Some thoughts on the support thread about sexual assault victims

Dubhlinner

I've been reading boards for years and I have to say it is the most significant thread I have ever read.

It is frightening because it demonstrates how rape is not only misunderstood - but also that the most common type of sexual assaults and rapes do not register in societal thinking.

When I saw stats before about 1 in 5 American women being victims of sexual assault I thought it was skewed by things like ass grabbing in a night club. Though now I realise it is because I was completely ignorant of the scenarios sexual assault and rape can happen in.

I actually contributed anonymously to the thread but I wasn't a victim of a severe case.

I wonder could the type of cases in the thread be used to educate people at an early age. Anti-rape campaigns tend to focus on protecting yourself from violent attacks from unknown attackers. This in itself is not a bad thing but it really does nothing to address the most common assaults and rape scenarios where the attacker is known to the victim - either in the capacity of a close friend/family member... or someone they recently met.

The really scary thing is it appears to me that a lot of the attackers in the cases know exactly what they are doing - but also know the scenario means the person will be unable to report them for various reasons.

I can't give precise examples because obviously it would be completely wrong to start picking apart the details of someone's personal contribution. However I think it is unambiguously clear this is true in many cases.

Does this mean we should educate people to be a lot more wary about who they put themselves in vulnerable situations? which in turn means defining vulnerable situations a lot more broadly.

The danger here is that it may erroneously be perceived as mitigating the attacker's actions as it puts responsibility for actions on an innocent. Victims may end up blaming themselves (even more than they already do) As well as causing unnecessary mistrust of friends who would never violate someone in such a manner.

Where do you strike a balance is what I'm getting at. There has been some good work by police agencies about consent. I have seen pamphlets which outline that without getting clear consent before sex it is rape. The issue here is that many attackers know this and very well seem to know they'll be immune from prosecution because it will be impossible for a court to rule out the possibility of the incident being consensual.

What do you think education and awareness agencies (if anything)should do differently? I really think society needs to be better educated in the contexts of how sexual assault and rape are likely to happen

LegacyUser

That thread is one of the reasons I rarely come on here now and no longer post on boards. As much as I respect the issue it's brought to the forefront, I found it incredibly difficult to read through and much as I tried to stop myself I found myself doing it anyway.

I can't even begin to explain to you just how completely and utterly soul destroying it is to read your worst fears verified in text in front of you; to know that other people are thinking the kind of thoughts that attack your sanity every single day; to know that there are other people who also doubt you as much as you doubt yourself. I did post my story in one of the threads, but I didn’t address the posters who judged me for it so I’m doing it now.

It’s okay for me to battle with these thoughts, it’s okay for me to fight against the fear that it was somehow my fault – because that’s my scar, MINE. But you? You think you have a right to judge me? To make me feel even worse when I didn’t think it was even possible? You were not there. You have no idea what happened. You aren’t living my life right now, in fact you have no idea what it’s even like to be forced to live a life you no longer have any interest in living. To have all hope taken away from you, to lose every piece of the person you once were to the point where you doubt you’ll ever be whole or find yourself again. Life is about control, you control the direction you take, the people you love and the decisions you make – when that’s taken away from you it feels like an attack on your humanity. You no longer feel like a person, you feel used; like trash that’s of no use to anyone. You no longer have a purpose, you can’t have friends because you can’t be anything to anyone, you can’t give anything when you have nothing to give, you can’t love anyone when you can’t love yourself….when you hate yourself.

I have good days now, thank god and sometimes I feel a little less numb – sometimes I FEEL. A good day for me is feeling something, even if it’s pain, having the strength to feel that pain is a good day for me – it means I care about something. It’s not perfect, but I’m getting by and I’m determined to find my way back. Jesus though, you aren’t making it any easier!!

Do you know how hard it is to love someone, but know you can never tell them because they could never possibly love you back? To feel so broken and damaged that you’re terrified no-one could ever love you again? No, you don’t.

Do you know what it’s like to be put in a position where all of your control and choice is taken from you? Do you know what it’s like to have that happen twice? Do you know what it’s like to manage to get away only for it to happen again? And to be so scared the second time that you can’t move, to be so frozen with fear that you start to think you deserve it and feel like complete and utter scum and blame yourself.. because it’s just made you hate yourself so much?

Do you know what it’s like to make yourself sick because you can’t stand the sight of yourself anymore? Not to be able to stand the touch of anyone else because it reminds you of it all? Because it reminds you of what a fuk up you are.

Do you not think it’s bad enough to go through all of that and to feel all of that, without other people judging you for it too?

This is my life now, but fuk what you think, I’m still here and that’s the biggest fuking accomplishment I’ve made in my life so far. I’m proud of myself for that, so as much as your words hurt and as much as each line strips away another piece of me, I still believe in myself and I know I can do this.

I won’t let them win and I won’t let you win.

Please think before you judge.

saa

Dubhlinner wrote: »

I actually contributed anonymously to the thread but I wasn't a victim of a severe case.

I wonder could the type of cases in the thread be used to educate people at an early age. Anti-rape campaigns tend to focus on protecting yourself from violent attacks from unknown attackers. This in itself is not a bad thing but it really does nothing to address the most common assaults and rape scenarios where the attacker is known to the victim - either in the capacity of a close friend/family member... or someone they recently met.

Severe case or not its still can be just as hard to cope with.
I think you need to teach people how to communicate and where to go if someone has done something that is not right, not serious enough in the victims eyes to go to the police but not right whether that be a teacher, family member or stranger. Instead of the don't talk to strangers we peddle to kids now.
So dealing with young children it wouldnt be about rape as such as its hard to understand that as a child and if that happened to a child they would probably be manipulated or worried about protecting the perpetrator(s) and trying not to get in trouble so who can they go to if everyone around them is an authority figure, not sure where schools are now with this issue but I doubt its very far.

