Whats normal procedure (No money at restaurant CC machine broken)

CIARAN_BOYLE

I recently ate lunch at restaurant. At the end of the meal I indicated to the waiter that I wanted to pay by credit card. They informed me that their credit card machine was broken (they had no signs indicating this anywhere in the restaurant). As I had no cash with me obviously I was a little worried before remembering that there was an ATM across the street from the restaurant. At this point I explained that I had no cash since I had planned to pay by card and I asked if I could go across the street to the ATM. At this point the waiter I was dealing with grabbed my arm and called over the manager. The waiter explained the situation to the manager and told the waiter not to let go of me, if he won't pay cash he is not leaving the premises, the manager then proceeded to call the garda.

Anyway I sat there for about an half an hour with one of the waiters gripping tightly onto my arm before the manger walked up to me with two members of An Garda Siochana in tow spluttering about me refusing to pay. Anyway the Garda kinda found the situation funny especially when I explained that I had offered to use the ATM across the road to get the restaurant the money.

The Garda escorted me to the ATM so I could get money and then I returned and paid my bill before leaving. The Garda had to ensure I got change since the manager wanted to take the extra cash as penalty for the trouble I caused them.

What is the normal procedure in most restaurants if someone doesn't have money. Would that procedure change if credit card machines are broken and there was no signage indicating this..

afatbollix

Name and shame!!!!

Disgraceful Behavior.

The restaurant should of been charged with wasting Gardai time and yours.

rubberdiddies

if true then definately name and shame.

if you were so inclined im sure you could also take them to court for false imprisonment. would help your case if it could be proven that their CC machines were out of order at that time. (solicitors advice would obviously be required!)

me personally, I couldnt let that go, particularly as the guards were called. but thats just me!

Pataman

What a shower of ****. No way you should have been treated like that. And no way he should have held you.

caff

Happened to me a few times, offer to leave another card from my wallet with my name on it with them then run across the road. Never had the sort of trouble you had. Wonder if you could argue unlawful detainment ?

brightspark

I'd have asked the gardai to charge them with assault for gripping your arm tightly.

The trouble you caused them? Frankly I'd be looking for something for the trouble they caused you - detainment and public humiliation and lying to a garda

Miaireland

The restaurant near where I live cc machine breaks down often. They put a sign up on all the doors and advise people at time of ordering. If it breaks down in the middle of someones meal and they want to pay be credit card, it is explained to the customer and they are asked to return with the cash when they can.

_feedback_

That is ridiculous carry on! It's unbelievable really.

They sat there holding your arm for half an hour? I think I would have lost patience and forced my out by that stage and just go to the feckin ATM.

I wouldn't let them get away with that one OP..

Triangla

Happened to me in McDonalds, Grafton St.

No cash and was paying by Laser. Laser machines went off line so they apologised and gave me meal for free.

You were treated incredibly badly. The fact that they physically held you and detained you is unreal.

W#nkers!

noodler

Okay:

First of all, my understanding (which someone will confirm or deny soon) is that a Restaurant or any business is entitled to cash as a payment. Also, I would have asked the question before I ordered just in case.

However, what happened after that seems totally out of line. I would have had to physically remove the waiter's hand from my arm if he refused to do so voluntarily and probably gotten myself in more trouble.

Surely a simple solution would have been for them to take some of your ID or wallet (or even jacket) and hold them until you bring back the money?

I'd also love to know the name of the Restaurant (at least via PM if the mods decide you can't post it publicly).

Statistician

That's outrageous!
False imprisonment and assault I would think.

Anyway, this happened to me a few weeks ago. I went up to pay and was told the machine was broken. They apologised to me, and suggested I went to the ATM to get cash. I didn't have to offer security or anything. So I went, got the cash and everyone was happy.

Did you leave a tip?

Darkglasses

Name and shame, that is completely disgraceful.

Oryx

No way would I let anyone physically detain me like that. I would have been the one calling the guards.

