ComReg Complaints - SMS from Eircom Landlines to Three Customers (House Alarms)

jeckle

I was informed the other day by ComReg that they have only had ONE complaint regarding the issue relating to the fact that SMS messages sent from an Eircom landline to a Three mobile customer not being received, despite these messages being received by 02, Vodafone & Meteor mobile customers. Three have to make a request to Eircom to update their system in order for this basic facility to be available to their customers.

02, Vodafone & Meteor value their customers & as a result their customers have no problem receiving SMS messages from Eircom landline numbers. Three don't, but instead spend hundreds of thousands in marketing & advertising for new unsuspecting customers promoting AYCE data.

Considering this issue is well documented on boards.ie, with countless threads going back years, I think it's time that ComReg are at least made aware of the discrimination issue, & that Three are aware that ComReg are aware of the fact that unsuspecting customers are not even warned that basics such as SMS messages from an eircom landline aren't available, not even hidden deep down in their T&Cs.

I realise that the issue does not affect everyone, but bear in mind that it might in the future, so for anyone that hasn't already left Three because of this issue, or for anyone who it currently affects, or might in the future, please contact ComReg at 01 8049600 or 1890 229668 who will give you a case number. They will then advise you to make a formal complaint to Three, who must reply to this complaint within ten working days.

When making a formal complaint to Three by email you have to put FORMAL COMPLAINT in the subject line - otherwise your email will simply be ignored. I wouldn't even mention alarms to either ComReg or Three, as this seems to confuse matters at the get-go. The email address is Customer.Services.ie@3mail.com & you an CC External.Affairs.ie@3mail.com

Feel free to use the following as a template & adjust:

************************************************************************

Three Account Number: xxxxxxxxxx

To whom it concerns:

I wish to lodge a formal complaint as advised by ComReg. SMS messages as detailed below sent from Eircom landline number 0xxxxxxxx have not been received on my Three Ireland mobile number 08xxxxxxxx. SMS messages sent at the same time to both 02 & Vodafone mobile numbers were received, so I want to know why I didn't receive them please.

28/11/2011 at 20:52
28/11/2011 at 21:33
14/12/2011 at 18:12
14/12/2011 at 18:13
05/02/2012 at 17:28
05/02/2012 at 17:29
25/02/2012 at 23:50
25/02/2012 at 23:55

I look forward to your swift reply, as I need to get to the bottom of this problem in conjunction with ComReg as soon as possible.
Regards & thanks,

************************************************************************
Mightn't make a blind bit of difference as regards them doing anything, but I for one think that ComReg should at least be aware of the problem, plus the more complaints Three receive on the advice of ComReg they might even do something concrete about the issue rather than fobbing customers off in the usual form of vague meaningless platitudes & cryptic non-sensical excuses.

RangeR

People like moaning but not complaining. I like doing both

altor

Hi jeckle,

Did comreg give any indication that Three have to provide this service?

jeckle

altor wrote: »

Hi jeckle,

Did comreg give any indication that Three have to provide this service?

Hi altor,

No, the guy I spoke to the other day (he already had the details of the complaint from Sept), just said that I would need to make a fresh formal complaint, & when I received a reply they would look at it, but did give the impression that they will contact Three about the matter, so who knows.

When I do get back on to them about whatever reply I receive (& what they say in it) from Three I will quote Patrick's newest information regarding it not a being Three issue & that they have investigated and want to introduce it but cannot, so maybe ComReg will contact Eircom also.

I did contact the Competition Authority earlier, & explained the problem to them. The lady I spoke to there advised making a complaint via their website, as it would have to be forwarded to a few different divisions. She wasn't sure whether the complaint would fall under Cartels, Monopolies or Advocacy, or indeed whether it was anything that they would directly deal with, but I suppose even if it's not it's no harm for them to be aware of the problem, so will do that tomorrow. She said I should hear back from them by the end of the week.

homer.j

It will be interesting to see how you fair out jeckle. I too have this problem, I logged this with comreg last August but felt I was not getting any satisfaction due to their reply so I let it go.

The way I see it now I'm just shy of 12 months with three and if any of the other operators come out with a half decent sim only plans (this is the way to go I believe) I'd be happy to buy out the remainder of the contract and be done with this crowd.

Still in all if there's an easier way, I may as well re-log it with comreg just need to check my eircom bills for alarm activation SMS dates/times.

drunkmonkey

Any word on this? Are Patrick & Fiona doing anything to help?

