Motors Off Topic Thread

Big Nasty

The above was closed today because (AFAIK) one or possibly two users were arguing with Mods. Any OT thread is going to be difficult to mod but it's a pity to loose a very enjoyable thread for the sake of a couple of posters.

Can this thread be re-opened with a policy that arguing with a mod will give you a seven day ban? Should keep it in line then.

star-pants

Arguing on thread with a mod decision is generally against the rules anyway.

In the case of the Motors OT thread, I'd assume it's causing an awful lot of unnecessary hassle/headaches for the moderators and as such they've made a decision to close it.

If you are looking to contest/query the closure of it, I'd suggest PM'ing the Motors Mods for clarification first. I'd highly doubt that they'd be instructed from above to re-open it, if it's proven to be volcanic.

There are occasional prompts from mods to keep the chat motoring related, this seems to contradict other guidance....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78040220&postcount=6823

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78040935&postcount=6864


It's no doubt an enjoyable thread most of the time but I can appreciate it must be a disaster to moderate at times, but I imagine folks are perhaps confused with the variation in what's tolerated, sometimes it doesn't have to be motoring related and other times it does.

Now todays page or two about shaving tactics etc was admittedly in the wrong thread, there is a forum for that

If it was closed over folks arguing with mods could the people just be warned or infracted as per normal tactics rather than the thread being closed? Something along MCMLXXV's suggestion might well deter folks from taking the Micheal

challengemaster

star-pants wrote: »

In the case of the Motors OT thread, I'd assume it's causing an awful lot of unnecessary hassle/headaches for the moderators and as such they've made a decision to close it.

If you are looking to contest/query the closure of it, I'd suggest PM'ing the Motors Mods for clarification first. I'd highly doubt that they'd be instructed from above to re-open it, if it's proven to be volcanic.

I don't honestly think it's causing unnecessary hassle, rather the moderators are causing the hassle for themselves in relation to the thread. This might seem rather critical, I know, but it's what seems to be the case.

For clarification : It was started as an OT thread, by one of the users not a moderator (so ground rules were not laid out in the opening post). As some issues cropped up in relation to flirting and some other things, the moderators stepped in and that was generally speaking, fine, as the consensus was reached that it would only isolate new users from joining in.

However, the main issue arose when the moderators decided amongst themselves that instead of being an off topic thread, they wanted it to be a motors/motoring related off topic thread, which in essence is an on topic, off topic thread, and thus defeating the point of the thread in the first place. Also posts like this aren't helpful in deciphering what can or can't be posted about.

The issue was raised about this, as in comparison to every other forum with an OT thread, the motors one was the only one where moderators continually stepped in to urge people to "Stay on topic", or get back on topic in some form or another. Example

As you can see by the following replies, including this and this, and finally this which actually deals with the issue.

Because of the above, I honestly believe the thread itself is of no hassle to anyone, it's the moderators trying to enforce this nonsensical off topic thread that must be on topic or relevant to the forum at all times which is in turn causing themselves hassle, and feeding back into itself.

With regards to PM'ing the moderators about the closure or reopening the thread, with the way it's been handled so far and the post dealing with the closure, this doesn't seem like a viable option, nor one that will be considered.


As MCMLXXV has said, it is a very enjoyable and useful thread, and a very friendly thread in the forum and it would be a shame to lose it, but something needs to change for it to work.

Fiona

Ah shame its closed. It was a good way to break in and try to get some of the other boards motoring people. I hold my hands up i am a girl i dont know a lot about cars so therefor dont post in all the threads about cars as i dont really have that much valuable information to offer but it was nice to have a social end of it to get to know people before attending meets etc. I am guilty of bringing the thread into disrepute with some banter between one or two members but nobody forces anybody to read the ot thread..... If its not your cup of tea then sure just dont read it.

star-pants

Just in relation to the 'OT is off-topic and not specifically forum related' -- the OT thread in A&PI for example, is generally about pets. There's a little bit of this and that, but not enough to drag the thread into an unwanted discussion.
We did have issue where some posters used it for other uses such as feedback and we had to guide it back / remove some posts. But if you glance through the thread you'll see it's mostly about people's life with their pets.

I assume that's what the Motors Mods meant by 'OT - Motor related'. Those everyday little bits & bobs that don't require a thread or a Q&A session. With regards to it being 'mods discretion' - I would think they didn't want to have to list off 'you can talk about X, you can't talk about Y' but rather let the thread breathe and just nip it in when required.
Obviously that didn't seem to work.

