Brian D'Arcy was right.

karakorak

The name D'Arcy must mean "critic of the church".

First we had Ray D'Arcy this week; now it is Brian D'Arcy.

Good luck to them both. The church needs to wake up.

Doc Farrell

You are aware that he has been a priest for 40 years? In your last post you took a disliking to the Catholic church. In this one you are supporting a priest. So which is it? Perhaps you should sit down and work out what exactly your opinions are instead of just posting hit and run points. If you don't wish to engage in constructive conversation why start a thread?

Run_to_da_hills

karakorak wrote: »

The church needs to wake up.

The people need to wake up.

One cannot teach an old dog new tricks.

Doc Farrell

If you look at the look at the changes that have occurred within the catholic church and within society over the last 2000 years you will find many changes. This is known as history.

Benny_Cake

Doc Farrell wrote: »

If you look at the look at the changes that have occurred within the catholic church and within society over the last 2000 years you will find many changes. This is known as history.

I think Run_to_da_hills accepts that there have been changes in the church given that he thinks Benedict IV is a freemason - you wouldn't have caught Pius XII giving a Masonic handshake - not by a long shot!

As for Brian D'Arcy, none of us know the motivation behind his silencing. I don't recall him writing anything too controversial. He seems like a decent man.

Run_to_da_hills

Deleted by PDN because we don't need another Protestant/Catholic squabble. Please take it to the Protestant/Catholic megathread if you're really looking to go that route.

Doc Farrell

Regarding the idea that the Catholic church has ****ed up this country, it might come as a surprise to anyone who hasn't opened a history book that neither the Scientologists not the Zorastrians were falling over themselves to open hedge schools or hospitals for the poor in previous centuries.
The economy is in a major contraction because a small group of people chose to gamble with everyone's savings in commercial property. However the reasons why the vast majority of this planets population would love to live on this island indicates that we are far from ****ed.
The complete absence of any awareness of how the Irish state has evolved from the time of the Penal laws, and the role that the Catholic church played in those changes, until now, would be deeply depressing if taken seriously.
Finally, if anyone thinks that ordinary Catholics are unfamiliar with the changes occurring both within the church and in society then they are only indicating that they haven't opened a newspaper in the last 20 years. The mind boggles.

Twin-go

Doc Farrell wrote: »

Regarding the idea that the Catholic church has ****ed up this country, it might come as a surprise to anyone who hasn't opened a history book that neither the Scientologists not the Zorastrians were falling over themselves to open hedge schools or hospitals for the poor in previous centuries.

Religion has "****ed" this country.

The Catholic Church made a grab for power by setting up the hospitals and schools. How many of the people that went through their systems came through unscared physically or mentally. How many were brian-washed into following their teachings.

I don't agree with Fr. D'arcy on many things as i don't belief there is a God. But I do not like the way he is been censored. Just prooves the RCC to be a redundant, unethical, barbaric organisation that should be held to account for their crimes like any other group in society.

kippy

Twin-go wrote: »

Religion has "****ed" this country.

The Catholic Church made a grab for power by setting up the hospitals and schools. How many of the people that went through their systems came through unscared physically or mentally. How many were brian-washed into following their teachings.

I don't agree with Fr. D'arcy on many things as i don't belief there is a God. But I do not like the way he is been censored. Just prooves the RCC to be a redundant, unethical, barbaric organisation that should be held to account for their crimes like any other group in society.

People (not religion) have ****ed this country for a variety of reasons.

Religion is just one of many many excuses that people use to hide from and control sectors of society but in general religion is a good thing. It has been warped and twisted in this country and the PEOPLE at the top of the church had really blackened it's name.

Religion is also not the cause of every evil in the world - people are, if they want to use religion as an excuse then that's not religions fault.

Twin-go

kippy wrote: »

People (not religion) have ****ed this country for a variety of reasons.

