring a disclosure of any CfDs written in reference to 3% or more of total voting rights

jmayo

Isn't it marvellous how fooking gullible the paddies are. :rolleyes:

We have a number of posters on here excusing quinn and trying to dump the blame for his gambling onto the bank executives, the regulators and the government.
Anybody but him.

Yet in the same posts people make reference to what a talented businessmen quinn was.
Yes quinn didn't build a business empire without being shrew.
Well if he was so smart how come a few bankers pulled the wool over his eyes ?
And if he cut corners and pull strokes like he did with his insurance company you can be assured it wasn't the first time.

It is fooking disgusting reading some of the comments which are making quinn out to be some sort of victim in this.
Shame on the people who pedal this sh**e.

quinn gambled on CFDs in Anglo and he lost when the share price collapsed because the markets twigged, what quinn most surely have known, that Anglo was built on massive lending to our property bubble.

quinn lost, but he and his family have tried to find ways of refusing to repay their debts which are hung like an anchor around the taxpayers of this country.

You would swear that he just gave money away to all those who were employed by him
Did he demand they work for the money ?
Great he created some jobs but so did seanie fitz, but I don't see anyone on here luading about how many jobs he created in Anglo. :rolleyes:

As long as some people have a hole in their ar** and make excuses for all the cute hoors done well who it eventually turns out have their hands in our pockets, this country will be fooked.:mad:

Laminations

Quinn is a liar and hopefully spends a nice stretch in jail. He took a bet and he lost, now he is blaming anyone but himself and is refusing to pay up. Himself and his wife are making out as if they are some naive thicko country folk who aren't used to or capable of dealing with business people or bankers - this was the richest fella in the country. She was director of dozens of companies but shure she just signed what was put in front of her and now we are to believe he did too?

The three deny contempt of court orders of June and July 2011 restraining dissipation of assets in the Quinn international property group (IPG).

Yet

When Mr Gallagher said Mr Quinn's children must have explained to him what was in documents he was asked to sign related to various IPG companies, he said his ambition was to get assets "out of the name of this reckless bank" that had "destroyed" him and his companies.
"I didn't care how they did it," he said.

But of course he plays dumb

Today, Mr Quinn said he knew nothing about the administration of the companies in the IPG but left that to his children, in-laws and about 20 to 30 accountants. He had no interest and his job was making money, he said.

source

Settle your debts please.

He said the bank was doing everything in its power to try to destroy him and his family.
Mr Quinn said there had been 30 years of war in the border counties and there had never been any trouble in Derrylin until Anglo came in.
This had never happened in the history of the State where someone comes in to “rape” your company, he said.

source

He really is in complete denial. Total cognitive dissonance. He takes no responsibility for his huge gamble. HE destroyed his family and his company. Did the trouble brought by Anglo start when they were lending him millions to expand or only start when they came looking for the money they were owed?


PIG

creedp

I remember reading a 2 page spread on an interview he did with the Sindo a few years back which, as only the Sindo can do it, outlined in fantastic detail his entrepreneurial skill and his ability to take risks and win. Most clearly I remember vividly his answer to a question about how he decides where to invest his money .. he said he or his companies never undertook a feasibility study on any decison to invest as it was all done on gut instinct. Unfortunately that the problem with gut instinct .. it can go spectacularly wrong (not that feasibility studies always come up with the right answer!) I think it showed at the time how he was becoming overly arrogant and unfortunately for the country pride came before a serious in his case. I also thought it was telling how he reacted when it all went wrong .. he complained that no Minister would take his calls! One wonders how the fact that previously they were at his beck and call contributed to the enormity of the problem.

Laminations

ANY LOSS to the Irish taxpayer as a result of the Quinn family moving valuable property assets beyond the reach of Anglo Irish bank is “Mickey Mouse” compared to the €5 billion loss to the taxpayer as a result of the bank’s “rape” of the Quinn group,

Ah that's grand, I won't pay any tax or charges as that's all 'Mickey Mouse' compared to your debt of millions.