Some of you say ''sure there's no work in an OT thread'', but how many complaints / reported posts were there made in regards to that thread on a daily basis? That would be something that would need to be taken into account, it may look like the Mods throwing down the lock but if there's a high volume of complaints/reports they are obliged to take action as well.

Fiona

Stupid question but is it possible to publish the people who report posts? Maybe we could put them on our ignore lists so they would not have to read our ot posts and vice versa? I mean the world is a very serious place and i love my car dearly but i dont really want to talk about it 24/7 but i love have a laugh with fellow petrol heads so the ot thread was a great place for that. Plus gives you some conversation material to use to strike up a chat with somebody when you eventually get to meet them in real life?

challengemaster

johnos1984 wrote: »

We have a thread called 'Here's what I did today' or something along those lines.

Just to reiterate this

The "Here's what I did to my car today thread" pretty much covers the topic of "motor related chat" for the most part. It's about as On-topic for chat as you can get.

If you're confined to only talking about what you did to your car or creating a new thread about X issue in relation to motoring, you run out of conversation pretty quickly and the place will just go quiet, as has already happened tbh.

star-pants

johnos1984 wrote: »

Most complaints in the past have come from people who don't post in it and one who complained about a link they opened while at work.

Out of curiosity - how can you be certain that most who complained were those who don't post in it if you don't have access to reported posts? (as I'm sure not all complaints were made on thread)

On Boards it's general courtesy to post NSFW tags for anything 'not safe for work' so using the line of 'you shouldn't be browsing Boards in work' isn't fair.

I'm not saying you guys aren't right to fight for an off-topic thread, and I'm not saying the moderators are right in closing it.

At the end of the day, the moderators of the forum are the ones who dealt with the thread, the reports, any complaints etc. and made the decision so really it's them that would need to clarify the situation.

star-pants

Fiona wrote: »

Stupid question but is it possible to publish the people who report posts? Maybe we could put them on our ignore lists so they would not have to read our ot posts and vice versa?

Just to answer your question -- no, reported posts are not for general viewing and as such a list of who reports what would not be handed out to general Boardsies.

challengemaster

star-pants wrote: »

On Boards it's general courtesy to post NSFW tags for anything 'not safe for work' so using the line of 'you shouldn't be browsing Boards in work' isn't fair.

As johnos has said, IIRC the post in question did have NSFW tags, and also there's never been anything too OTT posted either.

I think the point being made, in fairness to johnos, is that viewing something NSFW while at work isn't the biggest concern of HR / your boss, it's that you're on the internet and not doing your actual job. It goes without saying that NSFW stuff has general boards "rules" applied.

Hence why posts being reported as "could get people in trouble at work" doesn't seem like the most serious issue, forum wise.

Steve

johnos1984 wrote: »

The list may exist in the motors offline forum but I doubt it would ever be made public

It doesn't.

Only mods can view reported posts and divulging any information from that forum = instant de-modding.

Steve

johnos1984 wrote: »

Non mod's are members and have access

Yes, but there is no information about reported posts in that forum, nor is it allowed to discuss anything to do with moderation (within reason) or discuss anything to do with users that don't have access there (unless it's to do with considering their access request).

Hope that makes sense.

star-pants

johnos1984 wrote: »

Non mod's are members and have access

To the Moderator forum?

star-pants

johnos1984 wrote: »

Not from what I've been told

johnos1984 wrote: »

An invite only forum for mods and members to discuss what they want, sadly the plebs on screen aren't extended the same courtesy with an OT thread due to over zealous moderation

So you meant the OTG forum? a private forum which by nature is usually invite only.

There's two separate and potentially serious issues then there:
1) reported posts etc. being discussed in a non-moderator forum

2) stuff from a private forum being discussed with non-members of that forum (edited to clarify, members of OTG discussing stuff from OTG with non members of OTG)

Steve

johnos1984 wrote: »

Not from what I've been told

Please pm me with what you've been told, I'll gladly get to the bottom of it.

star-pants

star-pants wrote: »

.............. (edited to clarify, members of OTG discussing stuff from OTG with non members of OTG)

No real way to eliminate/prevent that from happening though, realistically.

AltAccount

Surely an off-topic thread that has nothing to do with that forum, shouln't be in the forum.

If you don't want to discuss Motors-related off-topic topics, and are looking for truely off-topic or random conversations, there's already an entire forum for that...

star-pants

RoverJames wrote: »

No real way to eliminate/prevent that from happening though, realistically.

