rant

Johny 8

I cant understand how contractors are quoting for jobs at half the price of other contracts. Recently i priced a porch for a long term client. I quoted at 5900, another quote was 5950 and the last quote was 3100. I felt very embarrassed when the client rang me to tell me this! He genuinely thought i was ripping him off. I still can't understand how this other contractors half my price?

Firstly can anyone even explain this? How can you pay a mortgage and feed a family when you quote like this. also how do you cover business costs?

Secondly to you the homeowners, would you be happy to employ a contractor who was half the price of two other contractors??

Thanks in advance for your replies!

CJhaughey

If the other contractor is on the dole and isn't paying tax then he is effectively subsidised by the State.
Is the householder aware that this may be the case?

plasteritup

most arent bothered bout them being on the dole to be fair,priced a job recently,guy comes in 400 under,i priced it 1600,got a call saying this from client,client says he is labouring for the plasterer ,if plasterer brings in his own price goes up,i dont want a 66 year old man running around after me,i know the other plasterer is on the dole bty.

Johny 8

how do you pay liability insurance if you claim the dole and work for cash?

plasteritup

you dont

Johny 8

country is a sham! no insurance, on the dole! Really what is point in being honest, paying tax etc.. when your up against this! wouldn't happen in any other industry....

paddy147

Johny 8 wrote: »

country is a sham! no insurance, on the dole! Really what is point in being honest, paying tax etc.. when your up against this! wouldn't happen in any other industry....

Show me an honest Goverment TD???:mad:

moy83

Its getting sickening trying to price work anymore .
I have a handful of clients who are fair and know that people need a decent wage to live off , but the most of private jobs just want the cheapest cash price possible .
I priced a job awhile back for exactly three weeks . It was only down the road from me . Another plasterer got the job for about half my price ,and it too him four and a half weeks minus the days himself and the labourer took off to collect the dole :mad:

ymurtagh

Don't rob people,, the Government hates competion!!!

TPM

Its impossible to compete against the likes of this.
People dont realise the implications of work carried out by someone on the dole no insurance of any sort
No come back(warranty) on the work
No onus for the work to be carried out correctly
not to mention that they are actually paying twice to get the work done, once for the actual labour charges they pay, and again in taxes to pay the dole

I do also have to say I have come across prices from contractors that cant be done either. there is no way the work can be completed properly for the price given

cgc5483

As a potential customer can I add my point of view. I've a rennovation ongoing at the moment and some of differences in prices are crazy. From my point of view I have no problem with giving an honest wage for an honest days work but at the same time there are lots of chancers still out there. For example I'm currently looking for a plasterer to slab and plaster 2 rooms about 5*3.5 M each. Also involves a small bit of patching some wall chases etc.

The first quote I got was for 2400 labour only. Apparently for 3 guys for 6 days?
The 2nd guy quoted what I was more expecting of 900/950 for himself and a labourer and would take 4 days. He also broke down the work into what each part would take him.

I think one way that tradesmen need to help themselves is by breaking down the costs in more detail and showing the clients where the money is going. As well as explaining the fact of your invoicing the job and implications of that etc..

Johny 8

its crazy that this is happening regularly!

Johny 8

cgc5483 wrote: »

As a potential customer can I add my point of view. I've a rennovation ongoing at the moment and some of differences in prices are crazy. From my point of view I have no problem with giving an honest wage for an honest days work but at the same time there are lots of chancers still out there. For example I'm currently looking for a plasterer to slab and plaster 2 rooms about 5*3.5 M each. Also involves a small bit of patching some wall chases etc.

The first quote I got was for 2400 labour only. Apparently for 3 guys for 6 days?
The 2nd guy quoted what I was more expecting of 900/950 for himself and a labourer and would take 4 days. He also broke down the work into what each part would take him.

I think one way that tradesmen need to help themselves is by breaking down the costs in more detail and showing the clients where the money is going. As well as explaining the fact of your invoicing the job and implications of that etc..

