Discipline in schools (crisis)

Flashgordon197

Recently I wrote a piece on this in the Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2012/0417/1224314811093.html


I forwarded this onto the Minister. Here is a rather disappointing response I got from his Private Secretary:

Would practising teachers please give me their opinion . Am I exaggerating? I dont think so (obviously)

Thank you for your email to the Minister for Education and Skills, Mr. Ruairi Quinn T.D. and the enclosed letter in relation to the issue of discipline in Irish schools.

It is regretted you have such a negative view of the behaviour of students in our schools. Whilst it is acknowledged that there are schools where lessons are disrupted by poor student behaviour, the evidence is that the problem is not as widespread as you believe.

The Inspectorate takes very seriously its responsibility to provide quality assurance within the education system and, consequently, inspectors spend a significant amount of time in classrooms. You suggest that inspectors do not see the reality of school life and that students put on performances while the inspector is present. In developing their inspection frameworks, the Inspectorate has addressed this risk. At various stages during an inspection, members of the school community, including teachers, students and parents have opportunities to interact with the evaluation team to discuss their work, including the challenges they face. The recent introduction of incidental inspections in post-primary schools also addresses this concern. Because these are unannounced inspections, an incidental inspection provides a further authentic quality assurance process.

Another very important measure to ensure that the independent and anonymous views of parents and students are heard is the use of questionnaires in whole-school evaluations. A number of the questions in these surveys relate directly to discipline in the school. An analysis of these surveys shows a very high level of awareness of schools’ behaviour policies. Parents and students are also extremely positive about the atmosphere in their school and the vast majority believe that discipline is good in their school. From September 2012, all teachers in post-primary schools where there is a whole-school evaluation will also be surveyed anonymously and this will provide further evidence in relation to discipline in schools.

Your comments are noted about poor teachers and your concern that current inspection processes do not identify them. Please note that in most inspections, the focus of evaluation is on the work of a subject department or school as a whole and not on the work of individual teachers. However, procedures are in place under Section 24 of the Education Act (1998) to facilitate schools in dealing with issues relating to professional competence and a stage in this process requires the school to seek and independent view of the teacher’s work from the Inspectorate. Schools have availed of this process and the Inspectorate has undertaken the associated inspections of teachers’ work.

I hope this information is of assistance to you.

Yours sincerely


Ronnie Ryan
Private Secretary

spurious

I don't think the Department have any idea what really goes on in many schools. Dippers are generally given easy well-behaved classes and for inspections, some of the loo-lahs are suddenly found an 'urgent message' to do for a teacher.

It's not widespread, but there are out of control teenagers who are assessed as 'normal' and not needing any interventions who are causing havoc in some classes in some schools.

I'm not talking about children with special needs. I'm talking about the ones who needed a size 10 up the a**e the first time they defied a parent, whose parents are almost afraid of upsetting the little darling by imposing any discipline. These children rule the roost in their own homes and go ballistic at the first sign of anyone not letting them have their own way in school. Their parents are so demoralised by them at this stage after giving in so often that they take the side of the little darling no matter what they have done. God forbid he/she would be upset.

I feel so sorry for the normal, standard, relatively well-behaved child who comes in every day, doesn't feel the need to be disrespectful to their classmates or teachers, doesn't have to use foul language and just gets on with their work as best they can. The child who sits there while minute after minute after hour after hour of their learning time is taken up with dealing with the 'angel' who cannot behave.

One in a class is bad enough, but with the overcrowding now it's often more than four.

Of course it's probably the teacher's fault though, not giving the poor bub appropriately interesting work (or something). Let's not upset the poor love by actually expecting a certain amount of work from them.

2011abc

Yeah its rough out there and the increasingly common scenario is that unsupportive principal / DP will readily ' not re-employ ' teachers who are 'percieved' (its all about perceptions these days dontcha know...how the kids percieve ya and what they tell their gullible parents who obviously arent in the classroom ).So the obvious Catch 22 is that the terrified teacher has to try clean up their own mess (or should that be their students' parents mess?)Getting worse all the time , although in fairness there have always been discipline problems in schools.Potential very scarey future .

rainbowtrout

Department doesn't have a clue what's going on in schools, or perhaps they do know and just don't want to acknowledge it because then they might have to do something about it.