There is... those leaking info from OTG get kicked out.
Most private forums are very strict on that type of thing.

However if no-one comes forward and lets the Mods of the private forum know who's leaking stuff then their access won't get removed.

AltAccount

RoverJames wrote: »

No real way to eliminate/prevent that from happening though, realistically.

...and presumably that's between the members of the private forum and nothing to do with this thread.

star-pants

star-pants wrote: »

There is... those leaking info from OTG get kicked out.
Most private forums are very strict on that type of thing...........

Rules will always be broken, human nature etc etc

challengemaster

AltAccount wrote: »

Surely an off-topic thread that has nothing to do with that forum, shouln't be in the forum.

If you don't want to discuss Motors-related off-topic topics, and are looking for truely off-topic or random conversations, there's already an entire forum for that...

There's a difference between going "this belongs in AH" (just using as an example) and having a thread in the forum where the forum regulars and everyone else that visits can chat freely amongst themselves.

One is a catch-all for the entire site's random discussions, the other is the "community" of a particular forum being able to discuss whatever is on their minds amongst themselves - two completely different things, which are really non-comparable.

If that was the case, no forum would have an off topic thread.

Steve

johnos1984 wrote: »

All PM's have been deleted to protect others.

Sorry Steve I'm not reporting it

Nothing to apologise for - I've replied to your pm there.

If you have examples of wrongdoing and are concerned about reporting it then pm Dav or Nicola or any admin you feel you can trust.

AltAccount

challengemaster wrote: »

I don't honestly think it's causing unnecessary hassle, rather the moderators are causing the hassle for themselves in relation to the thread. This might seem rather critical, I know, but it's what seems to be the case.

For clarification : It was started as an OT thread, by one of the users not a moderator (so ground rules were not laid out in the opening post). As some issues cropped up in relation to flirting and some other things, the moderators stepped in and that was generally speaking, fine, as the consensus was reached that it would only isolate new users from joining in.

However, the main issue arose when the moderators decided amongst themselves that instead of being an off topic thread, they wanted it to be a motors/motoring related off topic thread, which in essence is an on topic, off topic thread, and thus defeating the point of the thread in the first place. Also posts like this aren't helpful in deciphering what can or can't be posted about.

The issue was raised about this, as in comparison to every other forum with an OT thread, the motors one was the only one where moderators continually stepped in to urge people to "Stay on topic", or get back on topic in some form or another. Example

As you can see by the following replies, including this and this, and finally this which actually deals with the issue.

Because of the above, I honestly believe the thread itself is of no hassle to anyone, it's the moderators trying to enforce this nonsensical off topic thread that must be on topic or relevant to the forum at all times which is in turn causing themselves hassle, and feeding back into itself.

With regards to PM'ing the moderators about the closure or reopening the thread, with the way it's been handled so far and the post dealing with the closure, this doesn't seem like a viable option, nor one that will be considered.


As MCMLXXV has said, it is a very enjoyable and useful thread, and a very friendly thread in the forum and it would be a shame to lose it, but something needs to change for it to work.

If reading about it is this much hard work, I can only imagine how much hassle modding the actual thread is.

dgt

This particular thread has brought the motoring forum together by allowing us to get to know each other in a light hearted manner. Its a pity it has closed, I feel the motoring forum needs a place to talk in an off topic manner

AltAccount

johnos1984 wrote: »

It is between everyone when non members are discussed :rolleyes:

And it has everything to do with it. Why can there be an OT area for some but not all

So if I and my colleagues want to give out about another colleague in the office canteen, they should be invited into the conversation, or have some kind of right to know the contents of the conversation?

OT conversations are allowed in an OT private forum (I presume the OT in OTG stands for off-topic?), but conversations in topic-specific forums are expected to relate to that topic? Sounds reasonable...

challengemaster

AltAccount wrote: »

OT conversations are allowed in an OT private forum (I presume the OT in OTG stands for off-topic?), but conversations in topic-specific forums are expected to relate to that topic? Sounds reasonable...

Even if that was true, which it isn't, a private invite only forum for a select few to have off topic chat, while the rest of the forum can keep on topic or keep to themselves sounds reasonable to you?

star-pants

AltAccount wrote: »

So if I and my colleagues want to give out about another colleague in the office canteen, they should be invited into the conversation, or have some kind of right to know the contents of the conversation?

To be fair, I think the point being made was that reported posts / their contents / who reported them was being discussed in a non-moderator forum, which is not allowed.