Seán Quinn has told the High Court.
Mr Quinn said a very good business built up by him over decades was destroyed after he got involved with Anglo, which has “wrecked” Ireland, “bullied me out of office” and “made me a criminal in Irish society”.

source

This is the only recognition of his active role, his choice to get into bed with Anglo (and I think it's the phrasing of the journalist). Most of us made no such deal with Anglo, never borrowed from them or had shares and we are footing the bill - Quinn chose to do business with them, there were countless other domestic and international banks, he got involved with Anglo, presumably because he saw it as best returns or for some other self-interested reason.


I'm really dismayed the media aren't destroying him and the sh1te he is spewing in court - his ability to spin a good yarn is comparable to Ahern.


And yes there are many other high profile cases who all made moves to put their assets out of reach and shirk their debts - that's why when people blame the entire country for the mess (and their is collective blame) I really feel the need to redirect them to the 2000 high net worth individuals/companies in NAMA and how things would be made easier for us all if these folk met their responsibilities head on rather than trying to frustrate the process of debt recovery.

Farmer Pudsey

[QUOTE=

I'm really dismayed the media aren't destroying him and the sh1te he is spewing in court - his ability to spin a good yarn is comparable to Ahern.


And yes there are many other high profile cases who all made moves to put their assets out of reach and shirk their debts - that's why when people blame the entire country for the mess (and their is collective blame) I really feel the need to redirect them to the 2000 high net worth individuals/companies in NAMA and how things would be made easier for us all if these folk met their responsibilities head on rather than trying to frustrate the process of debt recovery.[/QUOTE]

I do not think he is getting any favours from the media and while I have little sympathy for him I also relise it suits the D4 brigade that he takes all the flack. I do not see FG pushing Denis O'brien aside rather they are cosy up to him and doing everything possible to help him control the Indo group.

I agree with you about the 2000 high net worth inviduals but I am also a realist and relise that after four year's nobody has as much as got there collor felt by the guards in a serious way not to mind going to jail. So now I am of the opinion that if he gets away with it fair play to him.

I see people with mortgages being cruified and I think if they had any sence they would hand back the keys. None of this will be sorted out until ordinary people cop themselves on and refuse to pay new taxes such as water charges, household charges and vote no the end of May to the Fiscal Compact. When FF, FG and Labour come to your door over the next month tell them where to get off and tell them you intend to vote Independant and SF ( Even though its turns my stomach) in the next local Elections. We have to stop worring about the conquences that the politians tell us will happen because we know that they are all liars

If it was 50 years ago we would have a revolution on a Monday morning and on Tuesday morning the 2000 would be first up against the wall.

Laminations

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

So now I am of the opinion that if he gets away with it fair play to him.

I see people with mortgages being cruified and I think if they had any sence they would hand back the keys. None of this will be sorted out until ordinary people cop themselves on and refuse to pay new taxes such as water charges, household charges and vote no the end of May to the Fiscal Compact.

The more people there are who think like you, the more fvcked we are - the more fvcked we are, the more people think like you. I wonder which came first, did the attitude of me feinism precipitate the bust or did the bust make people ask 'why should I pay'. But yes non-compliance with taxes has really worked out for the Greeks... (sarcasm smiley)

Like jmayo says 'As long as some people have a hole in their ar** and make excuses for all the cute hoors done well who it eventually turns out have their hands in our pockets, this country will be fooked.'

Me criticising Quinn is not me exonerating or ignoring Fitzpatrick, Quinlan, Drumm, Dunne, Lynn etc.

serfboard

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

He was not legally obliged to notify anybody about CFD positions it is a loophole that was in use at the time.

That's the reason he went with CFD at the time - he didn't want anyone knowing what he was up to. It would have been public knowledge if he bought shares in the conventional way.

Laminations wrote: »

Himself and his wife are making out as if they are some naive thicko country folk who aren't used to or capable of dealing with business people or bankers

This is the most laughable or puke-inducing part of the campaign that he is at now.

The Irish Times wrote:

Mr Quinn told Mr Justice Peter Kelly he was “a simple farmer’s son”

What a crock. But today's testimony really takes the biscuit.

RT&#233 wrote:

The businessman agreed he had acknowledged that he owed €455m to Anglo Irish Bank, which had been advanced for the purposes of the international property portfolio.

Lawyers for Irish Banking Resolution Corporation (formerly Anglo Irish Bank) said he had acted to remove from the international companies the ability to pay back the money.

Mr Quinn agreed it was correct that he and his family had been trying to ensure money owing in relation to these investments would not be available to repay Anglo.

