Think you will change your mind with age?

gawker

So a study conducted by the University of Chicago has shown that people seem to grow more religious with age, although on the plus side from an atheist perspective the world is growing less religious in general.

Here's a report on it: http://www.futurity.org/society-culture/even-for-atheists-faith-in-god-rises-with-age/

I can see how it could provide comfort for people as they realize their days may be numbered. The promises of most religions (heaven, paradise earth, whatever) must be amplified big time when you get older. Do you think you will take the plunge later in your life and join a religion, or even be tempted to do so? Would the trade-off between rational thinking and personal comfort not become less troublesome in old age?

legspin

I find myself going in the opposite direction. But then, you are supposed to get more conservative and right-wing as you get older and I find the opposite of that to be true as well.

yellowfish

gawker wrote: »

So a study conducted by the University of Chicago has shown that people seem to grow more religious with age, although on the plus side from an atheist perspective the world is growing less religious in general.

Here's a report on it: http://www.futurity.org/society-culture/even-for-atheists-faith-in-god-rises-with-age/

I can see how it could provide comfort for people as they realize their days may be numbered. The promises of most religions (heaven, paradise earth, whatever) must be amplified big time when you get older. Do you think you will take the plunge later in your life and join a religion, or even be tempted to do so? Would the trade-off between rational thinking and personal comfort not become less troublesome in old age?

I think once you have stepped back and taken a rational appraisal of the subject it is impossible to set aside that critical thinking and simply take things on Faith alone.
I am always sceptical of people who claim to have been Atheist but taken up religion late, I wonder if they are simply re framing not thinking about something for many adult years as not believing, trying to make their leap of faith more credible by claiming to have approached it sceptically.

Readyhed

These surveys are essentially flawed. The only group that can tell you that their attitudes change over time are older people because they are the only ones who have been around long enough to properly answer the question!

A survey of children from 5 to 15 says that as they get older more and more of them stop believing in Santa Clause.

They stop believing because they grow up and see what a load of crap it is. Mankind is growing up - Information, technology, communication. It is hard to BS people nowadays.
It's even hard to get kids to believe in Santa Clause.

The fact is that 50 years ago religion was a much more powerful force than it is today. People believed en masse without question. That's how so many paedophile priests got away with their disgusting behaviour for so long. Does anyone really believe that no one knew it was happening?

The point is, however, that the masses enslaved by religion 50 years ago were not old people or young people - they were ALL people.
We tend to forget that it is not so long ago that your life and prosperity could be seriously harmed if you admitted to being an atheist.


I can vividly remember my parents in their 30s (40/50 years ago) kneeling together at their bedside and praying each night before they went to sleep.
Who does this nowadays?.In those days they believed in this stuff unquestioningly.

The older generation you see going to the churches now are not going because they are old - They go because, when they were young, they
were indoctrinated into believing in religion in a way that is incomprehensible to today's generation.

It is my firm belief that religion's days are numbered and, as far as I am concerned, the quicker the better. Mankind's progress has been stiffled by this crap for long enough.

Fortyniner

Will I change my mind with age?

I'm an old fart already and have been an atheist since I was 15. I'm more committed than ever.

My father in law was approached by a priest on his death bed. Told him to fornicate off.

Gbear

"Yet the surveys found one constant—belief in God is higher among the elderly, regardless of where they live."

That's hardly surprising.

I'm pretty sure the elderly are also more racist, sexist, authoritarian... etc.

Readyhed

gawker wrote: »

I can see how it could provide comfort for people as they realize their days may be numbered. The promises of most religions (heaven, paradise earth, whatever) must be amplified big time when you get older.

Actually I'm kind of getting into that age group and the idea of an eternity of anything scares me more than the concept of finality and oblivion.

I mean. Floating around, playing a harp and loving God for ETERNITY.
Give me oblivion - Please.

nothing

The interpretation of the data is way off, from looking at it. The only real way to assess the premise that increase in age relates to increase in belief is to follow people from their 20s right up to their 70s or 80s. Comparing todays youth with todays elderly does not show anything except that people born in the 40s/50s/60s are more likely to be religious than those born in the 80s/90s (for example).

Sigh. And people wonder why statistics have such a bad name.

Edit :
The report itself can be found here
http://news.uchicago.edu/sites/all/files/attachments/Belief%20About%20God%20Across%20Time%20and%20Countries.pdf

Kivaro

As we get older, we see more death (friends and family dying), so this may have an effect on some people, who thought that they were atheists.

Penn

I don't think so. I hope not anyway.

Just started watching 'Wonders of the Solar System' by Prof.Brian Cox last night (never saw them when it was on telly).