Religion is just one of many many excuses that people use to hide from and control sectors of society but in general religion is a good thing. It has been warped and twisted in this country and the PEOPLE at the top of the church had really blackened it's name.

Religion is also not the cause of every evil in the world - people are, if they want to use religion as an excuse then that's not religions fault.

Ture - Because People created Religion!

But, Religion is not a good thing.

georgieporgy

Good man yerself yerra

prinz

Twin-go wrote: »

The Catholic Church made a grab for power by setting up the hospitals and schools..

... over many decades and centuries........and primarily because successive regimes running this country abdicated their responsibilies and left a vaccuum. 2012 and they are still at it.

Twin-go wrote: »

But I do not like the way he is been censored...

I believe the word he used himself was censured, not censored.

Benny_Cake

prinz wrote: »

I believe the word he used himself was censured, not censored.

As far as I know he has to submit his articles to a theologian for pre-approved so it is a sort of censorship, I'm not certain of that though.

It's a little strange though, most of his articles are fairly pastoral in nature, the Sundays World is many things, but one of them isn't a serious theological journal! So it's difficult to see what the problem was. He's very well liked and this could be a serious misstep by church authorities.

prinz

Benny_Cake wrote: »

As far as I know he has to submit his articles to a theologian for pre-approved so it is a sort of censorship, I'm not certain of that though..

That's what he said, but he didn't mention if any of the material he had checked by the theologian was rejected, or removed, or changed. So it's all a bit strange. On a side note I'm pretty sure as a journalist he's been submitting his articles to a newspaper editor for pre-approval too.

Benny_Cake wrote: »

It's a little strange though, most of his articles are fairly pastoral in nature, the Sundays World is many things, but one of them isn't a serious theological journal! So it's difficult to see what the problem was. He's very well liked and this could be a serious misstep by church authorities.

Agree completely. It's all a bit odd so far. No mention of what the original complaint was over. No mention of any doctrinal conflicts. No mention of any problems since his stuff has been checked. I wonder were his remarks on censurship censored... and yeah very nice man personally.

I hope it doesn't turn into some saga that is drip fed to us with claims and counter claims. . They (the Vatican/CDF should either come out with the original issue of the complaint or drop it entirely)

eviltwin

Just out of interest what are the sanctions against a priest who ignores the censure and continues as normal?

prinz

eviltwin wrote: »

Just out of interest what are the sanctions against a priest who ignores the censure and continues as normal?

I am not sure about the exact course of internal discipline but I'd imagine the first step is that he could be suspended from his priestly duties.... more serious excommunicated... more serious again defrocked.

georgieporgy

prinz wrote: »

I am not sure about the exact course of internal discipline but I'd imagine the first step is that he could be suspended from his priestly duties.... more serious excommunicated... more serious again defrocked.

No prinz, the most serious is excommunication.

prinz

georgieporgy wrote: »

No prinz, the most serious is excommunication.

Excommunications can be lifted. A laicised priest trying to rejoin is more difficult.

lmaopml

The CDF seem to be looking at the Irish Church among other things currently, it's probably about time too, thanks to Pope Benedict who won't compromise, and is clearly rising to the challenge of his pontificate

- The truth is, that those Priests in the media are very high profile Irish figures, but they may not represent - in their common and public views - the beliefs of the vast majority of Priests who are serving their flocks with very little public exposure, no applause, which seems a little unfair, but then that's the world we live in, where media informs until one decides to search beyond it -

They're not being persecuted, in any way - they're just coming under a spotlight, and not surprising really as they have actually chosen to live under the spotlight in their pastoral affairs, so it's a good thing that the Church is interested in what it's Priests teach.

I think it's a good idea, it's important that Priests represent the Church and most important that they are following their vocation for Christ. Afterall, becoming a Priest is possibly one of the most responsible and graced callings.

The dialogue has become 'two way' now as opposed to just a public column. I'm all for it. I wish Fr. Brian the best, he's a nice guy - but there is nobody alive that can't learn something on their journey....

