Catholic church uses schookids to sign anti-gay marriage petition

thegreengoblin

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/25/catholic-church-schools-gay-marriage

I'm surprised they haven't tried this here. Or have they? The sooner this sick and dangerous organisation is washed away into the annals of history the happier I will be.

robindch

They're at it in Canada too:

http://www.canada.com/news/Students+coerced+into+signing+anti+abortion+petition+Atheist+group/6516556/story.html

canada.com wrote:

A national secular group has charged that students at a Toronto-area high school have been "coerced" into signing an anti-abortion petition — an allegation the Catholic school board denies. [...] Late last week, students at St. Joseph's Catholic secondary school in Mississauga, Ont., west of Toronto, were asked whether they would be willing to sign a petition in support of Stephen Woodworth, the Kitchener Centre Tory MP who has asked the House of Commons to open a debate on Section 223 of the Criminal Code, which states a child in the womb is not human until birth.

The religious justifications are almost identical:

Some Canadian catholic wrote:

"Catholic schools are assured by law the right to teach their morals in their schools and this falls well within the scope of Catholic moral teaching," Pierre said, "so I don't see there's an argument to be made here."

Some English catholic wrote:

"Schools with a religious character are allowed to teach sex and relationships – and conduct assemblies – in accordance with the religious views of the school. The Catholic view of marriage is not a political view; it's a religious view."

gawker

I really want out of this disgusting organization. Ahhh!

That is all.

Daftendirekt

Vile.

Looks like they underestimated some of the pupils though:

She said some pupils had responded by buying Gay Pride badges to pin to their uniforms. "There are several people in my year who aren't heterosexual – myself included – and I for one was appalled and actually disgusted by what they were encouraging," she said. "After all, that's discrimination they were urging impressionable people to engage in, which is unacceptable."

The Mad Hatter

Top two threads in A&A:

Catholic church uses schookids to sign anti-gay marriage petition
Who will teach us ethics?

Galvasean

Ah f*ck the RCC really. Bunch of bigots.
The 'Ah shure am't I catholic coz I was born in Ireland' folks should take a long look in the mirror and see what they are associating themselves with.

kylith

Not surprised at all. I'd say the words 'murdering babies' were used a lot for the abortion one, I know they were thrown around in my school, and then we were forced to watch a video of one.

I presume that 'abnormal' was used for the gay one.

Surely you should have to be over 18 to have any weight on a petition? I could get a phenominal amount of signatures on my Ban Brocolli petition by asking kids to sign, but it wouldn't mean squat because kids know nothing about thinking rationally about issues.

NiallFH

I find it bad that this doesn't even shock me in the slightest. I find it extremely irritating yes but something I would completely expect from the RCC.

It's a shame that the schools allowed it to happen though

robindch

Two other stories from the US this month showing the privileges christians claim in the schools they run:

Indiana Teacher fired for receiving fertility treatment

ABC News wrote:

A Catholic school teacher in Indiana is suing a diocese there, claiming that she was unlawfully terminated after school officials learned she was undergoing fertility treatments to become pregnant. [...] In a federal lawsuit filed in a Fort Wayne, Ind., teacher Emily Herx claimed that she was fired and told by a senior church official that her attempt to become pregnant through in-vitro fertilization made her a "grave, immoral sinner." [...] One year later in May 2011, after requesting time off for a second round of fertility treatments, she was told to report to Msgr. John Kuzmich, the pastor of the St. Vincent de Paul Catholic Church. At that meeting, attended by Herx, her husband and father, Kuzmich called her a "grave, immoral sinner" and added that if news of her IVF treatments got out it would cause a "scandal" for the church, according to her civil complaint.