By all means let the waiter come with you to the atm if they are that worried. Quite apart from the legalities, you were treated horribly. I know too many people WOULD do a bunk in those circumstances, but they went well beyond what was acceptable in their treatment of you. Trust is in short supply but they should have come up with a better solution than criminalising their customer. I have had instances when the gardai were too busy to come out when we report an actual robbery, to see their time wasted like this is shocking.

skinny90

is lawful to overcharge because their machines didn't work???

Sappa

Pm me the restaurant as I never want to set foot in it with that behaviour,you were treated appaulingly by them and that waiter would have gotten another heavy hand on them if they tried detain me.
You did well to restrain yourself op

ejmaztec

I assumed that the standard procedure in these cases was a spell in the kitchen doing the washing-up?

jor el

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Anyway I sat there for about an half an hour with one of the waiters gripping tightly onto my arm before the manger walked up to me with two members of An Garda Siochana in tow spluttering about me refusing to pay.

This is assault and false imprisonment, and you should press criminal charges against them for it. Even if you had intended to leave without paying, they cannot detain you.

If you got the names of the Gardai that called in, then go to their station and make a formal complaint about the manager and waiter, and tell them you wish to press charges.

Also see a solicitor, because you may need legal consultation which you cannot get here.

Also, do not name the restaurant on thread. This kind of allegation cannot be verified by the owners of this site, and as such cannot be allowed, and naming them could seriously prejudice any legal proceedings you may take against them.

Fenian Army

jor el wrote: »

This is assault and false imprisonment, and you should press criminal charges against them for it. Even if you had intended to leave without paying, they cannot detain you.

If you got the names of the Gardai that called in, then go to their station and make a formal complaint about the manager and waiter, and tell them you wish to press charges.

Also see a solicitor, because you may need legal consultation which you cannot get here.

Defamation too - I assume there were others in the place. People treated like a criminal must have caused a lot of embarrassment.

If I was in the OPS shoes I would have just left the premises or called the Gardaí myself.

NORTH1

Triangla wrote: »

Happened to me in McDonalds, Grafton St.

No cash and was paying by Laser. Laser machines went off line so they apologised and gave me meal for free.

You were treated incredibly badly. The fact that they physically held you and detained you is unreal.

W#nkers!

One of the bigger coffee shops the Blanch centre same thing two coffees and sandwiches went to pay by laser, machine stopped working I had no cash on me, I got the food for free! Name and shame!

jor el

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0222/1224312169807.html

I knew there was one quite recently, where a girl was falsely detained after being accused of shop lifting. Not exactly the same as this case, but not that far off either. The manager accused you of trying to leave without paying, that is defamation, and the physical restraint is assault and imprisonment.

Find witnesses, and if there is any CCTV in the restaurant then you need to get it. Solicitor is the way to go, and act fast. That is if you're at all bothered by all this, as you could of course just forget about it and move on.

jor el

NORTH1 wrote: »

Name and shame!

Do not name and shame. People need to stop asking for this on thread.

clappyhappy

Proper action would have been for a member of staff to inform customers before they order that the cc machine isn't working, then informing that there is an atm across the road.
If they were so worried about you doing a runner why didn't they ask for ur phone or car keys till you came back. How could you sit there for 30mins, I would have completely lost the rag. But I wouldn't leave it at that, that was disgusting behaviour on their side. Sounds crazy.

upandcumming

Sink the boot OP.

Africa

Things to note;
1. Proof of physical restrainment; did the garda see you?
2. CCTV footage, ask the garda to get it, dont ask the restaurant yourself.
3. Wasting of Garda time on their part.
4. Defamation as they clearly didnt want to let you do anything even though you had no way to pay. I assume there was no indication of non working machines.
5. Make formal complaint to the garda. Thats where this will all start.

nikkibikki

noodler wrote: »

Okay:

First of all, my understanding (which someone will confirm or deny soon) is that a Restaurant or any business is entitled to cash as a payment. Also, I would have asked the question before I ordered just in case.