Three: Fiona

Hey guys, as Patrick said in a previous thread, ; This is not a Three issue - we have investigated and want to introduce it but cannot.

podgie.

I find this very hard to believe Fiona. It easy play the blame game and say its Eircom's fault but when every other network works apart from Three I think not. The facts speaks for itself, unless yourself or Patrick wants to explain to us all why it doesn't work really.

bkehoe

podgie. wrote: »

I find this very hard to believe Fiona. It easy play the blame game and say its Eircom's fault but when every other network works apart from Three I think not. The facts speaks for itself, unless yourself or Patrick wants to explain to us all why it doesn't work really.

Presumably Eircom have to set up their SMS gateway to be aware of where to route messages going to the '3' network!

Three: Fiona

Hey guys, I know it’s not what you want to hear, but we’ve done all we can do here. If you want more info, you’ll need to chat to Eircom.

jeckle

I received a phone message & email from the strategy division of the Competition Authority advising that it would appear that ComReg would be a more appropriate state agency to deal with the issues I have raised.

I also received a phone call last week from Three giving the same old tired, lame & evasive answers : Three don't support this feature. It is a business decision. They can't say whether or not they will in the future. They refused to say whether or not they have sent a request to Eircom to update/upgrade their system in line with Meteor, Vodafone & 02. They did, however, say that it would be incorrect to state that the issue is an Eircom one, seeing as they (Three) don't support the feature, which seems to contradict what both Patrick & Fiona have claimed here on boards.

I asked why the Three website or contract T&Cs didn't clearly warn unsuspecting customers who were considering porting to Three that they could no longer receive their SMS messages, & was informed that they would pass this on to their legal team. I also requested that they would communicate the above information to me by email as I had made the complaint by email & needed to forward their reply to ComReg. I was assured that they would do so withing 24 -> 48 hours, which didn't happen.

The 10 working days from my formal complaint has now expired, so I contacted ComReg again - they will contact Three to ask them to clarify their postion on the matter.

drunkmonkey

Request for this thread to be moved to Consumer Issues. There's a lot of mis-information going on by either 3 or Eircom and another poster thread has been locked. Comreg are currently investigating and a thread should be kept open in public interest.
If it's proper place is not talk to 3 it should be in consumer issues.

Dav

OK folks, hold on.

I just read the other thread about this issue which has had to be closed.

Three are saying that they can't do anything about this. They are also saying that they cannot get into the specifics of why - I'm making a complete guess here, but I'd imagine those specifcs are probably a part of whatever sort of contract and agreement exists between Three and Eircom for handling each other's calls and business.

Now, I don't know what planet any of you are living on to think that this is the sort of thing you should have some sort of right to know because you don't. At all. So I'm telling you to stop being so beligerant and disrespectful to the staff who have told you time and time again that this isn't something they can expand on and I'm telling you to cop yourselves on if you think you should be a party to the private business arrangements between 2 companies - that is no one's business except their own.

If you can't get a text message from Eircom to Three, then you should switch one of the providers. There are dozens of companies who can have an alarm send a text message and there are plenty of other mobile providers who can receive them - the consumer can decide which suits them more.

So, I am going to let this thread continue in Consumer Issues only on the conditions that the absurdity of demanding confidendial business information stops.

Zab

I haven't noticed this issue before. Why is everybody so sure that it's three's fault even though they're saying it isn't? Seems to me that you're paying Eircom for the texts so they're the ones that should answer to you.

jeckle

Zab wrote: »

I haven't noticed this issue before. Why is everybody so sure that it's three's fault even though they're saying it isn't? Seems to me that you're paying Eircom for the texts so they're the ones that should answer to you.

Because according to Eircom the procedure requires a request to come into them from Three to update / upgrade their platform to allow Three customers to receive fixed SMS.

Three say they have done this, Eircom say they haven't, Three won't co-operate in supplying the date which they sent the request to Eircom, because seemingly divulging a date is commercially sensitive information & people have no right to know this date, despite the fact that if it was supplied it would help Eircom dig out or locate the 'missing' request form.

Zab

jeckle wrote: »

Because according to Eircom the procedure requires a request to come into them from Three to update / upgrade their platform to allow Three customers to receive fixed SMS.

Three say they have done this, Eircom say they haven't, Three won't co-operate in supplying the date which they sent the request to Eircom, because seemingly divulging a date is commercially sensitive information & people have no right to know this date, despite the fact that if it was supplied it would help Eircom dig out or locate the 'missing' request form.

Who's procedure though? Eircom's? I just don't see why you're accepting this as an answer from Eircom. Why can't they instigate things? After all, they're the ones people are paying for the texts.