Texas teacher fired for becoming pregnant by her fiancé

ABC News wrote:

A teacher and coach at a private Christian school in Texas fired for an unwed pregnancy wants to set the record straight about who she is for those who question her fitness as a "Christian role model." "I'm not just some teacher that went out to a bar and go pregnant and went back to school saying it's okay," Cathy Samford told ABCNews.com today. "I was in a committed relationship the whole time and probably would have been married if things had gone differently and this would be a non-situation." [...] "I didn't think I would lose my job," Samford said. "I was in shock and devastated and that's when I said, 'If this is the problem, I'm willing, and so is my fiancé, to go ahead and get married. That wasn't the issue. We were going to get married regardless." The school denied her offer. [...] Taylor said that when the school became aware of the situation, they felt they had no choice but to terminate her. "It's not that she's pregnant. The issue here is being an unmarried mother," Taylor said. "Everything that we stand for says that we want our teachers, who we consider to be in the ministry, to model what a Christian man or woman should be." [...] "It was not a decision that we took lightly because we love Cathy and her two kids that were here and wish her nothing but the best," Taylor said. "Were we a public school, this would not have been an issue. But it's different in a Christian school."

Turtwig

Is this an exclusively RCC thing though? For abortion we were shown truly evocative images of fetuses. Apparently violent films were were not allowed, but baby fetuses being - as they described it - brutally mutilated, well that's perfectly ok now isn't it? The teacher who made us watch these was certainly not a Catholic. I don't know where one should draw the line either. I encountered emotional pleas against nuclear energy, abortion, war, homosexual marriage, climate change, gm products, the list is endless.

On one hand it's abhorrent but on the other if you're going to spread awareness on any emotive topic there is no real way to be balanced about it. What one group regards as lies, the other groups regards as the truth. Personally, I think the best way to resolve this issue is to teach kids how to spot bullsh1t claim and be skeptics, but even then, ethically that might be seem as a form of propaganda.

I'm just confused that's all.

Penn

Kuzmich called her a "grave, immoral sinner" and added that if news of her IVF treatments got out it would cause a "scandal" for the church, according to her civil complaint.

Yeah, because that's the scandalous part of this story

robindch

Penn wrote: »

Yeah, because that's the scandalous part of this story

Why do so many religious have no discernible sense of irony?

.

Gurgle

Texas and Indiana, the New World's Cork and Leitrim respectively.

robindch

And in Notre Dame, the US's largest "catholic" university, an overweight bishop who's on the Board of Fellows poe'd himself by comparing Obama to Hitler and Stalin, raising the ire of large number of faculty. Source here and here.

Bish Jenky wrote:

Hitler and Stalin, at their better moments, would just barely tolerate some churches remaining open, but would not tolerate any competition with the state in education, social services and health care. In clear violation of our First Amendment rights, Barack Obama — with his radical, pro-abortion and extreme secularist agenda — now seems intent on following a similar path.

Faculty wrote:

As you will be aware, the Most Reverend Daniel Jenky, a member of Notre Dame’s Board of Fellows, has been widely quoted for a homily in which he described President Obama as “seem[ing] intent on following a similar path” to Hitler and Stalin. Bishop Jenky’s comments demonstrate ignorance of history, insensitivity to victims of genocide, and absence of judgment. We accept that Bishop Jenky’s comments are protected by the First Amendment, but we find it profoundly offensive that a member of our beloved university’s highest authority, the Board of Fellows, should compare the President’s actions with those whose genocidal policies murdered tens of millions of people, including the specific targeting of Catholics, Jews, and other minorities for their faith. We request that you issue a statement on behalf of the University that will definitively distance Notre Dame from Bishop Jenky's incendiary statement. Further, we feel that it would be in the best interest of Notre Dame if Bishop Jenky resigned from the University's Board of Fellows if he is unwilling to renounce loudly and publicly this destructive analogy.

Jenky himself went to a US school run by the (irish) Christian Brothers and his comments here toe the Vatican's line on Obama's healthcare legislation; the same legislation that the US's nuns got into trouble last week for supporting.

krudler

in other news, organisation of strange celibate virgin men in silly hats tell others how to conduct their private lives.