They may be entitled to cash as payment, but if they have a sticker on their door/window saying they accept credit cards, like most restaurants and even corner shops do in this day and age, then I really think there is no need to have to ask every time, I'd find that quite ridiculous TBH! And then if their machine isn't working, the customer should in no way be inconvenienced if they were not made aware prior to dining. How hard is it to have a pre-prepared sign printed to say CC machine out of order, apologies etc etc.... or even hand write a few if they are stuck. No excuse!

This happens regularly in a local chemist, a chain chemist new enough to the town, the laser machine goes offline.... Happend me twice, was just told to come back later or the next day to pay and off I went with my medicine.... They didn't know me from Adam, I must have a really honest face!

noodler

nikkibikki wrote: »

They may be entitled to cash as payment, but if they have a sticker on their door/window saying they accept credit cards, like most restaurants and even corner shops do in this day and age, then I really think there is no need to have to ask every time, I'd find that quite ridiculous TBH! And then if their machine isn't working, the customer should in no way be inconvenienced if they were not made aware prior to dining. How hard is it to have a pre-prepared sign printed to say CC machine out of order, apologies etc etc.... or even hand write a few if they are stuck. No excuse!

Thats a good point.

nikkibikki

Cheers noodler, I have the odd one!

OP, I think everyone is in agreement here, you were treated appallingly. I think I would have lost the rag completely!

CIARAN_BOYLE

elviscostello wrote: »

They sat there holding your arm for half an hour? I think I would have lost patience and forced my out by that stage and just go to the feckin ATM.

I prefered not to do that because breaking a grab is kind of escalation and I didn't want to make things worse, or even if they were to escort me to the ATM it would have been grand.

Miaireland wrote: »

The restaurant near where I live cc machine breaks down often. They put a sign up on all the doors and advise people at time of ordering. If it breaks down in the middle of someones meal and they want to pay be credit card, it is explained to the customer and they are asked to return with the cash when they can.

Thats what I would've expect to happen.

ejmaztec wrote: »

I assumed that the standard procedure in these cases was a spell in the kitchen doing the washing-up?

My dad jokes about that everyime we go out together, he always says I don't have enough money and I'll send you to do the dishes.

jor el wrote: »

Also, do not name the restaurant on thread. This kind of allegation cannot be verified by the owners of this site, and as such cannot be allowed, and naming them could seriously prejudice any legal proceedings you may take against them.

I'm aware of this which is why I didn't name the restaurant in the OP.

Thanks for the support people.

wmpdd3

If this happens in a petrol station, we let the customer off with the petrol and we take a copy of their id and get them to give their name and address. We agree that the person will pay within 3 days, after that we pass the details to the police. Its usually just one banks cards that stop working, so we put up signs as apposed to closing.

Gerard93

A CC machine breaking down sounds ridiculous, my experience with them and we've been using the electronic ones for years and never had trouble with same.
However on an ocassion that a machine is not working, a retail outlet should have a manual imprinter (issued by Credit card Terminal supplier), they can manual imprint your card details on a voucher and then phone for card authorisation, customer signs the voucher gets a copy.

When Credit Card terminal comes back online the voucher is put through by entering card details etc., or far as I am aware it is still possible to lodge the voucher with a normal lodgement.

Disgraceful carry on by the Restaurant/waiter

Skid

Disgraceful behaviour by the Restaurant, and not much better by the Gardaí (who treated the incident as a joke).

That waiter has assaulted you and he has no business dealing with customers in such a thuggish manner.

I would suggest seeing a Solicitor and getting advice on whether you have grounds for taking action against the Waiter for assault and/or defamation.

dudara

I would forget the defamation - because it doesn't sound like there was an accusation of non-payment. Defamation is a subjective matter and harder to prove.