In some instances part time teachers like 2011abc said are in a position where they may not be re-employed if they are perceived to have a discipline issue, so in order to hang onto their job will suffer in silence, or do not receive support from management.

We had some Croke Park hours this week and we had a talk on what was basically managing challenging behaviour... stuff we have heard a million times before.

What I thought was hilarious was the woman giving the talk started to list 'low level behaviours' and was categorising them as things that are irritating but not a major disruption to class. Now the woman does a lot of good work with some of the students in our school with behavioural problems, but was classifying walking around the room without permission and shouting at other students/teacher/out of turn as low level. I'd love to know what classrooms she spends time in where a teacher can dismiss either of these as a minor distraction in the same bracket as a student rummaging in a school bag or tapping a pen on the desk.

Poor behaviour is not tolerated in the workplace, I don't see why we should have to tolerate it in school. Numerous times I've seen students in my school go home with some form of punishment work or get a detention for bad behaviour etc and get a note in their homework journal informing the parent of such, only for the note to come back the following day saying 'I don't agree with Johnny being punished/Johnny doesn't want to do the punishment and I agree with him so he's not going to do it' What hope do we have if this is the parent's attitude, and more to the point what hope do we have if management don't clamp down on it and say to the parents 'these are the terms and conditions you signed up to when you sent your child here, fall in line or find another school'.

lestat21

They havent a clue... Incidental inspections do nothing to highlight behaviour problems in the class it just puts the teachers day to day lesson planning under the microscope (which aint a bad thing)

I havent had one yet but from speaking to teachers, students are often scared quiet or encouraged to interact with the material of the lesson when there is an observer in the classroom.

Really its up to the management to recognise there is a problem and develop a logical progression of strategies that can be employed by staff to combat the problem... In one school I worked in the management discouraged me from using the discipline code in my class and I wouldnt apply to the school again. You need a supportive and active management in schools.

rainbowtrout

lestat21 wrote: »

They havent a clue... Incidental inspections do nothing to highlight behaviour problems in the class it just puts the teachers day to day lesson planning under the microscope (which aint a bad thing)

I havent had one yet but from speaking to teachers, students are often scared quiet or encouraged to interact with the material of the lesson when there is an observer in the classroom.

Really its up to the management to recognise there is a problem and develop a logical progression of strategies that can be employed by staff to combat the problem... In one school I worked in the management discouraged me from using the discipline code in my class and I wouldnt apply to the school again. You need a supportive and active management in schools.

:eek: I thought I'd heard it all!!!!

bdoo

Can we see the day when a BOM / VEC / DES is in the High Court as a result of a child nog getting the education to which they were entitled due to the disruption in school?

Could a school be negligent in allowing disruption to continue and liable in some way?

Might be needed to get the powers that be to sit up and take notice!

I am in a good school with good procedures and good management but I know plenty who aren't. Surely a board or VEC somewhere needs to be taken to task for the above and for a failure to ensure the health safety and wellbeing of employees who are literally being driven demented by students?

carolzoo

The anonymous teacher surveys in relation to discipline etc need to be online surveys that teachers fill in as otherwise teachers will be afraid management might see the responses and their handwriting at the post evaluation meeting. Unless they are online or typed teachers will err on the cautious side. Managment are very powerful. Teachers are afraid for their jobs and hence will not speak out about managements practices for fear of losing their job or their hours being reduced. Even full timers such as myself do not want to be under the wrath of a principal for fear we will get a "horrible" timetable the following year i.e. all the disruptive classes etc.

Management have a huge role to play in discipline. Of course teachers play an important role but too often management leave it up to the individual teachers and do not want the extra work or hassle involved in dealing with discipline issues. Some teachers ignore the problems and do not report to year heads/management for want of keeping their positions etc. This leads to inconsistencies in schools in relation to discipline procedures.