AltAccount

challengemaster wrote: »

Even if that was true, which it isn't, a private invite only forum for a select few to have off topic chat, while the rest of the forum can keep on topic or keep to themselves sounds reasonable to you?

Yep!

If I want to read about cars, I go to Motors, if I want to read about cameras, I go to Photography. If I want light hearted general discussion, I go to After Hours.

Definitely sounds reasonable

AltAccount

johnos1984 wrote: »

Sounds like you have a vested interest in in the private members forum,

I think normal users who are not allowed membership of the private forum would apppreciate somewhere to talk. Why should they be denied the same courtesy

I don't know how you'd think that from what I've posted, seems a bit like an accusation TBH.

star-pants

Just to make a point about off-topic threads - I wandered into TLL (which I never frequent) because I know they created a private forum themselves and was curious if they had an OT thread.
They don't... I happened across this post in their charter.

Just obviously Motors isn't alone in denying an OT thread.

AltAccount

star-pants wrote: »

To be fair, I think the point being made was that reported posts / their contents / who reported them was being discussed in a non-moderator forum, which is not allowed.

I'd have no problem with people bitching about other posters in private, but if mods are sharing secrets - in private forums or otherwise - then that's not cool.

challengemaster

AltAccount wrote: »

Yep!

If I want to read about cars, I go to Motors, if I want to read about cameras, I go to Photography. If I want light hearted general discussion, I go to After Hours.

Definitely sounds reasonable

You've completely missed the point, and I'm starting to think on purpose tbh.

AltAccount

johnos1984 wrote: »

Report it then.

People just want their OT thread back not a petty argument

I won't report it because I don't think it's a big deal, I'm just putting across another side of an argument which you don't agree with.

If you're going to pepper you replies with accusations of "vested interests" or "petty arguments", you'd want to be able to back up the accusation or you will be reported for attacking me personally.

Put up or shut up buddy

AltAccount

challengemaster wrote: »

You've completely missed the point, and I'm starting to think on purpose tbh.

Apologies if I did, please re-explain.

challengemaster

challengemaster wrote: »

There's a difference between going "this belongs in AH" (just using as an example) and having a thread in the forum where the forum regulars and everyone else that visits can chat freely amongst themselves.

One is a catch-all for the entire site's random discussions, the other is the "community" of a particular forum being able to discuss whatever is on their minds amongst themselves - two completely different things, which are really non-comparable.

If that was the case, no forum would have an off topic thread.

^^

+

a private invite only forum for a select few to have off topic chat, while the rest of the forum can keep on topic or keep to themselves sounds reasonable to you?

You're saying a small clique of users decided by an inside group, should be allowed off topic chat, but everyone else can get lost?

AltAccount

johnos1984 wrote: »

Stop trying to derail the thread for those who want the OT thread back

And don't tell me to shut up, if you have an issue with me PM me. You don't look tough on screen

I'm not derailing the thread, I'm questioning the need for an off-topic thread in Motors. You don't agree, that's fine.

"Put up or shut up" is a commonly used phrase, it's like "put your money where your mouth is". Neither is meant as a literal instruction.

johnos1984

As motors has meets an a regular basis the OT thread allows new users a entry to meet people before they come along to a cold wet car park to talk to strangers.

It helps build a community and develop the forum further and encourage new users to discuss cars and other topics.

It allows people with a passing interest in cars to develop their knowledge in a relaxed environment and seek guidance on issues.

It is not a thread to bitch about others, it is a place where the motors regulars can relax and talk about different topics with the people they know on screen before meeting them (if thats what they want to do)

That's why we want it. Mods and other users have access to this facility elsewhere but it isn't allowed for regular members who want it too.

It's hardly a big ask

AltAccount

challengemaster wrote: »

^^

+


You're saying a small clique of users decided by an inside group, should be allowed off topic chat, but everyone else can get lost?

I'm saying off topic conversations in ANY off topic forum, public or private, is ok.
I'm also saying that I think the mods of an "on topic" forum deciding that they won't allow off topic threads, is entirely reasonable.

AltAccount

johnos1984 wrote: »

That's why we want it. Mods and other users have access to this facility elsewhere but it isn't allowed for regular members who want it too.

It's hardly a big ask

Everyone has access to an off topic facility. If you want you own personal ofv topic thread at the expense of the time and stress of the mods, then that's a different issue.

I don't see them closing a popular thread, and putting up with the hassle of a backlash, unless they have good reason for it.

AltAccount

johnos1984 wrote: »

Mods have another forum which they share with members who they pick to allow off topic conversation.

