Shortage of IT staff?

Caseywhale

fergalr wrote: »

Databases are not that important a subject.

I would argue that databases are the single most important thing in development.
You wont get far without knowing a lot about databases if you intend to go contracting.

everdead.ie

Caseywhale wrote: »

fergalr wrote: »

Databases are not that important a subject.

I would argue that databases are the single most important thing in development.
You wont get far without knowing a lot about databases if you intend to go contracting.

I'd agree Ypres the user was a UI specialist Databases and efficient queries are so important.

Then if you are involved in the requirements phase of a project understanding the Database that's involved is very important.

moycullen14

I think that a very important point here is being missed; and that is the importance of domain knowledge vs technical skill.

Knowing how an industry works and what the critical success factors are is one sure way of differentiating you from the herd. For more senior positions, it is essential that you have domain (ie industry) knowledge. Otherwise how do you differentiate yourself - at 30 say - from a 22 year old who as experience of the latest 'buzz' technology?

Short of writing language compilers, there are very few businesses where technical competence on its own is a prime determinant of success.

When you start out technical competence is very important because it's all you've got. As you progress through your career, knowledge of, say, insurance, telecoms, financial services, etc, becomes far more important.

To be honest, if you are technically competent and have good knowledge and experience of one technical stack, how difficult is it to learn another one?

C++ Vs Java Vs C#
Windows Vs Linux
Oracle vs SQL Server vs MySQL
Perl Vs Python Vs PHP
Tomcat Vs Websphere, etc.

If all you have is knowledge of a technology, you risk being replaced by a cheaper, younger, more biddable alternative.

moycullen14

Another piece of advice for new graduates is network your ass off. Ireland is a very small country and specific industry sectors are smaller still. Get to know people, let people know who you are, what you can do and what your skills are. The easiest way to get a job is by personal recommendation. So don't gratuitously piss people off. They may be hiring you some day!

And remember in the long run, success is determined by personal characteristics as much as knowledge. Smart people who get things done and who can get other people to do things are the ones destined for great things - not the guy who knows the Android SDK inside out.

fergalr

I think its important to look at my comments in their totality.

Here they are:

Databases are not that important a subject. Certainly not important enough to merit a whole college year.

Ok, in one way, they are extremely important, and you could spend your whole career learning about them - but how much you need to know about databases specifically, before you can start hacking on a first product, is pretty minimal.
Dont think you have to wait until you've done a course in databases before you can start making stuff.

Caseywhale wrote: »

I would argue that databases are the single most important thing in development.

I would be interested in reading that.

Here's where I'm coming from:

Caseywhale wrote: »

You wont get far without knowing a lot about databases if you intend to go contracting.

When I think back to contracting, I actually remember fairly few projects where I needed to interact with a database in any level of detail.

Even a smaller subset of these projects required me to know more than the basics of SQL queries, and the basics of how a database worked. Most projects needed the kind of knowledge that you'd pick up in a couple of weeks, not a whole years worth. Its pretty straightforward.

Fewer projects still required a detailed knowledge of the internals of how a database operates. Typically, a DB specialist was on hand for these.


Actually, I'd argue that very few developers actually have a detailed knowledge of how databases work, at a fundamental level.
Anyone ever implemented a transaction scheduler? I haven't. (Think people have to do a simple one as a college project in UCD, actually, but I mean in the real world...)


I would go even further, and argue that this is a core point of having standardised databases - the fact that it encapsulates and abstracts a lot of knowledge and technology that would otherwise be required to manage data, and makes it pretty simple to use.


Sure, its a leaky abstraction; all abstractions are; but 'spend two weeks' leaky, not 'spend a year' leaky, unless this is your specific area of expertise, no? When you want to high performance this changes, as we've said.


To put the question back in its context:
A student is wondering whether they need to know a years worth of database studies, before they start hacking on their product.
(Now, it probably won't be a whole year; second year should really have a lot of other stuff, algorithms, data structures, elementary software engineer, more math, blah blah.)

I'm just saying 'no, thats really not necessary'. The conceptual knowledge you probably need, to be able to use databases, really is pretty compact.