Also pupils are streamed in certain subjects. There should be a policy in schools of rotating these streamed classes among teachers. It is unfair that some teachers keep the top stream all of the time whilst other teachers are left with the disruptive weaker stream year after year with little support from management. This leads to burnout.

I am speaking about issues in the classroom where the individual teacher has taken all relevant steps in relation to the code of discipline and common sense - after this teachers need back up from management - however unfortunately this is not happening in a lot of schools due to reasons outlined above. Students realise this and thrive on it.


Management have a huge role to play in relation to discipline in schools and "active?" policies on this are not inspected. It is all on paper but are procedures actually carried out? Too often management choose to ignore problems as it involves extra work for them. If they put in this extra work and worked hard at it for a year or two students would realise that there are consequences to their actions in the classroom and proper teaching and learning could take place in the classrom. It is management who need to be tackled in a lot of schools not the individual teachers.

carolzoo

And I agree in relation to one of the above postings. Students are often warned by principals to be on their best behaviour when inspectors are around. It is very difficult for inspectors to get a true picture of the culture of a school in a few hours.

byhookorbycrook

I am in primary and we don't see the same issues, thankfully. I agree that one child can make all the difference and that we need a greater degree of support, both from the parent/s and the DES.

GarIT

I think schools are much worse than most people think. We are six weeks from the leaving and its very rare to see even one class go by without a lot of disruptions. I think mixed classes are the biggest problem. In English we are divided by JC results and there is rarely any trouble in the B or higher class but the lower classes are terrible. In Irish we are all mixed and from what I hear there is a lot of trouble in every class. The troublemakers should be separated from the people in the school that want to do good and stop holding the good students back. If they suffer because they want to cause trouble that is their own problem.

I also think there are big problems with the school enforcing its rules. They have a three strike rule on smoking, 1st time is 1 day suspension 2nd time is 3 day suspension 3rd time is expulsion, Some people have been caught 10+ times without anything other than a short suspension being done but if your late twice in a week even with doctors notes explaining why you get a detention. My school definitely picks on the students that will take the punishments and lets the ones that will fight it off.

carolzoo

Also a portion of every staff meeeting should discuss discipline issues. Each year group should be gone through by management or the year head. Issues/complaints and follow up procedures should be openly discussed. Staff should feel free to discuss issues and not feel intimidated not to.

This is not just in relation to major disruption in classes. Low level disruption such as constant talking in class after being corrected needs to be tackled. Too often students see no consequences and will say "sure nothing is going to happen" if they are reported etc. Too often they are right!

No back up from management and no consequences for bad behaviour/low level disruption in class is rampant in schools.

Too often management shirk their responsibilities in relation to tackling both serious and low level discipline issues.

They are being paid high salaries to manage discipline in schools. Lets see them earn them.

Part of their job description I understand is to provide an environment where teaching and learning can take place in the classroom.

doc_17

Bit separating students and putting all the disruptive students in one class (or school for that matter) is not ideal either. The social and economic cost of that problem is much greater down the line than nit investing in proper solutions when these choldren are in their formative years.

carolzoo

True and I agree.. The theory behing non steaming is great but at the same time in practical terms it is extremely difficult to teach a higher, ordinary and sometimes a foundation syllabus at the same time and to attend to individual education plans of sen students in a class in class periods ranging from 30, 35 and 40 minute blocks, with 30 students or more! in a class. In order for mixed ability to take place a much lower pupil teacher ratio is imperative. Even then with syllabus demands it is extremely difficult to teach two seperate syllabi concurrently.

bdoo

carolzoo wrote: »

Also a portion of every staff meeeting should discuss discipline issues. Each year group should be gone through by management or the year head. Issues/complaints and follow up procedures should be openly discussed. Staff should feel free to discuss issues and not feel intimidated not to.

This is not just in relation to major disruption in classes. Low level disruption such as constant talking in class after being corrected needs to be tackled. Too often students see no consequences and will say "sure nothing is going to happen" if they are reported etc. Too often they are right!

No back up from management and no consequences for bad behaviour/low level disruption in class is rampant in schools.

Too often management shirk their responsibilities in relation to tackling both serious and low level discipline issues.

