Minister Coveney confirms that there will be no new AEOS scheme for farmers

theaceofspies

"Minister for Agriculture Simon Coveney has confirmed in today’s Farmers Journal that there will be no Agri-Environment Options Scheme in 2012. The news has been greeted with disappointment and anger by farmers’ groups and public representatives.
It means that 14,000 farmers whose REPS contract finished after May 1st last years will now have no Agri-Environment Scheme this year.
Around 1,300 of those farmers are based in Mayo"

Like the culling of teachers to schools because their counterparts pay is ring-fenced through "Broke Park"; likewise the farming community must make it's gesture towards the deal signed at "De Headquarters". No fear of any real efficiencies in the Department however just the usual waffle and lip service to the unions.

Pharaoh1

This is no surprise of course but its a pity that the Minister couldn't be straight with farmers a few months ago and tell them the truth - there's no money so there will be no scheme.

At our Beef Discussion group meeting the other week there was a surprisingly large number of farmers who raised the issue of the ending of REPS. The general feeling of the meeting was that AEOS was a mickey mouse scheme - even the Teagasc advisor agreed.

A good number of them were really genuinely concerned about how they were going to manage without the REPS cash when it goes.
Of course there's no way of knowing anyone's personal circumstances are but I got the feeling that many of them had fairly substantial REPS 4 payments and were very dependent on it.
On guy said that without an equivalent replacement income by way of increased profit he would be going part-time.
Another admitted that the main reason he joined the BTAP was that without REPS he simply had to become profitable.

A lot of these guys were never beef finishers and there might have been a fair few of them operating suckler herd selling weanlings before the 10 or 22 month premia were claimed and maybe without quota so SFP is probably small. Indeed 8-10k REPS might well exceed their SFP.

It was something I hadn't really heard before at any of these meetings.

Wondering is this just my area or is it a widespread issue. Farmers don't tend to talk too much about money issues at these gatherings but I did get a sense of real worry among quite a few.

I received my last REPS 3 payment in Sept 2010 but for a small part timer dropping a couple of k per year while not pleasant is not life changing for me.
Any thoughts?

theaceofspies

Indeed.
The point of my post is that people need to realise that all these cuts/new taxes (take your pick from many) are being imposed because the Croke Park deal is sacrosant.
This can't be right/fair/substainable for all other sectors of society whether it be farmers or householders who are now subsidising this scam.
The salary of your average County Manager is now greater than the King of Spain - this is a monetary fact.

Pharaoh1

theaceofspies wrote: »

Indeed.
The point of my post is that people need to realise that all these cuts/new taxes (take your pick from many) are being imposed because the Croke Park deal is sacrosant.
This can't be right/fair/substainable for all other sectors of society whether it be farmers or householders who are now subsidising this scam.
The salary of your average County Manager is now greater than the King of Spain - this is a monetary fact.

Not fair of course but then again those that have most power will protect and insulate themselves. That's just the way it is.
Farmers cannot just say "Hands off our REPS/AEOS they constitute part of our income" in the same way as the unions have to date been able to say "hands off our allowances they are part of our overall package and untouchable because of Croke Park".
IFA don't seem to worried anyway - the SFP is the big fish for them.

Of course whether all allowances will remain untouched for much longer is debatable.

MaxPower131

theaceofspies wrote: »

Indeed.
The point of my post is that people need to realise that all these cuts/new taxes (take your pick from many) are being imposed because the Croke Park deal is sacrosant.
This can't be right/fair/substainable for all other sectors of society whether it be farmers or householders who are now subsidising this scam.
The salary of your average County Manager is now greater than the King of Spain - this is a monetary fact.

If we got rid of every single garda, teacher etc. the country would still be screwed. Thats what happens when you take on the debt of private banks/property developers/speculators.

Blaming frontline workers like teachers for the abolition of AEOS is just straight out of the Sunday Independent propaganda machine.

rancher

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

Not fair of course but then again those that have most power will protect and insulate themselves. That's just the way it is.
Farmers cannot just say "Hands off our REPS/AEOS they constitute part of our income" in the same way as the unions have to date been able to say "hands off our allowances they are part of our overall package and untouchable because of Croke Park".
IFA don't seem to worried anyway - the SFP is the big fish for them.

Of course whether all allowances will remain untouched for much longer is debatable.