That isn't to say I agree with the way Three are handling this.

BrianD

I thought the land line fad had all but died but I can see it's application for an alarm system.

Are operators obliged to provide universal service? It's assumed but is it a requirement especially on a service such as SMS. If I recall, years ago there were plenty of operators who didn't have agreements with foreign networks for SMS.

As Dav said, it's consumer choice. Switch either or both of your operators.

drunkmonkey

BrianD wrote: »

As Dav said, it's consumer choice. Switch either or both of your operators.

That's fine in Theory, the problem is if you join 3 Today and find out you can't receive texts tomorrow, 3 will charge you up to €2000 to move to any other operator. If it was simple switch this wouldn't be an serious issue.

jeckle

Zab wrote: »

Who's procedure though? Eircom's? I just don't see why you're accepting this as an answer from Eircom. Why can't they instigate things? After all, they're the ones people are paying for the texts.

That isn't to say I agree with the way Three are handling this.

Because Three are saying that they (Three) don't support this feature. Eircom do support this feature, & already do for 02, Vodafone & Meteor customers. They say that in order for another provider to be able to recive SMS they have to request it from them (Eircom).

jeckle

BrianD wrote: »

As Dav said, it's consumer choice. Switch either or both of your operators.

Of course it is, I don't think anyone needs this to be pointed out to them in fairness. But what Dav neglected to mention is that unsuspecting customers port from 02, Vodafone & Meteor could well be tied into 24 month contracts, & had assumed that they would continue to receive the same service on Three don't find out that they can't receive texts until they arrive home to find their homes or premises have been burgaled, or to get a call from A&E to discover their elderly parent has been attacked & in distress. I can't find any warning that Three don't support landline SMS on the Three website.

So, as nice as is to recieve advice such as Dav's he doesn't offer any as regards the ugly bit i.e. shelling out hundreds to get out of the contract. So, it's worthwhile pointing out that things are usually not as simple as you might think. Their are other factors involved.

Cabaal

jeckle wrote: »

Because according to Eircom the procedure requires a request to come into them from Three to update / upgrade their platform to allow Three customers to receive fixed SMS.

Three say they have done this, Eircom say they haven't, Three won't co-operate in supplying the date which they sent the request to Eircom, because seemingly divulging a date is commercially sensitive information & people have no right to know this date, despite the fact that if it was supplied it would help Eircom dig out or locate the 'missing' request form.

I understand where you are coming from but I'm amazed your taking Eircom's word as fact here,

Many people incl myself have had numerous issues with Eircom in the past and they will often tell you all sorts of stuff to get you off the phone/e-mail or whatever just so you'll go away here.

What you should be doing here is pushing Eircom to sort the matter out for you, not for you to act as a go between with them and Three...thats not your job.

Leave Eircom sort out any network issues they may have with Three, its not your job to do this esp if Three have confirmed they they've done their job,

Zab

jeckle wrote: »

Because Three are saying that they (Three) don't support this feature. Eircom do support this feature, & already do for 02, Vodafone & Meteor customers. They say that in order for another provider to be able to recive SMS they have to request it from them (Eircom).

Why do they have to request it? You're letting Eircom off the hook here for absolutely no reason. I doubt very much (with no info to back it up) that when Eircom introduced landline SMS all the operators called them to request service. I'd say Eircom called them, so that they could sell SMSs to their customers.

Neither of them are giving you the whole story here. I just think you're unfairly giving all the blame to Three.

drunkmonkey

If it was a case that Eircom were refusing Three would have raised a case with comreg like they did about Tesco. There has been no such case raised with comreg which suggests that 100% of the blame lies with 3, this also ties in with what Eircom have said.

Zab

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If it was a case that Eircom were refusing Three would have raised a case with comreg like they did about Tesco. There has been no such case raised with comreg which suggests that 100% of the blame lies with 3, this also ties in with what Eircom have said.

I don't accept that, sorry. 3 complained because Tesco were charging them too much for calls originating on 3. In the case of this thread the roles are reversed so it's Eircom that should be bringing it to Comreg if it was similar dispute. Saying it suggests that 100% of the blame lies with 3 is, frankly, ridiculous. It suggests no such thing. It isn't a random coincidence that 3 being at fault ties in with what Eircom are saying and Eircom being at fault ties in with what 3 are saying.

jeckle

Cabaal wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from but I'm amazed your taking Eircom's word as fact here,

Many people incl myself have had numerous issues with Eircom in the past and they will often tell you all sorts of stuff to get you off the phone/e-mail or whatever just so you'll go away here.

