does sport science make us slower ???

peter kern

http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/toplists/inout=o/age=n/season=0/sex=M/all=y/legal=A/disc=MAR/detail.html

have a look at the fastest europeans and you will see some of the fastest european marathon times by europeans where run 1985.

The European Marathon record is almost 9 years old.

I am sure some will say it works for age groupers and that triathlon is getting faster and faster ( the current Irish duathlon champ is 42 ;-)

So where does sport science, garmins, polars , compresion tights have an proven positive impact ?

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/toplists/inout=o/age=n/season=0/sex=M/all=y/legal=A/disc=MAR/detail.html

have a look at the fastest europeans and you will see some of the fastest european marathon times by europeans where run 1985.

The European Marathon record is almost 9 years old.

I am sure some will say it works for age groupers and that triathlon is getting faster and faster ( the current Irish duathlon champ is 42 ;-)

So where does sport science, garmins, polars , compresion tights have an proven positive impact ?

All you need to know is where your towel is

peter kern

Now I understand where I went wrong . I never used a towel ...... as i always went from swim gear into cycle gear to practice transitions, ;-)

sconhome

I would have thought that the 80's & 90's were potentially the golden era of sports chemistry.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

Now I understand where I went wrong . I never used a towel ...... as i always went from swim gear into cycle gear to practice transitions, ;-)

A paraphrasing of the infamous Ford Prefect

(note they may not have been popular in German)

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

Now I understand where I went wrong . I never used a towel ...... as i always went from swim gear into cycle gear to practice transitions, ;-)

Ignore me I'm mostly harmless

peter kern

amphkingwest wrote: »

I would have thought that the 80's & 90's were potentially the golden era of sports chemistry.

I agree to some extend but in the 80 s how poor was ireland did they really have money for drugs ????

sconhome

Not to take away from any performance from the time, you have to account for pre WADA records with a slightly skewed view.

As a firm believer in hard work making the biggest improvements, the gadgets and science are part of the toolbox to working smarter in the longer term.

If we look at Ireland independently, yes there were some fantastic individual results in the period, I would believe certainly through hard work & dedication. There were whole countries whose sports programs developed sports chemistry to a new art and when you look at the raft of improvements or records across the board we have a fair idea as to what was going on.

Re cost of drugs, they could afford PCP for the cattle.

peter kern

yes but interestingly those countries which were best in doing drugs have actually v few top marathon runners.
Also i think its fair the say they were much more successful with females than with males.

and how many people do you think won the tour legally in the last 12 years ?

Alos in marathon running it was also the depth in the 80s ie the guys who where sub 2.30 runner that was way higher in the Usa and Ireland so do we think they also took drugs?

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

and how many people do you think won the tour legally in the last 12 years ?

Theres this one guy who won it 7 times . . .

TriWazza

peter kern wrote: »

http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/toplists/inout=o/age=n/season=0/sex=M/all=y/legal=A/disc=MAR/detail.html

have a look at the fastest europeans and you will see some of the fastest european marathon times by europeans where run 1985.

The European Marathon record is almost 9 years old.

I am sure some will say it works for age groupers and that triathlon is getting faster and faster ( the current Irish duathlon champ is 42 ;-)

So where does sport science, garmins, polars , compresion tights have an proven positive impact ?

I personally believe it has nothing to do with Pharmacology or sports science and everything to do with socioeconomics. I also think that the dominance of African athletes in Endurance running has deterred potentially fantastic runners from ever entering the sport. Triathlon I believe will continue to get faster and it will attract a deeper and greater talent than we have seen to date. Its already happening ... take for example Lukas Vezbicas.

I recall Alaster Craig pointing out about the participation levels of endurance runners in eastern African nations and how for many its the only chance for a better life. If your up against a guys running to feed his family who do you think is going to win that foot race?

peter kern

the gadgets and science are part of the toolbox to working smarter in the longer term.

have you seen the documentary about brother colm?
It sound like he did not really have that much of an idea about times hr etc.
But he sees a lot with his eyes and just by looking at his athletes, and the way he works with them is amazing.

MyWebPersona

On the topic of sports science I see Beetroot juice is the new EPO

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

yes but interestingly those countries which were best in doing drugs have actually v few top marathon runners.
Also i think its fair the say they were much more successful with females than with males.

and how many people do you think won the tour legally in the last 12 years ?