Don't think farmers are hurting enough yet because of the good prices, I couldn't get anyone to come with me to meet politicians anyway.
Wonder willl they wake up when the land tax is being introduced.

theaceofspies

rancher wrote: »

Don't think farmers are hurting enough yet because of the good prices, I couldn't get anyone to come with me to meet politicians anyway.

If dairy/beef prices fall back and there is only the SFP to support farm incomes we'll have casualties especially among the smaller farmers who tend to be more dependant on schemes like REPS. They'll be no safety cushion then.

Pharaoh1

rancher wrote: »

Don't think farmers are hurting enough yet because of the good prices, I couldn't get anyone to come with me to meet politicians anyway.
Wonder willl they wake up when the land tax is being introduced.

Whatever about dairying I would imagine the proportion of beef farmers that are making a proper profit from their enterprise is still relatively small with increased costs going a long way to eroding the price gains.
Indeed finishers will probably be worse off this year as their margin (selling - buying price) won't really increase to cover higher feed/fertiliser costs.
By proper profit I mean the precise amount that your accountant declares for tax purposes minus direct payments and off farm income and not the Journal favourites like gross margin per ha or margin over feed.

I suppose it is still all about the SFP for many and as long as that stays relatively intact you will find it hard to get anyone to protest.

rancher

theaceofspies wrote: »

If dairy/beef prices fall back and there is only the SFP to support farm incomes we'll have casualties especially among the smaller farmers who tend to be more dependant on schemes like REPS. They'll be no safety cushion then.

If its so important why aren't more farmers keen to put their case to the politicians, TD's are just following the line of least resistance. Farmers are on the Titanic while the public servants,TDs bankers and social welfare recipients are in the lifeboats. As you say, it'll really hit us when the SFP is sorted. On British farming forum they're expecting a milk price of 21p/l (26c/l) in may, so the race to the bottom has started.... sorry about the rant

bbam

rancher wrote: »

If its so important why aren't more farmers keen to put their case to the politicians, TD's are just following the line of least resistance. Farmers are on the Titanic while the public servants,TDs bankers and social welfare recipients are in the lifeboats. As you say, it'll really hit us when the SFP is sorted. On British farming forum they're expecting a milk price of 21p/l (26c/l) in may, so the race to the bottom has started.... sorry about the rant

I think it's unfair and disingenuous to put the unemployed and general public servants into the same category as TD's and Bankers.. No matter the hype very few of the 400,000 unemployed have chosen the unemployed route as a profession to see out the recession, it's also unfair on teachers, guards and hospital staff..

I appreciate you have a point to make but it would be better made and perhaps listened to if you were more specific in your comments...

There are those out there draining unnecessary money from the public purse, you just need to be less generalistic... It's a bit like when non farming folk say that all farmers are lazy and reap in huge premiums from Europe so they don't have to farm properly and that we made a fortune selling sites during the boom..

Tipp Man

bbam wrote: »

I think it's unfair and disingenuous to put the unemployed and general public servants into the same category as TD's and Bankers.. No matter the hype very few of the 400,000 unemployed have chosen the unemployed route as a profession to see out the recession, it's also unfair on teachers, guards and hospital staff..
..

Are you aware of the typical salary of a teacher?
Are you aware of the amount of hours teaching they do?
Are you aware of the number of weeks holidays they have every year?

This country will continue to be ruined whilst this "frontline" rubbish is spouted by everybody - a shure the poor teachers and nurses - god help em

Fact is the vast vast majority of our very large education and health budgets is spent on wages - over 80% in both departments

So the only reason our education and health services are suffering is because too much bloody money is being spent on wages

MaxPower131

Tipp Man wrote: »

Are you aware of the typical salary of a teacher?
Are you aware of the amount of hours teaching they do?
Are you aware of the number of weeks holidays they have every year?

This country will continue to be ruined whilst this "frontline" rubbish is spouted by everybody - a shure the poor teachers and nurses - god help em

Fact is the vast vast majority of our very large education and health budgets is spent on wages - over 80% in both departments

So the only reason our education and health services are suffering is because too much bloody money is being spent on wages

Obviously a member of the FF/FG brigade. No mention of the cartel of lowlifes that have destroyed our country.

Oh and by the way our "large" education budget is a joke by OECD standards.

bbam

Tipp Man wrote: »

Are you aware of the typical salary of a teacher?
Are you aware of the amount of hours teaching they do?
Are you aware of the number of weeks holidays they have every year?

