WASTE OF MONEY ON PORTLAOISE!!!

FANTAPANTS

Think it is some waste of tax payers money pumping millions in looking after theses scum incase they escape!!!!! Put up an electric fence if they want to escape let them fry, Instead of pumping millions in army security into these scum.
I dont think the army in the north guarded the h- block so why do we still have the army looking over these scum??:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Praetorian Saighdiuir

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

Think it is some waste of tax payers money pumping millions in looking after theses scum incase they escape!!!!! Put up an electric fence if they want to escape let them fry, Instead of pumping millions in army security into these scum.
I dont think the army in the north guarded the h- block so why do we still have the army looking over these scum??:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Millions?

Source please.

I love having you around FANTAPANTS :pac:

FANTAPANTS

the money its spent every year to form up a platoon to go in... rations...ammo on range......rations in the prison to feed soldiers then money paid to soldiers to be in their dont know how much but it aint cheap. Better off spending the money on an electric fence fry the whores if they want to escape:)

IRL_Sinister

I approve of this thread.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

the money its spent every year to form up a platoon to go in... rations...ammo on range......rations in the prison to feed soldiers then money paid to soldiers to be in their dont know how much but it aint cheap. Better off spending the money on an electric fence fry the whores if they want to escape:)

They will get rations irrespective of in PL or not

The ranges have to be done anyway

The pay for the soldiers IS cheap

FANTAPANTS

benwavner wrote: »

They will get rations irrespective of in PL or not

The ranges have to be done anyway

The pay for the soldiers IS cheap

Are you on button moon its extra for all this..... the country is in a hole and all this extra money is been spent on "minding" scum. Do your home work please first the rations are not free in the army you have to pay for them if you want them on less your on tactics... the rations are not free in portlaoise cause someone has to pay for them... TAXPAYER!!! yeah ranges are done anyway but have to be done again by every1 who is going to portlaoise so more money... time to do your homework :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Praetorian Saighdiuir

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

Are you on button moon its extra for all this..... the country is in a hole and all this extra money is been spent on "minding" scum. Do your home work please first the rations are not free in the army you have to pay for them if you want them on less your on tactics... the rations are not free in portlaoise cause someone has to pay for them... TAXPAYER!!! yeah ranges are done anyway but have to be done again by every1 who is going to portlaoise so more money... time to do your homework :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Im sorry FANTAPANTS you need to do YOUR homework son. Out of the two of us, which one has formed up and served in Portlaoise?

Im guessing it's not you.

FANTAPANTS

Well i would pull them horns in lad very quick.... been their done that many a time and its all true...MONEY DOWN THE DRAIN!!!!

Praetorian Saighdiuir

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

Well i would pull them horns in lad very quick.... been their done that many a time and its all true...MONEY DOWN THE DRAIN!!!!

Well worth it IMO

Maybe privatise it. :pac:

FANTAPANTS

why privatise it no other country that i know has armed soldiers watching over scum.... the prison officers can do it .... not looking for a war on this mate but its money ill -spent were it could be pumped into temple streets kids hospital instead of scummers:):):)

Praetorian Saighdiuir

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

why privatise it no other country that i know has armed soldiers watching over scum.... the prison officers can do it .... not looking for a war on this mate but its money ill -spent were it could be pumped into temple streets kids hospital instead of scummers:):):)

Ah here, you can say that about anything!

Taking soldiers our of PL is a mistake, not because of who is in there but because if we start taking away the small bit we do in the state, we may aswell take away everthing. Thats where it will end up.

I presume you are an exer, did you do 21 or more or less? Surely as an exer you see the importance of the lads doing the job?

The cost to the taxpayer (as you know) in negligable and barely a speck of the GDP of the state. If you want to post you anger at the waste of taxpayers money, then where is your argument for the bailouts? There is bigger "waste" there. What abour the Goverment salaries?

Stop picking "easy" arguments.

FANTAPANTS

not picking easy fights but its a waste of money and time

Praetorian Saighdiuir

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

not picking easy fights but its a waste of money and time

Are you an ex PDF?