225euro +vat per day for two men. this is realistic and fair. We need more fair homeowners like yourselves in this industry!
Fair play to you!

kieran24883

Well said lads i recently set up my own business just to get off the dole and try and make contacts to get back to work, eccsa regristration cost me 300 quid, a day course 150, and publc liability insurance 600 quid and i cant compete with people on the doll.
also just did a job for a woman, called 3 times to the house, got the materials myself, charged her 50 quid labour(ex vat) and 40 for materials, the materials actually came to 28 euro had the rest of the materials in the van, and now she wont pay me cause i am "ripping her off". i was out within an hour to her and got the shower back working within two hours as the wrong trip was on it and it had melted a part of the board. no thanks in this country anymore

JohnnieK

I run my own plumbing and heating business (just me) and I too have come up against the dole que. Especially on the boiler installations. People getting crazy low quotes and I know it wont be done right.

To to a job properly and up to current standards certain things need to be done that take both time and money. For some of the quotes I have heard I know these thing wont be done.

The funny thing is the people who hire these chancres are the very ones to bad mouth plumbers/carpenters/plasterers/electricians and so on when it comes to light that it's not done right.

I have made a vow to myself since last week when I was stumped on a job that If I hear or see of any unregistered or legitimate contractor doing work I quoted for I will report them to RGI/Revenue and or social welfare.

I for one will stick by my standards and they can hire me or not.
Pay peanuts get monkeys.

kieran24883

you are dead right john, perfect example of what you are talking about, last week an "electrician" who is on the dole cause in my opinion is the worst electrician i have ever met was telling me he wired a heating system for a fella, he never used a time clock which is just plain stupid but then he went on to tell me about a "dial" on the boiler that he "didnt bother wiring", the fool bypassed the high limit stat, dont think i need to explain to u john what happens if something goes wrong there, he asked me to do it for him, but i refusewd cause i am not allowing my insurance to cover his cowboy job!

JohnnieK

kieran24883 wrote: »

Well said lads i recently set up my own business just to get off the dole and try and make contacts to get back to work, eccsa regristration cost me 300 quid, a day course 150, and publc liability insurance 600 quid and i cant compete with people on the doll.
also just did a job for a woman, called 3 times to the house, got the materials myself, charged her 50 quid labour(ex vat) and 40 for materials, the materials actually came to 28 euro had the rest of the materials in the van, and now she wont pay me cause i am "ripping her off". i was out within an hour to her and got the shower back working within two hours as the wrong trip was on it and it had melted a part of the board. no thanks in this country any more

Some people want stuff done for nothing and will pay big money for a fancy suite of furniture and wont spend 70 on important maintenance or accuse you of robbing them when you repair there boiler at 9pm on a Saturday evening because they wont wait till Monday.

But thankfully most will pay for services but it's up to me to explain clearly what needs to be done and what can happen if it's not dome right.

Indricotherium

I all fairness from 2003 to the beginning of the downturn you couldn't get someone in to do a small job in your gaffe. Mad quotes, and lads telli g you they'd get out to you in abot six weeks.

Swings and roundabouts.

Indricotherium

Indricotherium wrote: »

I all fairness from 2003 to the beginning of the downturn you couldn't get someone in to do a small job in your gaffe. Mad quotes, and lads telli g you they'd get out to you in abot six weeks.

Swings and roundabouts.

Not really, decent tradesmen wasn't ripping off their customers in 2003 nor will they be in 2013, the cute fellas I know who had no shame than still have no shame now, not every tradesman is about the money;)

kitser

i'm in the same boat in the window game. i get some guys quoting at my cost price. i try to tell them that it something doesn't add up with their prices, and that they will get what they paid for. a lot of the time they will get no warranty, they just won't realise it till something goes wrong.

the other poster was dead right when he said that a customer will pay a small fortune on a piece of furniture but will not pay for the important stuff. crazy world

TPM

There are lots of horror stories about tradesmen ripping people off by charging too much, doing bad work, not coming back etc.
And in essence alot of these stories are true, but the genuine tradesmen who were always working for reasonable money, doing their trade properly and maintaining proper insurance and keeping up to date on training/regulations and changes in their trade seem to be the ones who are bearing the brunt of the bad press.
Because alot of the cowboys and dole subsidised "workers simply dont care. They dont care if what they have done doesnt work, isnt finished, has no warranty etc. and the genuine tradesmen are left trying to compete with prices that can not provide a quality job up to the required regulations and standards

spongeplunge

JohnnieK wrote: »

I run my own plumbing and heating business (just me) and I too have come up against the dole que. Especially on the boiler installations. People getting crazy low quotes and I know it wont be done right.