They are being paid high salaries to manage discipline in schools. Lets see them earn them.

Part of their job description I understand is to provide an environment where teaching and learning can take place in the classroom.

are you seriously suggesting that management should go into your class and tell the kids to stop talking? how about some responsibility?

some teachers think that discipline is only the year heads' job and that's part if the problem imo.

if they have to deal with little issues like that all the time their effectiveness is lost, discipline begins in the classroom.

As for having time at every staff meeting so that fifty people can say that student x is a pup... waste of time. Maybe if time was spent sharing ideas on how to deal with these students it may be time well spent.

carolzoo

Of course not! If you read my previous posts you would see that I mentioned management should act after class teachers have taken all reasonable steps and used their common sense. Too often students ignore teachers and continue on talking or stop and then are talking the next minute. This can happen a lot even with fairly good students.

If teachers fill out the usual complaint card proceedures and follow the channels often there is nothing but a verbal warning given to the student by management and the student knows this! This is not proper back up.

Fair enough in relation to staff meetings. An inservice on strategies to deal with discipline problems might be good but consistency of approach plus back up proceedures from management is imperative. Also at a staff meeting suggestions/discussion in relation to whole school discipline, how management should help should be discussed - Are the procedures in place working etc, etc.

bdoo

carolzoo wrote: »

Of course not! If you read my previous posts you would see that I mentioned management should act after class teachers have taken all reasonable steps and used their common sense. Too often students ignore teachers and continue on talking or stop and then are talking the next minute. This can happen a lot even with fairly good students.

If teachers fill out the usual complaint card proceedures and follow the channels often there is nothing but a verbal warning given to the student by management and the student knows this! This is not proper back up.

what should they do?

Flashgordon197

I want to Thank You all for the responses. Keep them coming in. Please. I deeply appreciate it. Might forward the link back to the guy in the Department.

carolzoo

Something which will deter the student from carrying out that behaviour in class again.

I do not know. A formal letter read out to the student and sent home plus kept on students file, detention, discussion with the student why this behaviour taken place and written note from student giving their word they will co operate in class etc etc

student privileges taken away, parents called in etc etc. Nipped in the bud.

I honestly do not know because nothing happens in our school in relation to low level disruption. I would love ideas from other schools.

Something which will make students realise there are consequences for mis behaving/disrupting teaching and learning which is taking place in classrooms.

I certaintly realise teachers have a huge role to play too etc etc (I know not to tackle students and get their backs up in class etc etc to speak to them individually etc, I have heard all the theory and follow it as best I can) but teachers need back up from management also.

rainbowtrout

carolzoo wrote: »

Also a portion of every staff meeeting should discuss discipline issues. Each year group should be gone through by management or the year head. Issues/complaints and follow up procedures should be openly discussed. Staff should feel free to discuss issues and not feel intimidated not to.

This is not just in relation to major disruption in classes. Low level disruption such as constant talking in class after being corrected needs to be tackled. Too often students see no consequences and will say "sure nothing is going to happen" if they are reported etc. Too often they are right!

No back up from management and no consequences for bad behaviour/low level disruption in class is rampant in schools.

Too often management shirk their responsibilities in relation to tackling both serious and low level discipline issues.

They are being paid high salaries to manage discipline in schools. Lets see them earn them.

Part of their job description I understand is to provide an environment where teaching and learning can take place in the classroom.

I can't agree with you on this. You have to take some responsibility for the discipline of your classroom and should be able to deal with low level disruption such as talking. Management should not have to spend any time on this type of disruption.

You shouldn't have to report students for that type of behaviour, you should be able to provide a suitable punishment proving that there are consequences, if a student does not respond to you asking them not to talk etc. If you have followed through on this (perhaps a detention or something) and there is still no change, then maybe take it to the next step in the disciplinary procedure in your school.

You mentioned last week that you had disciplinary issues in your classroom and were finding it tough going, but I'm wondering what exactly do you see as your disciplinary responsibilities, because realistically you should be dealing with the low level stuff, before going anywhere up the chain of command. Management should not be sent for, or have to deal with a student who is talking in class.

carolzoo wrote: »

Of course not! If you read my previous posts you would see that I mentioned management should act after class teachers have taken all reasonable steps and used their common sense. Too often students ignore teachers and continue on talking or stop and then are talking the next minute. This can happen a lot even with fairly good students.

