A8 Larne to Belfast gets approval

marmurr1916

From the BBC:

The new A8 road between Larne and Belfast has been given the go-ahead by roads minister Danny Kennedy.

The plan is to dual 14.5km of the A8 road with a bypass at Ballynure.

The estimated cost of the scheme is £120m, including an estimated £40m for the Ballynure bypass. Some people in the village opposed the bypass, saying it was a waste of taxpayers' money.

Mr Kennedy said the road would benefit motorists and provide a boost for the construction industry.

"This will help reduce journey times, improve road safety along the A8, and help the development of the Port of Larne, which is the second largest port in Northern Ireland," he said.

"As part of the Trans-European Network, the A8 is a strategically significant route, which provides an important east-west link between Northern Ireland and Scotland, via the port of Larne."

The minister said he had made his decision based on the findings of a public inquiry held last summer.

He said the dual carriageway would be "welcome news for the construction industry and when completed, will contribute to the overall economic development of Northern Ireland".

The project was first announced in June 2007. Work on the new road is due to begin in June and is expected to last two-and-a-half years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17907265

JupiterKid

Good news indeed.:) Now the NIRS need to get cracking on the A6 Randalstown to Castledawson dualling scheme.

This means that the E01 route from Rosslare to Larne will now have the N11 S2 section from Clough at the southern end oif the Gorey Bypass to Rosslare to be upgraeed once the Rathnew to Arklow scheme gets underway.

marmurr1916

Once those two schemes are finished, it'll be dual-carriageway or motorway from Clough to Larne harbour.

The route will be M11/N11, M50, M1/N1, A1, M1 (NI), A12, M2 (NI), A8(M), A8.

More information about the A8 upgrade here:

http://www.drdni.gov.uk/index/roadimprovements/schemes/a8_belfast_to_larne_dualling.htm

oharach

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Once those two schemes are finished, it'll be dual-carriageway or motorway from Clough to Larne harbour.

The route will be M11/N11, M50, M1/N1, A1, M1 (NI), A12, M2 (NI), A8(M), A8.

More information about the A8 upgrade here:

http://www.drdni.gov.uk/index/roadimprovements/schemes/a8_belfast_to_larne_dualling.htm

It would be nice to have some E01 signage north of the border. I know the UK government is not keen, but there is certainly a strong case for an exception in the case of this route.

Several years ago, I worked at the petrol station at J10 on the M1(NI), and frequently had to send people back to Sprucefield, because they had missed the turn-off for Dublin. Sometimes I would send them along the A26 to rejoin the A1 at Banbridge, but I usually thought it better to keep things simple.

Does anyone know if the M50 is also officially part of the E01 or does it follow the N11 into Dublin, and the N1 from there?

Richard

oharach wrote: »

It would be nice to have some E01 signage north of the border. I know the UK government is not keen, but there is certainly a strong case for an exception in the case of this route.

Several years ago, I worked at the petrol station at J10 on the M1(NI), and frequently had to send people back to Sprucefield, because they had missed the turn-off for Dublin. Sometimes I would send them along the A26 to rejoin the A1 at Banbridge, but I usually thought it better to keep things simple.

Does anyone know if the M50 is also officially part of the E01 or does it follow the N11 into Dublin, and the N1 from there?

I don't think Euro signage is necessary for an island. Some coordination on motorway numbering (or renumbering) north and south would help, but that is politically difficult.

oharach

Richard wrote: »

Some coordination on motorway numbering (or renumbering) north and south would help, but that is politically difficult.

That's exactly why we should adopt the E01 designation.

ardmacha

Some coordination on motorway numbering (or renumbering) north and south would help, but that is politically difficult

.

The political possibility of doing this has improved. However those who designed the 26 county numbering scheme didn't exactly leave provision for this, which would have been a reasonable thing to do.

Wild Bill

ardmacha wrote: »

.
However those who designed the 26 county numbering scheme didn't exactly leave provision for this, which would have been a reasonable thing to do.

Explain please?

Richard

oharach wrote: »

That's exactly why we should adopt the E01 designation.

I disagree. What is the point of having a road which supposedly goes from Larne to southern Spain? Especially when those routes already have numbers? No. People wouldnt call it the E01, anyway.

Instead, designate the N1 and A1 dual carriageways as a motorway. I know ome of the A1 would need an upgrade. Potentially the whole route from Dublin to Belfast could be signed as M1, but otherwise one of the M1s should change number.

We should move towards a situation where there is no duplication of motorway numbers on the island. We don't need E01 confusion.

Richard

ardmacha wrote: »

.

The political possibility of doing this has improved. However those who designed the 26 county numbering scheme didn't exactly leave provision for this, which would have been a reasonable thing to do.

I don't see what they could have done. Leave out the numbers which Northern Ireland had already used? What if Northern Ireland built more motorways?