What you should be doing here is pushing Eircom to sort the matter out for you, not for you to act as a go between with them and Three...thats not your job.

Leave Eircom sort out any network issues they may have with Three, its not your job to do this esp if Three have confirmed they they've done their job,

Eircom have been co-operating to the extent that their boards Rep seems to be doing his best as regards trying to obtain information at his end, & has provided updates on what he has found out so far that isn't commercially sensitive, so this is why I'm inclined to believe what he says. He can't find any record of Three's request so I have to take that at face value. They have outlined their procedure whereas Three haven't outlined theirs.

Three just say 'it's not something that we support', 'it's a business decision', 'we have tried but can't, 'it's not a Three issue' 'chat with Eircom'. All very cloak & dagger stuff. Considering the blanket firewall they are putting up & weighing up how both companies have responded to various queries I tend to believe Eircom. I have no reason to believe Three's claim that they have done their job, as I have been getting conflicting answers from different members of their staff for months. At least I'm getting the same ones from Eircom staff.

I'm aware it's not my job, but considering the issue affects me I'm doing my best to at least get reasons why the facility is not supported by Three. My thread on the Talk to Three forum has been locked, effectively sweeping the matter under the carpet as far as they're concerned, which is one way of addressiong the issue I suppose. My Eircom thread hasn't (as yet).

The issue will not go away, even though threads are locked.

I have lodged a complaint with ComReg, & have no intention of letting the matter go. Of course I don't have a lot of confidenace that they will be able to do anything to bang the two companies heads together, but it will be interesting all the same to see what they have to say when they receive Three's vague ambiguous answers

jeckle

Zab wrote: »

Why do they have to request it? You're letting Eircom off the hook here for absolutely no reason. I doubt very much (with no info to back it up) that when Eircom introduced landline SMS all the operators called them to request service. I'd say Eircom called them, so that they could sell SMSs to their customers.

Neither of them are giving you the whole story here. I just think you're unfairly giving all the blame to Three.

As far as I know, Three wern't operating in Ireland when the feature was originally set up. The main players at the time were Vodafone, 02 & Meteor.

If three had tried to reach an agreement with Eircom, & Eircom refused to play ball, then all Three had to do was report Eircom to ComReg for a variety of reasons e.g. cartel behaviour, unfair competition in relation to communication, strategy or possibly other divisions. They haven't done this, which again is another reason why I tend to lay the blame on them.

Cabaal

jeckle wrote: »

Three just say 'it's not something that we support', 'it's a business decision', 'we have tried but can't, 'it's not a Three issue' 'chat with Eircom'. All very cloak & dagger stuff. Considering the blanket firewall they are putting up & weighing up how both companies have responded to various queries I tend to believe Eircom. I have no reason to believe Three's claim that they have done their job, as I have been getting conflicting answers from different members of their staff for months. At least I'm getting the same ones from Eircom staff.

But if they don't support it they have done their job, they've been upfront and told you that. Its not cloak and dagger its just their policy and they are very much entitled to have that policy the same as any company not supporting something.

Sure you may not like their responses but that doesn't mean they are wrong,

I'm aware it's not my job, but considering the issue affects me I'm doing my best to at least get reasons why the facility is not supported by Three.

If you know its not your job to do the leg work they why keep at it, leave Eircom sort it out....after all its in their interest as its their service that won't work properly without it.

My thread on the Talk to Three forum has been locked, effectively sweeping the matter under the carpet as far as they're concerned, which is one way of addressiong the issue I suppose. My Eircom thread hasn't (as yet).

Dav explained this, Three have advised you of their position and they are not going to post internal stuff on boards and in public domain, again this is why its a job between Eircom and Three to sort out...not you

thefishone

jeckle wrote: »

I asked why the Three website or contract T&Cs didn't clearly warn unsuspecting customers who were considering porting to Three that they could no longer receive their SMS messages

And what do Eircoms T&C say?
Do they say,we will send you a text message,except when you are on 3 mobile network?
Do they mention any exceptions at all?
You're paying Eircom for a service,(Alarm and Notification) get them to fully provide that service.

jeckle

Cabaal wrote: »

But if they don't support it they have done their job, they've been upfront and told you that. Its not cloak and dagger its just their policy and they are very much entitled to have that policy the same as any company not supporting something.

Sure you may not like their responses but that doesn't mean they are wrong,



If you know its not your job to do the leg work they why keep at it, leave Eircom sort it out....after all its in their interest as its their service that won't work properly without it.