If teachers fill out the usual complaint card proceedures and follow the channels often there is nothing but a verbal warning given to the student by management and the student knows this! This is not proper back up.

Fair enough in relation to staff meetings. An inservice on strategies to deal with discipline problems might be good but consistency of approach plus back up proceedures from management is imperative. Also at a staff meeting suggestions/discussion in relation to whole school discipline, how management should help should be discussed - Are the procedures in place working etc, etc.

Have you tried providing a disciplinary sanction to your talkative students?

Staff meetings should not be given over to talking about every student who passes a comment in class. Nothing would ever get discussed or agreed upon if you were to discuss every out of turn conversation/comment that took place in a school even over the course of a week.

carolzoo wrote: »

Something which will deter the student from carrying out that behaviour in class again.

I do not know. A formal letter read out to the student and sent home plus kept on students file, detention, discussion with the student why this behaviour taken place and written note from student giving their word they will co operate in class etc etc

student privileges taken away, parents called in etc etc. Nipped in the bud.

I honestly do not know because nothing happens in our school in relation to low level disruption. I would love ideas from other schools.

Something which will make students realise there are consequences for mis behaving/disrupting teaching and learning which is taking place in classrooms.

I certaintly realise teachers have a huge role to play too etc etc (I know not to tackle students and get their backs up in class etc etc to speak to them individually etc, I have heard all the theory and follow it as best I can) but teachers need back up from management also.

Do you do any of those things?

In my classroom, I would do some of the following: student gets verbal warning if they are talking, it may have to be repeated. If they persist, I'll write a note in their journal, which has to be signed by a parent, if I'm getting nowhere with that because the student doesn't get it signed, I might give them a detention or ring the parent myself.

You could do all of these things and nip it in the bud. Obviously if you have taken some or all of these measures and it's not working then maybe it's time to move it up a level, but if you've already been in contact with the parent (and they are cooperative) you may have solved the problem.

Another teacher I work with sent letters home to parents informing them of how their child was not working in class at the moment and what effect that would have on their Leaving Cert result. Complete turnaround from said students once letters went out.

rainbowtrout

Flashgordon197 wrote: »

I want to Thank You all for the responses. Keep them coming in. Please. I deeply appreciate it. Might forward the link back to the guy in the Department.

One of the big problems is that the rights of the individual (Education Welfare Act) seem to have superceded the rights of the group - to learn in this case, so if you do have a class of 24 and a student kicks off in the middle of it, you have no way of removing the student from class as you have a duty of care to them and you have to waste time disciplining them while the other 23 have their time wasted. Surely the rights of the other 23 collectively should supercede the rights of one who is a persistent disruption?

Also many student who have learning disabilities and/or behavioural problems which lead to them causing a disruption in class are being turned down left, right and centre for help in the form of SNAs, resource hours etc. There are students who would benefit immensley from this kind of help and aren't getting it and the result is often misbehaviour in class. The other type of student who is just misbehaving because they know their parents will back them up to the hilt are a completely different kettle of fish and realistically schools should be able to do more in terms of disciplinary sanctions.

Parents and students know that expulsion while it exists is not a reality, is hardly ever carried out and if a child is expelled, more often than not they will appeal and the school is forced to readmit them. It makes a mockery of school policies country wide that schools realistically cannot expel students even in extreme circumstances as more than likely they'll end up having to take the student back again. What incentive is there for those students to behave if there is no ultimate sanction?

Students are supposed to stay in full time education until they are 16. It would be interesting to see how students would behave in school if admittance to fifth year was not automatic and schools could opt not to readmit a persistent trouble maker after the junior cert.

carolzoo

Thanks Rainbowtrout for your suggestions.