Children aren't very good at articulating these things and most teachers don't see the signs in their behaviour that something has changed and then if it is noticed social workers are only able to deal with the more severe cases with "evidence" and then children need parents permission to access most services so if their parent(s) are hurting them and want to keep whats going on secret where do they go. Very sad indeed.

Fox McCloud

It has been one of the most difficult threads to read on boards, every time I go back to it and read the updates I cant think straight for hours afterwards. I keep trying to think of something that could be DONE to help victims of sexual assault and prevent both the assaults happening and the victims extra burden of confusion and guilt which comes from society as a whole not understanding sexual assault properly.

Educationally, something does have to be done regarding victims and their support networks. I think as much as possible the 'grey area' needs to be eliminated. The victim of an assault is never responsible, and as a society we need to start sending that message out that there is nothing a person could do that would make them in any culpable for being the victim sexual assault. We need to get rid of this idea so that when someone is the victim of a serious attack they dont need to spend one second wasting time thinking about whether what happened to them was wrong and whether they were in some way to blame for the circumstances in which they were attacked.

The alarming thing about the thread is the clear pattern emerging, which has so little resemblance to what most people think they know about rape and sexual assault in general.
There is no boogey man, no anonymous strangers.
There is circumstances and people who take advantage of them by commiting terrible crimes against their victims.
It seems like its very hard to judge a situation by the circumstances and the perpetrators behaviour because until the moment they take the oppotunity to commit a terrible crime there is not much of a giveaway. From all the posts so far, rapists blend very well into society, know their victims and count alot on societies misconception of rape in order to get away with their crime.

On one hand I want to show this thread to everyone I know, and publicise it as much as possible because this education is so important. This would not be fair to those who bravely and fearlessly posted though so I wont be doing that. It is their decision what to do with their experiences. I would suggest for those willing to consider some kind of publication, a collection of stories anonymously, that could reach many audiences from an eductional point of view. It is just a suggection, I dont for one second think that anyone should share more than they are comfortable with.

I just want to say to everyone who has posted in the thread, you are some of the most brave, amazing people for going through what ye have and sharing your stories here.

LeeHoffmann

From all the posts so far, rapists blend very well into society, know their victims and count alot on societies misconception of rape in order to get away with their crime.

+ a million

jackdock88

Plus one. It is depressing

Ambersky

I would just like to say that I thought for a long time before making a contribution to that thread. In the beginning I thought it was just going to get reduced to an unsavory argument about whats rape and whats not or those wanting to post about percieved unfairnesses to men. But all of that was tackled really well, I think, by the Mods and others. Some of the earlier posters who were challenged on wording or accounts of their own experiences were probably hurt and Im sorry for that. But then once it was stated that it was a support thread and no messing would be tolerated, it did get going into a long line of real accounts, story after story telling it like it is or was for each poster.

I can well understand some of the interuptions wanting to post about theories and the implications of other peoples posts, as I have come to more than one conclusion about sexual assault, rape and the relationship between the sexes myself.
But it is good to hear the power of the individual story.
Listening to and reading the stories I think I have learned for example from at least one male poster telling a story in what sounded like a simple honest questioning account.
I hope others are learning too.

Ambersky

Ummm is it ok to post this here?
This is the theory bit. I guess I want to keep hoping rape and sexual assault can be reduced. Not saying its the full answer but think this kind of thing has a place in education for what you might think is common sense but isnt due to the myths surrounding the subject.
I wanted to keep this bit seperate from the story.
http://www.theunexpectedtnt.com/2012/01/partial-success-dont-be-that-guy.html

Dont be that Guy Campaign

This week, the Globe and Mail reported the first success of the Don't Be That Guy campaign in Vancouver. Faced with a rising sexual assault rate, the Vancouver Police Department (VPD) introduced the program on July 8, 2011, and saw a rapid turnaround in statistics in just six months. The incidents of reported sexual assault fell by 10%. Vancouver is the campaign's first success story.

Millicent

saa wrote: »

Severe case or not its still can be just as hard to cope with.
I think you need to teach people how to communicate and where to go if someone has done something that is not right, not serious enough in the victims eyes to go to the police but not right whether that be a teacher, family member or stranger. Instead of the don't talk to strangers we peddle to kids now.
So dealing with young children it wouldnt be about rape as such as its hard to understand that as a child and if that happened to a child they would probably be manipulated or worried about protecting the perpetrator(s) and trying not to get in trouble so who can they go to if everyone around them is an authority figure, not sure where schools are now with this issue but I doubt its very far.

Children aren't very good at articulating these things and most teachers don't see the signs in their behaviour that something has changed and then if it is noticed social workers are only able to deal with the more severe cases with "evidence" and then children need parents permission to access most services so if their parent(s) are hurting them and want to keep whats going on secret where do they go. Very sad indeed.

This post really stuck a chord with me. I remember the "stranger danger" videos we had to watch in school with, IIRC, Pajo (anyone else remember him?!) We were taught to watch out for strangers and to run and tell someone if an odd man tried to get you into his car with sweets or something. The horrible thing is, we were shown those videos in the years where I was being sexually abused and they did nothing to help. I wasn't in danger from a stranger--I was in danger from someone I knew well, loved and trusted.

We were never taught what to do with that sort of burden. It's no good telling a child to "tell someone". What happens then? Kids aren't stupid; they know stuff isn't that simple. I was terribly afraid that my abuser would get in serious trouble or that I wouldn't be believed. Why not tell children what happens in those instances? That's useful information, not "Stay away from the man in the white van with sweeties". If someone had have said to me, "You being safe is more important than that person being punished" or "If that happens, someone will step in to help in whatever way they can", my rational child's brain would have have accepted that and taken the help.

What you said about teachers missing the signs also sprang a memory from my mind. For a pretty lively, bright child, I am baffled looking back how teachers missed how withdrawn I was.