I remember learning this, during second year, for a summer project (our first database course wasn't until third year). It took a couple of weeks part time.
I wasn't a DB ninja, couldn't optimise queries, or database indicies, or find the right balance between performance and cleanliness or whatever, but I would have happily hacked together a project with a DB in it.

These days, you could be making an app with activerecord, or with google app engine, and really need to know next to nothing about your database at all, until you already have 100k users, and can then learn, or - more likely - pay someone on a specialist DB career track.

As I remember, anyway, in my third year course, what there actually was, was a lot of material on DB normalisation, and a lot of strict rules about how to normalise your database; which are broken all the time, anyway, for performance reasons.

Its also possible that the person in question just wants to make an iPhone app. Or maybe a video game. Not every developer is doing CRUD stuff.

So, thats where I'm coming from - databases are really important in some ways; but not so important, in others, and there are many roles and projects where nothing more than a cursory knowledge is ever needed.

BostonB

Its important to understand databases IMO.

Gurgle

Depends on your business sector tbh.
You could get through a successful career without knowing what they are, but it would rule out a whole heap of jobs.

Trojan

Errr, when I said "toys", I mean "toys", not ergonomic keyboards.

"Happy Christmas, love, I got you Dyson Upright. No bags!"

kayos

Trojan wrote: »

Errr, when I said "toys", I mean "toys", not ergonomic keyboards.

I was gonna post an idea but I think I might keep it to myself for now...

Sparks

Trojan wrote: »

Errr, when I said "toys", I mean "toys", not ergonomic keyboards.

Me, you don't need to convince. Some of the companies I've worked for, that's another matter.
"Here, a nonmonetary bonus, it's a cheap ergonomic keyboard. Throw away that Kinesis you bought with your own money, why don't you?"...

shootermacg

I'm a dev, my work is good, that's all down to professionalism. In my experience the business do think of us as a cost and also provide little scope for growth. Why then should I not treat them the same way? The business htend to think of themselves as a customer rather than a college.

It's a fact that in IT you have to move on to make money. An employer will only pay you as much as they think you're worth. What is that? Well a senior dev with 5 to 7 years experience in Java /.NET and SQL should be looking for 65K + perks.

Anyone who isn't making this should move the hell on. You should make that much just for taking the muddled half baked ideas of middle management and making something of them, sometimes I wonder if all non IT people are part insane because their minds are minefields of half baked crap.

Sparks

[mod note]Lots of interesting posts on the topic of comparing teaching languages and industrial languages split out from this thread to this one...[/mod note]

starlit

moycullen14 wrote: »

My definition of a shortage is that your phone would be hopping off the hook with offers (assuming you had the skills!).

I'm sort of looking for contract Java work at the moment and am a bit horrified at the response - especially from agents - calls not returned, no follow up, usually stuff. The first - indeed only - question seems to 'What's your rate?' To which the only answer is 'As much as possible:)'.

I'm not complaining about the difficulty in getting work - it just doesn't seem consistent with the '000's of unfilled vacancies' mantra that I hear in the media.

Maybe I shouldn't believe all that I hear on the radio? Doh!

I see what you mean, though java isn't my strong point but I am willing for any kind of contract, temporary or permanent or an internship but at the same time I am limited to what Programming skills I have and good at, better at web programming. So don't intend to follow the java road despite a lot of programming jobs requiring java.

It is very much a race at the moment for graduates trying to get into an IT role no matter what it is. Even if you have the skills whether limited or a range of them still not enough for them unless you have the experience to back it up!

I very much agree they are saying there is a skills shortage in IT but really they are saying there aren't enough people with the right IT skills and experience to match their perfect or more than perfect job spec and looking for than those who meet it if they go beyond it the competition between candidates to stand out is more fierce. Yet HR say its a guide but IT professionals see that a candidate must tick all the boxes not just meet the buzz words that HR see the pin on that and think they are the beesknees but IT professionals who are hiring don't see that and require something more definite so conflict of interest between HR and IT professionals in my opinion, no wonder there are specific IT Recruitment agents! You have to really stand out to land any kind of job in IT!?