Are you saying it is fair that other members should be denied the same courtesy?

So you're saying there's a secret Motors sub-forum that all the Motors mods have access to, but they'll only let people they like into the forum?

That doesn't seem fair TBH.

challengemaster

AltAccount wrote: »

Everyone has access to an off topic facility. If you want you own personal ofv topic thread at the expense of the time and stress of the mods, then that's a different issue.

Everyone has access to one somewhere on the site, yes.

Not everyone has access to one that's orientated around the motors forum community of users.

This is the problem. I can't make it any clearer.

AltAccount

challengemaster wrote: »

Everyone has access to one somewhere on the site, yes.

Not everyone has access to one that's orientated around the motors forum community of users.

This is the problem. I can't make it any clearer.

Not everyone has access to a private forum? I guess if they did it'd be a public forum then, wouldn't it...

johnos1984 wrote: »

YES.

It's called MOTORS OFFLINE which has been our argument for ages :rolleyes:

TBH, at this stage I'm not sure if you two are annoyed about not having a Motors off topic thread, or annoyed that there's a super sekret club that you're not a member of.

166man

I think it's a joke they closed it. To me it just looked like TT trying to a smart lad, I didn't see any reason to close it. It's a great thread, sure it was only a few days ago we found out that Quazzie's old car had been clocked and put up for sale, and then caught the seller out.

Where the hell else do you post that kind of stuff, I'm annoyed because I enjoyed that thread. Yes it went a little far sometimes but still that's life. No need to close it at all.:mad:

superstoner90

+1

I also enjoyed that thread, it was someplace where you could have a chat and the crack, as said above theres no other thread for the off topic chat. It was also very usefull if you needed any advice on cars. Only for it id still be using the wrong primer. It was a good thread if you had a quistion that dident really need a thread. Please reopen it.

AltAccount

johnos1984 wrote: »

Have a picture which explains everything I think

From accusing me of derailling the thread to posting "hiarious" meme pics? Classy.

TBH if the posting in the off-topic thread is anything as civil as the posting here, I'm not surprised it's closed.

AltAccount

johnos1984 wrote: »

So lets get this straight.

You're arguing a thread should be closed which you have no knowledge about?

GENIUS

Ive never posted in the Motors off topic thread, I never saw the point and when I dipped in I never found anything I couldn't get in other forums.
Hence why I'm on this thread sharing an opinion that the thread is unnecessary, especially if it's causing the mods hassle.

ChewChew

johnos1984 wrote: »

The list may exist in the motors offline forum but I doubt it would ever be made public

May exist? Why would we make anything public, that is said in a private forum?

johnos1984 wrote: »

I imagine there has been a discussion among mods and members in motors offline as to the future of the public thread

Discussions, OT, chit chat, generally bolloxology that goes on in OTG is our own chit chat. the general motors forum is on a rare occasion mentioned. I actually can't recall when last it was mentioned.

We do have a whopper fun time in there though.

So in the heel of the hunt, no need to bring us into this feedback thread, thanks very much.

AltAccount wrote: »

OT conversations are allowed in an OT private forum (I presume the OT in OTG stands for off-topic?), but conversations in topic-specific forums are expected to relate to that topic? Sounds reasonable...

WWHHHAAAAA!! Ger outta me box love, will ya? :pac:

AltAccount

johnos1984 wrote: »

Actually it's a sock puppet

Sock puppeting has a specific meaning on internet forums. I'm not sure if you're being pedantic about the photo or if this is another accusation...

AltAccount

johnos1984 wrote: »

But if you don't post in the thread and rarely look at it how do you know it's unnecessary?

Just because you don't like it how do you know that it is unnecessary?

I don't see the benefit in it, so I believe it's unnecessary if it's causing the volunteer mods hassle.

There's a subtle but significant difference

ChewChew

johnos1984 wrote: »

It was a reply to Fiona who wanted it made public

I saw that. But why would reported posts be listed in a private forum? Seriously... what am I missing here?

johnos1984 wrote: »

Really nice of you to rub the regular motors forum members nose in it

In fact if that is the general attitude it really shows disdain for the opinions of the regular members

If in fact I've missed the sarcasm I'll edit this post just let me know

Rub their nose in what? That there is a private forum that a few people who post in motors are also a member in? Right. I'm sure you are aware there is probably 50 or more private forums on boards?

But there is no attitude Johnos1984... Just a nice little corner on boards for a few of us to sit back... but the feet up... and do our knitting.