Irish Rail fine because I bought two tickets with one student card

Billyum

Irish Rail are tryin to fine me €120 quid!

Their problem is! I bought two student tickets with my student travel card last january, one for me and one for another passenger and apparently thats not allowed! I did think of this when buying them but i said if its wrong then either A) the machine wont sell them to me or the ticket inspector wont let us through. I bought the tickets together from the kiosk at the station and it happily sold them to me without prompting me that this was not allowed! not only that, the ticket inspectors checked my ticket and the other passengers ticket and asked for my travel card at the the station, they said! yeah thats fine, have a nice journey! Our tickets and my student car were checked again after we had to change trains by another inspector, here again he said, yes thats fine bla bla bla.....

Then three months later i get a letter to the effect "this was actually not ok and you owe us 120 quid"... i had a good laugh and ignored it but now iv another letter saying the going to prosecute me! lol:mad: if i dont pay within a week, do they actually pursue these things?????

I dont know about you but i think after having two inspectors checking the tickets and the machine selling me them in the first place that coming back 3 months later is bollocks. If the inspector had asked us to pay the full fair, or informed us we were doing wrong, the other passenger would have payed them. If inspectors are going to let people through without checking tickets properly then by right, they should shove their letter up there hole.....

Any similar experiences or thoughts?

frozenfrozen

Can you just tell them your student id card was lost/stolen and that you can not be held accountable for anything it was used for? and claim that it was the ticket inspectors fault for not properly identifying the user(s) of the card at the time.

L1011

I would have thought it was blatantly obvious that a student discount only applies to the student themselves.

An inspector not knowing all the rules doesn't change anything.

Billyum

MYOB wrote: »

I would have thought it was blatantly obvious that a student discount only applies to the student themselves.

An inspector not knowing all the rules doesn't change anything.

Of course it changes it, the purpose of an inspector is to check the validity of passengers tickets, he examined them and expressly stated that they were fine.

Mycroft H

Each discounted fare must have the specific id attached to it. You need the student travel card for each person for each discounted fare as the persons ID is printed on the ticket.

Each person needs an individual student travel card, long story short. You could chance appealing the fine but ignorance of the law is no defense.

Billyum

I understand that, i do, but i wasnt sure of it at the time, its just why didnt the inspector pick up on it there and then? we would have willingly payed the full price, instead of waiting 3 months and charging €120, Its just annoying...

MrJoeSoap

Billyum wrote: »

Of course it changes it, the purpose of an inspector is to check the validity of passengers tickets, he examined them and expressly stated that they were fine.

And the purpose of a student ticket is to provide a discount for a student with the relevant travel card. It's quite clear you know that you were in the wrong here, but that you are shifting the blame onto the ticket inspectors.

The thing I don't understand is the process in the background between you showing your card and the letter making its way to you three months later. Surely if you had just briefly shown your ID there wouldn't have been any notice taken of your name and details etc? Seems a bit bizarre that two ticket inspectors have told you that you were fine to travel, then issued you with a fine.

Out of interest, have you contacted Irish Rail at all about this?

PS - If they've issued a fine, then issued a notice to prosecute, you'd be best off taking it seriously and not ignoring it like you've done to date.

MrJoeSoap

Billyum wrote: »

I understand that, i do, but i wasnt sure of it at the time

Again, ignorance won't wash in this situation. Surely anyone with a bit of awareness would realise a student couldn't just buy another student ticket for anyone? And if in doubt, ask before you buy.

frozenfrozen

I presume the ticket machine flagged the purchase of two tickets.

daddydick

Did you really think that just because you have a student card that you can get discounts for more than yourself??? Come off it!

Title is incrediblly harsh, you were at fault

frozenfrozen

As a 16 year old I had to pay 47 euro for a return ticket to dublin from limerick because I wasn't carrying a student card at the time, can I go and claim back the difference after the date or are they happy to stick with how it worked out for them?

OP if the person you bought the ticket for was also a student I see no problem with what you did and you should do as I said and claim your id was stolen and you can't be held accountable for what happened. If the person was not elegible to own a student card then you are the "prick" in this situation.

Billyum

frozenfrozen wrote: »

I presume the ticket machine flagged the purchase of two tickets.