In the event of a United Ireland, there probably would be a road renumbering in NI. We don't need that now, apart from for motorways as they both share the M prefix.

Jayuu

The M50 is part of the E-01 route although not signed which is a pity given that most of it was resigned in the last few years. Perhaps they thought it might be confusing to add this patch in with all the other information.

I would suggest the renumbering the A1 to the M1 would be very politically sensitive in the North so I can't see that happening. The M1 was deliberately built NOT to go to Dublin when it was first constructed. While times have moved on from way back then I think it might just open up a can of worms renaming it. There would also have to be significant work on the current A1 to bring it up to motorway standard and really that wouldn't be the most productive use of limited funds. And there would be major resigning to be done on both routes which again seems like an unnecessary use of funds.

Adding a small E-01 patch on signs in the North seems like an easier solution although it might raise some political sensitivites there. I don't enough about that to really commment. I don't think if the M50 signs were adapted anybody here would even blink (or notice).

And while nobody is ever likely to call the route the E-01, as long as all signage along it contains the patch then its still makes it easy for people to understand where the route is going.

ardmacha

The political possibility of doing this has improved. However those who designed the 26 county numbering scheme didn't exactly leave provision for this, which would have been a reasonable thing to do.

I don't see what they could have done. Leave out the numbers which Northern Ireland had already used? What if Northern Ireland built more motorways?

They could have left numbers for a renumbering of routes in NI. These could be renumbered to clearly distinguish the main routes rather than the present mix of main A roads and relatively unimportant one. Many NI main routes cross the border in any case, but some routes, notably Belfast-Larne Belfast - Coleraine and Belfast - Derry would need primary route numbers and some could have been left free for that purpose.

from a NI perspective even those positive about renumbering might not want M2 to become the M38 or suchlike, but would prefer a single digit.

On the Sabre forum it was suggested that the N10 could be recycled for this type of purpose.

As for the A1 when the new spur from M1 to A1 is built there is a suggestion that this might become the M1 and the remainder of the M1 be numbered something else (M4??).

NITransport

from a NI perspective even those positive about renumbering might not want M2 to become the M38 or suchlike, but would prefer a single digit.

If all island motorway numbering came into effect I believe it would most likely be the case that the M1 (NI) west of Lisburn would be renamed the M12, the M2 would be renamed the M13 and would include the M3, whilst the M1 (ROI) would extend the whole way to the end of the West Link. The M5 would become the M131, the A8 (M) would become the M132, and the M2 at Ballymena would become the M131.

M11 would be reserved for the day, if ever that the N33 was upgraded to motorway.

But I don't think it would make sense just yet, perhaps it would make more sense after the construction of the A1 to M1 free flow junction and the York Street Interchange, because these Motorways & Expressways would physically be connected.

marmurr1916

NITransport wrote: »

If all island motorway numbering came into effect I believe it would most likely be the case that the M1 (NI) west of Lisburn would be renamed the M12, the M2 would be renamed the M13 and would include the M3, whilst the M1 (ROI) would extend the whole way to the end of the West Link. The M5 would become the M131, the A8 (M) would become the M132, and the M2 at Ballymena would become the M131.

M11 would be reserved for the day, if ever that the N33 was upgraded to motorway.

But I don't think it would make sense just yet, perhaps it would make more sense after the construction of the A1 to M1 free flow junction and the York Street Interchange, because these Motorways & Expressways would physically be connected.

M11 is already in use in the Republic.

oharach

NITransport wrote: »

If all island motorway numbering came into effect I believe it would most likely be the case that the M1 (NI) west of Lisburn would be renamed the M12, the M2 would be renamed the M13 and would include the M3, whilst the M1 (ROI) would extend the whole way to the end of the West Link. The M5 would become the M131, the A8 (M) would become the M132, and the M2 at Ballymena would become the M131.

M11 would be reserved for the day, if ever that the N33 was upgraded to motorway.

But I don't think it would make sense just yet, perhaps it would make more sense after the construction of the A1 to M1 free flow junction and the York Street Interchange, because these Motorways & Expressways would physically be connected.

M12 is already in use in N. Ireland.

There seems to be a misconception that the A1 from the border to Sprucefield could easily be redesignated as motorway. Unfortunately, the A1 was never designed to motorway standards, and an upgrade would be prohibitively expensive, as it would involve realigning sections of the route, and closing many of the existing junctions. This is even before you overcome the legal obligation to provide an alternative route for non-motorway traffic.

NI Transport: your renumbering also seems pretty one-sided: why should the Irish M2 keep its number, while the longer and more strategic M2(NI) would be downgraded?

NITransport

M11 is already in use in the Republic.

My bad.

M12 is already in use in N. Ireland.

It's essentially an elongated slip road.