But there definitely was detention of his person, and I take that far more seriously. In addition, they wasted Gardaí time for a civil (not criminal) matter.

rainbowdrop

wmpdd3 wrote: »

If this happens in a petrol station, we let the customer off with the petrol and we take a copy of their id and get them to give their name and address. We agree that the person will pay within 3 days, after that we pass the details to the police. Its usually just one banks cards that stop working, so we put up signs as apposed to closing.

Happened to my friend in a garage (that she's a regular customer of) a few weeks ago. She had put €20 worth of diesel into her car, and when she went in to pay with her laser card, the machine wasn't working. She offered to drive to the nearest banklink (a mile away) and get the money, but no way would the member of staff let her. They told her to leave the car and walk to the banklink, which she couldn't do because she had her 2 children aged 4months and 5years old with her. Luckily, after 5mins of arguing, someone she knew came into the shop and paid the €20 for her.

She was disgusted by this (left a sour taste in my mouth too, as I am also a regular customer of that garage), and went back to complain to the owner the following day. The owner apologised and said that the person who had refused to let her drive to the banklink to get money was a new member of staff and had been afraid to let her go in case they got into trouble.

She's vowed to never buy fuel there again though, as it wasn't her fault the laser machine was broken, yet she was made to feel like a criminal.

ibarelycare

OP are you going to take any action on this?

Zab

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I prefered not to do that because breaking a grab is kind of escalation and I didn't want to make things worse, or even if they were to escort me to the ATM it would have been grand.

I'm having a hard time with the waiter holding your arm for half an hour. Did you ask him to take his hands off you?

slimjimmc

dudara wrote: »

I would forget the defamation - because it doesn't sound like there was an accusation of non-payment. Defamation is a subjective matter and harder to prove.

Defamation would depend on who else was present (the waiter would suffice I guess), but it appears there may indeed have been an accusation of non-payment

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Anyway I sat there for about an half an hour with one of the waiters gripping tightly onto my arm before the manger walked up to me with two members of An Garda Siochana in tow spluttering about me refusing to pay.

.

dudara wrote: »

But there definitely was detention of his person, and I take that far more seriously. In addition, they wasted Gardaí time for a civil (not criminal) matter.

Agreed.
The only legal grounds (S4 Criminal Law Act 1997) the restaurant had for physically detaining the OP was if they reasonably believed he committed an arrestable offence carrying a 5 yr prison term (such as theft) AND was trying to dodge the Gardaí.
However the OP clearly states he did not refuse to pay, in which case no theft was committed, and the detention, imo, was unlawful. The debt is a civil matter and the Gardaí should not have been involved.

EKRIUQ

Sorry but this sounds like an Indian or Chinese restaurant to me, tell me if I'm wrong.

face1990

I think there's some grounds for defamation. The defamation laws here are quite vague, but quite open to interpretation. I don't remember the exact wording, but if what was done to you is likely to lower you in the eyes of a right-thinking member of society, then it's defamation.

Personally, I'd be inclined to think lesser of a person who I saw being held in a restaurant until the gardai arrived (the staff might not have made an open accusation against you, but it probably would have been implied to other customers that you had refused to pay).
It's very subjective though, and depends on whether a solicitor would be bothered trying to argue for it, and if a judge felt it was defamatory.

Either way, they had no right to hold you there especially when it was their fault you couldn't pay up immediately.

Let us know how it goes!

abouttobebanned

Don't see why he's not allowed name the restaurant. People complain about supermarkets and phone companies and all sorts on here and that's allowed. People also give very negative restaurant reviews and that's allowed.

dixiefly

This is not something that you should let rest. I would write a letter to the restaurant. If the restaurant is affiliated to any association I would send a copy to them and also to any local chamber of commerce.

If it was me I would also describe my experience on Trip Advisor.

sandin

Gerard93 wrote: »

A CC machine breaking down sounds ridiculous, my experience with them and we've been using the electronic ones for years and never had trouble with same.
However on an ocassion that a machine is not working, a retail outlet should have a manual imprinter (issued by Credit card Terminal supplier), they can manual imprint your card details on a voucher and then phone for card authorisation, customer signs the voucher gets a copy.