Alos in marathon running it was also the depth in the 80s ie the guys who where sub 2.30 runner that was way higher in the Usa and Ireland so do we think they also took drugs?

For amateurs i think the biggest difference is in terms of body image and the definition accepted by and large by society as to what is a normal weight. People are just fatter now - amateur athletes and "normal" people alike.

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

Theres this one guy who won it 7 times . . .

I heard the only reason he won it the seventh time was because he had a Polar RX5.

tunney

MyWebPersona wrote: »

On the topic of sports science I see Beetroot juice is the new EPO

Ah gotta love rehashed years old research - the quantities of beetroot juice required to get gains mean effective "rooting" (the term given to beetroot juicing) means its cheaper to take EPO. Plus its easier to get caught "rooting" as it shows up in a urine test so much easier, mainly cause it turns your wee red in the quantities required to get an effect.

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

the gadgets and science are part of the toolbox to working smarter in the longer term.

have you seen the documentary about brother colm?
It sound like he did not really have that much of an idea about times hr etc.
But he sees a lot with his eyes and just by looking at his athletes, and the way he works with them is amazing.

No I missed the program, heard it was very good.

His methods would seem to be all about hard work & dedication coupled with a good trainers eye for talent & detail. I would be suggesting the gadgets etc are a part of the way to successfully achieving an individuals maximum potential while stressing that they are no replacement for hard work.

Except where the individual has access to a Polar RCX5, and knows how to use it.

peter kern

MyWebPersona wrote: »

On the topic of sports science I see Beetroot juice is the new EPO

its now baked beetroots i think

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

its now baked beetroots i think

Taken as a suppository.......

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

yes but interestingly those countries which were best in doing drugs have actually v few top marathon runners.
Also i think its fair the say they were much more successful with females than with males.

I think it is common enough understanding now that the female body reacted more to increased levels of growth hormones and male hormones than male bodies did. Hence why power sports saw bigger results (& women) or why agility sports were more successful where hormones were controlled to slow the onset of puberty

peter kern wrote: »

Alos in marathon running it was also the depth in the 80s ie the guys who where sub 2.30 runner that was way higher in the Usa and Ireland so do we think they also took drugs?

The answer to this is simply the depth of the gene pool for natural selection. A huge population pool of (?) 500m versus 4m is always going to produce a far bigger talent pool for success.

peter kern

amphkingwest wrote: »

No I missed the program, heard it was very good.

His methods would seem to be all about hard work & dedication coupled with a good trainers eye for talent & detail. I would be suggesting the gadgets etc are a part of the way to successfully achieving an individuals maximum potential while stressing that they are no replacement for hard work.

Except where the individual has access to a Polar RCX5, and knows how to use it.

he dosnt really use hr and gamins and labs so you could not really suggest they are part of it. the kenayan success is much more based on very hard work while listening to your body, and they still get faster for some reason.
Interestingly like Sutton he has worked with greyhounds at some stage.
Anyway here we are most likely at the real truth. I sniff around a lot at running clubs swim clubs and I have not seen a real top coach in Ireland . though not suprised while the dundrum running club is pretty decent.
I have seen quite a few high level coaches too and there is not a single one in ireland close to the Charisma of Father Colm or Sutton.

Its also not a big suprise why In the bundesliga Dortumd beat Munich the 2nd time running for the title , with much less money then munich. they have a world class coach ( who one day might be as good as Ferguson) while bayern has an good coach that cant motivate his athletes for boring games. while they have on paper much better players and Klinsman built the most ott sport science centre when he was coaching in munich.

peter kern

The answer to this is simply the depth of the gene pool for natural selection. A huge population pool of (?) 500m versus 4m is always going to produce a far bigger talent pool for success.[/QUOTE]

Ps i think you misunderstood me I said both and Ireland and the Us had a much higher level of sub 2,30 Marathon runner than nowa days .( i guess thats where tunney comes in with his remarks and x labs.
besides new zealnd with 4 m people will most likely have 6 atheltes in triathlon at the olympics while the USA with 300 m inhabitants will have 5. Interestingly New zealand also had one of the tri coach wizzards in john hellermans .that built up some of the best programs in triathlon.

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

Its also not a big suprise why In the bundesliga Dortumd beat Munich the 2nd time running for the title , with much less money then munich. they have a world class coach ( who one day might be as good as Ferguson) while bayern has an good coach that cant motivate his athletes for boring games. while they have on paper much better players and Klinsman built the most ott sport science centre when he was coaching in munich.