No it didnt

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Again, ignorance won't wash in this situation. Surely anyone with a bit of awareness would realise a student couldn't just buy another student ticket for anyone? And if in doubt, ask before you buy.

Im not sayin ignorance is going to wash the situation at all, but after TWO! separate officials had told us that we could travel??? and then somebody else turn around and say this wasnt the case? their contradicting themselves

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

And the purpose of a student ticket is to provide a discount for a student with the relevant travel card. It's quite clear you know that you were in the wrong here, but that you are shifting the blame onto the ticket inspectors.

The thing I don't understand is the process in the background between you showing your card and the letter making its way to you three months later. Surely if you had just briefly shown your ID there wouldn't have been any notice taken of your name and details etc? Seems a bit bizarre that two ticket inspectors have told you that you were fine to travel, then issued you with a fine.

Out of interest, have you contacted Irish Rail at all about this?

PS - If they've issued a fine, then issued a notice to prosecute, you'd be best off taking it seriously and not ignoring it like you've done to date.

The travel card ID number has to be entered in the machine, they can get your contact details from that

Tragedy

Billyum, did your friend have a travel card?

Billyum

frozenfrozen wrote: »

As a 16 year old I had to pay 47 euro for a return ticket to dublin from limerick because I wasn't carrying a student card at the time, can I go and claim back the difference after the date or are they happy to stick with how it worked out for them?

OP if the person you bought the ticket for was also a student I see no problem with what you did and you should do as I said and claim your id was stolen and you can't be held accountable for what happened. If the person was not elegible to own a student card then you are the "prick" in this situation.

They were a student! they had a student card! but not a travel card! I just want to make clear!! both of us are students!

Billyum

Tragedy wrote: »

Billyum, did your friend have a travel card?

she did! iv told them this!! it wasnt "present" at the station

Tragedy

Billyum wrote: »

They were a student! they had a student card! but not a travel card! I just want to make clear!! both of us are students!

It shouldn't have sold you the two tickets without requiring two student travel cards and the ticket inspectors should have flagged the issue too.

I also don't see why it's your problem and not your friends. You had a student travel card, machine didn't ask for a second, and it's your friend and IR's problem thereafter.

Kristopherus

frozenfrozen wrote: »

As a 16 year old I had to pay 47 euro for a return ticket to dublin from limerick because I wasn't carrying a student card at the time, can I go and claim back the difference after the date or are they happy to stick with how it worked out for them?

OP if the person you bought the ticket for was also a student I see no problem with what you did and you should do as I said and claim your id was stolen and you can't be held accountable for what happened. If the person was not elegible to own a student card then you are the "prick" in this situation.

That advice is wrong. You are advising the OP to lie. Why that?:eek:

Victor

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Can you just tell them your student id card was lost/stolen and that you can not be held accountable for anything it was used for? and claim that it was the ticket inspectors fault for not properly identifying the user(s) of the card at the time.

Lying, fraud and/or perjury aren't good.

Billyum wrote: »

They were a student! they had a student card! but not a travel card! I just want to make clear!! both of us are students!

Billyum wrote: »

she did! iv told them this!! it wasnt "present" at the station

How do you reconcile those two statements?

Billyum

Victor wrote: »

Lying, fraud and/or perjury aren't good.

How do you reconcile those two statements?

The other passenger had a University ID card that day, they also have a student travel card but not with them at the station because it had expired with two weeks! as had mine! but IR allow a month for you to get a new one so they were both valid at the time, its just the other passenger didnt have their travel card with them!

Victor

You do realise that it all sounds very convenient?

Tragedy

Victor wrote: »

You do realise that it all sounds very convenient?

Why would it? Most students I know have a student travel card, in the OP he mentioned the tickets were bought in January. I have no idea if IR allow one months grace to get a new Travel Card, but what about his posts are convenient?

Billyum

Victor wrote: »

You do realise that it all sounds very convenient?

I dont understand what you mean Victor? which part is convenient? The part about forgetting the travel card?? the other passenger still has it for me to show to them, or the part about the months grace? I only know thats the case because the ticket inspector who allowed me onto the train pointed it out to me

MrJoeSoap

Here's the thing...