Benny_Cake

lmaopml wrote: »

The dialogue has become 'two way' now as opposed to just a public column. I'm all for it. I wish Fr. Brian the best, he's a nice guy - but there is nobody alive that can't learn something on their journey....

It would be nice to think that the CDF might learn something from Fr.Brian too though. He has helped innumerable people through his column over the years, people who are often going through great personal anguish and have nowhere else to turn. Until the Vatican comes out and states why they felt this was necessary there will be speculation, and it will appear that yet another popular priest was crushed by the iron fist of Rome-whether that is the case or not. It's all looking very heavy handed at this stage.

lmaopml

Benny_Cake wrote: »

It would be nice to think that the CDF might learn something from Fr.Brian too though. He has helped innumerable people through his column over the years, people who are often going through great personal anguish and have nowhere else to turn. Until the Vatican comes out and states why they felt this was necessary there will be speculation, and it will appear that yet another popular priest was crushed by the iron fist of Rome-whether that is the case or not. It's all looking very heavy handed at this stage.

Well, I guess it would look heavy handed Benny, but Father Brian is not the only Priest who has helped people in every diocese all over the country. The Priests in my diocese are fab, they're getting all excited about the Eucharistic Congress and their excitement is palpable - it's like Easter time extended, a Springtime - What he has got, is a public profile though, so obviously there will be public opinion. I reserve opinion until I know more.

I don't think that it would be a good idea for the CDF to become like the Sunday World and have a column - a media showdown. They're renowned for coming in 'investigating' and really not being liked too much, think 'Medjugorje' etc. - but their task is essential, as essential as pastoral work.

That's not the way I would expect my employer to work if they wanted to talk to me either, to have a media or public showdown - so I understand speculation would be rife, par for the course. An editor of a magazine or journal or column in a newspaper publishes after reviewing, nothing new in that.

Still, I don't think it's a bad thing - the CDF are given a task in the greater community of the Church and no one Priest is the Church, it's worldwide - and everything is an opportunity to learn more and grow, and be part of something really vital. Possibly, Fr. Brian will have something to teach and impart, I imagine he does, that's dialogue - sometimes it takes time for every single persons opinion to resonate, Fr Brian, will be no different than any other Catholic Priest in that regard.

Benny_Cake

lmaopml wrote: »

Well, I guess it would look heavy handed Benny, but Father Brian is not the only Priest who has helped people in every diocese all over the country. The Priests in my diocese are fab, they're getting all excited about the Eucharistic Congress and their excitement is palpable - it's like Easter time extended, a Springtime - What he has got, is a public profile though, so obviously there will be public opinion. I reserve opinion until I know more.

I don't think that it would be a good idea for the CDF to become like the Sunday World and have a column - a media showdown. They're renowned for coming in 'investigating' and really not being liked too much, think 'Medjugorje' etc.

That's not the way I would expect my employer to work if they wanted to talk to me either - so I understand speculation would be rife, par for the course. An editor of a magazine or journal or column in a newspaper publishes after reviewing, nothing new in that.

Still, I don't think it's a bad thing - the CDF are given a task in the greater community of the Church and no one Priest is the Church, it's worldwide - and everything is an opportunity to learn more and grow, and be part of something really vital. Possibly, Fr. Brian will have something to teach and impart, I imagine he does, that's dialogue - sometimes it takes time for every single persons opinion to resonate, Fr Brian, will be no different than any other Catholic Priest in that regard.

I'm not denying the many priests who are doing as good a job as Fr. Brian, just making the point that he reaches people who otherwise might never speak to a priest - in the Sunday World of all places. That should count for something. It might be better if CDF investigations were the exception rather than the rule - which unfortunately seems to be fast becoming the case.

lmaopml

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I'm not denying the many priests who are doing as good a job as Fr. Brian, just making the point that he reaches people who otherwise might never speak to a priest - in the Sunday World of all places. That should count for something. It might be better if CDF investigations were the exception rather than the rule - which unfortunately seems to be fast becoming the case.