FANTAPANTS

yes exer but i know lads doing it now and its a waste of money time and people

superstoner90

Ah FANTAPANTS, the person with all the fact and figures, But no evidence.

FANTAPANTS

do your research mate... it pops up how much it costs:cool::cool::cool:

Praetorian Saighdiuir

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

yes exer but i know lads doing it now and its a waste of money time and people

Are you ex PDF?


Never mind about "lads doing it now", what decade did you serve in Portlaoise?

FANTAPANTS

2000 ... does it make a diff??? waste of ffffff money

superstoner90

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

2000 ... does it make a diff??? waste of ffffff money

If you have an issue, heres a tissue.

FANTAPANTS

superstoner90 wrote: »

If you have an issue, heres a tissue.

aghhhhhhh you must be 1 of the pump up whores that have a say in the country prob on 200,000 euro a year piss off spa

Praetorian Saighdiuir

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

2000 ... does it make a diff??? waste of ffffff money

Did you not mind when you got paid for the duty?

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

superstoner90

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

aghhhhhhh you must be 1 of the pump up whores that have a say in the country prob on 200,000 euro a year piss off spa

Well arent I a conumdrum.

harley head

Im ex pdf and did duty in the prison in the eighties, back then it was mostly political prisoners that were held there and a military guard was
definatly needed.As the political scene has changed I wonder is a military
presence needed any more.Im sure the prison services are well able to
to deal with these offenders. Is a reason for the army being there that
Im missing?

superstoner90

Aquila wrote: »

For someone who apparently served you dont seem to have dropped any terminology
I wonder lads was he a red arse who didnt pay the piper:pac:

Well that or a troll. :pac:

FANTAPANTS

harley head wrote: »

Im ex pdf and did duty in the prison in the eighties, back then it was mostly political prisoners that were held there and a military guard was
definatly needed.As the political scene has changed I wonder is a military
presence needed any more.Im sure the prison services are well able to
to deal with these offenders. Is a reason for the army being there that
Im missing?

TRUE TRUE!!!!!!

FANTAPANTS

Aquila wrote: »

For someone who apparently served you dont seem to have dropped any terminology
I wonder lads was he a red arse who didnt pay the piper:pac:

Red arse love that term!!!

Dogwatch

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

I dont think the army in the north guarded the h- block so why do we still have the army looking over these scum??:mad::mad::mad::mad:

The BA gaurded HMP Maze. I think it is a similar arrangement to Portlaoise(Soldiers outside and Prison Officers inside)

KickstartHeart

The BA did guard the maize prison. Their failure to follow basic SOP's ended up causing a massive escape..but we'll not get into that...


Why do people think things to do with the military are a 'waste of money'.

Last year single parents cost the state 2 Billion in social welfare. The Defence Forces and what it does costs a hell of a lot less, and actually gives something. If your'e looking to brand things as a 'waste of money' point elsewhere.


There are still very dangerous prisoners in that prison. Ireland is not texas, our police and prison service are primarily not armed. With prisoners like that there needs to be an armed guard. The Defence Forces fills that gap.

Morpheus

I wouldnt pump ANY money into the health system here until a Price Waterhouse Cooper-esque analysis and recommendations bearing white paper was conducted AND enacted JUST like was done with the defence forces back in 99.

The Health service in ireland is a GIANT MONEY SLURPING HORRIBLE C*NT OF A BLACK HOLE.

Fenian Army

KickstartHeart wrote: »

The BA did guard the maize prison. Their failure to follow basic SOP's ended up causing a massive escape..but we'll not get into that...


Why do people think things to do with the military are a 'waste of money'.

Last year single parents cost the state 2 Billion in social welfare. The Defence Forces and what it does costs a hell of a lot less, and actually gives something. If your'e looking to brand things as a 'waste of money' point elsewhere.


There are still very dangerous prisoners in that prison. Ireland is not texas, our police and prison service are primarily not armed. With prisoners like that there needs to be an armed guard. The Defence Forces fills that gap.