When Credit Card terminal comes back online the voucher is put through by entering card details etc., or far as I am aware it is still possible to lodge the voucher with a normal lodgement.

Disgraceful carry on by the Restaurant/waiter

The imprinters are no longer issued unless requested.

All the restaurant (or any place that a machine has gone down) needed to do is to write down the card number on a piece of paper + exoiry date and amount. Ask customer to sign it and enter it when the machine is back on line.

the new rules (since about 2009) on credit cards protect the customer (card number and expiry date no use without signature/pin number) and the signature protects the establishment.

In this case the restaurant advertised (via signs) that they take cards, you offered to pay by an acceptable means and they refused. The only thing that would worry me is if the restaurant claimed that they told you that the card machine was broken when you came in. - Possibly the OP did not hear it? or chose not to hear it? and in that instance the restaurant would be correct in detaining him for non payment.

If I were defending the restaurant (being devils advocate here), I'd say that no other customer on the night had an issue and that everyone was informed when they walked in. If they could show that everyone else paid by cash without any issues, then the case could be weakened as its your word against theirs and they would be in stronger position as normally 70% of restaurant meals are settled by card. (streamline merchant processors estimate)

This is why the restaurant cannot be named as we only have the side of the story by the OP and whilst it may be 100% true, the fact that it cannot be confirmed by independent witnesses would leave boards open to a defamation action by the restaurant.

Del2005

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Don't see why he's not allowed name the restaurant. People complain about supermarkets and phone companies and all sorts on here and that's allowed. People also give very negative restaurant reviews and that's allowed.

In case the OP goes legal and since it's not a review but a (potential) criminal act by the restaurant posting here could affect the OPs case as well as leaving Boards open to a liable claim if the OP looses or doesn't pursue the mater.

mad m

When reading this I was totally disgusted at the way the restaurant handled it. And I commend the OP as he seemed to keep his cool...Fair play.

cursai

jor el wrote: »

This is assault and false imprisonment, and you should press criminal charges against them for it. Even if you had intended to leave without paying, they cannot detain you.

If you got the names of the Gardai that called in, then go to their station and make a formal complaint about the manager and waiter, and tell them you wish to press charges.

Also see a solicitor, because you may need legal consultation which you cannot get here.

Also, do not name the restaurant on thread. This kind of allegation cannot be verified by the owners of this site, and as such cannot be allowed, and naming them could seriously prejudice any legal proceedings you may take against them.

They CAN detain you if you are or if someone believes you intending to commit an arrestable offence (theft)http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0004.html#sec4Sub Section 4 states, "(4) An arrest other than by a member of the Garda Síochána may only be effected by a person under subsection (1) or (2) where he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects that the person to be arrested by him or her would otherwise attempt to avoid, or is avoiding, arrest by a member of the Garda Síochána." and hold you until the Gardai arrive.
How do you think security guards operate. But the op wasn't intending they cant detain him. Obviously theres no way of the op proving he wasnt intending to pay. Leaving some some of insurance i.e wallet passport etc should have been enough for the manager.
But they CAN detain you for the Gardai.

sandin

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Don't see why he's not allowed name the restaurant. People complain about supermarkets and phone companies and all sorts on here and that's allowed. People also give very negative restaurant reviews and that's allowed.

Del2005 wrote: »

In case the OP goes legal and since it's not a review but a (potential) criminal act by the restaurant posting here could affect the OPs case as well as leaving Boards open to a liable claim if the OP looses or doesn't pursue the mater.

mad m wrote: »

When reading this I was totally disgusted at the way the restaurant handled it. And I commend the OP as he seemed to keep his cool...Fair play.