You've nothing to prove to anyone on this forum. Whether or not what you're saying is the absolute truth, a stretching of the truth or a fabrication is pretty much irrelevant to everyone on here. The main issues here are that you did not act when you initially received notification, you decided to ignore it. I know if it were me, I'd be straight onto them by phone, email, post and any other way possible to clear my name.

Instead, you've now waited and received a secondary notice mentioning prosecution and yet again you've hesitated and avoided the issue. To some people, myself included, that seems to indicate a possibility of guilt. The use of language like 'had a good laugh' and 'it happily sold' are defence mechanisms to sell your argument that don't really fly...

It's always easier to go onto a message board and call an organisation "pricks" rather than face up to the issue itself. Both you and your friend should be contacting Irish Rail to clear your name(s) straight away.

I'd be very interested to hear how this turns out.

BluntGuy

Moved to commuting and transport.

Honestly, that's prob not a good thread title. Just saying.

montreal2011

If the machine did not request you to enter both cards and the inspectors did not request proof which you could not present then I don't see what case they have on ye.

If ye had valid cards at the time, or two weeks out of date but within the month grace period, then send them a photocopy of each. If you renewed within the month grace period then send them also.

If ye did not get new cards, does that month grace period still apply? If not then it would seem that the fine might have to be paid . . .

foggy_lad

Billyum wrote: »

Irish Rail are tryin to fine me €120 quid!

Their problem is! I bought two student tickets with my student travel card last january, one for me and one for another passenger and apparently thats not allowed! I did think of this when buying them but i said if its wrong then either A) the machine wont sell them to me or the ticket inspector wont let us through. I bought the tickets together from the kiosk at the station and it happily sold them to me without prompting me that this was not allowed! not only that, the ticket inspectors checked my ticket and the other passengers ticket and asked for my travel card at the the station, they said! yeah thats fine, have a nice journey! Our tickets and my student car were checked again after we had to change trains by another inspector, here again he said, yes thats fine bla bla bla.....

Then three months later i get a letter to the effect "this was actually not ok and you owe us 120 quid"... i had a good laugh and ignored it but now iv another letter saying the going to prosecute me! lol:mad: if i dont pay within a week, do they actually pursue these things?????

I dont know about you but i think after having two inspectors checking the tickets and the machine selling me them in the first place that coming back 3 months later is bollocks. If the inspector had asked us to pay the full fair, or informed us we were doing wrong, the other passenger would have payed them. If inspectors are going to let people through without checking tickets properly then by right, they should shove their letter up there hole.....

Any similar experiences or thoughts?

By checking your ticket and allowing you to travel the agents of Irish rail have fully validated both tickets!

It would be the same as being told by some ticket checker that you could board and make a journey for free, you and your friend were allowed to travel by an authorised person so they can't come back months later and change their own rules!

corktina

big lesson here: 90% of advice given on boards is wrong....contact IE or pay the fine,you wont get anywhere argueing your case on here.

Rock of Gibraltar

Yeah this is simply a legal question so you need to talk to someone who knows what they're talking about, consumer protection law, and not a bunch of people who know the in's and out's of transport in Ireland.
If you're op is correct and you're being fined for Irish Rail selling you something, which is totally ridiculous, then if I were you i'd get onto the free legal aid people and see if you can get it thrown out.

Here is their website: http://www.flac.ie/

AlekSmart

Billyum wrote: »

They were a student! they had a student card! but not a travel card! I just want to make clear!! both of us are students!

May I ask the nature of your studies Billyum ?,as in,are you a seasoned Student Travelcard user ?

The same question for your accompanying friend..?

I find it illuminating to discern the breakdown of these types of Student Travel Discount "problems" as it may well point to a deeper deficiency in our entire educational process ?

goingnowhere

You broke the rules, you knew you were breaking the rules and after some close calls the nasty people in Irish Rail finally caught you. Totally legit cop you broke the rules and now you will be dragged kicking and screaming the pay up.

As AlexSmart says it is amazing the frequency of these issues and it does raise a question as to our education system.

