Calculating the real tax burden

draiochtanois

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Manach

Offhand, based on the percentage of the population that has one, a tax on a credit card / banklink card - 30e.

draiochtanois

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cson

If you're going to be accurate the passport should be prorated over 10 years for the average person. Thus €8/yr.

liammur

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Car tax is a big one, bin charges another.

draiochtanois

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draiochtanois

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liammur

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Bins are about €300 a yr on average. As for the car, it depends on whether you have petrol or diesel, but as more people go to diesel we can expect diesel to go up significantly. I would say €300 a yr average car tax is being conservative.

draiochtanois

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28064212

draiochtanois wrote: »

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If you're taking VAT into account, shouldn't you be including it on... well, virtually everything?

creedp

liammur wrote: »

Bins are about €300 a yr on average. As for the car, it depends on whether you have petrol or diesel, but as more people go to diesel we can expect diesel to go up significantly. I would say €300 a yr average car tax is being conservative.

Throw in toll charges and NCT charges .. how about VRT for those lucky enough to be able to afford new cars (having said that I suppose VRT is not fully lost as presumably it is somewhat reflected in a higher resale price?). How about fuel duty/VAT - approximately 60% of your total fuel costs. How about VAT in general? Hospital charges, e.g. €100 for the A&E, €75 per day as an inpatient (max €750 a year), €132 a month (max €1584 a year) for prescribed drugs. You could argue that GP fees are also a tax in our tax-funded health system. You could throw in voluntary contributions to fund your children's education in our free tax funded primary and secondary education system. 3rd level education fees and on and on .....

draiochtanois

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draiochtanois

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Wizzbit

draiochtanois wrote: »

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House Insurance,
Mortage/life protection (have to have it if you u have a mtg),
Health - VHI

draiochtanois

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Icepick

Bins are not a tax. And if it is, so are electricity, gas, broadband, food...
I'd include health insurance.

Bullseye1

VAT on utility bills add a nice sum to that figure.

Bullseye1

VAT on utility bills add a nice sum to that figure. VAT on other purchased items and car fuels.

BornToKill

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Ah, I think I see where you're going wrong ...

Dannyboy83

Income Tax, PRSI and Levies
Universal Social Charge (USC)
Car Park Levy €200
PRSI
DIRT

Corporation Tax
Capital Gains Tax
Capital Acquisitions Tax
Stamp Duty
Customs & Excise

Geuze

Most recent data from Eurostat on tax levels:

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Tax_revenue_statistics

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-12-002/EN/KS-SF-12-002-EN.PDF

Geuze

This is tax levels as a% of GDP across the EU.

Geuze

One of the reasons tax levels are so low in Irl is very low PRSI.

PRSI in Irl = 4%

Germany = approx 20% paid by ee

Rentenversicherung (Pension insurance): 19.6 percent
Arbeitslosenversicherung (Unemployment insurance): 3.0 percent
Krankenversicherung (Health insurance): 15.5 percent - 8.2 percent paid by the employee and 7.3 percent paid by the employer
Pflegeversicherung (Nursing care insurance): 1.95 percent

Approx 40% in total, approx half paid by the employee.

Damien360

VAT on weekly food bill for 2+2 family €200 at 23% VAT
VAT on ESB bills €150 every 2 months at lower rate of vat
VAT on Gas bill €150 every 2 months at lower rate of vat
VAT on broadband and phone €70 per month at ?? vat
VAT on diesel and petrol for town car 10000km per year €75 every 2 weeks sound right ?
Do not include entertainement such as pub, videos etc. as it will muddy the water
You would have to include VHI in full for 2+2 if we are going to compare to Gueze German figures.

You would have to calculate this on the basis of a tax paid after you have paid PAYE etc and work it out.