This country will continue to be ruined whilst this "frontline" rubbish is spouted by everybody - a shure the poor teachers and nurses - god help em

Fact is the vast vast majority of our very large education and health budgets is spent on wages - over 80% in both departments

So the only reason our education and health services are suffering is because too much bloody money is being spent on wages

In general the job done by nurses and teachers is an exceptional one.. And I have no problems with their pay rates.. No doubt there are efficiencies that need to be delivered that the stupid Croke Park Agreement isn't reaching to..

However in the likes of Health the money is being waisted much higher up the food chain than the front line service providers... Mid to upper end management and general bad management is where the black hole is..

Personally I'm happy paying for a top level health and education system... we should be pushing for higher level services rather than the race to the bottom and go back to the services we had in the 1950's.. :rolleyes:

This Irish mentality of having a dig at those who are better paid is sickening and I'm sitting back listening to the hype around farming and increased farm incomes... that same dumb mentality will see calls for land tax, tax on out buildings, and any other tax for framing that can be thought up..

rancher

bbam wrote: »

I think it's unfair and disingenuous to put the unemployed and general public servants into the same category as TD's and Bankers.. No matter the hype very few of the 400,000 unemployed have chosen the unemployed route as a profession to see out the recession, it's also unfair on teachers, guards and hospital staff..

I appreciate you have a point to make but it would be better made and perhaps listened to if you were more specific in your comments...

There are those out there draining unnecessary money from the public purse, you just need to be less generalistic... It's a bit like when non farming folk say that all farmers are lazy and reap in huge premiums from Europe so they don't have to farm properly and that we made a fortune selling sites during the boom..

Right I'll be more specific, all your incomes went up during the boom in line with the builders, solicitors, etc, benchmarking it was called,where is it now, has your income come down in line with builders, solicitors etc.....don't think so, the only income boom farmers had were those who sold land, and there wasn't many of those. Agriculture is a major contributor to the economy, yet the farmers and self employed income is being decimated to ensure the unemployed, public servants, TDs and bankers pay isn't hit. Farmers have been over penalised and we still have to pay the same extra taxes as you lot

bbam

Who exactly is "you lot"?
And to clarify I've never received a benchmark increment in my life.

Maybe you should get your facts right before ranting on with your rubbish.

Tipp Man

bbam wrote: »

In general the job done by nurses and teachers is an exceptional one.. And I have no problems with their pay rates.. No doubt there are efficiencies that need to be delivered that the stupid Croke Park Agreement isn't reaching to..

However in the likes of Health the money is being waisted much higher up the food chain than the front line service providers... Mid to upper end management and general bad management is where the black hole is..

Personally I'm happy paying for a top level health and education system... we should be pushing for higher level services rather than the race to the bottom and go back to the services we had in the 1950's.. :rolleyes:

This Irish mentality of having a dig at those who are better paid is sickening and I'm sitting back listening to the hype around farming and increased farm incomes... that same dumb mentality will see calls for land tax, tax on out buildings, and any other tax for framing that can be thought up..

Our teachers are the best paid teachers in the world

A country that's bloody broke paying those kind of wages

Tipp Man

MaxPower131 wrote: »

Obviously a member of the FF/FG brigade. No mention of the cartel of lowlifes that have destroyed our country.

Oh and by the way our "large" education budget is a joke by OECD standards.

No I'm just not blind to see what is going on around me - maybe you are

We'd have the IMF in down even if our banks were rock solid - that is a fact.

We are spending billions upon billions more than we are taking in - regardless of bank bailouts and anything like that

johngalway

Tipp Man wrote: »

We'd have the IMF in down even if our banks were rock solid - that is a fact.

We are spending billions upon billions more than we are taking in - regardless of bank bailouts and anything like that

Agree with that. The budget deficit and the banking black hole are two separate things.

Had we no budget deficit, we could have told the bankers to F off without too much pain (well IF the banks hadn't been guaranteed at any rate)as we'd still have been able to cover the costs of running the country.

However, with needing money to patch the large hole in the budget deficit we have a large weak point which can be leveraged against us by those helping us out.

This is what happens when an economy is built on quick sand, or should that be a flood plain?

Birdnuts

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

This is no surprise of course but its a pity that the Minister couldn't be straight with farmers a few months ago and tell them the truth - there's no money so there will be no scheme.