Ghost Buster

Gurgle wrote: »

Texas and Indiana, the New World's Cork and Leitrim respectively.

Indiana is full of Canadian, Dutch, German , Australian, British and American crusties and drop outs who do pottery and protest at the Corrib pipe line. Well I'll be!!!!!!:cool:

rainbow kirby

Yet another reason why any future child of mine will not be sent anywhere near a Catholic school.

Shenshen

robindch wrote: »

They're at it in Canada too:

http://www.canada.com/news/Students+coerced+into+signing+anti+abortion+petition+Atheist+group/6516556/story.html

The religious justifications are almost identical:

Originally Posted by Some English catholic
"Schools with a religious character are allowed to teach sex and relationships – and conduct assemblies – in accordance with the religious views of the school. The Catholic view of marriage is not a political view; it's a religious view."

The bolded part makes me wonder why they would want to meddle in politics in the first place then.

Penn

Shenshen wrote: »

The bolded part makes me wonder why they would want to meddle in politics in the first place then.

They can say it wasn't political all they like, but what was the petition for if not to try and influence a political decision?

kylith

Ah the irony of them sacking the engaged pregnant woman, sure wasn't Jesus conceived out of wedlock? Would they treat Mary like that?

General Relativity

robindch wrote: »

And in Notre Dame, the US's largest "catholic" university, an overweight bishop who's on the Board of Fellows poe'd himself by comparing Obama to Hitler and Stalin, raising the ire of large number of faculty.

I read this so wrong.

I couldn't belive it, so, I Google'd; Notre Dame Bishop poo'd himself. After no notable results I re-read your post. That amount of dissapointment will never be felt again.

MetalDog

Just when I thought those f**ckin snakes in the RCC couldn't sink any lower, but then again, they are experts in using children for their own ends.

robindch

General Relativity wrote: »

Notre Dame Bishop poo'd himself.

No doubt he did when he saw the letter from the university staff

The text of the original sermon is here and the follow-up is here.

I'd say he's angling for promotion. Or he's batshit crazy. Which amounts to the same thing I suppose.

magicbastarder

MetalDog wrote: »

Just when I thought those f**ckin snakes in the RCC couldn't sink any lower, but then again, they are experts in using children for their own ends.

to be fair, using kids to sign a petition isn't quite as low as abusing kids. so it's not as if they've sunk lower. they've set a particularly low bar for themselves...

Dades

Why am I reminded of the census? :pac:

doctoremma

I attended a state Catholic school in the UK - I can't imagine my teachers ever getting behind this stuff but, m'eh, it was a long time ago now and it might be way more conservative these days.

I'm unsure how much weight any number of signatures from children will hold when trying to persuade the government to retract a new law (or what will shortly be one). Maybe they'd have more success if they got their adult parents to sign up? I suggest they target weekly mass - that's provided the parents are even there and haven't just signed up to Catholicism to get their precious ones into a decent school.

And it's not like Catholicism is the state religion or anything. The C of E seem pretty down with it.

And, as far as I'm aware, nobody is forcing churches to marry gay couples.

robindch

doctoremma wrote: »

I'm unsure how much weight any number of signatures from children will hold when trying to persuade the government to retract a new law [...]

The aim here isn't to sway the government, but to indoctrinate kids and convince them that they can and should base their choices for state policy on personal religious belief.

doctoremma

robindch wrote: »

The aim here isn't to sway the government, but to indoctrinate kids and convince them that they can and should base their choices for state policy on personal religious belief.

An update:
http://www.humanism.org.uk/news/view/1032

Secretary of State for Education Michael Gove has ordered an investigation into whether or not the Catholic Education Service (CES) has broken laws against political balance in encouraging secondary school pupils to sign a petition against same sex marriage...PinkNews.co.uk has reported a spokesperson for the Department for Education as saying that: ‘Schools have a responsibility under law to ensure children are insulated from political activity and campaigning in the classroom. While ‘faith’ schools, rightly, have the freedom to teach about sexual relations and marriage in the context of their own religion, that should not extend to political campaigning.