There seems to be a misconception that the A1 from the border to Sprucefield could easily be redesignated as motorway. Unfortunately, the A1 was never designed to motorway standards, and an upgrade would be prohibitively expensive, as it would involve realigning sections of the route, and closing many of the existing junctions. This is even before you overcome the legal obligation to provide an alternative route for non-motorway traffic.

I know. But the classification could be reserved for whenever an upgrade took place. However the road could be redesignated to North of the A1 Newry bypass. You haven't pointed out any problems with my claim that the Westlink could be reclassified too, good, as although this doesn't have any hard shoulders, it is similar in quality to some British motorways.

NI Transport: your renumbering also seems pretty one-sided: why should the Irish M2 keep its number, while the longer and more strategic M2(NI) would be downgraded?

It's not. The M2 could return to NI, should the HQDC upgrade of the A5 ever be upgraded further to motorway status. Do you think then that should the current A6 be upgraded to motorway standard, it should be called the M22? A Dublin centric motorway numbering system makes sense, as in Ireland, all roads lead to Rome Dublin.

oharach

M12

NITransport wrote: »

It's essentially an elongated slip road.

I know. However, it does have two junctions and I'm not sure how it would be possible to integrate that into the mainline M1 junction numbering system.

A1/M1

NITransport wrote: »

I know. But the classification could be reserved for whenever an upgrade took place. However the road could be redesignated to North of the A1 Newry bypass. You haven't pointed out any problems with my claim that the Westlink could be reclassified too, good, as although this doesn't have any hard shoulders, it is similar in quality to some British motorways.

It's almost unthinkable that the A1 will be upgraded to motorway standard, after so much investment has gone into making it a HQDC. I suggest that reserving the number speculatively wouldn't be of much use.

It would be confusing to the general public to reclassify the Newry bypass as M1 if this was still physically separated from the rest of the M1(NI).

The Westlink could, and probably should be reclassified as M1, at the latest when the York Street flyovers to the M2 and M3 are constructed.

M2 reclassification

NITransport wrote: »

It's not. The M2 could return to NI, should the HQDC upgrade of the A5 ever be upgraded further to motorway status. Do you think then that should the current A6 be upgraded to motorway standard, it should be called the M22? A Dublin centric motorway numbering system makes sense, as in Ireland, all roads lead to Rome Dublin.

You know as well as I do that even the HQDC upgrade of the A5 is controversial for being over-specced. It won't need to be motorway any time in the next century, so the M2 number would never return to NI.

There is no necessary logic in all single-digit motorways ending in Dublin. Look at the UK, where the M5, M8 and M9 do not go anywhere near London. If the M2 has to change (because of the ROI system of motorways subsuming the N-classification), then the M2(NI) should be renamed M3 for its entire length, including the current M22 section. The separate section around Ballymena should be called something else, maybe M31 to match.

The M5 and A8(M) can stay the same, as they don't conflict with anything.

In a rare on-topic comment: I still think additional E01 signage (in addition, not instead) would help cross-border travellers and hauliers.

ardmacha

It would be confusing to the general public to reclassify the Newry bypass as M1 if this was still physically separated from the rest of the M1(NI).

I doubt it. If the route was all called 1, then this would be line with practice in Ireland generally. Even in NI there has been an M2 at Ballymena for 40 years, linked to the original by the A26!

The main thing is that this could only happen when the new M1-A1 link is built and the M1 beyond that is renamed.

Wild Bill

oharach wrote: »

If the M2 has to change (because of the ROI system of motorways subsuming the N-classification), then the M2(NI) should be renamed M3 for its entire length, including the current M22 section. The separate section around Ballymena should be called something else, maybe M31 to match.

But there is an M3 already in County Meath?

L1011

Why would be issuing any M numbers without sorting out N numbers for them first?

A5 = N2, A1 = N1, and so on with some other N and R roads already having ghosts through the north but they'd need to sort out the rest of the system...

Victor

oharach wrote: »

It would be nice to have some E01 signage north of the border. I know the UK government is not keen, but there is certainly a strong case for an exception in the case of this route.

No, I think people need to learn to follow the signs. TOTSO!

Potentially the M1 west of Lisburn needs to be called the M4, as it continues on as the A4. this would allow Dublin-Belfast to be the only 'route 1'. Given the NI motorway system is limited, it shouldn't attempt to follow the British parallel numbering system. Indeed, the British system suffers from being too 'religious' about a number staying with a particular piece of road, as opposed to sticking to a particular best route from A to B, e.g. Derry-Coleraine shouldn't be both the A2 and the A37 and heading north/northeast from Belfast, you shouldn't have a choice of A2s.

While this may seem hypocritical, making Rosslare-Larne the E01 is not the way to do things, as you would them have an E01 heading:
* South from Dublin
* Around Dublin
* North from Dublin
* South from Belfast
* Through Belfast
* North from Belfast

So when they announce on the radio that there is a blockage on the E01, it is going to cause quite a bit of confusion.

Road numbers should go from main destination to main destination. In the context of the roads system we have, Dublin and Belfast (and Larne and Rosslare) are main destinations. However, traffic from Larne and Rosslare is negligible.

ardmacha wrote: »

.

The political possibility of doing this has improved. However those who designed the 26 county numbering scheme didn't exactly leave provision for this, which would have been a reasonable thing to do.

It not actually that bad. Its those that have added to the N-system (after N25) are those that cause the problem. Many roads in Northern Ireland are numbered in the high twenties to thirties series.

It would be possible to keep a hybrid system where the number is what is important, noT the M/A/B/C/N/R/L is the important bit. Let the northern motorways take their A-route numbers. Abolish the A2. The A3 can become the A12 from Craigavon to Monaghan/Cavan. Extend the N16 Sligo to Lisburn. There might be a problem with M16 being the main route west of the Bann. :pac:

Actually, have a look at my map. The biggest problem seems to be the number of commuter routes out of Belfast.

oharach

Wild Bill wrote: »

But there is an M3 already in County Meath?

Funny how easy it is to forget things you know!

Richard

NITransport wrote: »

A Dublin centric motorway numbering system makes sense, as in Ireland, all roads lead to Rome Dublin.

No they don't! Dublin isn't the capital of the whole island!

Calling the road which goes between Belfast and Dublin the M1 is locigal, although maybe not affordable at the moment. But that isn't having a Dublin-centric approach isn't necessary, and ignores the fact that Northern Ireland has its own capital.

SeanW

Northern Ireland uses the UK, road numbering system.

L1011

SeanW wrote: »

Northern Ireland uses the UK, road numbering system.

NI has its own road numbering system that happens to resemble, but is not the same, as the GB one.

Hence it having an A1, A2, M1, M2, etc that the UK also has...

marmurr1916

MYOB wrote: »

NI has its own road numbering system that happens to resemble, but is not the same, as the GB one.

Hence it having an A1, A2, M1, M2, etc that the UK also has...

It uses the same road numbering method but it's not part of the GB road numbering system. Incredibly important pedantic point!

If the A1 in Northern Ireland was upgraded to motorway, it would make sense to renumber the existing NI M1 from west of Lisburn to M4.

However, I suspect that a future Lisburn - Newry - border motorway would be numbered as A1 (M) instead.

I doubt that the A1 will be upgraded to motorway though.

It's much more likely that the route between the border and the junction with the NI M1 will be upgraded to HQDC in its entirety eventually, with similar restrictions on vehicle types, pedestrians, cyclists, animals etc as on parts of the A1 in Scotland and the A55 in Wales.

L1011

marmurr1916 wrote: »

It uses the same road numbering method but it's not part of the GB road numbering system. Incredibly important pedantic point!

Its not zonal, hence it only resembles the GB system :pac:

Wild Bill

marmurr1916 wrote: »

However, I suspect that a future Lisburn - Newry - border motorway would be numbered as A1 (M) instead.

I've always thought this A1234 (M) system is utterly daft.

Is such a shambolic numbering system used anywhere in the world outside the UK?

Richard

Wild Bill wrote: »

I've always thought this A1234 (M) system is utterly daft.

I think it makes sense where a main route has been upgraded in patches to motorway status.

Where it doesn't make sense IMHO, is where a many of these patches come together and the road hasn't been renamed. An example is the A74(M) in southern Scotland, which is treated as part of the M74, although it is labelled differently.

marmurr1916

Richard wrote: »

I think it makes sense where a main route has been upgraded in patches to motorway status.

Where it doesn't make sense IMHO, is where a many of these patches come together and the road hasn't been renamed. An example is the A74(M) in southern Scotland, which is treated as part of the M74, although it is labelled differently.

It's a bit of a daft system. Whatever about the A1/A1(M) in England, the entire '74' route could have been M74 for motorway sections and A74 for non-motorway sections prior to the completion of the whole motorway. The A8/M8, A9/M9, A77/M77, A90/M90 in Scotland follow that pattern.

ardmacha

While the A74(M) is nonsense, Scotland does share the Irish idea of numbering motorways by the route they replace, rather than a different system (as in England).

spacetweek

ardmacha wrote: »

While the A74(M) is nonsense, Scotland does share the Irish idea of numbering motorways by the route they replace, rather than a different system (as in England).

While that is true, it actually happened by accident, as they are part of England and Wales' zonal numbering system. It just turned out that they never needed to keep an Ax while parallel Mx was built. Instead, all motorways were close enough to the old route that the old route could be downgraded.

spacetweek

Just for reference, here is the tender for this scheme. No start date on it. Last updated a month ago.

spacetweek

This started in August. The ever-reliable Wesley Johnston has some photos of the initial work that is taking place.