I remember someone coming into give us a talk the year after we first saw the videos to reiterate that "Just tell someone" message. At that stage, I was so sick of the abuse that I finally steeled my resolve--I was going to tell someone.

So at the end of the talk (and the end of the school day), I stayed very still as my classmates left so they wouldn't ask me why I was hanging around and wrote, "It's happening to me" in my best handwriting on a sheet of paper. I waited for the lady who had just given the talk to leave so I could hand the page to the teacher.

And I waited. And I waited. And God forgive me, but those two stupid cows stayed shooting the breeze for about twenty minutes, all the while never paying attention to the eight-year-old girl clutching a piece of paper close to her chest, rooted to the spot at her desk long after the school bell had rung. I gave up a little while later and left without handing over the note. It still amazes me and angers me to this day that those two, who were supposed to be child professionals, couldn't pick up on such a blatant cue from a small child. If they had have, the abuse might have stopped that day. It didn't.

Sorry for getting so personal with that anecdote but I thought your post brought up several important points. Teaching children to "tell someone" or avoid strangers does them absolutely no good. Using cop on and informing them appropriately but totally on the many nuances of sexual crime will.

Ectoplasm

Jesus Millicent...the image of you with that note actually brought tears to my eyes. All I can say is I am so sorry that those two women were so utterly clueless.

You're right though, children are often far smarter than we give them credit for and sticking with the 'stranger danger' message is doing them a disservice.

Millicent

EMF2010 wrote: »

Jesus Millicent...the image of you with that note actually brought tears to my eyes. All I can say is I am so sorry that those two women were so utterly clueless.

You're right though, children are often far smarter than we give them credit for and sticking with the 'stranger danger' message is doing them a disservice.

Thank you.x

I think we need to teach kids that no matter who it is, unwanted touching is wrong, no matter what the reason is. That be they a stranger, a friend, a family member or someone else, it's wrong. That it's not their fault if it happens, and that that person won't be allowed to hurt them or their family if they tell, or if the family doesn't believe them (as I've heard in a few sad stories) that there are people who can step in and mediate.

The stranger danger thing is far too over-emphasised, especially given how few cases involve a stranger. It's doing at risk kids a disservice.

Neyite

Millicent wrote: »

Thank you.x

I think we need to teach kids that no matter who it is, unwanted touching is wrong, no matter what the reason is. That be they a stranger, a friend, a family member or someone else, it's wrong. That it's not their fault if it happens, and that that person won't be allowed to hurt them or their family if they tell, or if the family doesn't believe them (as I've heard in a few sad stories) that there are people who can step in and mediate.

The stranger danger thing is far too over-emphasised, especially given how few cases involve a stranger. It's doing at risk kids a disservice.

Your confusion is the same as I felt - it wasnt a stranger offering sweets from a van, this was the neighbour (distant cousin of one of the parents) who I was sent to on a regular basis. We had it drummed into us that we didnt talk back to adults or not do what they say, so I was terribly confused. I didnt even know the vocabulary for it or even to describe it. the best I could have described was that it was "tickling" just like my mother did all the time, but not under my arms or behind my knee like she would do, he just did it between my legs.

My abuser was found out when I (normally a quiet obedient child) had a crying fit when the mother tried to put a dress on me. When she heard me sob "X only tickles me when I've a dress on so I want to wear trousers!!" she got alarm bells, and whisked me straight into the doctor. Even then, my father at the time instinctivley thought she was being hysterical, that such a horror could not happen to his child by someone he knew and trusted. Years later he told me how much he regretted that disbelief.

I plan on teaching my children what good touching is, (for example, a hug) and what bad touching is (under clothes, private parts) from as soon as they are old enough to understand. Very basic at first, but as they get a little older that can be added to in very small informal chats along the way.

miec

Jesus Millicent...the image of you with that note actually brought tears to my eyes. All I can say is I am so sorry that those two women were so utterly clueless.

+ 1.

FouxDaFaFa

The behaviour of those women was unbelievable, Millicent. Your post moved me to tears, I could picture you so clearly. I don't understand how they didn't notice/wilfully ignored you. I hope other educators are doing a better job.

The focus is pretty exclusively on stranger danger. Bizarrely, I think the only scenario my class was ever taught was wrong was a man (always a man) in a van offering sweets. It wouldn't have occurred to me that my childminder could do something bad to me or a friend's parent or whatever. We shouldn't instill fear and paranoia into kids but we need to teach them more.

regged for this

Millicent -
That is one of the most deperately sad things I have ever read. I wish you every strength in your continued recovery from what you were forced to deal with.

Haven't posted anything in the other thread yet and not sure if I will. For me the thread highlights the continuing silence around these issues (despite the incredible bravery and honesty we've seen on the thread so far I'm sure there's much being left unsaid).

I think we need to re-educate, both sexes. But especially men - and men need to learn to stand up for the women around them and condemn the inappropriate behaviour of their male contemporaries. Instead too much is passed off as cameradery (sp?) and boys being boys. Even though a man mightn't agree with what he sees go on around him how many stand up and speak out? I've seen it happen only once or twice....
Thanks to all of the brave contirbutors ot the thread both male and female, I will continue to follow it. Its one of the most poignant and significant threads I've seen on here in my 6/7 years of lurking.

LegacyUser

Millicent, I just wanted to say what a heartbreaking post. It is hard to find words to say. As a secondary teacher this has really made me think about being even more vigilant and aware with my students. Thank you for sharing.

Millicent

Gotmethinking wrote: »

Millicent, I just wanted to say what a heartbreaking post. It is hard to find words to say. As a secondary teacher this has really made me think about being even more vigilant and aware with my students. Thank you for sharing.

I am so, so gratefully happy to hear that that I'm close to tears (good tears though!). While it was a crappy thing to happen to me, the thought that someone who has such massive influence over countless children and teenagers came away with with that, really helps and gives me such hope and validation.