The defendant said he did not know the details of a plan to sell international assets to third parties who would then sell them on to offshore companies controlled by the Quinn family. He said he had no idea about this.

Mr Quinn said his ambition was to get the assets out of the grip of a reckless bank which had destroyed him and his company. He said he didn't care how his family did it.

This really is breathtaking.

To be a little bit balanced, he probably is a simple farmer's son who was just about able to understand quarrying (business model - "you take a load of stuff from here and move it over there"), but hadn't a clue about insurance (he didn't realise, or chose to ignore that you must have a certain amount of reserves in case people make claims - unless of course he didn't intend to pay out the claims?). He definitely didn't have a clue about finance, and was exposed for the thicko he is by the sharp-suited "fellas from Double-In" who sold him a pup that he foolishly bought. He is now angry at Anglo for doing it, but you'd have to think he is even more angry at himself for being taken for a ride by a couple of spivs (Fitzy and Drumm).

Laminations

Yeah the bolded parts from the RTE quote should be case closed - he and his family had been trying to ensure money owing in relation to these investments would not be available to repay Anglo. Contempt of court - go to jail

liammur

serfboard wrote: »

That's the reason he went with CFD at the time - he didn't want anyone knowing what he was up to. It would have been public knowledge if he bought shares in the conventional way.

.

Incorrect.

The reason he went with the CFDs is: you only have to put up a very small % of the money.
If want to take a €1m CFD on a company, I only have to put €100K upfront.

tara73

jmayo wrote: »

Isn't it marvellous how fooking gullible the paddies are. :rolleyes:

We have a number of posters on here excusing quinn and trying to dump the blame for his gambling onto the bank executives, the regulators and the government.
Anybody but him.

Yet in the same posts people make reference to what a talented businessmen quinn was.
Yes quinn didn't build a business empire without being shrew.
Well if he was so smart how come a few bankers pulled the wool over his eyes ?
And if he cut corners and pull strokes like he did with his insurance company you can be assured it wasn't the first time.

It is fooking disgusting reading some of the comments which are making quinn out to be some sort of victim in this.
Shame on the people who pedal this sh**e.

quinn gambled on CFDs in Anglo and he lost when the share price collapsed because the markets twigged, what quinn most surely have known, that Anglo was built on massive lending to our property bubble.

quinn lost, but he and his family have tried to find ways of refusing to repay their debts which are hung like an anchor around the taxpayers of this country.

You would swear that he just gave money away to all those who were employed by him
Did he demand they work for the money ?
Great he created some jobs but so did seanie fitz, but I don't see anyone on here luading about how many jobs he created in Anglo. :rolleyes:

As long as some people have a hole in their ar** and make excuses for all the cute hoors done well who it eventually turns out have their hands in our pockets, this country will be fooked.:mad:

+1
wanted to post something but this says it all

tommyboy2222

Most of his other businesses seem to have been well run and have been bought up.
Quinn Car Insurance was bought up by Liberty Insurance

Quinn Insurance was not well run. He employed no actuaries.
He ignored reserving requirements.

When Liberty Insurance bought Quinn Insurance they refused to take on the 600,000,000 in debts that QI had. This is now being paid by the Irish public in the form of an additional 2% Government Levy on all General insurance policies .

So currently this cute hoor has run up a bill of 2.8 billion from Anglo and 600 million from QI that is being paid by us.

Some businessman eh ? :rolleyes:

Dannyboy83

I realise it's an emotive topic, actually it reminds me of King Lear.

Pease suspend your emotions and try to think rationally for a second tho:
Was Anglo Irish
A) a well run institution and did the regulator perform his role adequately?
Or
was Anglo Irish a terribly run institution and the regulator did not perform his role adequately?

In every other topic on this forum for the last several years, it has been B.
And there is a criminal investigation ongoing.

Regardless of how much you may dislike Sean Quinn, or are repulsed by his greed, it doesn't suddenly become A for this sole topic.

As I said in my opening post

He certainly did screw up, but there is no denying the Irish government/Financial regulator are equally to blame...

Bear in mind, Enron investors achieved the largest settlement in the history of U.S. securities fraud cases.

Delancey

No one can deny Anglo was appallingly managed and the regulator was a disaster.
But nobody put a gun to Quinns head and made him borrow - the garbage coming out of his mouth in the High Court is staggering.