I wouldn't slag the Brits off too much its not as if the defense forces prevented all escapes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yOwYh_NUDI

KickstartHeart

Fenian Army wrote: »

I wouldn't slag the Brits off too much its not as if the defense forces prevented all escapes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yOwYh_NUDI

I'm not slagging anyone off.

I'm not suggesting the defence forces prevented all escapes.

John_D80

Portlaoise prison NEEDS an armed gaurd. The military presence acts as a huge deterrent to any attempted escape or assisted break-out. The alternative to the army doing this role is either privatisation (which lets face it is not even a remote possibility) or increasing the amount of PO's on duty 24/7, not to mention arming them!!! Both options would cost the state and taxpayer an awful lot more than having the army fulfil this role.

harley head

John_D80 wrote: »

Portlaoise prison NEEDS an armed gaurd. The military presence acts as a huge deterrent to any attempted escape or assisted break-out. The alternative to the army doing this role is either privatisation (which lets face it is not even a remote possibility) or increasing the amount of PO's on duty 24/7, not to mention arming them!!! Both options would cost the state and taxpayer an awful lot more than having the army fulfil this role.

Good point, when you look at it the shower inside the walls of Portlaoise
prison are more dangerous than ever the political boys were.

arybvtcw0eolkf

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

why privatise it no other country that i know has armed soldiers watching over scum.... the prison officers can do it .... not looking for a war on this mate but its money ill -spent were it could be pumped into temple streets kids hospital instead of scummers:):):)

Excellent idea for saving money - pay PO's probably triple what it costs the tax payer to provide the service by using the army.

You served in Portloaise?.

I bet you weren't feeling so high and mighty at the time when you were putting out your hand for the Portlaoise allowance eh

Maoltuile

John_D80 wrote: »

or increasing the amount of PO's on duty 24/7, not to mention arming them!!! Both options would cost the state and taxpayer an awful lot more than having the army fulfil this role.

Arming them isn't far-fetched, nor should it cost a whole lot (just give 'em surplus Steyrs )

There's one hell of a lot of old DF hands in the prison service who could be tasked to do it.

Rawhead

As a serving PO I can tell you that with the jellyfish that are the management in our job I would never ever carry a gun. They are trying to sack officers for cursing at the dirty lags, never mind shooting the bastards.
Its not the cost, lack of expertise or willingness to arm PO's that is the problem but the lack of educated, competent and brave leaders/managers.

Leave it to the PDF, they do a good job and it's not like they really have much else to do.

John_D80

Maoltuile wrote: »

Arming them isn't far-fetched, nor should it cost a whole lot (just give 'em surplus Steyrs )

I was referring to the fact that I believe it would cost so much more in terms or pay and overtime to have extra armed PO's in the prison.

John_D80

Rawhead wrote: »

........they do a good job and it's not like they really have much else to do.

Is this meant to be funny or are you actually serious? Or trolling even?

Zambia

Not many European countries use their army to police prisons.

In reality it should be phased out and the armed ability given to another non military body.

Privatisation (including armed )as nasty as it sounds should not be discounted.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Zambia wrote: »

Not many European countries use their army to police prisons.

In reality it should be phased out and the armed ability given to another non military body.

Privatisation (including armed )as nasty as it sounds should not be discounted.

Any suggestions? Im fairly sure private armed security firms will not be introduced here.

Zambia

Why not in essence they use the same raw material as the state. Why would they not be introduced? They exist all over Europe in essence its just a matter of regulation.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Regulation, in theory would not be a problem.

I would imagine the biggest problem would be the huge list of cons that could arise out of having private armed security companies operating in the state. They could obviously be used for quite a number of things here and could be quite a money spinner for the operators but I cant realistically see any Administration authorising the use of these companies.

As soon as something goes wrong it would give the Government such a headache that it would not be worth it to them to give them the green light.

minidazzler

Zambia wrote: »

Not many European countries use their army to police prisons.