Thank you everyone who empathised with me. It means more than you could know. As much as Boards winds me up sometimes, it's threads like these that remind me what amazing, kind, thoughtful people this site attracts.

Millicent

I've been thinking about this thread a lot, especially in the context of Gotmethinking's post and how wonderful it felt to have my experience heard by someone in a position to help.

With that in mind, and given what amazing posters we have seen in this and the other sexual assault thread, I wonder would anyone be interested in campaigning for change in some way?

Both threads have proven that as much progress we as a country have made on sexual violence, we still have a way to go.

Between us, I'm sure we could come up with some ways in which society and law is failing sexual crime victims in some way. If we could identify even a few, we could organise ourselves and make a real difference to others' lives.

What does everyone think? The more I think about this, the more excited I get. It could really be a way to take some power back, whether we've been the victims of a sexual crime, know someone who has or have any interest in the topic.

I really love how supportive these threads have been and know that they've helped me and others to deal with our pasts. This would take it just one step further and help us to support so many other people.

Just a suggestion.

Da Shins Kelly

The sexual assault thread makes me very sad, but I am really amazed and kind of uplifted by how understanding the majority of people are and how willing people are to tell their stories. Although I've never been a victim of sexual assault (thankfully), I can only imagine that it must offer some comfort to others who have been and have maybe been unable to articulate their feelings on what happened to them. I think it's a really important thread, and one of the best on Boards. A credit to the site, really.

And Millicent, that was an incredibly sad story, but the fact that another poster has taken it on board shows just how important it is to tell these stories. You don't know how many people could be saved from a bad situation as a result.

Fenian Army

Was a very informative thread... very sad too, I couldn't read it all in one go, bit by bit over a few days.

A few years ago I was at a house party in a friends house. I knew everyone there and there was this girl (a friend)at it who I really fancied, anyway long story short after a while she got utterly obliterated on vodka, couldn't stand. Anyway I generally can't stand drunk people so I let her be, she was kinda passed out on the couch. I went off and hung out in a different part of the house and left her by herself to sleep it off. Bout a half hour later I went to check on her but she was gone. I went looking and as I neared the jacks I saw the door closing, then it locking. I was about to turn around and leave when I saw the light in the toilet went off. I was like "wtf?" so I went and knocked on the door, I heard a guy(friend) going "shhhhhh" then muffled laughter. I guessed that it was the girl. I hammered on the door and he eventually opened it and told me to fcuk off, I forced my way in and she was lying slumped in the corner doing that kind of laugh drunk people do, he had his belt and pants open. I told your man to get lost, grabbed her and deposited her in the sitting room, put her on the couch and she promptly fell asleep. I stayed in the room and watched the telly.

I got some amount of abuse for what I did, he, and a few of our friends(tbh they mainly stayed out of it and didn't seem to care at all), thought I cock blocked him out of jealously and tbh it got to a stage were I wasn't sure I did the right thing, if I had overreacted. She herself said something along the lines of "sure I wouldn't do anything with him! What a creep hahaha" Maybe in her own head she was saying something different, or was in denial.

After reading the thread I'm fully convinced I did the right thing... I'm also sad at the fact that if I hadn't have had my eye on her I wouldn't have paid one bit of attention to what was going on and god knows what would have happened in that bathroom. Its also sad that my friends, who are all decent guys (except the would be culprit) just didn't care about what the guy did, they just laughed at the fact I foiled his efforts.

After reading that my friends all sound like massive dicks, but they really aren't. I'm still friends with them all (we were 18 at the time) except with the guy who took her into the bathroom. Maybe now they are older their attitudes have changed...

There is something seriously wrong when young well educated men don't think there is anything majrly wrong with what he tried... tbf if they read the thread they would get clued in quick. People think of rape or sexual assault as the dragged down an ally type scenario... Maybe if teenagers, boys and girls, in schools read accounts like in that thread they would better know what sexual assault and rape really is.

KamiKazeKitten

Gotmethinking wrote: »

Millicent, I just wanted to say what a heartbreaking post. It is hard to find words to say. As a secondary teacher this has really made me think about being even more vigilant and aware with my students. Thank you for sharing.

Millicent, as a trainee primary school teacher I'd just like to say gotmethinking described how I am feeling right now perfectly. The image you described is just so dámn heartbreaking, I'd just like to say thank you for sharing and making us pause to think.

Neyite

I remember something similar happening at a house party I was at too Fenian.

It was a work colleagues birthday so the usual pub-club-house party setup. One of my work colleagues got hammered, her legs were buckling and she was in no fit state to string a sentence together, but a guy who was a buddy of the birthday boy saw her and made a bee-line for her, and was soon wearing the face off her and dry-humping against the wall. His hands were everywhere.

I went up to them both and said "X has had a bit much to drink, why dont we sit her down over here (with me and another woman at the kitchen table) and was pushed away by this guy and agressively told to "F*ck off and mind my own business" So I stood back but kept within sight and hearing distance -I heard him try to pursuade her to go upstairs or into the garden to have some privacy, and I heard her say "no, I want to stay with my friends, I'm not going anywhere with you, stop pawing me" I went to get some other lads to intervene, because of his aggressiveness beforehand to me. By this stage he was almost dragging/carrying her out of the kitchen, and she barely had the strength to stand up, let alone fight him off. I knew the minute she was horizontal somewhere she would pass out or fall asleep. And I had a fair idea what he would do then.

The reaction I got from the lads appalled me - I was accused of being a frigid bitch, jealous, a cockblocker, a killjoy. There were at least 4 guys telling me to mind my own business and let this guy take her away.

Then one sole friend of theirs who was a little older walked in, saw the situation and just went "WTF, she's hammered, get off of her", sat her down with myself and the other girls, and proceeded to ream the guy out of it. We shortly got a cab home and put her to bed.