The ticket system is audited and if multiple tickets are issued against the same ID number or multiple tickets for different journeys on same day you WILL be hearing from Irish Rail

Consumer law doesn't apply here, the OP broke the terms and conditions and therefore invalidated the contract of travel. Rail Safety Act applies as there was intent to defraud by not having the valid documentation for the ticket. The documentation is only required during the journey so purchase in advance without the ID card is allowed.

Tragedy

goingnowhere wrote: »

You broke the rules, you knew you were breaking the rules and after some close calls the nasty people in Irish Rail finally caught you. Totally legit cop you broke the rules and now you will be dragged kicking and screaming the pay up.

As AlexSmart says it is amazing the frequency of these issues and it does raise a question as to our education system.

The ticket system is audited and if multiple tickets are issued against the same ID number or multiple tickets for different journeys on same day you WILL be hearing from Irish Rail

Consumer law doesn't apply here, the OP broke the terms and conditions and therefore invalidated the contract of travel. Rail Safety Act applies as there was intent to defraud by not having the valid documentation for the ticket. The documentation is only required during the journey so purchase in advance without the ID card is allowed.

He had a student travel card for his own ticket, what terms and conditions did the OP break to invalidate his contract of travel?

schemingbohemia

Tragedy wrote: »

He had a student travel card for his own ticket, what terms and conditions did the OP break to invalidate his contract of travel?

1 - He bought a second ticket for someone else.
2 - He used it after it's expiry date which he knew about, the fact that IE allow a period of grace was not known to the OP prior to purchase so he was trying to use his travelcard illegally in his own mind.

Tragedy

schemingbohemia wrote: »

1 - He bought a second ticket for someone else.
2 - He used it after it's expiry date which he knew about, the fact that IE allow a period of grace was not known to the OP prior to purchase so he was trying to use his travelcard illegally in his own mind.

1) Why would IE allow a second ticket for a student journey on the same train without asking for a second STC number if he wasn't allowed to buy it? That's IE's problem.
2) It doesn't matter what was legal or illegal in his own mind.

corktina

I'm afraid your opinion is worth squat unless you can post a shot of your Doctorate of Law cert of course:)

Corkbah

Tragedy wrote: »

1) Why would IE allow a second ticket for a student journey on the same train without asking for a second STC number if he wasn't allowed to buy it? That's IE's problem.
2) It doesn't matter what was legal or illegal in his own mind.

Seriously !! .... so if I think its ok and perfectly legal to kill someone because I don't like them you think its ok ???..... whether you think its illegal or not ....the law is clear and the terms and conditions of the travel card are usually on the back or on a piece of paper which was signed at the time of purchase.

IR would have specified 1 card entitles 1 person to purchase a discount rail fare, the card must be present for the journey and must be for the person who holds the ticket.

I cant speak for everyone but if you have an expiry date on something like a travel card it means after that date you cannot use it (at least that would normally be the thinking) - so if the OP knew his/her card was out of date they would have been chancing their arm in the first place....they got tickets and thanks to IR system of cross referencing tickets with travel cards a fine was issued....pay the fine or goto the four courts some monday and try to argue that IR should have stopped you from originally entering the train after you illegally tried to break the rules.....

fact of the matter is ...you broke the rules, and it has come back to haunt you ...learn your lesson now ,pay the fine ...goto court and see if you can get leniency.

Tragedy

Corkbah wrote: »

Seriously !! .... so if I think its ok and perfectly legal to kill someone because I don't like them you think its ok ???..... whether you think its illegal or not ....the law is clear and the terms and conditions of the travel card are usually on the back or on a piece of paper which was signed at the time of purchase.

Ehh...no? I said it doesn't matter what he thought was legal or illegal, it only matters what is legal. You're the one arguing the opposite.

IR would have specified 1 card entitles 1 person to purchase a discount rail fare, the card must be present for the journey and must be for the person who holds the ticket.

But they allowed him to buy 2 tickets with 1 card. So even if they specified he could only buy 1 ticket, the ticket machine specified he could buy 2.

I cant speak for everyone but if you have an expiry date on something like a travel card it means after that date you cannot use it (at least that would normally be the thinking) - so if the OP knew his/her card was out of date they would have been chancing their arm in the first place....they got tickets and thanks to IR system of cross referencing tickets with travel cards a fine was issued....pay the fine or goto the four courts some monday and try to argue that IR should have stopped you from originally entering the train after you illegally tried to break the rules.....