Dav explained this, Three have advised you of their position and they are not going to post internal stuff on boards and in public domain, again this is why its a job between Eircom and Three to sort out...not you

Maybe I haven't explained it properly or maybe it's only people who are experiencing the problem that can fully appreciate it.

This is a consumer issue involving Three & Eircom, one which I am attempting to highlight with the view to both companies sorting it out, rather than sweeping it under the carpet. I am not making it my job to do so.

The Talk to Three forum exists for that very reason - to talk to Three. They actively encourage feedback from customers (of which I am one) who feel that certain features should be added or changed for improvement of the services that they provide.

Three: Patrick wrote:

We really just wanted to highlight some of the changes that have taken place within the business thanks to the feedback that you have provided....
We’re only just beginning here and we’re working very hard to deliver results on some of the other issues that you have highlighted. On behalf of Three, I would like to thank each and every one of you who have given us valuable suggestions for improvement.

Patrick

The Three Reps regularly ask posters to bump the thread in a few days time or a weeks time in order for their convenience & to prevent queries or suggestions just being forgotten or threads just disappearing. The 'Thanks for your feedback… here’s some results' sticky lists the changes & improvements made as adirect result of customer feedback. If constant feedback wasn't received these changes would not have been made. Quite a lot of the changes that have been made were originally met with 'it's not something we currently support' etc, & if customers hadn't kept at them changes would not have been made. It was no-ones job to highlight issues, but people did it because it affected them directly. They didn't like the answers they got from Three but they kept at it until changes were implemented. The SMS issue affects me directly.

A recent problem involving iPhone owners who had ported to Three having problems with Facetime/iMessage involving substantial sums being charged, were first met with answers such as 'it's not a Three issue', 'talk to Apple' etc. Three still haven't officially admitted that it is a three issue & the problem can be solved by getting a new SIM, even though this is the solution. It was no-ones job to highlight these issues either, & if people had originally accepted the excuse that it wasn't a Three issue they would still be getting these large bills & still wouldn't be able to activate or use Facetime or iMessage. It was no-ones job to highlight issues, but people did it because it affected them directly. They didn't like the answers they got from Three but they kept at it until changes were implemented. The iMessage/Facetime charges didn't affect me directly.

So the idea that the best thing to do is put up or shut up, or the suggestion of shelling out hundreds to be released from contract isn't going to resolve the issue. it's only if they are pushed to do something that there is any chance that they will.

I am a Three customer. Once again, for the record I didn't ask anyone to post internal stuff - unless you count a date as internal stuff.

Anyway, I have highlighted the issue & hopefully anyone who hasn't already left Three over this will take the time to lodge a formal complaint to Three & ComReg, which was the reason I posted this thread to begin with.

jeckle

thefishone wrote: »

You're paying Eircom for a service,(Alarm and Notification) get them to fully provide that service.

Eircom are not being paid for the alarm. It is not an Eircom alarm system. This has nothing to do with Eircom Phonewatch.

Sam Mac

I think it's just a matter of Three giving some straight answers to their customers, the people that keep them all in jobs by using their network. They seem to have a lot of money to be making stupid Jedward ads, yet can't fix a basic network issue? Muppets. Reason why lots of people aren't on 3. They simply can't do the basics.

Max Power 2010

To be 100% honest, there is obviously something going on between Eircom & Three.

All THREE need to do is make a configuration change on their network to allow SMS from Eircom, Eircom use the same type of message centres as any other operator so their is no difference in technology here, so nobody has to upgrade anything, its just a simple configuration change.

I wonder if THREE are trying to charge Eircom to allow their SMS terminate on the 3 network.

Midnight Sundance

To add to everything that everyone else has said, take into mind that if in the future you want the service and switch provider , it still won't work.
I was with Vodafone for years but had an 083 number, it didn't work. Had to change my entire number and get an 087 number (same acc) to get the service.

So jf you think you won't always stay with three , keep this in mind if you dont want the hassle of changing numbers.

Zab

I still haven't seen anything to absolve Eircom. It seems clear that you're getting better customer service from them, but that isn't directly related to the underlying issue and they haven't given any explanation why they can't sort this out with 3 themselves. Eircom's language is better but what they're saying is basically the same: the other guy has to sort it out for reasons we're not going to tell you.

Complain to comreg about both of them.

foggy_lad

jeckle wrote: »

Eircom are not being paid for the alarm. It is not an Eircom alarm system. This has nothing to do with Eircom Phonewatch.

