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Lowry A picture says a thousand Words

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    #32
    Sappa
    Registered Users Posts: 885 ✭✭✭Sappa


    This country is rotten to the core with this sort of thing,its politicians looking after themselves and their cronies and feck the rest.


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    #33
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    danjo wrote: »
    If he was ostracised by the Government then he would have no influence and eventually no votes.
    Eh, he was forced to resign as Minister for Communications and from FG? How much more ostracism do the people of North Tipp want?


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    #34
    rodento
    Registered Users Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    djpbarry wrote: »
    danjo wrote: »
    If he was ostracised by the Government then he would have no influence and eventually no votes.
    Eh, he was forced to resign as Minister for Communications and from FG? How much more ostracism do the people of North Tipp want?
    That hasn't stopped FG ministers from queueing up to see him


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    #35
    danjo
    Registered Users Posts: 589 ✭✭✭danjo


    According to the Irish Times today, Lowry does not have to specifically declare, to the Oireachtas, interest in land he owns in Tipp. : LINK

    How convenient is that for our great legislators! :(

    This is of course Openess and Transparency


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    #36
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    rodento wrote: »
    That hasn't stopped FG ministers from queueing up to see him
    Define "queueing up to see him".


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    #37
    rodento
    Registered Users Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    Well let me see...

    Shatter accusses paper of witch hunt

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0413/1224314682110.html

    Hogan-Lowry meeting - Questions raised

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/0406/opinion/lowry-hogan-fallout--ministers-should-heed-warnings-189600.html

    the scheduled meeting was longer than any afforded to any other TD or senator from any other party during his first year in office.

    And lets not forget that this is one hell of a long meeting for someone the minister has no truck with

    Yet within two days of the meeting Mr Hogan assured the Dáil that he would have "no truck for those found to have behaved as described by Mr Justice Moriarty"    .

    Noonan met Lowry last year after adverse Moriarty
    report

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0406/1224314441382.html

    So can someone define "Something Sinks"


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    #38
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    rodento wrote: »
    Well let me see...

    Shatter accusses paper of witch hunt

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0413/1224314682110.html

    Hogan-Lowry meeting - Questions raised

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/0406/opinion/lowry-hogan-fallout--ministers-should-heed-warnings-189600.html

    the scheduled meeting was longer than any afforded to any other TD or senator from any other party during his first year in office.

    And lets not forget that this is one hell of a long meeting for someone the minister has no truck with
    Yet within two days of the meeting Mr Hogan assured the Dáil that he would have "no truck for those found to have behaved as described by Mr Justice Moriarty".
    Noonan met Lowry last year after adverse Moriarty
    report

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0406/1224314441382.html

    So can someone define "Something Sinks"
    So three TD's have met Lowry in his capacity as TD? Is that it? Because that falls a long way short of "queuing up to meet him".


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    #39
    rodento
    Registered Users Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    More like three senior government ministers.

    Can you list any other non government TD who has such access to the government.

    And can you explain how a government minister can have ascheduled meeting which was longer than any afforded to any other TD or senator from any other party during his first year in office, even though that minister has no truck for those found to have behaved as described by Mr Justice Moriarty


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    #40
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    rodento wrote: »
    More like three senior government ministers.
    That's still a small queue, although it seems more accurate to say that Lowry was queuing to meet the ministers in question, rather than the other way 'round.

    Are you suggesting that no TD should meet with Lowry under any circumstances?


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    #41
    rodento
    Registered Users Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    And should we completely ignore the findings of the moriarty tribunal


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    #42
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,554 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    You are wasting your time lads. F.G. supporters are every bit as blind and uncaring as F.F. supporters. They just don't want to see the wrongs their party do and minimize everything.


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    #43
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    rodento wrote: »
    And should we completely ignore the findings of the moriarty tribunal
    I am neither supporting nor defending Lowry or FG. What I am alluding to is that it would be completely impractical for a particular party or group of TD's to refuse to meet with any one TD or group of TD's. For starters, FG wouldn't have anything to do with FF (and vice versa) and SF would be roundly ignored.