At our Beef Discussion group meeting the other week there was a surprisingly large number of farmers who raised the issue of the ending of REPS. The general feeling of the meeting was that AEOS was a mickey mouse scheme - even the Teagasc advisor agreed.

A good number of them were really genuinely concerned about how they were going to manage without the REPS cash when it goes.
Of course there's no way of knowing anyone's personal circumstances are but I got the feeling that many of them had fairly substantial REPS 4 payments and were very dependent on it.
On guy said that without an equivalent replacement income by way of increased profit he would be going part-time.
Another admitted that the main reason he joined the BTAP was that without REPS he simply had to become profitable.

A lot of these guys were never beef finishers and there might have been a fair few of them operating suckler herd selling weanlings before the 10 or 22 month premia were claimed and maybe without quota so SFP is probably small. Indeed 8-10k REPS might well exceed their SFP.

It was something I hadn't really heard before at any of these meetings.

Wondering is this just my area or is it a widespread issue. Farmers don't tend to talk too much about money issues at these gatherings but I did get a sense of real worry among quite a few.

I received my last REPS 3 payment in Sept 2010 but for a small part timer dropping a couple of k per year while not pleasant is not life changing for me.
Any thoughts?

Farmers have been treated with contempt in regards to this matter - they were left in an information vacumn for well over a year by the Dept who would also want to wake up to the realities surrounding the new CAP and the greening measures required post 2015. I would also like to know into who's pocket these so-called savings are going??:mad:


PS: I read somewhere that farmers in Natura areas(SAC's etc.) are getting some sort of AEOS payment this year.

johngalway

rancher wrote: »

Don't think farmers are hurting enough yet because of the good prices, I couldn't get anyone to come with me to meet politicians anyway.
Wonder willl they wake up when the land tax is being introduced.

Agree with that as well. I told my farming finances story when I lost REPS at a public meeting in Clifden two or three years back. Said if I couldn't be a shining example I could be a dire warning anyway :rolleyes: That left a huge hole in my finances that I still haven't recovered from. Got a massive round of applause at the end of it all, but, as you say, when it's not Joe Bloggs hurting, you won't see Joe Bloggs at his local TD's constituency office OR even lifting the phone to him/her. I also asked people to go to their TD's of whatever colour, might as well have just done a handstand in front of the front table for all the effect it had.

"I'm alright Jack" is good and well until the cheque isn't coming through the door any more. And I tell ye, it's no fun. That year it was me, this year it's someone else. Next year, etc.

For the record I was getting €11,000+ per year in REPs 3.

Huge generalisation alert: I think a large part of not being able to shift people out is if they're "in" with their particular brand of TD. Sure Val Falvey will look after me, don't I know him years.

Birdnuts

Even with the better prices recently, alot of landowners around the place I have in North Mayo are getting out of farming alltogether. Alot of land has been been effectively abandoned in the last few years and I can see this getting steadily worse if the current anti-small farmer policies of this government continue to be pursued:(

MaxPower131

Tipp Man wrote: »

No I'm just not blind to see what is going on around me - maybe you are

We'd have the IMF in down even if our banks were rock solid - that is a fact.

We are spending billions upon billions more than we are taking in - regardless of bank bailouts and anything like that

You can keep chopping everyones income (except farmers obviously:D the typical everyone but me Irish attitude) and its not going to make any difference. Five hairshirt budgets and the economy is still contracting.

The way to get out of this mess is to grow the economy. The rest of europe have started waking up and kicking out puppet regimes of banks etc. Unfortunately no chance of that here......in 100 years time we'll still have FF/FG crony capitalism.

rancher

bbam wrote: »

Who exactly is "you lot"?
And to clarify I've never received a benchmark increment in my life.

Maybe you should get your facts right before ranting on with your rubbish.

It's only rubbish to those who are insulated from the worst of this recession, ie. those referred to in my previous post as being ''in the lifeboats''

5live

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

This is no surprise of course but its a pity that the Minister couldn't be straight with farmers a few months ago and tell them the truth - there's no money so there will be no scheme.

At our Beef Discussion group meeting the other week there was a surprisingly large number of farmers who raised the issue of the ending of REPS. The general feeling of the meeting was that AEOS was a mickey mouse scheme - even the Teagasc advisor agreed.