As more and more of these programmes are made...
As we learn more and more about science and the natural world...
As more and more people like Dawkins, Hitchens, Penn Jillette, Ben Goldacre, James Randi etc become popular and make these terrific arguments against religion...
As information is more freely spread throughout the world of the negative effects of religion...

... why would anyone who doesn't believe in religion change their mind? Yes, that research shows that people have become more religious with age... but did those people have what we have today?

The only thing that could make someone abandon all that is fear of death (whether your own or a loved one). I can't say that it will never happen to me... but I really hope it doesn't, and with my current viewpoint (not that I'm not afraid of dying), I'd prefer to believe that there is nothing after this life.

sbsquarepants

[QUOTE=Gbear;78280220
I'm pretty sure the elderly are also more racist, sexist, authoritarian... etc.[/QUOTE]

And older, the elderly are always older. Coincidence? I think not Gbear!:D

I think that people being religious or atheist, is more a by-product of how they think, rather than just something they do think. I tend to think rationaly and look for explanations for things, spiritual types are more likely to just accept - or at the very least accept some pretty unlikely "explanations" That doesn't seem all that likely to change as you get older. I would say the conversion from believer to atheist is a lot more likely than the other way round for that very reason. Rational thinking people question their religious beliefs or upbringing and eventually reject it in the absence of corroborating evidence.
I doubt that the opposite would happen very often. I could be proved wrong now, but it seems counter-intuitive to me.

Gregor Samsa

My mother declared her self to be an atheist in her mid 60s, after a lifetime of observant Catholicism. In hospital the week before she died, age 72, she told my brother and I that she was perfectly content to die believing that there was no god or afterlife.

Her father - a devout Catholic, and by any standard a very good and honourable man - spent his last year in daily torment at the prospect of the divine judgement he believed he was facing.

I know which one had the more comfort in their final days.

Sarky

It'll take massive psychological trauma or brain damage for me to consider the existence of a god.

Or, y'know, he could sort out all this unbelief stuff by actually providing evidence for his existence to the whole planet at the same time in an unambiguous manner. Shouldn't be too hard for someone who knocked out a universe in less than a week.

Dades

Kivaro wrote: »

As we get older, we see more death (friends and family dying), so this may have an effect on some people, who thought that they were atheists.

If you think you're an atheist - you are an atheist.

If you start believing in some deity somewhere you just stop being one, it doesn't mean you never were.

Galvasean

I think the interpretation of the data is flawed. I don't think these people in their 70s/80s are becoming more religious with age. It hazard a guess that virtually all of them were religious from the word go, such were their upbringings. My parents are in their 50s and recall how when they were in their 20s Canon law was held in higher regard than actual law and that everybody obeyed the local priest like a god (for lack of a better word).
Nowadays religion doesn't have quite so strong a grip on the populace so people are growing up less indoctrinated and less likely to hold on to religion throughout their lives.
Sure, there will always be a few Pascal's Wagers, but I don't think the majority of non-religious people would be so inclined.

Beruthiel

gawker wrote: »

So a study conducted by the University of Chicago has shown that people seem to grow more religious with age

Hogwash.
I'm no spring chicken and I become more hard line with each passing year.

Dades

There are no atheists in foxholes bingo halls?

kylith

My views on heaven have been expressed before so suffice to say 'oblivion please'.

And to make me believe in a deity, knowing what I know? That'll take some brain damage to do.

howamidifferent

Sarky wrote: »

It'll take massive psychological trauma or brain damage for me to consider the existence of a god.

Or, y'know, he could sort out all this unbelief stuff by actually providing evidence for his existence to the whole planet at the same time in an unambiguous manner. Shouldn't be too hard for someone who knocked out a universe in less than a week.

You mean God masturbates? :eek:

Gregor Samsa

howamidifferent wrote: »

You mean God masturbates? :eek:

Well, how else do you think he got Mary pregnant without her losing her virginity?

Ellis Dee

I can't see how people would become more religious with age. On the contrary, isn't life a process of lifelong learning? And, as Penn mentions, it is becoming easier and easier to acquire real knowledge about the universe, life, evolution and so many other things that were once complete mysteries to us, and which gave the vendors of myths and superstitions huge opportunities to con us.:rolleyes:

That is, of course, assuming that people retain their mental faculties. I'm sure a lot of "deathbed conversions" happen to unfortunates who are no longer completely compos mentis.;)

I was informed on 14 February (of all dates!) that I have a serious heart condition and it would appear that surgery is on the agenda later this year. I'm going to put my faith in the Helsinki University Central Hospital and the staff and surgeons there.:cool:

Roger Hassenforder

I might lose it, but I cant see myself changing it.
..


whats the question again?

Beruthiel

Dades wrote: »

There are no atheists in foxholes bingo halls?

If it ever gets to the stage where I think it's a good idea to spend an evening in a bingo hall, shoot me.