Dannyboy83

Delancey wrote: »

the garbage coming out of his mouth in the High Court is staggering.

I wouldn't dispute that, acts of desperation which seem almost incongruous after the Celtic Tiger years.
The "swap a €400 laptop for a €10m company" stuff was when it passed from tragedy to comedy.

And I'm sure it will become even more dramatic if criminal prosecutions result from the Anglo investigation.

I only wish Bertie and the regulator could be made to account in the same way.

Farmer Pudsey

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

And I'm sure it will become even more dramatic if criminal prosecutions result from the Anglo investigation.

I only wish Bertie and the regulator could be made to account in the same way.

Ireland does not do dramatic where white collor crime is involved
Let's see who went to jail
Charlie Haughey
Micheal Lowry
Denis O'Brien
George Redmond
The Bailey Brother's
Ray Bourke (four and a half years sorry I'm wrong months)
Liam Lawlor ( 6 years sorry I wrong again weeks for contemp of court)
Frank Dunlop ( 14 months becaused he squeled)
B ,B, B, Be, Be, Bertie Ahern
Pee Flynn
Beverly Cooper Flynn
Joseph Murphy
National Irish Bank executives
GV Wright
Liam T Cosgrave

I am right all these people went to jail and

Seanie, Finger's David and the rest will as well

I am looking out the window two pigs are flying past a Blue Moon
I am going for a whif of coffee to wake me up

K-9

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I realise it's an emotive topic, actually it reminds me of King Lear.

Pease suspend your emotions and try to think rationally for a second tho:
Was Anglo Irish
A) a well run institution and did the regulator perform his role adequately?
Or
was Anglo Irish a terribly run institution and the regulator did not perform his role adequately?

In every other topic on this forum for the last several years, it has been B.
And there is a criminal investigation ongoing.

Regardless of how much you may dislike Sean Quinn, or are repulsed by his greed, it doesn't suddenly become A for this sole topic.

As I said in my opening post


Bear in mind, Enron investors achieved the largest settlement in the history of U.S. securities fraud cases.

I see your point. Was watching Question Time tonight and somebody made the point that greed and stupidity was to blame just as much as the regulator etc. in Britain.

Anglo were guilty of greed and stupidity as were many customers including Quinn.

We should punish everybody involved to learn something, seems we are going down the punish nobody line, other than the money lost.

jmayo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I realise it's an emotive topic, actually it reminds me of King Lear.

Pease suspend your emotions and try to think rationally for a second tho:
Was Anglo Irish
A) a well run institution and did the regulator perform his role adequately?
Or
was Anglo Irish a terribly run institution and the regulator did not perform his role adequately?

In every other topic on this forum for the last several years, it has been B.
And there is a criminal investigation ongoing.

Regardless of how much you may dislike Sean Quinn, or are repulsed by his greed, it doesn't suddenly become A for this sole topic.

As I said in my opening post


Bear in mind, Enron investors achieved the largest settlement in the history of U.S. securities fraud cases.

Ever hear the expression "It takes two to tango".
Anglo was a cesspit and it was apparently obvious that they were playing hard, loose and fast in order to become as big as they were.
It was also pretty evident that they were growing just by investing and lending into the Irish property game.

And what did quinn do, but decide to join them.
Please don't tell me that it was all seanie fitz and david drumm"er boy" together with the conivance at worst or indifference at best of the Dept of finance, government, IFRSA/CB, Director for Corporate Enforcement, Companies Office, etc ?

quinn wanted to get a big stake in a bank, make his empire even bigger and he was using CFDs as a means to achieve that.
Anglo were complicit in facilitating his aims by lending him crazy money and then lending another tranch of their well heeled connected clientele even more money to try and bail out his position and the share price.

quinn was to his neck in this and now he wants to welch on his bets.
I couldn't give a fook if he was greedy.
A lot of major entrenpreneurs are.
There is often a hint of jealousy being mentioned as a reason why people are against him.
What a crock of sh**.

What I do give a fook about is the fact that he gambled and lost, but yet he refuses to make good on the losses that he is prepared to foist on the ordinary people of this state.
Shame on him.
He and his family are lowlifes to try and pull that cr*p and they should be treated as such.