Regardless of the monitoring of the alarm etc, Eircom are being paid for the text/sms message that should be recieved by the three number.

Max Power 2010 wrote: »

To be 100% honest, there is obviously something going on between Eircom & Three.

All THREE need to do is make a configuration change on their network to allow SMS from Eircom, Eircom use the same type of message centres as any other operator so their is no difference in technology here, so nobody has to upgrade anything, its just a simple configuration change.

I wonder if THREE are trying to charge Eircom to allow their SMS terminate on the 3 network.

Before one company can recieve sms or mms or calls from any other company there has to be contracts in place to cover the airtime/data associated with these messages and calls, obvioulsy there are no contracts in place between eircom and Three for SMS originating from Landlines but this may well be an area that Eircom want to get out of?

Contracts currently in place covering landline SMS to other networks may have had a 10, 15 or even 20 year timeframe because at one time SMS from your landline was seen as one of the features of the future but it is now seriously in decline.

jeckle

foggy_lad wrote: »

Before one company can recieve sms or mms or calls from any other company there has to be contracts in place to cover the airtime/data associated with these messages and calls, obvioulsy there are no contracts in place between eircom and Three for SMS originating from Landlines but this may well be an area that Eircom want to get out of?

Contracts currently in place covering landline SMS to other networks may have had a 10, 15 or even 20 year timeframe because at one time SMS from your landline was seen as one of the features of the future but it is now seriously in decline.

Yes, this is what I suspect the real problem is, but currently 02, Vodafone & Meteor customers can receive SMS from landline, which gives them an unfair advantage over Three in that regard. This, I would have thought would give Three reason to raise the issue with ComReg on the grounds of unfair competition. It's pointless complaining to Eircom & expect them to complain about themselves. It's really up to Three - I know for a fact that they have lost customers over this, which doesn't seem to bother them. They are concentrating on luring people in with ads for AYCE data & free iPhone 4S's. But, if you don't push companies to do something they never will, especially companies who have a strong presence on boards & actively encouarge feedback & suggestions.

Of course it doesn't help when people twist things around & make wild allegations about you demanding confidendial business information, when all that was asked was a simple date. They will have to supply the date to ComReg anyway.

I do realise that Three are not fully at fault here & frankly I'm not interested in the fault ratio's. The matter is now with ComReg, so assuming that they do what they are meant to do & depending on what reply they receive from Three it's up to them to decide whether or not to question Eircom. I was surprised when ComReg told me a few weeks ago that mine was the only complaint that they had received & that up to that they were totally unaware of the problem (which I find hard to believe as I had originally brought it to their attention in Sept 2011 & at least one other poster has said that they complained to them in August 2011, but neither of us followed the initial complaint up), so time will tell & if & when ComReg get back to me it will be interesting to see what they have to say about the unfair competition element.

The problem is most people don't complain & just accept & move on. I can understand why they don't complain, especially after the grief I have been given here on boards for highlighting a genuine issue. Luckily I don't take these things personally. People seem more interested in tearing your complaint apart instead of attempting to understand the importance of the actual issue, & more importantly of getting it resolved. Of course, if current rumours are correct Hutchison’s 3 Ireland could soon own Eircom, so if that goes ahead I wonder would that make any difference to their present customers being able to receive landline SMS messages from their new customers.

BrianD

jeckle wrote: »

Of course it is, I don't think anyone needs this to be pointed out to them in fairness. But what Dav neglected to mention is that unsuspecting customers port from 02, Vodafone & Meteor could well be tied into 24 month contracts, & had assumed that they would continue to receive the same service on Three don't find out that they can't receive texts until they arrive home to find their homes or premises have been burgaled, or to get a call from A&E to discover their elderly parent has been attacked & in distress. I can't find any warning that Three don't support landline SMS on the Three website.

So, as nice as is to recieve advice such as Dav's he doesn't offer any as regards the ugly bit i.e. shelling out hundreds to get out of the contract. So, it's worthwhile pointing out that things are usually not as simple as you might think. Their are other factors involved.

Can you use a different system for your alarm. I would have thought that having a mobile GSM solution to send the msg or is the msg sent from a monitoring location?

I would have thought that both parties would have to put in their T&C's that this service is not supported.

jeckle

BrianD wrote: »

Can you use a different system for your alarm. I would have thought that having a mobile GSM solution to send the msg or is the msg sent from a monitoring location?

I would have thought that both parties would have to put in their T&C's that this service is not supported.