In reality it should be phased out and the armed ability given to another non military body.

Privatisation (including armed )as nasty as it sounds should not be discounted.

Looking at the costs for one.

Soldier will get his basic pay + Portlaoise money which costs for arguments sake 50 euro extra a week per soldier. We'll presume there are 30 on PL Detail at all times (in rotating shifts) throughout the year. That's 1500 a week and 78000 a year.

Now, hire a private security firm to do it. The contract goes for tender, and to have 10 men on at all times, rotating the shifts, so having 40+ staff just for PL (relief staff included), you'll be paying each staff member €32000 a year given they are armed security in a prison. That's around 1.3 million euro, and that's just the staff on the walls, multiply it by 1.5 to get how much the company would be paid, and then add VAT on top of that. You're talking 3 million + euro a year when everything is called into play. And lets be fair, it would be granted to some TD's Buddy.


The Security aspect.

The soldiers detailed to PL are there for a few weeks at a time and then rotated out, so there is no time for anyone to find out who they are, and blackmail them to do something they shouldn't.

You have a private security firm, they're gonna have the same old boys, getting the same old wages, all of whom would live within 30 miles of Portlaoise and who could with time be identified and easily targeted for blackmail to either take stuff in or look the other way. And besides that, who decides who is hired and put on the wall? You would have a list of wannabe rambo's as long as your arm applying for the job, the Garda, Army and Jailer rejects would show up in droves and a lot of them would end up getting hired.


And having jailers do it would have more issues than a Private Security firm. Procuring weapons, picking staff, putting them through psychometric tests, weeding out the weirdo's, training them in weapons handling. And then they have the same security issues to deal with, as they currently do, but now they have weapons. And you'd have to pay the PO's extra allowances, probably far more than the army, just because it's not part of what they signed up for.

The system currently in place is pretty damn cheap and probably the safest with the constant rotation. Though, maybe one thing to do which I don't know is currently done, is to ensure that the brother of any soldier on the wall is not in the prison.

Disclaimer: I am neither a soldier nor a jailer, just looking at this from a logical point of view

Zambia

minidazzler wrote: »

You're talking 3 million + euro a year when everything is called into play. And lets be fair, it would be granted to some TD's Buddy.

Sorry that should be a thing of the past by now if the state cat stop that all of this falls flat.


The Security aspect.

minidazzler wrote: »

The soldiers detailed to PL are there for a few weeks at a time and then rotated out, so there is no time for anyone to find out who they are, and blackmail them to do something they shouldn't.

The staff should be trained to protect this information the PO's I assume do.

minidazzler wrote: »

You have a private security firm, they're gonna have the same old boys, getting the same old wages, all of whom would live within 30 miles of Portlaoise and who could with time be identified and easily targeted for blackmail to either take stuff in or look the other way. And besides that, who decides who is hired and put on the wall? You would have a list of wannabe rambo's as long as your arm applying for the job, the Garda, Army and Jailer rejects would show up in droves and a lot of them would end up getting hired.

If the state has proper vetting for security licences and security companies this should not be an issue. Lets face it the Garda have not recruited in years and the Army does not have the space to take up all decent candidates. Many of your "rejects" could be perfectly capable staff.

You cant not do something because you are in mortal fear of hiring idiots.

minidazzler wrote: »

And having jailers do it would have more issues than a Private Security firm. Procuring weapons, picking staff, putting them through psychometric tests, weeding out the weirdo's, training them in weapons handling. And then they have the same security issues to deal with, as they currently do, but now they have weapons. And you'd have to pay the PO's extra allowances, probably far more than the army, just because it's not part of what they signed up for.

They are Prison Officers it what they do. This extra money for changing Shoelace colour in the civil service has to go to.

minidazzler wrote: »

The system currently in place is pretty damn cheap and probably the safest with the constant rotation.
Disclaimer: I am neither a soldier nor a jailer, just looking at this from a logical point of view

Logically the Army are not prison guards for the state they have their own jobs to attend to.