Delirium

Based on a recent speech by representatives of the Holy See at the UN, the schools were acting in a manner that the Holy See doesn't support.

Within the educational process, the Holy See delegation reminded members that states should ultimately respect the choices made by parents and avoid attempts at ideological indoctrination.

Source

robindch

^^^ The exact quote is worth noting:

The Vatican wrote:

In this educational process, the State should respect the choices that parents make for their children and avoid attempts at ideological indoctrination.

The Vatican's full statement is here:

http://www.catholic.net/index.php?option=zenit&id=34700

F12

thegreengoblin wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/25/catholic-church-schools-gay-marriage

I'm surprised they haven't tried this here. Or have they? The sooner this sick and dangerous organisation is washed away into the annals of history the happier I will be.

I wonder if the RCC consider their child abuser clergy as being gay? I mean the men who have sex with male children? Do they differentiate between the homosexuals that their bible instruct them to kill (Leviticus 20:13 etc) and the male deviants who rape male children? I've never seen any explanation of how they see it all, or maybe they just pretend it never happened?

F12

kylith wrote: »

Ah the irony of them sacking the engaged pregnant woman, sure wasn't Jesus conceived out of wedlock? Would they treat Mary like that?

Ah now Kylith, it wasn't like that...It's more like "When a god meets a virgin, they give each other 'special hugs'...." :rolleyes:

qrrgprgua

thegreengoblin wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/25/catholic-church-schools-gay-marriage

I'm surprised they haven't tried this here. Or have they? The sooner this sick and dangerous organisation is washed away into the annals of history the happier I will be.

Shock horror... A Catholic school teaches the Catholic Faith.. There is nothing wrong defending the Faith you confess.

Delirium

qrrgprgua wrote: »

thegreengoblin wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/25/catholic-church-schools-gay-marriage

I'm surprised they haven't tried this here. Or have they? The sooner this sick and dangerous organisation is washed away into the annals of history the happier I will be.

Shock horror... A Catholic school teaches the Catholic Faith.. There is nothing wrong defending the Faith you confess.

they weren't teaching the faith, they were getting kids to sign a petition. And there has been mention that it's probably illegal to do so.

qrrgprgua

koth wrote: »

they weren't teaching the faith, they were getting kids to sign a petition. And there has been mention that it's probably illegal to do so.

A petition against something that goes against their faith... Similar petition to what the Muslims did in France regarding the burka?

I am a Catholic and I teach my Children that Gay Marriage is wrong as it goes against our faith, What the Uk is trying to do is force the boundaries and even forcing church's to accept gay couples marrying in them.

If my child brought home the petition I would make sure it was signed.

in the UK its not just a Political issue... It stops being political when the Government is trying to force church's to allow Gay couples marry in them.

Cossax

qrrgprgua wrote: »

A petition against something that goes against their faith... Similar petition to what the Muslims did in France regarding the burka?

I am a Catholic and I teach my Children that Gay Marriage is wrong as it goes against our faith, What the Uk is trying to do is force the boundaries and even forcing church's to accept gay couples marrying in them.

If my child brought home the petition I would make sure it was signed.

in the UK its not just a Political issue... It stops being political when the Government is trying to force church's to allow Gay couples marry in them.

If you can't see the issue here then I despair.
Roping (better than groping, I suppose) kids in beef up numbers signing a pro-bigotry petition in school. :rolleyes:

Proof please for the highlighted part?

christmas2012

i know a few gay people and personally i think that is sick and wrong

Turtwig

christmas2012 wrote: »

i know a few gay people and personally i think that is sick and wrong

You might need to clarify this post. Do you mean :

• You know a few gay people and that knowing gays is sick and wrong.
  or
• You know a few gay people and that the church forcing kids to sign an anti gay marriage petition is sick and wrong.