Sometimes people give out because they don't act quick enough, and other times people give out because they think they act too soon, or have formed a previous opinion, whether it be a marian apparition or what they think Christ preached; many are influenced by the 'age' they live in - people have opinions, but God has a Church and we're asked to love Christ who is the real presence within it ultimately, and we have the Eucharistic Congress coming up in Ireland, the last time was virtually a lifetime ago, it's a good time to reflect on God's will too - Reaching people is a good thing, reaching people and giving them a challenge doesn't always go down too well, but Christ is not fearsome, he loves sinners, the first approach etc. - it seems that rather than revolting, actually using our talents to live for him is possibly what we should be doing - and there are lots of people doing this very very quietly and will remain unsung for a long time. They're part of the history of the Catholic Church.

There's only providence at play Benny - in any given lifetime that lives in a tumultuous time, and certainly not the first or last...lots of things seem large, but it's good to have perpective and an anchor and some humility to say, 'I don't know..' - let's see.

eviltwin

prinz wrote: »

I am not sure about the exact course of internal discipline but I'd imagine the first step is that he could be suspended from his priestly duties.... more serious excommunicated... more serious again defrocked.

Quite shocked at that when you think of the way greater crimes are treated in comparison. He was only speaking his mind, not encouraging a revolt.

lmaopml

eviltwin wrote: »

Quite shocked at that when you think of the way greater crimes are treated in comparison. He was only speaking his mind, not encouraging a revolt.

Greater crimes come under our very own jurisdiction, under our very own laws of the land - we accuse, put under trial and give guilty or non guilty verdicts for various crimes against humanity that we see as 'wrong' - the same as any terrible crime or the persuit of any criminal.

There is more to think about here than a brief skimming of the surface. Nobody knows anybody by skimming the surface.

user098

Why did Darcy not join the CoI years ago, seems a much better match for his beliefs ?

Benny_Cake

user098 wrote: »

Why did Darcy not join the CoI years ago, seems a much better match for his beliefs ?

Probably because he is a Catholic, who loves the church. What beliefs has he expressed that makes you think the COI would be a better fit?

ISAW

Anyone have any suggestions why an eighteen month old disciplinary statement only became news this week?
Hint: I'd begin with who broke it and what are their other news stories.

So -anyone? -who broke it?

Benny_Cake

The man himself was on Marion Finucanr this morning. I didn't catch all of it, but the action was taken in response to four articles. One was a headline which he didn't write himself, one was a letter in relation to homosexuality (from a reader), so again, he didn't write that. The other articles related to the abuse scandals. Some other points he made:

- He was originally reluctant to write for a tabloid newspaper but Cardinal O'Fiach liked his articles and encouraged him to continue.

- He's had a rough year overall, having lost a brother as well. He spoke to both the Sunday World and the BBC at the time of the original censure and both were very supportive.

- He states that he doesn't consider himself a liberal and fully accepts "the defined doctrine of the church".

Keylem

ISAW wrote: »

Anyone have any suggestions why an eighteen month old disciplinary statement only became news this week?
Hint: I'd begin with who broke it and what are their other news stories.

So -anyone? -who broke it?

If certain media can't find any NEW stories to use as a schtick to bate the Church with, they usually rehash old news, or bring up petty news as I can see this one is! :rolleyes:

Benny_Cake

Keylem wrote: »

ISAW wrote: »

Anyone have any suggestions why an eighteen month old disciplinary statement only became news this week?
Hint: I'd begin with who broke it and what are their other news stories.

So -anyone? -who broke it?

If certain media can't find any NEW stories to use as a schtick to bate the Church with, they usually rehash old news, or bring up petty news as I can see this one is! :rolleyes:

Apparently, The Tablet were the first to print the story.