There's zero evidence of illegality so far.

fact of the matter is ...you broke the rules, and it has come back to haunt you ...learn your lesson now ,pay the fine ...goto court and see if you can get leniency.

There's zero evidence he broke the rules so far.

Corkbah

zero evidence he broke the rules !!

what was the expiry date on the OP's travel card ? what was the date of travel ?

Card was out of date ...expired and to the normal person...NOT VALID ! (lets leave the fact tickets were purchased to the side for now please) .... so at the point of purchase the OP knew his/her travel card was invalid or expired...but tried his/her luck anyway.

Can you or the OP list off the terms and conditions of the travel card - I'm fairly certain it mentions only one card can be purchased with each travel card .... again ...breaking the rules !

EDIT: if the "official" terms and conditions state you can only purchase one card but a staff member tells you you can purchase 15 tickets .... who do you believe ? do you think the staff member is telling porkies ??? the official rules would be written on the travel card T&C's so ... those are the correct rules - 1 ticket per travel card.

Tragedy

Corkbah wrote: »

zero evidence he broke the rules !!

what was the expiry date on the OP's travel card ? what was the date of travel ?

Card was out of date ...expired and to the normal person...NOT VALID ! (lets leave the fact tickets were purchased to the side for now please) .... so at the point of purchase the OP knew his/her travel card was invalid or expired...but tried his/her luck anyway.

But the travel card was still valid as long as he had a new one within one month of expiry of the old one.

Can you or the OP list off the terms and conditions of the travel card - I'm fairly certain it mentions only one card can be purchased with each travel card .... again ...breaking the rules !

Doesn't matter, if the ticket machine allowed him to buy two it isn't his fault or problem.

EDIT: if the "official" terms and conditions state you can only purchase one card but a staff member tells you you can purchase 15 tickets .... who do you believe ? do you think the staff member is telling porkies ??? the official rules would be written on the travel card T&C's so ... those are the correct rules - 1 ticket per travel card.

Legally, if the staff member tells you you can purchase 15 and you purchase 15, they have zero comeback against the individual. I can't believe you don't even know that...

foggy_lad

The tickets were bought with one travel card which is wrong, yes no argument.

The op may or may not have been pulling a fast one, who cares.


The ticket machine which Irish rail are always trying to claim is exactly the same as a booking office allowed the purchase of invalid tickets, it even invalidated the tickets by printing the same travel card number on both tickets, this is the first validation of the tickets.

By checking the tickets and allowing the passengers travel without the required documentation the ticket checker who is an authorised agen of Irish rail is validating an otherwise invalid ticket and from that point onwards no fines can be issued in relation to that ticket!

Then the tickets were checked again by another authorised agent who yet again validated the tickets by allowing them to be used!

It would be the same if you bought a ticket for Galway in error when you want to go to Waterford, as long as the ticket checker tells you to board the train you have permission to travel with that wrong/invalid ticket!

MrJoeSoap

Tragedy wrote: »

Doesn't matter, if the ticket machine allowed him to buy two it isn't his fault or problem.

My local ticket machine will allow me to buy unlimited child tickets, so your argument doesn't hold much water there.

Tragedy

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

My local ticket machine will allow me to buy unlimited child tickets, so your argument doesn't hold much water there.

Really? It seems to back up my argument perfectly. An adult can buy a child's ticket despite not being entitled to using it himself.
Your argument would suggest that if a Mother bought a child's ticket for their daughter to use, they would be liable for prosecution because a child's ticket can only be bought by a child.

Nonsensical.

foggy_lad

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

My local ticket machine will allow me to buy unlimited child tickets, so your argument doesn't hold much water there.

If you get a child ticket checked by the ticket checker at the station and tell them it is the wrong ticket and they still allow you travel using the child ticket they are validating an otherwise invalid ticket!

MrJoeSoap

Tragedy wrote: »

Really? It seems to back up my argument perfectly. An adult can buy a child's ticket despite not being entitled to using it himself.
Your argument would suggest that if a Mother bought a child's ticket for their daughter to use, they would be liable for prosecution because a child's ticket can only be bought by a child.