No, there's no monitoring involved, which was the reason for the text dialler. A GSM dialler could be installed, but this would be added unnecessary expense to Three customers.

Although it is an option, it's a workaround rather than a solution, plus the fact that the text dialler works fine as it is, so the cost of the text dialler added to the cost of the GSM dialler could well amount to or go a long way towards the cost to buy out a Three contract.

BrianD

jeckle wrote: »

No, there's no monitoring involved, which was the reason for the text dialler. A GSM dialler could be installed, but this would be added unnecessary expense to Three customers.

Although it is an option, it's a workaround rather than a solution, plus the fact that the text dialler works fine as it is, so the cost of the text dialler added to the cost of the GSM dialler could well amount to or go a long way towards the cost to buy out a Three contract.

I understand that the GSM solution is better in that it's not dependent on land lines that could be cut but it depends on what you are protecting.

Another poster made suggestions of old people lying on floors beaten up. I wouldn't be relying on a SMS to save them in the first place. If one is going to rely on SMS as a core function of a security solution, surely you can't presume that it will work universally and that you must verify?

I would think it's important that both Eircom and Three flag to consumers that this interoperability does not work. So should the alarm system supplier.

jeckle

BrianD wrote:

I understand that the GSM solution is better in that it's not dependent on land lines that could be cut but it depends on what you are protecting.

Yes, & the GSM solution workaround involving added expense to Three customers (02, Vodafone or Meteor customers don't need to go to this added expense) is also dependent on GSM network coverage & the SIM being topped up. Neither options would be 100% foolproof, so all you can do is try & any system is better than no system IMO. As I said, in my case the system works perfectly well apart from due to the fact that I'm a Three customer I can't receive the texts from the text dialler that other nominated people who are customers of other networks can receive from the same text dialler.

BrianD wrote:

Another poster made suggestions of old people lying on floors beaten up. I wouldn't be relying on a SMS to save them in the first place. If one is going to rely on SMS as a core function of a security solution, surely you can't presume that it will work universally and that you must verify?

Zooming in or concentrating on one example (which you may find an extreme one & is worst case scenario) detracts from the main issue. The example of elderly people was just that: an example, not to be confused with the main issue which is the fact that Three customers are unable to receive Eircom SMS messages , whereas 02, Meteor & Vodafone customers can. Whether the SMS is to invite someone to a party, advise of alarm activation or anything else is not the core issue here.

BrianD wrote:

I would think it's important that both Eircom and Three flag to consumers that this interoperability does not work.

So would I, that's why I started the thread, which has been moved to this forum. As I said I'm not interested in blame ratio's. Three have been totally un-co-operative. Eircom have not been so far. I have raised the question of warning customers to ComReg, so hopefully as regulators they will be able to at least do something about this.

BrianD wrote:

So should the alarm system supplier.

I'm sure that they would if they could get some clarity on the matter, but they can't, or at least the ones that have attempted to on boards have run into the same brick wall that I & other Three customers have.

Jesus Christ

I can confirm that a GSM dialler is quite an expensive addon, when last I looked a GSM dialler for a HKC system was in the order of 3 or 400 euros. It's also worth adding that GSM is also susceptible to attack, via RF overload.

This is bad form on the part of Three and Eircom, and stinks of classic inter-operator rivalry and bitching. I think it's unfair to attack the OP for their efforts to try and resolve this issue, it seems clear that bringing ComReg into play somehow is the only way forward. If it means a little bit of fudging, so be it, the operators are fully qualified to recognise it, what with being experts themselves.

RangeR

What most of you fail to realise is simple Business Economics. Chances are, Three made a business decision NOT to interoperate with eircom landline SMS as the ratio of expenditure:revenue is just too damn high.

SMS is dying. It's no longer the cash cow it used to be. It may not totally die, but it's a shadow of it's former self. There is fook all money in this platform. Asking a company to implement hardware for this interop is like asking them to burn 10's of thousands in wasted hardware.

This is just not going to happen. Too few people want it. There would be near 0 income for it.

drunkmonkey

Ranger I think the people who had a combined €48 million worth of their goods stolen from their homes last year might not see it the same way you do.
There is a demand for it, regardless what you seem to think.

BrianD

Surely there is an onus on the alarm supplier/installer to flag this issue up during the sales process? It would be deceptive of them if they didn't.

drunkmonkey

BrianD wrote: »

Surely there is an onus on the alarm supplier/installer to flag this issue up during the sales process? It would be deceptive of them if they didn't.