    The fact that Lowry is in the Dail and FG have to deal with him is not the fault of FG. It's the fault of the electorate in North Tipp.

    But of course, since I don't live in Ireland any more, I may be forgetting that, in Ireland, everything is the government's fault and the electorate are completely infallible.


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    #44
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    tayto lover wrote: »
    You are wasting your time lads. F.G. supporters are every bit as blind and uncaring as F.F. supporters.
    I'm not an FG supporter, although I would ask if there are any Irish political parties that boardsies don't consider supporting unacceptable? I know all the cool kids are anti- whoever happens to be in power at present, but it's not very practical, is it?


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    #45
    EchoO
    Closed Accounts Posts: 353 ✭✭EchoO


    djpbarry wrote: »

    Are you suggesting that no TD should meet with Lowry under any circumstances?

    No, but I also don't expect FG's chief whip to go on RTE's drivetime, at the height of the Lowry media storm, refusing to answer whether or not he accepts the Moriarty Tribunal findings and then dismissing those findings as opinion.


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    #46
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,554 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I'm not an FG supporter, although I would ask if there are any Irish political parties that boardsies don't consider supporting unacceptable? I know all the cool kids are anti- whoever happens to be in power at present, but it's not very practical, is it?

    Its not about being pro or anti any party. Its about failing or refusing to see the wrongs associated with the party. Irish people are only too willing to turn a blind eye to their politicians and that is a big part of the reason we are where we are. Corrupt politicians should be ostracized by everyone especially other politicians.


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    #47
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Corrupt politicians should be ostracized by everyone especially other politicians.
    But how is that going to work in practice? Who decides what defines corruption? Individual parties? Could FG simply decide that they were not going to entertain representations from a particular TD or group of TD's, leaving those TDs' constituents without a voice in the Dail?

    As I said above, I'm not defending Lowry at all, nor am I defending those who vote for him. But the fact remains that he has been democratically elected and he has to be treated as such.


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    #48
    rodento
    Registered Users Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    Do you not think some people should be debarred from politics


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    #49
    lisasimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭lisasimpson


    just to point out that the jounalist in question has being harressing him in the worst way going. sitting for hrs outside his house, following him around to whereever he goes when he leaves the house ringing him in etc. no regardless of who it is I have heard reports of what that journalist is doing. now pissing someone off like that and following them when they drive of the way it was done is a serious road safety issue there arent the straightest of roads around his lowrys house


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    #50
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    rodento wrote: »
    Do you not think some people should be debarred from politics
    Ignoring for a moment the certain criteria must be met before a TD can take their seat in the Dail (a tax clearance cert must be provided, for example), more generally, who would decide who should be barred and what criteria would be need to be met? Take Lowry for instance - on what grounds would he be barred from the Dail, bearing in mind that he has not (as far as I am aware) been convicted of any crime (yet)?


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    #51
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,554 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Ignoring for a moment the certain criteria must be met before a TD can take their seat in the Dail (a tax clearance cert must be provided, for example), more generally, who would decide who should be barred and what criteria would be need to be met? Take Lowry for instance - on what grounds would he be barred from the Dail, bearing in mind that he has not (as far as I am aware) been convicted of any crime (yet)?

    No Bankers convicted either but would you let them handle your money ?


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    #52
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    tayto lover wrote: »
    No Bankers convicted either but would you let them handle your money ?
    How many people in Ireland do not have bank accounts?


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    #53
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,554 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    djpbarry wrote: »
    How many people in Ireland do not have bank accounts?

    Bertie and probably Seanie, Fingers etc and those who are trying to hide it. Unless they have put it in their wives names of course.


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    #54
    rodento
    Registered Users Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Ignoring for a moment the certain criteria must be met before a TD can take their seat in the Dail (a tax clearance cert must be provided, for example), more generally, who would decide who should be barred and what criteria would be need to be met? Take Lowry for instance - on what grounds would he be barred from the Dail, bearing in mind that he has not (as far as I am aware) been convicted of any crime (yet)?