I cannot understand they are creating a load of jobs in the IT industry yet its making it harder to find work in it despite the range of IT jobs but limited in some aspects depending what field of IT it is, skill sets and experience you have.

I think its pure media hype when these so called IT jobs/IT companies are created here!

MagicRon

doovdela wrote: »

It is very much a race at the moment for graduates trying to get into an IT role no matter what it is. Even if you have the skills whether limited or a range of them still not enough for them unless you have the experience to back it up!

My company took on four people in the last two weeks - three of them graduates straight out of college.
There were no graduates racing to our door - we had to go out and look to the colleges for them.

I mentioned here on boards that our company was looking for graduates and I posted to LinkedIn groups and not one person got in touch ... so I don't see where this race is at?!

Have you read
http://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/item/27455-tech-job-announcements-this/

imitation

MagicRon wrote: »

My company took on four people in the last two weeks - three of them graduates straight out of college.
There were no graduates racing to our door - we had to go out and look to the colleges for them.

I mentioned here on boards that our company was looking for graduates and I posted to LinkedIn groups and not one person got in touch ... so I don't see where this race is at?!

Have you read
http://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/item/27455-tech-job-announcements-this/

Its kind of the impression I get too. I sent a mail to 20 masters grads who did computer science a few years back and I didn't get one response back. I was told by one guy in the class, some people were scared off when they saw databases mentioned ! This was despite the fact it was clearly labelled as a graduate job

Recalling my graduate days too, I think in some people there is a mixture of lack of confidence, not having links to industry, not knowing where to look and maybe wanting to enjoy the last of the student life. I guess there also an element of ships in the night when it comes to thing.

conor.hogan.2

1 - Personally I do not apply for jobs I am not even remotely qualified for (.NET, for example) and I imagine a lot of grads are like this.

2 - "had to go looking for them", yes MS also go to colleges looking for people that is just the market you are in atm.

starlit

Yes, having links in industry can improve rapport between graduates and employers and industry.

I can see why some graduates be scared of Databases its not too bad except for when it comes to VBA otherwise straight forward enough when it comes to MYSQL and setting up a database on a website for instance.

CrazyFish

In fairness as a recent graduate it can be hard to find the jobs because you have to trawl through so much crap on jobs sites e.g recruiting agents etc. Then when you find a graduate job some of the specs seem to expect you to use specific libraries or frameworks which puts me off to applying to these positions.

Giblet

You have two options, learn the stuff they list, or just apply anyway. The stuff usually listed is stuff you would be expected to learn if you didn't know, most companies just have a laundry list of stuff they put down, they don't expect you to know much about them. Google them if you don't know just so you have an idea. Apply anyway.

mach1982

I haven't read all the post, but here is my opinion.

The should teach computer science in secondary schools at least at senior leave.
The UK are plan to scrap there current ITC program and get University to create a new one with more computer science . I heard a quote a few weeks ago it was some thing like this " we need less secretaries and more computer programmers " The ECDL is useless, what need are more programs like the coder dojo

The Corinthian

CrazyFish wrote: »

Then when you find a graduate job some of the specs seem to expect you to use specific libraries or frameworks which puts me off to applying to these positions.

A lot of companies are not very good at writing specs for jobs. Either the person writing the spec is often very technical and not very HR orientated or vice versa. Other times they're just being greedy; looking to hire someone with skills that are de facto those of someone with a few years experience at a graduate salary.

Giblet is absolutely right when he suggests that you should apply anyway. In reality, some of the listed skills may simply be 'nice to haves', but are poorly identified as such in the spec.

A weekend boning up on most of these things will be sufficient, as long as they are not core skills for the role.

Even if not, employers have to adhere to the law of supply and demand and if they're looking to fill a graduate position with unrealistic skill sets that will frighten off many candidates, they're going to end up with fewer people applying, who probably won't be ideal fits anyway, leaving those who chanced their arm and applied in an ironically better position.