Corkfeen

christmas2012 wrote: »

i know a few gay people and personally i think that is sick and wrong

I think it's sick and immoral to view a person's sexuality in such a way, judging and deeming it acceptable to override their rights to equality is even worse. Guess who's right.

magicbastarder

qrrgprgua wrote: »

in the UK its not just a Political issue... It stops being political when the Government is trying to force church's to allow Gay couples marry in them.

churches are going to be forced to allow gay marriage to be performed in them? do you actually honestly believe this?

ShooterSF

qrrgprgua wrote: »

A petition against something that goes against their faith... Similar petition to what the Muslims did in France regarding the burka?

I am a Catholic and I teach my Children that Gay Marriage is wrong as it goes against our faith, What the Uk is trying to do is force the boundaries and even forcing church's to accept gay couples marrying in them.

If my child brought home the petition I would make sure it was signed.

in the UK its not just a Political issue... It stops being political when the Government is trying to force church's to allow Gay couples marry in them.

If that last line was true I'd stand up for your right to fight tooth and nail to protect your cult but it's not. The subject is about civil marraiges, nothing to do with your church and I doubt anyone looking to avail of said services would be a member of your church either. How would you feel if other groups started signing petitions to stop anyone from eating pork just because their religion doesn't allow it?
This is a political issue.

MagicMarker

qrrgprgua wrote: »

A petition against something that goes against their faith...

Who's faith? It may be against Church teachings but you have no idea what faith the students have. Just because their parents sent them to a Catholic school doesn't mean the students support the Catholic church. It's clearly irresponsible, not to mention unethical, for adults in a position of power to try and encourage discrimination among children.

Then again, ethics doesn't seem to factor very high on the Church's list of priorities.

qrrgprgua

Cossax wrote: »

If you can't see the issue here then I despair.
Roping (better than groping, I suppose) kids in beef up numbers signing a pro-bigotry petition in school. :rolleyes:

Proof please for the highlighted part?

its an issue when government tries to push their agenda into church's.

I'm not surprised you don't understand or care.

Is there an age limit on petitions? Parents got their kids in Roscommon to sign petitions to stop closure of A&E... that didn't make it to boards discussion.


The problem is not the Catholic churchs objection to Gay marriage.. The problem is the UK governments legislation pushing and forcing all venues that carry out marriage ceremonies to accept gay couples..Meaning that they are encroaching our our religious rights.

So no I see nothing wrong with the church getting all its faithful to sign a petition. ... .Unless you are going to outlaw petitions to those under a certain age limit.


P.S.


Come to think of it.. The Trade union for teachers got a petition signed by kids in many schools against cuts to education here in Ireland... Kids brought him literature.

Sarky

Bloody Hell, you're actually serious, aren't you?

magicbastarder

qrrgprgua wrote: »

The problem is not the Catholic churchs objection to Gay marriage.. The problem is the UK governments legislation pushing and forcing all venues that carry out marriage ceremonies to accept gay couples..Meaning that they are encroaching our our religious rights.

have you got a source for this?

qrrgprgua

magicbastarder wrote: »

have you got a source for this?

What google not working today?

efb

Where is the proposed legislation that forces churches to perform marraige ceremonies for gay couples???

efb

qrrgprgua wrote: »

What google not working today?

You say it- you back it up

ShooterSF

qrrgprgua wrote: »

What google not working today?

It is actually.

The proposed reform of the marriage laws, which was put out for consultation yesterday, would cover only civil marriages for gay and lesbian couples and would not affect religious marriages or offer heterosexual couples the option of civil partnerships. The reform would have the force of law in England and Wales, but not Scotland or Northern Ireland.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/14/gay-marriage-government-public-consultation

Your turn.

Turtwig

qrrgprgua wrote: »

What google not working today?

Dunno about google, but etiquette and manners don't appear to be working for you.

Dades

qrrgprgua, are you deliberately sidestepping the replies addressing your contention that the church is being forced to do anything?

Because it's not. It's just (for a change) sticking its nose into other people's personal lives.