A good number of them were really genuinely concerned about how they were going to manage without the REPS cash when it goes.
Of course there's no way of knowing anyone's personal circumstances are but I got the feeling that many of them had fairly substantial REPS 4 payments and were very dependent on it.
On guy said that without an equivalent replacement income by way of increased profit he would be going part-time.
Another admitted that the main reason he joined the BTAP was that without REPS he simply had to become profitable.

A lot of these guys were never beef finishers and there might have been a fair few of them operating suckler herd selling weanlings before the 10 or 22 month premia were claimed and maybe without quota so SFP is probably small. Indeed 8-10k REPS might well exceed their SFP.

It was something I hadn't really heard before at any of these meetings.

Wondering is this just my area or is it a widespread issue. Farmers don't tend to talk too much about money issues at these gatherings but I did get a sense of real worry among quite a few.

I received my last REPS 3 payment in Sept 2010 but for a small part timer dropping a couple of k per year while not pleasant is not life changing for me.
Any thoughts?

That highlighted section tells a huge story, pharoh1. He and a huge section of farms simply are not profitable and require state support to continue farming. Note i didnt say need/want state support. Many subsidise their farming through REPS/AEOS or off farm jobs. Now i am not making any judgement on what people wish to do with their money/time but the facts are laid out before us. The level of support we will be getting will decline whether we like it or not. That isnt going to change whether FF/FG/Lab/SF/ULA are in power or not.
We are borrowing 50 million euro a day to pay state expenses. That is 11 euro/head/day or 4k a year/head. Water charges/household charges/land tax/ whatever-you-are-having-yourself tax and loss of benefits are inevitable.
The small farmer is going to suffer, inevitably more than the bigger farmer, but from situations like that new ideas and enterprises will arise (hopefully) but first all farmers will have to concentrate on the bottom line. Last weeks journal section on BETTER farms should be an eye opener to everyone on what we can do ourselves to improve our situations

theaceofspies

5live wrote: »

That highlighted section tells a huge story, pharoh1. He and a huge section of farms simply are not profitable and require state support to continue farming. Note i didnt say need/want state support. Many subsidise their farming through REPS/AEOS or off farm jobs. Now i am not making any judgement on what people wish to do with their money/time but the facts are laid out before us. The level of support we will be getting will decline whether we like it or not. That isnt going to change whether FF/FG/Lab/SF/ULA are in power or not.
We are borrowing 50 million euro a day to pay state expenses. That is 11 euro/head/day or 4k a year/head. Water charges/household charges/land tax/ whatever-you-are-having-yourself tax and loss of benefits are inevitable.
The small farmer is going to suffer, inevitably more than the bigger farmer, but from situations like that new ideas and enterprises will arise (hopefully) but first all farmers will have to concentrate on the bottom line. Last weeks journal section on BETTER farms should be an eye opener to everyone on what we can do ourselves to improve our situations

Yes, and all the while we will turn a blind eye to the wanten waste in the public sector/semi-state sectors.:(

bbam

5live wrote: »

That highlighted section tells a huge story, pharoh1. He and a huge section of farms simply are not profitable and require state support to continue farming. Note i didnt say need/want state support. Many subsidise their farming through REPS/AEOS or off farm jobs. Now i am not making any judgement on what people wish to do with their money/time but the facts are laid out before us. The level of support we will be getting will decline whether we like it or not. That isnt going to change whether FF/FG/Lab/SF/ULA are in power or not.
We are borrowing 50 million euro a day to pay state expenses. That is 11 euro/head/day or 4k a year/head. Water charges/household charges/land tax/ whatever-you-are-having-yourself tax and loss of benefits are inevitable.
The small farmer is going to suffer, inevitably more than the bigger farmer, but from situations like that new ideas and enterprises will arise (hopefully) but first all farmers will have to concentrate on the bottom line. Last weeks journal section on BETTER farms should be an eye opener to everyone on what we can do ourselves to improve our situations

Yep.
It will force lads to look at actual profit rather than thinking they can get bye on turnover. Irrespective of size, the enterprise has to be making a profit and only by focusing on the profit/loss areas can lads really decide what needs to be done.

Birdnuts

5live wrote: »

That highlighted section tells a huge story, pharoh1. He and a huge section of farms simply are not profitable and require state support to continue farming. Note i didnt say need/want state support. Many subsidise their farming through REPS/AEOS or off farm jobs. Now i am not making any judgement on what people wish to do with their money/time but the facts are laid out before us. The level of support we will be getting will decline whether we like it or not. That isnt going to change whether FF/FG/Lab/SF/ULA are in power or not.