To this day, she remembers nothing. And to this day, the guy hates me, and anytime I'm unfortunate enough to run into that group of "gentlemen" I get called "frigid bitch" by this particular guy.

I have no doubt that he'd had a skinful, as did all of us that night, but she clearly was in no position to consent. She was practically passed out standing up. I have no doubt that he considers himself a nice guy, and the furthest thing from a rapist you could think of. Yet, if he had succeeded that night, what else would he have been?

The scary part was not the guys attempt at getting his end away, it was the refusal of several adult men at that party that anything other than a consensual act was taking place. Not one of them was in any doubt that she was hammered, but none of them thought what he was doing was wrong.

I have been on the receiving end of persistant advances while drunk. I have said "no". I have left a night club only to be followed home by someone I have clearly expressed to that I am not interested in hooking up. One guy even jumped into the same cab as me, trying to come home with me, despite me telling the cabbie that he was not with me, I didnt know this guy and he had followed me out of the club. Cabbie told me to be quiet and not to be fighting with my "boyfriend"

I know that the decent guys out there far outnumber the ones who see a drunk girl as an oppertunity. But whether we argue the semantics of whether it was rape or not, having sex with a practially unconcious girl at a party is morally reprehensible.

midlandsmissus

Millicent wrote: »

I've been thinking about this thread a lot, especially in the context of Gotmethinking's post and how wonderful it felt to have my experience heard by someone in a position to help.

With that in mind, and given what amazing posters we have seen in this and the other sexual assault thread, I wonder would anyone be interested in campaigning for change in some way?

Both threads have proven that as much progress we as a country have made on sexual violence, we still have a way to go.

Between us, I'm sure we could come up with some ways in which society and law is failing sexual crime victims in some way. If we could identify even a few, we could organise ourselves and make a real difference to others' lives.

What does everyone think? The more I think about this, the more excited I get. It could really be a way to take some power back, whether we've been the victims of a sexual crime, know someone who has or have any interest in the topic.

I really love how supportive these threads have been and know that they've helped me and others to deal with our pasts. This would take it just one step further and help us to support so many other people.

Just a suggestion.

Millicent that is a fantastic post . What better thing to come out of this than to galvanise change?

After my attack last year, I've definitely been through a process of recovering, and my thoughts this year were completely turning to speaking out about it and wanting to start campaigning for some change in Ireland.

There is NOT the right education out there to young men and women about what rape/sexual assault is. Education needs to be done in schools.

There are NOT enough services for people who have been victims of sexual assault. There was woeful support available to me last year and I went off the rails into severe depression. Complete new services are needed in Ireland.

I work in community work so I have knowledge of the voluntary and community sector and funding if we wanted to set up something on a larger scale.

I'm serious about this, we can galvanise change ladies!

P.S you're a great person Millicent, you know that?

stephen_k

Some thought on the support thread...

The fact that the thread exists and is a long as it is in under a month and the fact that there is constant trolling by men that keep on at the "what is rape" question and even using it to question the right to have tLL in a thread like that make me very very depressed and ashamed...

Millicent... My God... Where to I start at how much your post has affected me today...

A few weeks ago my little fella was playing outside with his Mom, they were running in the front door when both of them tripped and the little fella fell against the door and bruised the side of his head (around his ear) and my OH hurt her leg... The next day one of the girls quizzed my OH when she was collecting the little fella on what happened, (the LF had said that mommy and LF had got hurt by running into a door, I know sounds dodgy when put like that)... I was a bit put out when the OH told me, actually I was pissed off... How dare she insinuate that I would was capable of doing something like that...

After reading these threads and Millicents posts, I realise I was and am wrong, too many times people have turned a blind eye, haven't asked the questions, ignored the obvious...

Just my two cents, to everyone who has posted here I hope you continue to find the strength to get over what has happened to you

lazygal

My primary school was quite progressive. The Stay Safe programme was piloted in it. For those who might not know it was (not sure if its still around in today's schools) an age-appropriate programme for dealing with issues like bullying, physical, emotional and sexual abuse and the like. We did it in fourth and sixth classes. Parents were allowed to opt out if they didn't want their children to participate. And several did, I presume because of references to sexual matters.

I remember doing the programme and feeling like if someone had hurt me (the phrase was 'giving you no feelings') I could go to my mum or teacher or other trusted adult (not sure if priests or the like were mentioned). But there was no information on what to do if the person hurting you was your dad or mum or teacher.

I remember being put sitting beside a boy in fifth class who hadn't been allowed to do the programme. Some 20 years on I now know he was harming himself. He would use a compass to make the skin around his nails bleed and had a lot of self-induced nosebleeds. Surely the teacher MUST have noticed something. I know I was sitting beside him but we were usually near the top of the class so SURELY she saw something or wondered why he was in and out to the toilet with blood on his hands and school jumper, which was light grey so would have been noticeable.

Since I've done the Children First guidelines and read the Murphy report that boy has haunted me. Was he being abused? Was that why his parents didn't want him having the information in the Stay Safe programme? Even if he wasn't being abused, surely there was SOMETHING going on with him to behave that way, and SURELY an adult must have seen something or had suspicions? We had the same teacher for two years so there would have been parent teacher meetings or staff meeting or SOME way of raising concerns? As I child I was annoyed by him making himself bleed but as an adult I know now there must have been something in his life not right to act that way.

regged for this

The responses to this thread indicate just how poor the social services and education in Ireland are around these issues (though evidently many of us are aware of that).

I attended school with a child who was also clearly being abused, little was ever done about it. I'd like to think things have moved on since those days. I feel dreadful that I wasn't a better friend to that child when so many of her classmates avoided her, or even bullied her because we knew there was something wrong - though we were too young to even know what abuse in the home could consist of. The fact so many adults had to have seen what was before their eyes and did next to nothing horrifies me.