The Corinthian

mach1982 wrote: »

The ECDL is useless, what need are more programs like the coder dojo

The ECDL is not useless; oddly enough there are more jobs out there that require basic computer skills than programming skills - despite Boards.ie demographics, 80% of the population does not work in IT.

I would though agree that there is need to better teach IT skills, including basic programming and an introduction to databases, in schools.

djpbarry

CrazyFish wrote: »

In fairness as a recent graduate it can be hard to find the jobs because you have to trawl through so much crap on jobs sites e.g recruiting agents etc.

Dealing with agencies is a bit of a nightmare alright – I tend to avoid them if at all possible. I suspect that many of the positions posted by agencies are not actually genuine and merely exist to harvest CVs.

CrazyFish wrote: »

Then when you find a graduate job some of the specs seem to expect you to use specific libraries or frameworks which puts me off to applying to these positions.

Regardless of the industry, job specs are often wishlists rather than absolute must-have criteria. I don’t think I’ve ever ticked all the boxes on the job spec for any position I’ve been hired for.

Trojan

If the software developer you're hiring doesn't know their own value, then by definition they're a lower value developer. Truly high value candidates will understand their own value and won't bother to apply for low value positions.

Therefore low value hiring companies will get a feedback loop of low value candidates.

The exceptions to this will be high value developers who can't find a job quickly due to the economy... except one might argue that means they're actually lower down the ladder of value.


Edit: using "value" meaning "worth", not in the "value-for-money" sense

conor.hogan.2

Don't forget some people have a very (very) inflated view of their "value".

Stark

Perhaps, but if you're one of these companies offering to pay graduates 18k pa when all your competitors are paying 25k+ then expect to get what you pay for.

starlit

Interesting how this has come to light from Grad Ireland in terms of salary survey for graduates and the 49% skills gap in IT and Technology?! How has this come about? Decline in graduate positions in IT or decline in intake of IT graduates for IT graduate positions or just the typical case of the more experienced you are the better?? Perhaps a professional.

Yet they saying that a 2:1 and work experience is more important than a postgrad?

Am I right in saying that is true that there is in fact a 49% skills gap in IT (graduates)?

http://gradireland.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/latest-graduate-salary-survey-results/

Sparks

Trojan wrote: »

If the software developer you're hiring doesn't know their own value, then by definition they're a lower value developer.

I just don't buy that; the Dunning-Kruger effect and the Downing effect both indicate that knowing your own value correctly is a very rare ability indeed...

everdead.ie

doovdela wrote: »

Interesting how this has come to light from Grad Ireland in terms of salary survey for graduates and the 49% skills gap in IT and Technology?! How has this come about? Decline in graduate positions in IT or decline in intake of IT graduates for IT graduate positions or just the typical case of the more experienced you are the better?? Perhaps a professional.

Yet they saying that a 2:1 and work experience is more important than a postgrad?

Am I right in saying that is true that there is in fact a 49% skills gap in IT (graduates)?

http://gradireland.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/latest-graduate-salary-survey-results/

After the .COM bust in 01 the numbers joining IT plumetted,
The It course went from taking in 100 people each year to 8 people by 2008 this then has dramatically recovered with the course tapped out again.

It is cyclical and it means that there is a shortage of Graduates coming out right now but in the next 2/3 years it will be significantly better.

The problem with people doing post grads is they are one year courses to learn stuff others learnt in four years experience is definetly better than a post grad imo there is stuff you can't learn in aclass room.

OwenM

doovdela wrote: »

Interesting how this has come to light from Grad Ireland in terms of salary survey for graduates and the 49% skills gap in IT and Technology?! How has this come about? Decline in graduate positions in IT or decline in intake of IT graduates for IT graduate positions or just the typical case of the more experienced you are the better?? Perhaps a professional.

Yet they saying that a 2:1 and work experience is more important than a postgrad?

Am I right in saying that is true that there is in fact a 49% skills gap in IT (graduates)?

http://gradireland.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/latest-graduate-salary-survey-results/

It doesn't state the skills gap is in IT graduates. My take is that 49% graduates have a skills gap in IT - e.g. - business/arts graduates cannot use powerpoint - map a network drive - configure an email client.