RoboClam

The movie "Touching the void" (great film, true story about a mountaineer who brakes his leg and has to descend a mountain alone) touches on this slightly. Not so much the age aspect, but that in circumstances where you are facing almost certain death, you may turn to god. Well, the mountaineer describes it like this:

I was convinced I was on my own. That no one was coming to get me. I was brought up as a devout catholic. I had long since stopped believing in god. I always wondered if things really hit the fan whether I would, under pressure, turn around and say a few Hail Mary's and say "Get me out of here". It never once occurred to me. It meant that I really don't believe and that when you die you die

That's how I hope to react on my death bed.

[Link below for the full movie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjD6Y_YMxZg

RichieC

yellowfish wrote: »

I think once you have stepped back and taken a rational appraisal of the subject it is impossible to set aside that critical thinking and simply take things on Faith alone.
I am always sceptical of people who claim to have been Atheist but taken up religion late, I wonder if they are simply re framing not thinking about something for many adult years as not believing, trying to make their leap of faith more credible by claiming to have approached it sceptically.

Yea, when I hear someone say they were atheist and now they found Jesus I just think of those snake oil self help seminar guys who start their stories living in a car. Or the Neocons in the US "**** their pants republicans" saying they were liberals mugged by reality.

It's a propaganda tool people use to be more persuasive in converting people.

seamus

I guess it's hard to imagine what would go through your head before you die. I can't see myself "turning" at that point because I would know anyway that I'm being intellectually dishonest and just hedging my bets a la Pascal's Wager.

My personal experience of talking to older people is that those who are religious seem to have the hardest time accepting their age and accepting their fate. You'll rarely hear them discuss death or talk about "when I die".
People with little faith or declared atheists, seem to have rationalised or accepted the inevitability of their death to the point that they're comfortable discussing it without getting upset.

My pet theory on this is that people remain religious because they refuse to accept death, and so talking about death is forcing them to consider that their religion may not be correct, and they feel uncomfortable. Anyone who truely believed would have no fear of death or taboos about discussing it.

battle_hardend

yellowfish wrote: »

I think once you have stepped back and taken a rational appraisal of the subject it is impossible to set aside that critical thinking and simply take things on Faith alone.
I am always sceptical of people who claim to have been Atheist but taken up religion late, I wonder if they are simply re framing not thinking about something for many adult years as not believing, trying to make their leap of faith more credible by claiming to have approached it sceptically.

i also find it really strange when i hear stories of people who were athiest and became christian , i really have to wonder were they really athiest at all , i grew up going to mass every week until i was twenty one , it took me nearly ten years to become an athiest and it was a major life event which put me on the path to questioning everything including god , for me , becoming athiest was a huge deal , thats why i am so sceptical of those who either claim to have become it so easily or dropped it so easily

joseph brand

Ellis Dee wrote: »

I was informed on 14 February (of all dates!) that I have a serious heart condition and it would appear that surgery is on the agenda later this year. I'm going to put my faith in the Helsinki University Central Hospital and the staff and surgeons there.:cool:

Hope it all goes well for you. My sister's fiancé was diagnosed last year with having a hole in his heart. He's got surgery this year too.

Just pray. Pray very hard to Joe Pesci.

Ghost Buster

Dont think so. I was hyper religious from about 12 til 17, began to decline into my 20s, had a brief fling with 'alternative' religion (Wicca etc) in my 30's and decided I was atheist in my late 30's.
BTW My Mother in law defected from The RCC aged 68!!!

Handsome Bob

Kivaro wrote: »

As we get older, we see more death (friends and family dying), so this may have an effect on some people, who thought that they were atheists.

One of the most hardline atheists I know did a 180 when his brother committed suicide. Death can have a devastating effect on a person (bereavement counselling seems to be quite popular these days).

doriansmith

RoboClam wrote: »

The movie "Touching the void" (great film, true story about a mountaineer who brakes his leg and has to descend a mountain alone) touches on this slightly. Not so much the age aspect, but that in circumstances where you are facing almost certain death, you may turn to god. Well, the mountaineer describes it like this:

I was convinced I was on my own. That no one was coming to get me. I was brought up as a devout catholic. I had long since stopped believing in god. I always wondered if things really hit the fan whether I would, under pressure, turn around and say a few Hail Mary's and say "Get me out of here". It never once occurred to me. It meant that I really don't believe and that when you die you die

That's how I hope to react on my death bed.

I came very close to dying a few months back and I had pretty much the same reaction as him. I had plenty of time to turn to God or pray while lying in the ambulance and then in hospital waiting for life-saving surgery but it didn't come close to happening. If being told I had a couple of hours to live didn't convert me then I'd say nothing ever will!