In relation to the staff meetings, yes, I agree with your point and I had addressed this when a previous poster pointed out the same - I responded and said perhaps then at staff meetings we could look at how and if our discipline proceedures are working etc

I am having problems with two particular class groups - second years and third years, third years - persistant talking. I have tried detention but it is not working. I have not rang or written to parents. I don't know if it's in our school policy to do this or if we can do this. It is certaintly something I will check next week in school. That is a great idea. Hopefully they will be supportive.

byhookorbycrook

Carolzoo, I sympathise with you plight, but am taken aback somewhat by you saying that you are unaware of the sanctions in your school disciplinary code.If we are to be able to tackle this in schools, each teacher needs to be fully au fait with the code and follow it to the letter of the law.

carolzoo

Hi,

I said that I didn't know if we (teachers) were allowed to write to or ring parents in relation to such issues because I know that teachers ringing/writing offical letters to parents directly isn't in our code of discipline policy. (that's why I wanted to check next week with the school that doing so would be ok!!!)

GarIT

Our school has a rule book that every student, parent and teacher must sign. None of the teachers ever enforce it. Using a phone in the school building or grounds between 9 and 4 is a 1 day suspension and having a phone in class is an automatic 3 day suspension. 9 out of 10 times if a phone rings during class its just given back at the end. Should teachers start being punished for not following the code of behaviour?

seavill

carolzoo wrote: »

Hi,

I said that I didn't know if we (teachers) were allowed to write to or ring parents in relation to such issues because I know that teachers ringing/writing offical letters to parents directly isn't in our code of discipline policy. (that's why I wanted to check next week with the school that doing so would be ok!!!)

I would have to agree with byhookorbycrook. I do not mean to sound like I am slagging you off or anything, and I had followed with interest your previous threads and sympathised with you, however after reading the above I do feel that you have let yourself down here in this instance.
In my current school it was made very clear on my first day that it is encouraged that teachers themselves make contact with home if needs be.
In my previous school it was not made clear at all however within two or three weeks I felt it was needed and asked another teacher. The rule was you could ring but you had to check with the year head in case other calls had already been made that day or there was issues that we needed to be made aware of. However, there was problems in my class and I had to take the initiative in relation to finding out how to solve these issues.

This school had a huge amount of troublesome students so "low" level disruption was not really on the radar however as far as I was concerned unless I took action the low level builds up very quickly.

A problem I see in any school that I have worked in even for a days subbing is the issue of teachers walking by and ignoring things, or giving an instruction, say on supervision, it being ignored by the student, and the teacher just thinking why bother.
As far as I'm concerned this is why there is such problems. Yes it is effort to enforce things and sometimes you can end up bringing grief on yourself by following through but I feel these teachers who allow students to ignore them have no right to complain when they feel things are going down the pan. (carolzoo this was not aimed at you this was a thing I had an issue with in my previous school)

One thing I saw in action in a previous school which I know a lot of teachers were not in favour of was rewarding good behaviour of the most troublesome students. In fairness I do see the argument why should the bold ones get rewarded for something that a "normal" child does daily and gets no reward, however after seeing it in action I definately saw the benefits.
A friend of mine works in a school where the whole of 1st 2nd and 3rd year work towards merit trips. if they keep their discipline count below a certain level they get rewarded. This is on a whole school level.
The good ones get their reward and the bold ones get to stay in school. It can work but needs to be strictly enforced.

With a troublesome class in particular, a separate system can work where each teacher monitors and reports on simple things like for example staying in their seat, not using language during class etc. these things add up to points towards a reward. Again those not meeting the target don't get the reward. If everyone buys into it and gets on board it can work to a cetain extent but it needs to be consistent across every teacher in every class and properly done.

Some will argue that it is a waste of resources and effort, however do you just give up on these students in 1st year and try get rid of them? Do you try to normalise good behaviour and attempt little steps at a time and hope that it makes a difference overall. For a good class not cursing at a teacher is a normal frame of mind, for the troublesome kids it is normal to curse, in all fairness 99% of the time it is not the student's fault they are like this, it is what they are used to and see on a daily basis for more hours that you will ever see them for, this behaviour has been learned, so unless someone attempts to normalise good behaviour they will never succeed.

spurious

What I find really soul-destroying is a student who disrupts so much that you cannot teach the class, you get a colleague to escort him or her out and they are back up in your class doing exactly the same after ten minutes. Sent back by the 'higher-ups'. I mean really? I'm not going to be sending them out for no pen or no copy.