I don't know what is worst, the fact that we have him and his family blaming each other, the bank, the regulators, and trying to convince everyone they are fooking country bumkins who happened to have created an international multibillion euro empire or the fact that some fooking eejits in this country are buying the above sh**e and making excuses for his and his families downright contempt for the Irish taxpayers.

When the fook are Irish people going to wise up and realise that lauding cute hoorism will cost us all in the end.

In any other country he and all the other connected cute hoors would be running to jail in fear of a lynch mob.
Here in good old Ireland of the cute hoors, nod nod and wink wink he is pitied and even supported, yet he owes the Irish taxpayers billions.

I fooking dispair and even though usually stridently anti federalist Europe I sometimes think maybe we might be a hell of a lot better off if our country was once again entirely ruled by outsiders who might at least have somewhat of an adult mindset.

Welease

K-9 wrote: »

I see your point. Was watching Question Time tonight and somebody made the point that greed and stupidity was to blame just as much as the regulator etc. in Britain.

Anglo were guilty of greed and stupidity as were many customers including Quinn.

We should punish everybody involved to learn something, seems we are going down the punish nobody line, other than the money lost.

But its important (not that you are stating otherwise) to remember that you can only punish where laws have been broken.
If greed and stupidity were enough to convict then a large amount "normal" people who speculated on or bought properties would be guilty of same.

liammur

Welease wrote: »

But its important (not that you are stating otherwise) to remember that you can only punish where laws have been broken.
If greed and stupidity were enough to convict then a large amount "normal" people who speculated on or bought properties would be guilty of same.

Correct.

Anglo though were guilty of more. Misled shareholders.

K-9

liammur wrote: »

Correct.

Anglo though were guilty of more. Misled shareholders.

Did they actually mislead. I remember reading a piece in early 07 about their latest bonanza profits and it pointed out 90% of its loans were in property. I know we can point to how the bank was run but there was plenty of signs that this bank wasn't a good bet before Quinn and the CFD's.

creedp

K-9 wrote: »

Did they actually mislead. I remember reading a piece in early 07 about their latest bonanza profits and it pointed out 90% of its loans were in property. I know we can point to how the bank was run but there was plenty of signs that this bank wasn't a good bet before Quinn and the CFD's.

I was talking to a person who worked in commercial lending in BOI and during the boom Anglo years he was constantly listening to business people threatening to go to Anglo if BOI wouldn't approve their loans even though he said that the business case for the loans just didn't stack up. So it was commonly known that Anglo was involved in risk lending during this time and they were storing up trouble in the event of an economic shock. Problem was that AIB and latterly BOI took the crazy decision to compete with Anglo in this kamikaze lending policy to try and maintain market share and unfortunately all 3 got burnt. Luckly for BOI they came to the party a bit later and consequently got off a bit lighter.

Dannyboy83

K-9 wrote: »

Did they actually mislead.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gaybo-says-anglo-shareholders-relied-on-assurances-from-board-2644495.html
Earlier this week, it was confirmed in the Commercial Court that Anglo is being investigated for potential breaches of the 2007 Transparency Regulations.

The regulations provide a right of compensation for the publication of false or misleading statements and could result in Anglo being liable to pay damages if it is found to have issued misleading public statements.

Anglo is being investigated by five separate bodies.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/anglo-investors-may-sue-over-massive-losses-3088245.html
About 300 investors in a property fund set up by Anglo Irish Bank have been told their investment of €173m in a vast property portfolio has collapsed in value by 79 per cent.

The dramatic collapse, which could fall even further, has caused a group of about 50 investors to team up and appoint LKG Solicitors to represent them in an attempt to prove that the investment was mis-sold to them.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/drumm-faces-joint-legal-action-by-exanglo-investors-2658220.html
DISGRACED former Anglo Irish Bank CEO David Drumm is facing a bill of up to €500,000 if a group of former shareholders successfully sue him.

Two solicitors are among those preparing cases against Mr Drumm because he signed off on allegedly fraudulent annual accounts while an Anglo director.

SHAREHOLDERS of Anglo Irish Bank are attempting to sue the bank and its senior management over concealment of loans and the dramatic collapse in its share price.
Irish Nationwide Building Society is also being sued, along with its auditors KPMG and Ernst & Young, Anglo Irish Bank’s auditors.


Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/story/Ireland/idcwojgbmh/rss2/#ixzz1tudS3VaK

There is a veritable ****storm of lawsuits pending.
I think the criminal investigation must be concluded first before pandora's box is opened.

Mr.Micro

Delancey wrote: »

No one can deny Anglo was appallingly managed and the regulator was a disaster.
But nobody put a gun to Quinns head and made him borrow - the garbage coming out of his mouth in the High Court is staggering.

Can one believe that this man was (is ??) a multimillionaire, and head of the Quinn group? Not with the childish rubbish that he utters, more like a petulant brat aged 10. The argument from him some months ago was the he cannot pay back the €3 billion, as the banks should have never loaned it to him..... that is so mature. Another time we had the wife saying she knows nothing about business, and had no idea what she was signing. I cannot believe that the High Court tolerates his idiotic bleatings and poor Sean Quinn,.... F***ed over by everyone, the poor innocent lamb.

Bankrupt businessman Seán Quinn said he was unaware of the corporate structures set up to hold international property assets for his children.The High Court heard this was despite the fact that he swore a document during his bankruptcy proceedings in Northern Ireland outlining those structures.

http://www.nuacht.ie/news/2012/0503/sean-quinn-denies-knowing-corporate-structures.html

scholar007

Arra musha poor aul Seaneen and shure wasnt the wife only cooking his dinner and ironing his shirts and the only gambling Seaneen ever did was 20cents on a hand of cards in his local of an evening.....:rolleyes:

Icepick

Quinns' lawyers are having a laugh. This defence did not work for his wife so why does he think it will for him?

Mr.Micro

Icepick wrote: »

Quinns' lawyers are having a laugh. This defence did not work for his wife so why does he think it will for him?

Indeed. He does not have a defence it looks like, so try the old codswallop. He appears to have a different hat on, (Mr Passive benign) for the high court in Ireland and another for the one in Belfast, ( Mr active boss, on the ball).

liammur

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

There is a veritable ****storm of lawsuits pending.
I think the criminal investigation must be concluded first before pandora's box is opened.

Also, we had Fitzpatrick was moving out loans of almost €100 mln immediately after accounts were published.
Then we had the infamous €7bln IL&P transaction.

All in all, it was 1 rotten bank, along with EBS.

Pal

watched Spotlight last night.
Hadn't paid too much attention to this case so far.
Probably because I have no confidence anything gets done in this country.
Gobsmacked by what they showed.
Not happy. And still think that these guys will get away with it.

Unrealistic

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I realise it's an emotive topic, actually it reminds me of King Lear.

Pease suspend your emotions and try to think rationally for a second tho:
Was Anglo Irish
A) a well run institution and did the regulator perform his role adequately?
Or
was Anglo Irish a terribly run institution and the regulator did not perform his role adequately?

In every other topic on this forum for the last several years, it has been B.
And there is a criminal investigation ongoing.

Regardless of how much you may dislike Sean Quinn, or are repulsed by his greed, it doesn't suddenly become A for this sole topic.

To a large extent this is irrelevant. Separate from the borrowing related to Anglo share purchases Quinn also borrowed €600m which he acknowledges were legitimate loans to fund his property investments. In reality this is about the maximum sum we could hope to get back from him anyway based on the assets he has left but he is trying to welch on this as well, moving those very assets which were funded by the loans he took beyond the reach of IBRC. He deserves no sympathy, only contempt.

Delancey

The Spotlight programme was a real eye-opener to the steps being taken to frustrate efforts to seize assets - I await the High Court decision with interest.

Sponge Bob

In all of Irish History no family has ever put up such a massive fight over Daddys Gambling Debts.

Farmer Pudsey

Sponge Bob wrote: »

In all of Irish History no family has ever put up such a massive fight over Daddys Gambling Debts.

So would you if you thaught you could walk away with a couple hundred million and fair play to them there are a lot bigger crooks geting away with stuff in Ireland and nothing is being done about them. Also a lot of cute h##r's have already put it beyond the banks.

At least Sean Quinn was not a developer only he after all had build a lot of profitable buisness's before the fall. If we had a proper regulator he would not have been allowed to borrow the money and Seanie F would not have been able to take hois loan's off the balance sheet and Irish Permnament would not have lend them 2 Billion to cover the cracks