    Do you not think a finding from a tribunal should at the very least debar someone from taking political office:eek:

    Leaving them free to try and clear their name if they so wish


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    #55
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Bertie and probably Seanie, Fingers etc and those who are trying to hide it. Unless they have put it in their wives names of course.
    Great. Any chance you could answer my earlier questions?
    rodento wrote: »
    Do you not think a finding from a tribunal should at the very least debar someone from taking political office
    How would that work in practice? Remember, a tribunal is not a court - he's not been found guilty of a crime (although he is obviously guilty of acting immorally).

    Again, I'll stress at this point that I think it's shameful that the electorate in North Tipp repeatedly return Lowry to the Dail, but I really don't think barring certain individuals from holding office is the way to approach this. We shouldn't be asking how do we bar certain individuals from the Dail. What we should be asking is why the hell are these individuals being elected in the first place.


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    #56
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,554 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    djpbarry wrote: »
    But how is that going to work in practice? Who decides what defines corruption? Individual parties? Could FG simply decide that they were not going to entertain representations from a particular TD or group of TD's, leaving those TDs' constituents without a voice in the Dail?

    As I said above, I'm not defending Lowry at all, nor am I defending those who vote for him. But the fact remains that he has been democratically elected and he has to be treated as such.

    The political parties should themselves define what corruption is and make sure they are well above it. But of course they can't because they are aware of their own members having shady dealings and the leaders might even be associated with them.
    Constantly meeting with Lowry after what the Tribunal said about him was just in-your-face politics i.e. arrogance. That's just my opinion. I know the Tribunal is not a court but to just seemingly ignore it's findings after being part of setting it up or agreeing to it being set up makes the whole episode worse.
    I will never cease to be amazed by the difference in the standards of politicians when in opposition and then when they get elected. It's sickening.


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    #57
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    tayto lover wrote: »
    The political parties should themselves define what corruption is and make sure they are well above it.
    But Lowry is independent?
    tayto lover wrote: »
    I know the Tribunal is not a court but to just seemingly ignore it's findings...
    Who's ignoring it's findings? The Gardai certainly aren't.


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    #58
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,554 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    djpbarry wrote: »
    But Lowry is independent?
    Who's ignoring it's findings? The Gardai certainly aren't.

    Lowry is Independent now but obviously still on very friendly terms with some/many F.G. members. It just does not seem right at all.

    I don't know what the Gardai are taking seriously or indeed ignoring with regard to the Tribunals but I do hope they are digging deep for evidence of criminality inc bribery and corruption.


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    #59
    Wider Road
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Wider Road


    djpbarry wrote: »
    tayto lover wrote: »
    The political parties should themselves define what corruption is and make sure they are well above it.
    But Lowry is independent?
    tayto lover wrote: »
    I know the Tribunal is not a court but to just seemingly ignore it's findings...
    Who's ignoring it's findings? The Gardai certainly aren't.

    Have we (or you djpbarry) any evidence that the Gardai are certainly not ignoring the findings of the Tribunal?


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    #60
    LONE WOLFF
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭LONE WOLFF


    djpbarry wrote: »

    Again, I'll stress at this point that I think it's shameful that the electorate in North Tipp repeatedly return Lowry to the Dail

    Lowry is loved and hated in equal measure down here.
    The main problem is that 50% of the people love him.


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    #61
    Wider Road
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Wider Road


    LONE WOLFF wrote: »
    djpbarry wrote: »

    Again, I'll stress at this point that I think it's shameful that the electorate in North Tipp repeatedly return Lowry to the Dail

    Lowry is loved and hated in equal measure down here.
    The main problem is that 50% of the people love him.


    That's just not true.
    Why did you decide to text that 50% love Ml Lowry? How can you back that up?
    I think you made up a figure, why?


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