To to a job properly and up to current standards certain things need to be done that take both time and money. For some of the quotes I have heard I know these thing wont be done.

The funny thing is the people who hire these chancres are the very ones to bad mouth plumbers/carpenters/plasterers/electricians and so on when it comes to light that it's not done right.

I have made a vow to myself since last week when I was stumped on a job that If I hear or see of any unregistered or legitimate contractor doing work I quoted for I will report them to RGI/Revenue and or social welfare.

I for one will stick by my standards and they can hire me or not.
Pay peanuts get monkeys.

hi JohnnieK. I have read all your posts. As when I googled your posts appeared 5 times. I was searching for information about the back to work scheme.
I have noticed you done additional courses with fas (oil & gas) where they free, while been unemployed?
You state in a different post you got 1000 euro of a grant. Was this additional to getting your full dole for 1 year and 75% the second year? what other free insentitives was available? Did they pay for your website also?

I notice by the above post. These are the problems, you come across. It wouldn't really be that bad for the first 2 years. But after the 2, I can see the problems.

Id love if you could give myself more info. Thanks in advance.

cheif kaiser

Johny 8 wrote: »

Firstly can anyone even explain this? How can you pay a mortgage and feed a family when you quote like this. also how do you cover business costs?

Can I ask what you think is a reasonable price to pay a tradesman per day ? Are you suggesting that you should quote for a job depending on the price of your mortgage and how many kids you have to feed ? because in any other job your mortgage and your kids don't come into it, you are paid for what the job is worth!

If I come across as being a bit hacked off with tradesmen then it's probably because I am! I'm not saying you are dishonest but I do think that a fair number of tradesmen quote, not for what the job is worth but how much they can squeeze out of the person they are quoting to. I think they walk into a house and either judge whether the person is a little gullible or if they think the house is fairly fancy then the hike up the price because they think the owner has a few quid! I am not talking about 1 or 2 tradesmen, I am talking about 80% of them (In my experience) If you do give them the job, they cut corners and have absolutely no pride in their work, it's get in, do the job as fast as you can, cut as many corners as you can, grab the money and run! I am sorry to say that I have completely gone off hiring Irish tradesmen because that is my experience of them, bar a few.

spongeplunge

spongeplunge wrote: »

hi JohnnieK. I have read all your posts. As when I googled your posts appeared 5 times. I was searching for information about the back to work scheme.
I have noticed you done additional courses with fas (oil & gas) where they free, while been unemployed?
You state in a different post you got 1000 euro of a grant. Was this additional to getting your full dole for 1 year and 75% the second year? what other free insentitives was available? Did they pay for your website also?

I notice by the above post. These are the problems, you come across. It wouldn't really be that bad for the first 2 years. But after the 2, I can see the problems.

Id love if you could give myself more info. Thanks in advance.

???
What has that got to do with anything, there's a fundamental problem with unskilled unqualified tradesmen ripping off their customers and creating a unfair playing field for tradesmen trying to give good service and a perfessional job and the only thing you want to know about is how John became a professional who does what it says on the tin.

JohnnieK

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Can I ask what you think is a reasonable price to pay a tradesman per day ? Are you suggesting that you should quote for a job depending on the price of your mortgage and how many kids you have to feed ? because in any other job your mortgage and your kids don't come into it, you are paid for what the job is worth!

If I come across as being a bit hacked off with tradesmen then it's probably because I am! I'm not saying you are dishonest but I do think that a fair number of tradesmen quote, not for what the job is worth but how much they can squeeze out of the person they are quoting to. I think they walk into a house and either judge whether the person is a little gullible or if they think the house is fairly fancy then the hike up the price because they think the owner has a few quid! I am not talking about 1 or 2 tradesmen, I am talking about 80% of them (In my experience) If you do give them the job, they cut corners and have absolutely no pride in their work, it's get in, do the job as fast as you can, cut as many corners as you can, grab the money and run! I am sorry to say that I have completely gone off hiring Irish tradesmen because that is my experience of them, bar a few.