Nonsensical.

My argument would suggest nothing of the sort, you are the one who is being nonsensical here. The machines aren't to blame here, you're the one who is blaming them.

foggy_lad wrote: »

If you get a child ticket checked by the ticket checker at the station and tell them it is the wrong ticket and they still allow you travel using the child ticket they are validating an otherwise invalid ticket!

I'd agree with that, my issue is that I have difficulty in believing the OP's story fully, and I'd seriously question why he didn't reply immediately to Irish Rail after receiving either letter. Apologies for being so cynical but the use of language in the first post isn't that of someone who has been hard done-by.

frozenfrozen

If I received a fine in the post for this I would also be calling them pricks, it's not that ridiculous of a thing to do given the situation.

MrJoeSoap

frozenfrozen wrote: »

If I received a fine in the post for this I would also be calling them pricks, it's not that ridiculous of a thing to do given the situation.

I'd be calling them.

Far easier to dodge the issue itself and be a keyboard warrior though. And it wasn't the word pricks I was referring to.

Maldesu

Written terms and conditions apply over verbal so whatever the Irish Rail has published applies. They back of the ticket probably states that T&C applies rather than listing them out.

You can buy more than one ticket as it facilitates multiple purchases, but to travel on a student ticket, you must be able to prove you are a holder of the student travel card, which means it must be valid and available to view.

OP just said that the inspectors checked it. What did they check? Just the date to see if was valid? Have a quick look? Did OP explicitly say 'I'm getting two tickets on my travel card and my friend is going to use one?'

Either way it may simply fall back to the original T&C's.

Tragedy

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

My argument would suggest nothing of the sort, you are the one who is being nonsensical here. The machines aren't to blame here, you're the one who is blaming them.

Yes it would.

You're saying it doesn't matter what the ticket machine does or doesn't allow or who purchases the ticket(in the child ticket case), it's about the individual ticket and whether that individual is entitled to use it - while arguing that it's about whether the purchaser was entitled to use the ticket he was purchasing even though he wasn't intending to use it.

Billyum was entitled to use the individual ticket he purchased.

If you don't see how your argument is nonsensical or contradictory...well, I can't help you.

foggy_lad

3. Except as provided in Bye-Law No. 4, no person other than an authorised person shall—

(1) enter any lift or pass any ticket barrier unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling the holder to enter such lift or pass such barrier; and such ticket or other authority shall be produced on demand to any authorised person; or

(2) enter any vehicle for the purpose of travelling unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling him or her to travel therein.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

What this means is that you may not enter any part of a station past the barriers or enter any train without a valid ticket or other authority obtained from any authorised person.

If you have the wrong ticket or no ticket and a staff member allows or permits you to travel they are validating your otherwise invalid ticket or authorising you to travel without a ticket

Tragedy

Maldesu wrote: »

Written terms and conditions apply over verbal so whatever the Irish Rail has published applies. They back of the ticket probably states that T&C applies rather than listing them out.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Almost all T&Cs state that they supersede prior verbal and written agreements. That doesn't mean that written applies over verbal, that just means that the t&c box you tick just before you purchase anything has you agreeing to it superseding any prior terms&conditions. You're confusing method with timeline.


Are these the terms and conditions for Irish Rail? http://www.irishrail.ie/media/ConditionsOfTravel1.pdf

If so,

The
holder of a student ticket must also have a valid student identity card as may
be specified from time to time by Iarnród Éireann

That's the only relevant bit in the whole thing.

OP held a valid student identity card.

foggy_lad

Tragedy wrote: »

Are these the terms and conditions for Irish Rail? http://www.irishrail.ie/media/ConditionsOfTravel1.pdf

If so,

That's the only relevant bit in the whole thing.

OP held a valid student identity card.

Even if the op had no student travelcard but presented with a student ticket by actually checking that ticket and after being informed of an issue with the travelcard still allowing them to pass the barrier and board the train the ticket agent is authorising travel on an invalid ticket so no fine can subsequently be issued in relation to that ticked as it is a valid ticket.

frozenfrozen

Irish rail: