Allegation McGuinness ordered RUC assassinations

Crooked Jack

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17830747

Smithwick Tribunal hears claim Martin McGuinness involved in murder plan

Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness was involved in authorising the IRA murder of two RUC officers in 1989, according to evidence given to the Smithwick Tribunal.

Former British intelligence officer Ian Hurst - also known as Martin Ingram - claimed the murders were "authorised by Northern Command" and "Mr McGuinness was OC Northern Command".

Sinn Fein said Mr McGuinness totally rejected the allegations, saying they were "more lies from an individual with a highly dubious track record".

The spokesman added: "Judge Smithwick has already been critical of the quality and nature of the evidence provided to his tribunal by the British state.

<mod snip>
Please don't quote entire articles - a snippet and a link will suffice.

Also, in the future, please include your comments and thoughts on an article you post in the OP, rather than just below.

battle_hardend

so what ?

Crooked Jack

Anyone think there will be any fallout from this at all?
I mean, people who hate McGuinness/SF for their part in the war have already made up their minds about them while supporters are hardly going to be upset about the assassination of two high profile RUC men.

Crooked Jack

battle_hardend wrote: »

so what ?

That's what I'm asking.

Border-Rat

So nothing. These things were largely put to bed over ten years ago. No fallout.

KeithAFC

A guy involved in the PIRA ordering the killing of good RUC men shocker. I can't say this is surprising at all and I imagine it shocks no one. It has been done and nothing can be done now. I feel sorry for the families but life has to move on.

Richard

KeithAFC wrote: »

A guy involved in the PIRA ordering the killing of good RUC men shocker. I can't say this is surprising at all and I imagine it shocks no one. It has been done and nothing can be done now. I feel sorry for the families but life has to move on.

I'm sorry to say that you are correct, Keith. Unfortunately for those officers' families, they probably won't get proper justice in the foreseeable future.

john reilly

KeithAFC wrote: »

A guy involved in the PIRA ordering the killing of good RUC men shocker. I can't say this is surprising at all and I imagine it shocks no one. It has been done and nothing can be done now. I feel sorry for the families but life has to move on.

if the pira only killed "good ruc men" the security forces would have had nothing to be afraid of

Chuck Stone

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Between 30 and 60 people would have been involved in the operation, and four or five of them could "reasonably be expected" to have been working as agents, Mr Hurst said.

If this were true then perhaps the families of those RUC officers should ask the British government what it was doing allowing RUC officers to be killed when it could have prevented it.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

A guy involved in the PIRA ordering the killing of good RUC men shocker. I can't say this is surprising at all and I imagine it shocks no one. It has been done and nothing can be done now. I feel sorry for the families but life has to move on.

The RUC colluded with loyalist terrorists, and routinely attacked and harassed the nationalist community. It was a corrupt organisation. Please don't make false assessments of the RUC as being 'good'.

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

The RUC colluded with loyalist terrorists, and routinely attacked and harassed the nationalist community. It was a corrupt organisation. Please don't make false assessments of the RUC as being 'good'.

Some RUC officers colluded with Ulster volunteers but that was only a small percentage. But don't let the facts distract from the myth. You know that as much as I do.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some RUC officers colluded with Ulster volunteers but that was only a small percentage. But don't let the facts distract from the myth. You know that as much as I do.

The RUC was nowhere even close to being an impartial police force. Nowhere even close.

K-9

There were plenty of good RUC men, officers who as many would say "touted" to the Stalker Inquiry at great personal risk.

There's a danger of mixing up the RUC, the organisation, and good, professional coppers.

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

The RUC was nowhere even close to being an impartial police force. Nowhere even close.

Demographics dictate that though and the time of the war also dictated that. Catholics would have been under threat if they joined the RUC anyway. So there was many reasons for a lack of Catholics in the RUC.

dlofnep

K-9 wrote: »

There were plenty of good RUC men

Dig deep, and you'll find good men in any organisation. It doesn't change the fact that the RUC was corrupt to it's very core, and lacked impartiality.

golden lane

if anybody killed policemen, or for that matter anybody else.....they should be put on trial...

nobody should be above the law.....

K-9

dlofnep wrote: »

Dig deep, and you'll find good men in any organisation. It doesn't change the fact that the RUC was corrupt to it's very core, and lacked impartiality.

Indeed, which is why I wonder why you selectively quoted my post and omitted the part where I agreed with you.

Crooked Jack

golden lane wrote: »

if anybody killed policemen, or for that matter anybody else.....they should be put on trial...

nobody should be above the law.....

But what do you do when the law itself is corrupt and you're left with no other choice but to defend yourself from it.

Dubhlinner

dlofnep wrote: »

The RUC colluded with loyalist terrorists, and routinely attacked and harassed the nationalist community. It was a corrupt organisation. Please don't make false assessments of the RUC as being 'good'.

The fact thousands of loyalists were jailed somewhat contradicts this conclusion.

From the books I've read and anecdotes I've heard from Catholics who lived through the troubles the image of the RUC as some sort of unionist militia is completely unfounded.