It sounds like you have had some very bad experiences, sorry to hear that.

cheif kaiser

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Can I ask what you think is a reasonable price to pay a tradesman per day ? Are you suggesting that you should quote for a job depending on the price of your mortgage and how many kids you have to feed ? because in any other job your mortgage and your kids don't come into it, you are paid for what the job is worth!

No good tradesman would disagree with you, nothing can damage confidence in a industry more than bad working practises/service or pricing, this is detested by good tradesmen.

The point that is being made is the of the pricing of work given by some tradesmen is so low that a similar tradesman who is doing everything right and above board is just unable to match the price.

You do have a good point as the trades aren't being policed and as in any work environment there will be some who will happily take advantage or those who don't know they are bad at their job:eek:

I look forward to the day things improve as it would be nice for all of us.

spongeplunge

gary71 wrote: »

???
What has that got to do with anything, there's a fundamental problem with unskilled unqualified tradesmen ripping off their customers and creating a unfair playing field for tradesmen trying to give good service and a perfessional job and the only thing you want to know about is how John became a professional who does what it says on the tin.

Maybe I should have started a new tread. I just wanted to ask John , could he advice myself of all the hand outs available, that he received. PI insurance, full dole (not taxable), websites ect.

I didn't mean anything else. I looked at Johns website available via this site . Its great to see he is doing well now, after coming off long term unemployment. I really would appreciate all the advice he can give myself , and once again well done John Mangan.

JohnnieK

spongeplunge wrote: »

Maybe I should have started a new tread. I just wanted to ask John , could he advice myself of all the hand outs available, that he received. PI insurance, full dole (not taxable), websites ect.

I didn't mean anything else. I looked at Johns website available via this site . Its great to see he is doing well now, after coming off long term unemployment. I really would appreciate all the advice he can give myself , and once again well done John Mangan.

I went on the short term back to work enterprise allowance. I was only a few month's unemployed. There is also a long term back to work enterprise allowance for people who have been more than a year.

I was allowed trade and still collect the remainder of the benefit. I paid myself very little from the company the first year because of this. I had to keep a record of the benefit payments into my account because it is tax deductible.

I received a €1000 grant and it's up to you what you spend it on. I bought my analyzer kit with it.

That is all i was entitled to at the time. The gis and gid where free through FAS but the waiting list was ridiculous so i paid my self and done it privately.
I am a fully qualified plumber working on gas and oil installations for years. The gid is not or is it supposed to be a foot in the door to a trade..

Hope this helps.

spongeplunge

spongeplunge wrote: »

Maybe I should have started a new tread. I just wanted to ask John , could he advice myself of all the hand outs available, that he received. PI insurance, full dole (not taxable), websites ect.

I didn't mean anything else. I looked at Johns website available via this site . Its great to see he is doing well now, after coming off long term unemployment. I really would appreciate all the advice he can give myself , and once again well done John Mangan.

My bad, but in fairness Johns only about 4 foot 6 with chubby cheeks and in this weather big kids keep stealing his ice cream, so it's easy to be a little over protective of Mr Mangan.

JohnnieK

gary71 wrote: »

My bad, but in fairness Johns only about 4 foot 6 with chubby cheeks and in this weather big kids keep stealing his ice cream, so it's easy to be a little over protective of Mr Mangan.

Add a foot onto that Gary :-). But they still steal my ice cream.

John Carey

Fair play. I'm of the same opinion. But you have to wonder who is worse? The chancers themselves or the people who employ them. Letting someone onto your property without any insurance is crazy. What happens if they get injured? What happens if the work they do damages
your property? What happens if what they do causes a member of the public to get injured? Saving a few quid for a cash job could be quite expensive in the long run.
Ultimately these people are adding to the current economic problems. All you can do is report them and hope others do the same.

paddy147

I actually thought this was/is a DIY FORUM and not the "business promotion and rant away" forum...

paddy147

paddy147 wrote: »

I actually thought this was/is a DIY FORUM and not the "business promotion and rant away" forum...

You're absolutely right and i'm more than happy to leave the forum.

Stoner

ok guys this has developed into something that has no place here.

Going to shut this one down.