You could have had the alarm installed 5 years ago and were with o2, then you decided to change mobile networks and only then do you know it won't work with 3. The installer would have no idea your going to switch mobile networks in the future. Some installers warn people they can't move to 3 ever or that if there with 3 it won't work.

RangeR

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ranger I think the people who had a combined €48 million worth of their goods stolen from their homes last year might not see it the same way you do.
There is a demand for it, regardless what you seem to think.

People relying on SMS alerts for goods worth a combined €48 million, should re-evaluate their security process.

In ANY environment, even with interop in place, SMS's have absolutely no guarantee of getting through. It's a best effort. Think UDP rather than TCP.

Anyway, it's a slightly moot point as rumour has it that eircom are ditching landline SMS. Actually, they should have done so 6 months ago.

BrianD

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You could have had the alarm installed 5 years ago and were with o2, then you decided to change mobile networks and only then do you know it won't work with 3. The installer would have no idea your going to switch mobile networks in the future. Some installers warn people they can't move to 3 ever or that if there with 3 it won't work.

Well I would have thought that it would be essential that the alarm manufacturer point this out to all customers as the GSM module is either an integral part of the system or an official add on. There should be a list of compatible suppliers and a warning that you need to check compatibility of service if you change.

Not every landline operator supports SMS on their landline handsets so it's a limited market and if the alarm co is selling this feature they need to flag possible limitations and that you need to check what your telecoms supplier supports now and in the future.

Perhaps this is not a telecoms issue but an alarm product issue - or a an alarm system that should be sold better?

jeckle

BrianD wrote: »

Perhaps this is not a telecoms issue but an alarm product issue - or a an alarm system that should be sold better?

The Competition Authority has advised that ComReg is the appropriate state agency to deal with the issue. If ComReg felt that it was not a telecoms issue, or was out of their remit, I can only assume that they would not have entertained the complaint to begin with, & made a suggestion as to who might be the relevant authority/regulating body to deal with the issue.

drunkmonkey

BrianD wrote: »

Not every landline operator supports SMS on their landline handsets

This problem is about receiving texts to a 3 mobile phone not a landline handset.

BrianD

jeckle wrote: »

The Competition Authority has advised that ComReg is the appropriate state agency to deal with the issue. If ComReg felt that it was not a telecoms issue, or was out of their remit, I can only assume that they would not have entertained the complaint to begin with, & made a suggestion as to who might be the relevant authority/regulating body to deal with the issue.

However, this would not have been an issue if you had have been forewarned by the systems manufacturer. Certainly we all presume universal coverage nowadays but can we assume that? I don't know what the obligations are for carriers to offer 100% access to others. It would be mad not to but may not actually be a regulation.

drunkmonkey wrote:

This problem is about receiving texts to a 3 mobile phone not a landline handset.

I know that. What I said was not ever operator supports SMS on their landline handsets. Perhaps from their handsets would be clearer.

jeckle

RangeR wrote:

What most of you fail to realise is simple Business Economics. Chances are, Three made a business decision NOT to interoperate with eircom landline SMS as the ratio of expenditure:revenue is just too damn high.

SMS is dying. It's no longer the cash cow it used to be. It may not totally die, but it's a shadow of it's former self. There is fook all money in this platform. Asking a company to implement hardware for this interop is like asking them to burn 10's of thousands in wasted hardware.

This is just not going to happen. Too few people want it. There would be near 0 income for it.

What hardware would Three have to invest tens of thousands in? They already have a message centre to receive SMS messages & re-route them to their customers, so I'd be interested in hearing more about what hardware or even software they would have to invest in. Did 02 & Vodafone burn tens of thousands in similar hardware?

Maybe I'm being ultra naive/ignorant here, but I would have thought that an SMS is an SMS, no matter where it originates from, & once it arrives at the Three message centre number that it would be re-routed just as an SMS from any other mobile network? The Eircom Rep has already said that all Three need to do is send a request into Eircom to update / upgrade their platform to allow Three to receive fixed line SMS. Presumably Eircom & Three also need to crunch a few numbers & this might be where there would be a lot more than zero income in it for Three. It would be interesting to see where you got the figure of tens of thousands.

According to ENN.ie , when Eircom introduced the SMS facility back in September 2002, they were the ones who made the multi-million euro investment - not the mobile network operators.


'Landline SMS has been available in other European countries such as Germany and Italy, but this is the first time that it is being offered in Ireland. Users of Eircom's system will be able to send and receive text messages to and from other SMS-enabled phones, as well as to and from mobile phones.'