I think one thing that could have an impact is improved education for boys - the emphasis is generally on girls/women being open to sexual abuse and boys/men as the perpetrators. But I think the harrowing tales of regular joe's engaging in non-consensual sexual coercion while a blind eye is turned, or the action is even condoned by the mates is so wrong. As men (the tiny minority of men) are most often the perpetrators here their contemporaries need to be educated to recognise that it's wrong and to be told its OK to stand up and call out that behaviour and condemn it.

If group mentality allows so many men to be 'carried along' by camaraderie etc that can lead to gang rape and so on, then surely this same peer pressure could be used to the opposite ends - that such behaviour is openly, vocally and loudly condemned to prevent it occurring?

Also, as an aside I was really quite disgusted by the de-railing of the support thread by those who wished to undermine it, I suspect possibly for the benefit of keeping their own consciences from prickling.


The strength and bravery shown in these threads has the power to grow and grow!


PS I know boys and men can also be abused, and women can also be abusers, I'm speaking in general terms (with regard the majority stories in the threads as women threatened by male behaviour). I love and respect the many men in my life - relatives, friends, partners and colleagues - who of course, would be appalled by the terrible things that a dreadful minority in their sex can carry out.

I guess I'm trying to say women can't stand up and fight for improved services on their own - all those good guys need to be right there beside us!

miec

@millicent and @midlandmissus, I would be very keen to create / set up a support group, information service for people who have been raped and / or sexually abused.

One of the major issues I have faced whilst dealing with social services, Gardai and one in four is the lack of proper service from all of them. I have been let down badly by each of them and have had to push on all of them to further my case. As those of you who have experienced this can understand the trauma this can cause, the disapointment, stress and long sleepless nights, and I have had to do this alone, well I don't want others to go through it alone. I want to offer support, advice and assistance to others in the same boat. I think the rape crisis do a fantastic job and there is a lot of support out there for people abused by the church but there is little or nothing for people abused / raped by family members or those they know. I think it is time a support / education group was created to 1) help and 2) educate the wider community on dispelling misconceived notions.

midlandsmissus

Great Miec!

I work in services for women - a different area, but I have knowledge on how things like this work. So I can bring that to help us .

There would be funding available to help us, but we need to have a clear direction of where we're going before we apply for any.

This will need time to get it running properly. So why don't we for now start with jotting down ideas of where we'd like to go with it. We've already established core ideas: education on acquaintance rape for males and females, and better follow up services for people who have been raped, why don't we all tr and expand on them now and jot down a few ideas, and maybe set a time each week to talk about it?

That would be enough for us for now, as I said it will take time to get running properly, so it is enough for now to get good ideas in place and a clear direction of where we want to go with it.

I'm definitely all for it though .

midlandsmissus

Is anyone on Twitter? Because I've started promoting some very women positive videos, and it would be cool if we on here followed each other . If you are PM me.

Fenian Army

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Great Miec!

I work in services for women - a different area, but I have knowledge on how things like this work. So I can bring that to help us .

There would be funding available to help us, but we need to have a clear direction of where we're going before we apply for any.

This will need time to get it running properly. So why don't we for now start with jotting down ideas of where we'd like to go with it. We've already established core ideas: education on acquaintance rape for males and females, and better follow up services for people who have been raped, why don't we all tr and expand on them now and jot down a few ideas, and maybe set a time each week to talk about it?

That would be enough for us for now, as I said it will take time to get running properly, so it is enough for now to get good ideas in place and a clear direction of where we want to go with it.

I'm definitely all for it though .

Thats quite a broad aim you have - I'd suggest limiting it to education and simply lobby for better follow up services rather than attempt to do it yourselves (maybe thats what you meant). As time goes on and as the organization grows supply the services yourselves could be examined - I just think that as you are starting off with a small amount of people and trying to do everything could lead to people getting burned out quickly (thats been my experience with things like this).

I'd also suggest meeting up in person as quickly as possible. I'm not putting down anyone here, it's just that in my experience people agree to stuff very easily on the internet but when things start taking shape they don't show up.

midlandsmissus

Fenian Army wrote: »

Thats quite a broad aim you have - I'd suggest limiting it to education and simply lobby for better follow up services rather than attempt to do it yourselves (maybe thats what you meant). As time goes on and as the organization grows supply the services yourselves could be examined - I just think that as you are starting off with a small amount of people and trying to do everything could lead to people getting burned out quickly (thats been my experience with things like this).

I'd also suggest meeting up in person as quickly as possible. I'm not putting down anyone here, it's just that in my experience people agree to stuff very easily on the internet but when things start taking shape they don't show up.

Yeah just start for now with jotting down ideas and see where we want to go. But I would ultimately be thinking big.

Not everyone has to get involved to a serious extent, as it is alot of commitent, but ideas and suggestions from everyone on here is a good starting point.

And I am thinking big, i have good knowledge of the voluntary and community sector, and I was thinking myself about doing something to implement change before Millicent mentioned it above, and where else to meet people with excellent ideas for it than here. A great point to start and exchange ideas.

My thoughts were why do men do it? ( I know women commit sexual assault as well ) but for the purpose of this thread its mostly men people are talking about.

Its an area that is not very well understood especially child sexual abuse. I listened to a radio documentary about sexual abuse in the catholic church and it said a lot of the victims were chosen by the abuser because they were vulnerable in some way i.e their father was dead and the mother was parenting alone but that still dos not explain WHY they abuse in the first place.

Fenian Army

mariaalice wrote: »

My thoughts were why do men do it? ( I know women commit sexual assault as well ) but for the purpose of this thread its mostly men people are talking about.