Bundesliga, Dortmund & Munich are these German triathletes?

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

Taken as a suppository.......

dave stop it you had me already spit my tea twice today ;-)

but I still dodnt get the ford joke

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

he dosnt really use hr and gamins and labs so you could not really suggest they are part of it. the kenayan success is much more based on very hard work while listening to your body, and they still get faster for some reason.
Interestingly like Sutton he has worked with greyhounds at some stage.

One could argue that the kenyan success is more based on the practice of throwing eggs against the wall. Throw enough eggs against the wall and eventually one won't break.

Similarly throw enough Kenyans at uber hard training, eventually you'll find some that won't get broken and there ya go - a world beater. As AK touched on its the motivation thats required - in Kenyan Elite runners can support themselves and their extended families. In Western countries Elite runners get supported by their families.

TriWazza

peter kern wrote: »

the gadgets and science are part of the toolbox to working smarter in the longer term.

have you seen the documentary about brother colm?
It sound like he did not really have that much of an idea about times hr etc.
But he sees a lot with his eyes and just by looking at his athletes, and the way he works with them is amazing.

Yeah I saw that alright - I think it alludes to a number of key points often ignored by sports scientists and coaches alike and that's the importance of functional movement and also the person behind the athlete - I think in triathlon circles Darren Smith may be a head of the game.

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

One could argue that the kenyan success is more based on the practice of throwing eggs against the wall. Throw enough eggs against the wall and eventually one won't break.

Similarly throw enough Kenyans at uber hard training, eventually you'll find some that won't get broken and there ya go - a world beater. As AK touched on its the motivation thats required - in Kenyan Elite runners can support themselves and their extended families. In Western countries Elite runners get supported by their families.

pretty much every federation throws eggs against the wall thats elite sport and Darwinism poor

and your 2nd point supposrts my point nicely that its not about sport science its about motivation ;-)
so far nobody really has made a point for science ;-) ;-)

peter kern

TriWazza wrote: »

Yeah I saw that alright - I think it alludes to a number of key points often ignored by sports scientists and coaches alike and that's the importance of functional movement and also the person behind the athlete - I think in triathlon circles Darren Smith may be a head of the game.

and isnt if funney how DR. Smith through out power meter dosnt care about lab testing .......

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

so far nobody really has made a point for science

If fairness, where do you start?

Genetic selection from pre birth, through juvenile growth and development, having the perfect combination of cellular structures optimum haemoglobin and blood environment, perfect lung capacity, O2 capacity, cellular respiration. How do you forecast how a child is going to perfom at peak maturity? You can't.

At the end of the day its either a set of very lucky circumstances that gets the 'perfect' child interested in the sport that they are most likely to achieve most in or you are interfering with natural selection which some fellow tried in the 1940's in central Europe. It didn't go down too well.

sconhome

So to give an answer to the thread topic:

Does sports science make us slower?

Probably through (over)analysis causing paralysis.

Fazz

amphkingwest wrote: »

So to give an answer to the thread topic:

Does sports science make us slower?

Probably through (over)analysis causing paralysis.

Took the words right out of my mouth.
I was an over thinker but gradually have managed to reduce that thankfully.
Training is definitely more enjoyable as a result.

Peter is quite a promoter of the training/work doing the talking, and no need for these gadgets/power meters etc as they aren't going to make you faster.
It's you that can do that.

I would add one footnote though.

I believe the use of some gadgets at some times is a great tool to accurately monitor or gauge an athletes conditions and areas of improvement.

Yes a good coach may be able to understand exactly what an athlete needs from working closely with them and paying attention, but similarly in some cases the observation of a HR or Watt levels at certain intensities or durations can no doubt speed up the progress and enable the coach and/or athlete to then train more effectively.

I do absolutely agree that these gadgets should only be tools used on occasion or for a small % of the time.
It's nice to track all this info, but the only way to improve is by doing the work - be it easy, medium and hard, to improve each athlete in the areas they need improvements in most.


Over-analysis seems to remove some of the enjoyment factor, training itself should always be a high or enjoyable experience in my opinion.
Yes we have days where we feel like crap, or are slower in the pool etc, but this is all understandable due to tiredness or whatever and still shouldn't remove the enjoyment factor I think.
At least that's my approach anyway.