There will still be a substantial amount of money coming into farming via the new CAP - how it will be spent and who will get this money is the issue IMO. I suspect myself that this government will try and channel as much it can to the big boys and corporations. I don't beleive such a strategy is in the best interests of the majority of farmers -or many other rural industries. Its also likely to erode whatever support there is for the likes of CAP etc. among the general public.

JohnBoy

MaxPower131 wrote: »

You can keep chopping everyones income (except farmers obviously:D the typical everyone but me Irish attitude) and its not going to make any difference. Five hairshirt budgets and the economy is still contracting.

The way to get out of this mess is to grow the economy. The rest of europe have started waking up and kicking out puppet regimes of banks etc. Unfortunately no chance of that here......in 100 years time we'll still have FF/FG crony capitalism.

I heard one of the union heads crying that a yes vote was a vote for austerity, and austerity is what has stagnated our economy for the last few years.

I heard today another union head accepting the need for a yes vote, but looking for a stimulus in exchange for it.




NEWSFLASH!!!!! We have been in receipt of huge stimulus for the last number of years. that stimulus, combined with the austerity policies we have in place is the only reason our county's economy has stagnated as opposed to collapsing.


Wake up and smell the real world

Pharaoh1

5live wrote: »

That highlighted section tells a huge story, pharoh1. He and a huge section of farms simply are not profitable and require state support to continue farming. Note i didnt say need/want state support. Many subsidise their farming through REPS/AEOS or off farm jobs. Now i am not making any judgement on what people wish to do with their money/time but the facts are laid out before us. The level of support we will be getting will decline whether we like it or not. That isnt going to change whether FF/FG/Lab/SF/ULA are in power or not.
We are borrowing 50 million euro a day to pay state expenses. That is 11 euro/head/day or 4k a year/head. Water charges/household charges/land tax/ whatever-you-are-having-yourself tax and loss of benefits are inevitable.
The small farmer is going to suffer, inevitably more than the bigger farmer, but from situations like that new ideas and enterprises will arise (hopefully) but first all farmers will have to concentrate on the bottom line. Last weeks journal section on BETTER farms should be an eye opener to everyone on what we can do ourselves to improve our situations

I think we all understand that those income support schemes like REPS are a thing of the past and a reducing SFP is the only game in town.
Agree with you on the BETTER farms thing and I've done a lot of the stuff they advocate using REPS money to do most of it as it happens.

It would be interesting to see what the accounting profit is on these farms - there is a lot of investment going on and stuff like reseeding and even fencing is more of an ongoing cost. If all fixed and other costs were included and if say these farmers were to take even a modest salary was drawn would there still be profit?
They really need to replicate the transparency of the greenfields dairy project which give all of this detail.

It won't really matter to me as a hobby farmer but I worry that say someone losing REPS and with a small SFP like the guy at the meeting are under the impression that his full time beef farming business can move to a place where it will deliver a reasonable income for him and his family into the future.
Higher prices and the BTAP/BETTER schemes and the stuff from Teagasc are kind of encouraging this message. Much as I'd love this to be the case I just don't think it is realistic.
And again I mean proper accounting profit.

5live

theaceofspies wrote: »

Yes, and all the while we will turn a blind eye to the wanten waste in the public sector/semi-state sectors.:(

Never said i was happy with that. I could give you examples that would put you sitting on your ar*e with the wanton lack of management ability or indeed shame on behalf of some of those on public salaries. But my point above to pharoh1 is that there is equal waste in the private sector and indeed the farming sector. Broke park(:D), as i think you dubbed it has only a year or so to run. I am not happy with it but when its gone i will expect a lot of blood on the ground and quickly. My vote in the next election depends on it

theaceofspies

5live wrote: »

Never said i was happy with that. I could give you examples that would put you sitting on your ar*e with the wanton lack of management ability or indeed shame on behalf of some of those on public salaries. But my point above to pharoh1 is that there is equal waste in the private sector and indeed the farming sector. Broke park(:D), as i think you dubbed it has only a year or so to run. I am not happy with it but when its gone i will expect a lot of blood on the ground and quickly. My vote in the next election depends on it

Sorry 5live, I honestly cannot see things changing after Croke Park expires; not as long as Labour remain in power anyway. In all likelihood we'll see Croke Park II as we did with Benchmarking. These vested interests have the country by the throat.