Its an area that is not very well understood especially child sexual abuse. I listened to a radio documentary about sexual abuse in the catholic church and it said a lot of the victims were chosen by the abuser because they were vulnerable in some way i.e their father was dead and the mother was parenting alone but that still dos not explain WHY they abuse in the first place.

Lots of people do things that I'd never contemplate doing... Why do people do horrible things? I don't think thats something that can be properly answered. Id like to think that they don't know any different/better and if they were better educated, more aware etc they wouldn't do it. But I dunno

midlandsmissus

Hey Millicent I was wondering did you find the time right after it happened the worst? Like the year after it happened for me was the worst.

Because I was thinking of a three pronged approach:
Education - with getting male role models on board to educate young men.
Acute after services - because no-one knows what to do really with a girl in the direct aftermath when she badly needs it.
Long term support and follow up for the next few years.

Millicent

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Hey Millicent I was wondering did you find the time right after it happened the worst? Like the year after it happened for me was the worst.

Because I was thinking of a three pronged approach:
Education - with getting male role models on board to educate young men.
Acute after services - because no-one knows what to do really with a girl in the direct aftermath when she badly needs it.
Long term support and follow up for the next few years.

It's hard to say, to be honest, given how young I was the first time and how much of it I've blocked out. Because of that, it was a constant for a long time in my life and it's hard to even remember a time when it wasn't or when I felt much different.

I like that idea. I do take on board what Fenian Army said as I'd be afraid of us burning out if we take on too much too quick. That said, I like your approach, especially as regards to education. I don't think it should just focus on men as, as we saw in the other thread, there are girls too who believe that "It's not rape if it's not violent/the victim is drunk" thinking.

Maybe for the other two we could research what's available already/where it falls down and act from there?

miec

I am in favour of education but with the view of going big long term. At the moment one of the things I have really struggled with is knowing what happens when a person starts legal proceedings, at the moment there is bits of information everywhere but nothing consolidated. A great information site which started small and has really developed is called Turn2me (it is aimed at suicide prevention).

Millicent

miec wrote: »

I am in favour of education but with the view of going big long term. At the moment one of the things I have really struggled with is knowing what happens when a person starts legal proceedings, at the moment there is bits of information everywhere but nothing consolidated. A great information site which started small and has really developed is called Turn2me (it is aimed at suicide prevention).

An information website could be a fantastic idea. I like Turn2me's approach--hits everything.

I would also love to see an ad campaign similar to that being done in the UK defining what rape, sexual assault and sex abuse are.

I wonder should we contact any of the big organisations (Rape Crisis, NWCI etc.) for advice?

midlandsmissus

Millicent wrote: »

It's hard to say, to be honest, given how young I was the first time and how much of it I've blocked out. Because of that, it was a constant for a long time in my life and it's hard to even remember a time when it wasn't or when I felt much different.

I like that idea. I do take on board what Fenian Army said as I'd be afraid of us burning out if we take on too much too quick. That said, I like your approach, especially as regards to education. I don't think it should just focus on men as, as we saw in the other thread, there are girls too who believe that "It's not rape if it's not violent/the victim is drunk" thinking.

Maybe for the other two we could research what's available already/where it falls down and act from there?

That's an excellent point about girls, girls need to be educated aswell. We need to get all our heads together as I don't know anything about the child abuse side. This is the place to get great people together to really galvanise change.
I agree an information website is an excellent way to go at first.
Yes, why don't we research all the organisations that exist in Ireland at the minute and see what we could do differently/what needs to be added and report back in like a week? Get some notes together. We could email each other? PM me you email address if you want

We also have a great resource group of women here who shared their stories whom we could ask what they felt they needed/where the services fell down.

Fox McCloud

I guess what we have in front of us in the thread is anecdotal evidence of a very specific pattern of perpetrators and crimes. Does anyone know is there reseach which reflects this pattern? I think this pattern should be included in a awaness campaign. The UK campiagn looks a few steps ahead of what Ireland should be doing.

The first step is getting all the facts and using these to form an interesting and engaging information campaign. Then deciding the target audience for this campaign.
What beliefs are we targeting and what are we trying to replace them with..

Ambersky

It is notoriously difficult to get statistics and facts about rape and sexual assault. It isn't that no one is interested but rather the nature of things when so many assaults go unreported. Rather a chicken and egg situation. You want actual facts and figures to counter denials and arguments and to end the myths surrounding sexual assault, but you need to end the myths to make it safe for women, men and children to be able to report crimes and trust that it will be dealt with in a satisfactory way.
I have posted some statistics in the thread on sexual assault that came from a study done by The Rape Crisis Centre which is an organisation which would be in a position to provide statistics on assaults reported to them which either resulted in an official report or which the caller did not want to report.
Those statistics are a good starting point in developing an understanding of what is going on and they are frightening statistics.
But I would like to say that some of the shortfalls or gaps in services provided by organisations like Rape Crisis Centers is due more to a lack of funding and support rather than their not thinking about it or being unwilling to help.
I think anyone interested in doing something or getting involved in sexual assault prevention or support might consider getting training from the RCC or asking if there is any way they could be supported. It could be a good starting point.

The Black Oil

It is an extraordinary thread, really, one that shows the positives of a site like boards. You'd like to think the type of experiences people have shared are being told in Templemore where the Guards are trained and in schools, but I doubt it.

Stargazer7

Thought this might be worth sharing for some people on the thread:

From Until Someone Wakes Up, a play written by Carolyn Levy and a group of Manchester College students:




Waiter: Would you like some coffee?
Woman: Yes, please.
Waiter: Just say when. (Starts to pour.)
Woman: There. (He keeps pouring.) That’s fine. (He pours.) Stop! (She grabs the pot; there is coffee everywhere.)
Waiter: Yes, ma’am.
Woman: Well, why didn’t you stop pouring?
Waiter: Oh, I wasn’t sure you meant it.
Woman: Look, of course I meant it! I have coffee all over my lap! You nearly burned me!
Waiter: Forgive me, ma’am, but you certainly looked thirsty. I thought you wanted more.
Woman: But -
Waiter: And you must admit, you did let me start to pour.