John_D80

Zambia wrote: »

Not many European countries use their army to police prisons.

In reality it should be phased out and the armed ability given to another non military body.

Privatisation (including armed )as nasty as it sounds should not be discounted.

The OP's original point and the thread topic is that its a waste of money having the army guard portlaoise prison. So your solution is to spend more money on a private security firm to do the job that the DF do very very well for a relative pittance?

It would cost an absolute fortune by comparison. The DF dont get paid shift allowance, night duty allowance, weekend pay or overtime. At least some of which would be demanded by any private security firm. And in fairness they would be entitled to it.

Even outside of the financial aspect its not even an arguable point in my eyes. The defence forces have more training for this role and more experience than anyone else. The DF at times operate under conditions and work pracrices that would be considered medieval by some but they do it because its their duty and its what they have been told to do. In the DF you have a well trained force that is always dependable and will never strike or even threaten to (PO's take note ). They'd be cheap at twice the price considering the service they provide.

Zambia

John its a prison the fact remains it should not be the RDF's job to do it.

The army should not be used as cheap labour for other Government departments.

The initial point that its a waste of money housing them well you dont really have an option there.

John_D80

This might take me a while but here goes.....

Zambia wrote: »

John its a prison the fact remains it should not be the RDF's job to do it.

RDF? The RDF, to the best of my knowledge have not been involved in ATCP duties since the 1970's and have never been posted to portlaoise prison. One of the primary roles of the PDF however is ATCP.

Zambia wrote: »

The army should not be used as cheap labour for other Government departments.

Why not? I thought this whole thread was about how the army doing this job is a waste of money. But now they are being called 'cheap labour'? Which is it? Are they a waste of money or cheap labour? To get an even remotely comparable level of security in the country's only high security prison would cost an exorbitant amount of money in wages alone, never mind the ancillary costs.

Which brings us onto your next point.....

Zambia wrote: »

The initial point that its a waste of money housing them well you dont really have an option there.

You're dead right. If the cost of housing a security element in portlaoise prison is examined we are left with only one viable option to provide that security.

I would be very surprised to learn if you are currently or have ever served in the DF as you obviously dont know the security requirements involved.

So without compromising operational security I will attempt to counter this statement. Regardless of who is gaurding the prison, they will have to be accomodated, whether its over a period of days or even hours. There must at all times be a standby element ready to deploy in the event of a serious incident. I'm sure the PO's must have a similar arrangement for smaller scale incidents. If you want to save money by leaving these guys in an unheated room with no electricity or whatever or better yet leave them out in the rain with no accomodation then go right ahead. A private security firm or the prison service wouldn't be too long complaining about it, whereas the Army will shut up and get on with it because they are told to. The DF involvement in securing the prison goes far beyond the guys on the wall and on the roof as it would and must do for anyone you propose to replace them. But to say that its a drain to accomodate them is madness when it would cost substantially more to house and accomodate their replacements is misguided in the extreme.

And remember you are dealing with an organisation that has consistently met and exceeded its expectations of cost saving and energy efficency! The prison service or any security firm cannot make that claim as easily.

No where else in the public sector and certainly not in the private sector will you find an organisation that will feed a man for 24 hrs on 5 euro a day (roughly).


You my friend need to do your homework. And while you're at it, tell the OP to the same.

Kat1170

John_D80 wrote: »

No where else in the public sector and certainly not in the private sector will you find an organisation that will feed a man for 24 hrs on 5 euro a day (roughly).

Think that was cut to about €3.50 recently :o

Manic Moran

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

aghhhhhhh you must be 1 of the pump up whores that have a say in the country prob on 200,000 euro a year piss off spa

Right, red card for that one.

galwaycyclist

John_D80 wrote: »

RDF? The RDF, to the best of my knowledge have not been involved in ATCP duties since the 1970's and have never been posted to portlaoise prison. One of the primary roles of the PDF however is ATCP.

Hmmm off topic but I think the Air India disaster would be in there as an occasion when the FCA was activated in an ATCP role. But I digress