All comment here are assuming the OP is telling 100% the truth. There are 2 sides to every story, so unless you have an independent witness to confirm everything, the restaurant CANNOT be named unless you want a libel action against you / boards.

Whilst the OP is probably telling the truth, you have to be so bloody careful when making defamatory remarks against a business and without proof, you are going down an expensive losing path.

daenerysstormborn3

Jeez that's crazy! It's happened me a few times over the years, CC machines not working and that sort of thing and each time I left the establishment (without leaving any sort of security behind me, such as my credit card for example) and either went to an ATM or returned the following day to pay in full. I understand that businesses have to be careful in case they get caught out but being held captive like that is disgraceful.

If it happens at a petrol station I use at least once a week, usually on a Friday, they leave me off until the Monday morning because they know I work in the area but don't live there. If it happens in a pub I get lunch in occasionally (they seem to have ongoing problems with their CC machine) they leave me off until the next time I'm in (which might not be until the following week) just as a courtesy to a regular customer. I know neither of these places are obliged to do this and I'm not saying any establishment is obliged to operate this kind of system but it is of course very much appreciated by me and will encourage me to return time and time again given that they are so accommodating and understanding.

slimjimmc

cursai wrote: »

They CAN detain you if you are or if someone believes you intending to commit an arrestable offence (theft)http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0004.html#sec4Sub Section 4 states, "(4) An arrest other than by a member of the Garda Síochána may only be effected by a person under subsection (1) or (2) where he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects that the person to be arrested by him or her would otherwise attempt to avoid, or is avoiding, arrest by a member of the Garda Síochána." and hold you until the Gardai arrive.
How do you think security guards operate. But the op wasn't intending they cant detain him. Obviously theres no way of the op proving he wasnt intending to pay. Leaving some some of insurance i.e wallet passport etc should have been enough for the manager.
But they CAN detain you for the Gardai.

A private citizen can't detain you for intending to commit the offence. The act requires the offence to be in progress or already committed, AND ,in all cases, you might attempt to avoid arrest by a Garda. The "and" is critical since both conditions must be met.
There was no offence since the OP did offer to return with payment, therefore there were no grounds for detention, imo.

However I can see how it looked to the manager, customer exits to ATM never to be seen again! Whether that suspicion was reasonable at the time under the circumstances is subjective.

Broken Bad

The only way I could see something like that happening was if the customer without cash was making a fuss or gave some intention of not paying at all.

Or the original post is just not true.

cursai

slimjimmc wrote: »

A private citizen can't detain you for intending to commit the offence. The act requires the offence to be in progress or already committed, AND ,in all cases, you might attempt to avoid arrest by a Garda. The "and" is critical since both conditions must be met.
There was no offence since the OP did offer to return with payment, therefore there were no grounds for detention, imo.
However I can see how it looked to the manager, customer exits to ATM never to be seen again! Whether that suspicion was reasonable at the time under the circumstances is subjective.

Exactly that's the operative word how it 'looked' to the manager. Who may have overreacted. But he had reason to believe that the OP was committing the offence or in the process of. Its symantics but an acceptable assumption. if I walk into a shop and take a can of.coke and pass the register towards the door its reasonable to assume im in the process or attempting to committ theft and can be arrested. its not a reasonable defence to tell them im intending to pay and shuffle out towards the door saying I'll be back in a jiffy.
But common sense has to prevail.
I don't know which side was lacking.

cursai

slimjimmc wrote: »

A private citizen can't detain you for intending to commit the offence. The act requires the offence to be in progress or already committed, AND ,in all cases, you might attempt to avoid arrest by a Garda. The "and" is critical since both conditions must be met.
There was no offence since the OP did offer to return with payment, therefore there were no grounds for detention, imo.

However I can see how it looked to the manager, customer exits to ATM never to be seen again! Whether that suspicion was reasonable at the time under the circumstances is subjective.

The act states in the 'act' of committing an arrestable offence. Which includes the intent I think its safe to presume.