Ghost Buster

Kivaro wrote: »

As we get older, we see more death (friends and family dying), so this may have an effect on some people, who thought that they were atheists.

So mind altering events and emotions lead to religion. Yup. thats about right.

TwoShedsJackson

Handsome Bob wrote: »

One of the most hardline atheists I know did a 180 when his brother committed suicide. Death can have a devastating effect on a person (bereavement counselling seems to be quite popular these days).

Did he ever explain his reasoning behind the viewpoint change?

Handsome Bob

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Did he ever explain his reasoning behind the viewpoint change?

Wasn't close enough to the chap to ask, but it all started with his eulogy for his brother where he praised the local priest for the support he had given the family throughout the week.

I guess the priest said the right things to soften the blow of his brother committing suicide and he just got into spirituality.

fitz0

But isn't suicide a mortal sin? I thought that was an automatic exclusion from heaven. I really don't get why suicide would turn a relative to religion since Catholicism at least has always vilified the person.

Handsome Bob

fitz0 wrote: »

But isn't suicide a mortal sin? I thought that was an automatic exclusion from heaven. I really don't get why suicide would turn a relative to religion since Catholicism at least has always vilified the person.

Priests these days play a smart game, they'll keep teachings to a minimum and tell people what they want to hear. It's a rarity for example now where a priest will refuse to do a funeral for someone who has committed suicide.

When once priests dictated how a funeral mass is said, families can now request that religious references are kept to a minimum.

joseph brand

Handsome Bob wrote: »

Priests these days play a smart game, they'll keep teachings to a minimum and tell people what they want to hear. It's a rarity for example now where a priest will refuse to do a funeral for someone who has committed suicide.

When once priests dictated how a funeral mass is said, families can now request that religious references are kept to a minimum.

". . . . . how the tables have turned!"

Calibos

As a counterpoint, I know of a ******* Order brother who became an atheist and left the order after his brother commited suicide. Works both ways.

Handsome Bob

Calibos wrote: »

As a counterpoint, I know of a ******* Order brother who became an atheist and left the order after his brother commited suicide. Works both ways.

True that, bereavement can cause some to lose faith, whereas for others it can solidify faith.

Sarky

Any deaths in my extended family have just added to my suspicions that all religions are bollocks.

Jimoslimos

joseph brand wrote: »

". . . . . how the tables have turned!"

Yep, it's free-market spirituality. The RCC in competiton with the Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Scientologists, Pagans, etc for our money souls!

Beruthiel

Sarky wrote: »

Any deaths in my extended family have just added to my suspicions that all religions are bollocks.

And don't you have to bite your tongue when you hear thinks like - ah sure, s/he's gone to a better place.

seamus

fitz0 wrote: »

But isn't suicide a mortal sin? I thought that was an automatic exclusion from heaven. I really don't get why suicide would turn a relative to religion since Catholicism at least has always vilified the person.

I find that for all of people's gung-ho-ness about being catholic and believing in God, if you try to point out to them that according to Catholicism, practically everyone's going to hell anyway, they revert to the trinity; "Not be taken literally...", "free will", "mysterious ways".

Northclare

How can someone predict they will change their mind with age.
It seems to me that all we have is this moment in time to be enjoyed or endured.
The mind can have up to 70,000 random thoughts a day.....

battle_hardend

Sarky wrote: »

Any deaths in my extended family have just added to my suspicions that all religions are bollocks.

everyone dies though , i can see how certain events would strengthen someones athiesm but not death

Sarky

Everyone dies regardless of who they think created the universe. Nothing stops it. The death of someone you know leaves a hole. It usually fills up with something. Might be prayer, but it's usually the rest of your life happening. Pain fades, whether you're religious or not. I've had people die on me both before and after I gave up my faith. Felt exactly the same. Religion made me linger on the pain longer, though. I'll stick to the fond memories and not dwell on whether the dead broke enough ancient contradictory arbitrary rules to be disbarred from the VIP lounge.

seamus

battle_hardend wrote: »

everyone dies though , i can see how certain events would strengthen someones athiesm but not death

I found that standing in a church looking at a box containing an undeniably lifeless corpse while a guy prattled on about everlasting life to be one of the oddest things I'd ever seen. The futility and bizarreness of the whole thing is what struck me.
Even though I'd been to funerals when I was younger, it was only with more open eyes that I could see that this wasn't a rememberance ceremony or a celebration of life - it was a sales pitch for false hope.

Northclare

Yeah organized religion can be a load of bollox it's the same as organized atheism, both a load of bollox.

Sarky

Ah, the old "you're as bad as us, which means we're better" argument.

Northclare

Maybe your right sarky but I'm neither atheist or religious.

Sarky

"Maybe you're right but..." is another favourite.