Struggling with feeling like a bit of a phoney myself at the moment so stuff like this is helpful.

Morag

It shows up the hidden world that many women live in day by day and the choices we make and how we have to be aware in a manner that most men never are and would never think we have to be.

LegacyUser

I read this entire thread the other night and it really made me think long and hard.

I counsel addicts who suffered from childhood trauma and also work part-time counselling the incarcerated. What really makes me open my eyes working with these two populations is that victims and perpetrators of any abuse tend to be within the family unit. From reading other posts on this thread, I will strongly agree that you’re more likely to be molested, raped or beaten in your home by family than outside by a complete stranger. Yet writing this sickens me as we would think that family would be capable to commit such acts or some who go as far as protecting the abusers. Unbelievable but regrettably true in some cases.

I agree with everyone’s view about more awareness. In my opinion, anyone who works with children needs to be better trained in looking out for signs of abuse and signs of sexual deviant behaviour among the vulnerable and weak. It isn’t just about the withdrawn quiet pupil in the class. It is also the aggressive one who touches inappropriately and tries to insert objects or spank them into others private areas during recess or snaps a girl’s bra or touches up her skirt in the corridors. These are not and shall never be classified as "messing around" or “boys will be boys” behaviour they need to be reported and looked after because if it’s swept under the rug, it surely will escalate into something far more serious in the future.

I am a female survivor of sexual abuse but have counselled many male victims. Some stories were heartbreaking and recently lost one to suicide. He will be forever close to all our hearts. He was a kind warm gentle soul, very intelligent and studying hard at university. He lived a life of misery and solitude. He was raped from the age of 9 by his own uncle. I sometimes wonder if he committed suicide because it was an easier route for him. The amount of alcohol he consumed on a daily basis was no longer able to numb his pain or help him forget about the past. No matter how much my colleagues and I reassured him; he still feared that he would turn into a monster like his uncle.

It is fact that when it comes to sexual abuse and rape, we are living in a world where it’s a female victim/male perpetrator based mentality. It's true that the stats on victims are majority female and the abusers are male but we really need to look at and open up more to the male victims. We have opened so much with the majority of the population which in fact has helped vastly for the females because they are more inclined to be open and less ashamed about this issue. Unfortunately, it is not the same for most male victims. They still have problems disclosing and speaking about it. They have their own personal fears and repercussions. Many fear being labelled homosexual or if in fact they really are gay, they fear people would remark that they enjoyed the abuse. Some fear people not believing them because there are few in this world who still believe it’s not possible for guys to get raped. Other fears about opening up is that they do not want to be branded as future molesters or rapists which discourages them to get the help that they need. If we want to reduce sex crimes we need to aim harder towards the other half of the population. We need to send the message that they are not alone, not to be afraid to speak out and get help. Male victims suffer the same as females but they are twice more likely to suffer in silence. They cope with the pain through addictions, suicide, and sadly becoming a risk to others.

When I ran away from home, I was focused on the why aspects of my sexual abuse and trauma. I wanted to understand why someone would commit such abhorrent acts. I got some answers and found out that my brothers were also abused by members of our extended family. In the 10 years I was away from home, I had heard of two male cousins that died. One overdosed on drugs and the other has succumbed to suicide and it was because they suffered in silence from sexual abuse they endured by the same family members. All of this really opened my eyes in a different light about the realities of sexual abuse and rape. If the abusers who also suffered from sexual abuse were encouraged and able to speak out in those younger years of their dreaded past instead of suffering in silence perhaps, just maybe, the next generation would be saved. We need to stop living in this bubble and start living in reality. It is fact that most not all that abuse was likely abused themselves.

I really think moving this thread over to the Ladies Lounge is doing a disservice to the entire populace regarding this issue. This thread would be better suited somewhere other than the Ladies Lounge because it gives out the message that it is a solely female issue and I feel it’s not. If we want more prevention and help we need to be opening up more and getting our message across to the other half of the population. We need to hear their thoughts and feelings regarding this issue. We need to hear what we can do as a society for prevention, treatment and support.

People always ask why men do it. Well we have to get into this issue further because most of the ones I know that did do it so far were abused themselves. This certainly does not mean that every abused in this world becomes an abuser or to excuse those that do commit this horrendous act. But if we have more outreach for male victims of abuse we can perhaps prevent future ones. If we paid attention to the way boys interact in schools and correct any abnormal behaviours that most dismiss as messing or boys will be boys we can hopefully decrease statistics. In order to do so, we need to put our focus towards the population that are at the highest risk of becoming perpetrators. Knowledge is power but it’s also prevention.

Wibbs

FYI Universal Issue this thread(s) started in the Ladies Lounge and only cos of a glitch in the matrix did it end up in PI. Please feel free to post, but also be aware this is the Ladies Lounge so naturally the focus is on women. The Gentlemans Club as far as I'm aware allow anon posting too(?) so it might be good thread to start there too.

Moomoo1

Dubhlinner wrote: »

I've been reading boards for years and I have to say it is the most significant thread I have ever read.

It is frightening because it demonstrates how rape is not only misunderstood - but also that the most common type of sexual assaults and rapes do not register in societal thinking.

When I saw stats before about 1 in 5 American women being victims of sexual assault I thought it was skewed by things like ass grabbing in a night club. Though now I realise it is because I was completely ignorant of the scenarios sexual assault and rape can happen in.

yep

perhaps this is offtopic, but since you've mentioned America, one of the hottest threads on reddit is http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/t0ynr/throwaway_time_whats_your_secret_that_could/?limit=500 - people being asked to reveal their deepest secrets. There's a few sexual assault topics there, including minors.