@gueze. Your graph grates me as it is taken as an average of all workers. Given that a large chunk of low earners and high earners pay sod all, the middle classes are taking a battering. I do not believe your graph represents those of us who actually pay tax.

creedp

Damien360 wrote: »

@gueze. Your graph grates me as it is taken as an average of all workers. Given that a large chunk of low earners and high earners pay sod all, the middle classes are taking a battering. I do not believe your graph represents those of us who actually pay tax.

2 issues here really - using GDP skews the results for Ireland becasue we have a higher GDP to GNP ratio that other EU countries. Secondly though it shows that as a aconomy we are taxed at a lower rate than most of Europe. It may be argued that the middle classes are carrying an unfair proporion of this burden (and it certainly feels that way) but that means the tax system needs to be broadened by removing/capping/reducing exemptions. This however, has to be viewed in the context of much better publicy funded services in Europe. For example, you don't get people paying €60 to visit a GP/€1,500 pa for prescribed meds/over €2k pa for private health insurance in these these countries.

jester77

creedp wrote: »

For example, you don't get people paying €60 to visit a GP/€1,500 pa for prescribed meds/over €2k pa for private health insurance in these these countries.

Health insurance in Ireland is cheap compared to a lot of countries. I'm paying nearly €500 a month for health insurance in Germany which is one of the cheapest packages going here. As it's a cheap package I have to pay €450 per annum out of my pocket before I can claim on the insurance. It's mandatory to have it here, and if I had children I would be paying an extra premium per child on top of that €500 a month. Both my parents are in the VHI and frequent the doctor many times through the year, often with small procedures involved, and they don't come close to paying what I pay. The service they have gotten so far has been top notch and is on a par with anything that one would receive here, albeit they have to travel to Dublin all the time.

creedp

jester77 wrote: »

Health insurance in Ireland is cheap compared to a lot of countries. I'm paying nearly €500 a month for health insurance in Germany which is one of the cheapest packages going here. As it's a cheap package I have to pay €450 per annum out of my pocket before I can claim on the insurance. It's mandatory to have it here, and if I had children I would be paying an extra premium per child on top of that €500 a month. Both my parents are in the VHI and frequent the doctor many times through the year, often with small procedures involved, and they don't come close to paying what I pay. The service they have gotten so far has been top notch and is on a par with anything that one would receive here, albeit they have to travel to Dublin all the time.

I am surprised and obviously mistaken. I was of the view that Germany has a compulsory social insurance scheme that funded public healthcare subject to some co-payments. The differnce being I thought that it worked unlike that of the compulsory tax funded health system in Ireland which is so bad for public patients that people feel the need to spend an additional €1k per person to gain preferential access to public hospitals. Is you €500 per month on top of your social insurance contributions? Why do you feel the need to take out top-up private health insurance in Germany? I'm just curious.

jester77

creedp wrote: »

I am surprised and obviously mistaken. I was of the view that Germany has a compulsory social insurance scheme that funded public healthcare subject to some co-payments. The differnce being I thought that it worked unlike that of the compulsory tax funded health system in Ireland which is so bad for public patients that people feel the need to spend an additional €1k per person to gain preferential access to public hospitals. Is you €500 per month on top of your social insurance contributions? Why do you feel the need to take out top-up private health insurance in Germany? I'm just curious.

I find the health system is excellent here (but many Germans are not happy with it), but it can be a very unfair system imo. Health insurance is compulsory and is charged at 15.5% of your salary. Roughly half is payed by the employee and the other half by the employer.

Once you earn over 50k then you are allowed to leave the public system and join a private health insurance scheme. This is a fixed amount per year and not a % of your salary. So once you earn over a certain amount it is cheaper to go private and you get preferential treatment. Under the public system your children are included, but under the private you would pay a premium per child.

Some doctors only take private patients while a lot of other doctors will have 2 waiting rooms (1 for private and 1 for public) with private patients getting seen to almost right away. The reason for this is that private patients pay all costs up front and then claim it back from their insurance company while public patients don't pay and the doctor has to then claim the money himself from the public system.

creedp

jester77 wrote: »

I find the health system is excellent here (but many Germans are not happy with it), but it can be a very unfair system imo. Health insurance is compulsory and is charged at 15.5% of your salary. Roughly half is payed by the employee and the other half by the employer.

Once you earn over 50k then you are allowed to leave the public system and join a private health insurance scheme. This is a fixed amount per year and not a % of your salary. So once you earn over a certain amount it is cheaper to go private and you get preferential treatment. Under the public system your children are included, but under the private you would pay a premium per child.

Some doctors only take private patients while a lot of other doctors will have 2 waiting rooms (1 for private and 1 for public) with private patients getting seen to almost right away. The reason for this is that private patients pay all costs up front and then claim it back from their insurance company while public patients don't pay and the doctor has to then claim the money himself from the public system.

OK so if you are private you are not paying compulsory social insurance towards your healthcare, saving some €3,500 per year in SI (i.e. if you are earning €50k and obviously proportionally more the more you earn above this figure) and paying a private premium instead. The problem here is that over 20% of you tax is spent on the public health system and on top ofthat you have to pay for GPs and drugs and many feel they have to pay for out-patient consultants and private insurance.

However, looks like to German system is quite inequitable as it provides preferential access to the wealthy without requiring them to make additional contributions to the cost of the public system via SI payments, the much vaunted solidarity principle. Does this mean that the lower paid who are compulsory insured in the public system end up having to contribute more as a proportion of their income for an inferior service? Maybe the Irish system isn't that unfair after all!!

jester77

creedp wrote: »

OK so if you are private you are not paying compulsory social insurance towards your healthcare, saving some €3,500 per year in SI (i.e. if you are earning €50k and obviously proportionally more the more you earn above this figure) and paying a private premium instead. The problem here is that over 20% of you tax is spent on the public health system and on top ofthat you have to pay for GPs and drugs and many feel they have to pay for out-patient consultants and private insurance.

However, looks like to German system is quite inequitable as it provides preferential access to the wealthy without requiring them to make additional contributions to the cost of the public system via SI payments, the much vaunted solidarity principle. Does this mean that the lower paid who are compulsory insured in the public system end up having to contribute more as a proportion of their income for an inferior service? Maybe the Irish system isn't that unfair after all!!

True, that's what I don't like about the German system. Everyone who is in the public system pay 15.5% of their salary towards the health system. I think that the social welfare also has to pay the contributions of everyone that is employed and receiving welfare. Those who are private don't pay as much as a proportion of their income, I would be paying a few hundred more per month if I was publicly insured, but if I have children then I will probably be worse off.

creedp

jester77 wrote: »

True, that's what I don't like about the German system. Everyone who is in the public system pay 15.5% of their salary towards the health system. I think that the social welfare also has to pay the contributions of everyone that is employed and receiving welfare. Those who are private don't pay as much as a proportion of their income, I would be paying a few hundred more per month if I was publicly insured, but if I have children then I will probably be worse off.

I know this is OT and I apologise but I'm surprised by this .. its no wonder Germany is increasingly finding it difficult to cover the benefits provided by the public health system as those most able to contribute are excused .. contrary to the principle of solidarity under which any compulsory social insurance scheme should be based. This was also the case in Holland until quite recently when it was made compulsory for all the population to contribute to the public health system.

The German system would be perfect for Ireland as those with PHI would not have to pay taxes to fund the public health system!! Of course their private premiums would increase significantly as there still remains an element of cross subsidisation of private healthcare in public hospitals at present.

Geuze

In terms of the "real" tax burden, the following data from Seamus Coffey's blog may help the debate:

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2012/05/general-government-accounts.html

djpbarry

Damien360 wrote: »

Given that a large chunk of low earners and high earners pay sod all...

High earners pay sod all? Given that Ireland has an extremely progressive tax system (overly so, in my opinion), how is that "a large chunk" of high earners are not paying their share? How large is this chunk exactly?