Even looking at the beginning of the RUC they chose to keep the emblem of the RIC and not use a red hand (which was proposed and designed) This was intended so they would have a cross community ethos. They also initially reserved a third of the recruitment places for catholics which represented the percentage of society in northern ireland that were Catholic

The RUC was about 12% catholic before Patten. If it was really as bad as is made out there'd be no Catholics at all. Catholic members of the UDR was far lower. The real reason numbers were so low was predominantly the fear of IRA. Hence since the IRA have stood down numbers of catholics have gone up.

One particularly good book was "Into the Dark. 30 years in the RUC" by Johnston Brown. He was the one who had Pat Finucane's killer put away. He retired after Johnny Adair had his house bombed

His main point throughout the book was RUC special branch and collusion + protection of terrorists.

The sad thing is it appears special branch have been forgotten but the ordinary RUC officers who assisted the RC community and locked up thousands of loyalists have taken the hit in terms of their legacy being rewritten.

tfitzgerald

It was a war situation things were done by both sides . I think it's time to move on now and try and work on the peace

battle_hardend

golden lane wrote: »

if anybody killed policemen, or for that matter anybody else.....they should be put on trial...

nobody should be above the law.....

do you want to open a can of worms , if you put mc guinness on trial , you put countless former RUC men on trial too

battle_hardend

Dubhlinner wrote: »

The fact thousands of loyalists were jailed somewhat contradicts this conclusion.

From the books I've read and anecdotes I've heard from Catholics who lived through the troubles the image of the RUC as some sort of unionist militia is completely unfounded.

Even looking at the beginning of the RUC they chose to keep the emblem of the RIC and not use a red hand (which was proposed and designed) This was intended so they would have a cross community ethos. They also initially reserved a third of the recruitment places for catholics which represented the percentage of society in northern ireland that were Catholic

The RUC was about 12% catholic before Patten. If it was really as bad as is made out there'd be no Catholics at all. Catholic members of the UDR was far lower. The real reason numbers were so low was predominantly the fear of IRA. Hence since the IRA have stood down numbers of catholics have gone up.

One particularly good book was "Into the Dark. 30 years in the RUC" by Johnston Brown. He was the one who had Pat Finucane's killer put away. He retired after Johnny Adair had his house bombed

His main point throughout the book was RUC special branch and collusion + protection of terrorists.

The sad thing is it appears special branch have been forgotten but the ordinary RUC officers who assisted the RC community and locked up thousands of loyalists have taken the hit in terms of their legacy being rewritten.

seamus mallon ( a moderate many by anyones measure ) once described the RUC as 94% protestant - 100% unionist

battle_hardend

K-9 wrote: »

There were plenty of good RUC men, officers who as many would say "touted" to the Stalker Inquiry at great personal risk.

There's a danger of mixing up the RUC, the organisation, and good, professional coppers.

independant thought is rare in most police forces

Chuck Stone

Dubhlinner wrote: »

From the books I've read and anecdotes I've heard from Catholics who lived through the troubles the image of the RUC as some sort of unionist militia is completely unfounded.

14 July 1969 Francis McCloskey (67) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died one day after being hit on head with batons during street disturbances, Dungiven, County Derry.

17 July 1969 Samuel Devenny (42) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died three months after being badly beaten in his home, William Street, Bogside, Derry. He was injured on 19 April 1969.

14 August 1969 John Gallagher (30) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Special Constabulary (USC)
Shot during street disturbances, Cathedral Road, Armagh.

14 August 1969 Patrick Rooney (9) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Shot at his home, during nearby street disturbances, St Brendan's Path, Divis Flats, Belfast.

15 August 1969 Hugh McCabe (20) Catholic
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
On leave. Shot during street disturbances while on the roof of Whitehall Block, Divis Flats, Belfast.

15 August 1969 Samuel McLarnon (27) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Shot at his home during nearby street disturbances, Herbert Street, Ardoyne, Belfast.

15 August 1969 Michael Lynch (28) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Shot during street disturbances, Butler Street, Ardoyne, Belfast.

01 December 1969 Patrick Corry (61) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died four months after being hit on the head with batons, during altercation between local people and Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) patrol, Unity Flats, off Upper Library Street, Belfast. Injured on 2nd August 1969.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/1969.html

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Fratton Fred

So the murder of two RUC officers is ok then?

Crooked Jack

well at the time, yes. It was.

john reilly

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So the murder of two RUC officers is ok then?

a result

[MOD]Just to make it absolutely clear that this kind of thing is completely unacceptable. One week ban. Permaban if I see this kind of post again.[/MOD]

Fratton Fred

Crooked Jack wrote: »

well at the time, yes. It was.

why?

what did these two men do that gave someone the roght to deny their families of a father/husband/son?

john reilly

Fratton Fred wrote: »

why?

what did these two men do that gave someone the roght to deny their families of a father/husband/son?

they where members of a terrorist organisation

Fratton Fred

john reilly wrote: »

a result

john reilly wrote: »

they where members of a terrorist organisation

That's either very disturbing, or just plain childish.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

why?

what did these two men do that gave someone the roght to deny their families of a father/husband/son?

In situations of conflict, individual checks of character are not carried out. It's part of the 'horror of war' oft referred to.