I know colleagues in other schools who had to teach students who had physically assaulted them (in one case lunged at with a knife) the afternoon after they did so.

Sometimes you are in the school at the end of the line and what do we do then?

rainbowtrout

spurious wrote: »

What I find really soul-destroying is a student who disrupts so much that you cannot teach the class, you get a colleague to escort him or her out and they are back up in your class doing exactly the same after ten minutes. Sent back by the 'higher-ups'. I mean really? I'm not going to be sending them out for no pen or no copy.

I know colleagues in other schools who had to teach students who had physically assaulted them (in one case lunged at with a knife) the afternoon after they did so.

Sometimes you are in the school at the end of the line and what do we do then?

Yes, I've seen this happen plenty of times, teachers don't kick students out of class for no reason, they know they can't kick them out anyway, so to get a student removed during a class they must be causing a fairly serious disruption. It's disheartening for the teacher to see the student land back five minutes later with a smirk on their faces which basically says 'I'm back, nothing happened to me and there's nothing you can do about it, so I'm going to behave in whatever way I want'

carolzoo

Hi all,

Thanks for your replies and support.

Perhaps I was being too honest and open in saying I didnt know whether teachers could contact parents officially by phone or write an official letter regarding their behaviour in class. It isn't in our code of discipline and far as I know in our school it is not the done thing. That is why I was going to ask next week if it would be a possibility - I am willing to try anything but at the same time after some thought on this now please see my views below...

Personally I don't think it is effective a variety of teachers all individually working alone contacting parents. A collaberative approach would be much more effective. After teachers follow the code of discipline, follow the appropriate steps it should be up to year heads/deputy or principal to take it further. This is what they are being paid for. Only major disruption issues are looked at in our school. Whilst they will result in suspension students love saying they have been suspended - it is seen as cool and having a day off by many. Nothing else happens bar another suspension. There is no deterrant.

Management let other things go - it would be work for them to do anything about things. Students know they have the upper hand then. That is the absolute truth and I have seen that "smirk" rainbowtrout mentioned all to many times. They know they get away with talking in other classes and have done so in previous years, they pretty much know that bar detentions, notes in journals etc nothing else will happen. One or two of them have told me as much. Other teachers in the school have said the same. In addition students are not bothered too much about notes in their journals or their parents seeing them because parents get the students version of events and side with them. I have experienced this at parent teacher meetings.

Might I add that I am considered a "good" teacher by students and parents. My classes generally get good results taking into account their abilities etc. It is disheartening when I put in so much preparation and work into my classes to get this response from some students might I add. It's a lack of basic manners and respect.

I am already ran off my feet following the code of discipline - doing detentions, writing notes in their journals and keeping my own record of the same, preparing classes - preparing classes for students with special needs, ordinary level and higherl level all in the one class, marking copies etc etc. I honestly do not know where individual teachers can find time to go contacting parents individually, the terms are so busy and physically demanding. I am phsyically exhausted after school. After some rest I then go marking copies and preparing lessons. Preparation is continuous, updating resources etc.

A collaberative approach would be much more effective with management taking overall responsibility to take things further once individual teachers have exhausted all other channels. This is what they are being paid for in my opinion.

rainbowtrout

carolzoo wrote: »

Hi all,

Thanks for your replies and support.

Perhaps I was being too honest and open in saying I didnt know whether teachers could contact parents officially by phone or write an official letter regarding their behaviour in class. It isn't in our code of discipline and far as I know in our school it is not the done thing. That is why I was going to ask next week if it would be a possibility - I am willing to try anything but at the same time after some thought on this now please see my views below...

Personally I don't think it is effective a variety of teachers all individually working alone contacting parents. A collaberative approach would be much more effective. After teachers follow the code of discipline, follow the appropriate steps it should be up to year heads/deputy or principal to take it further. This is what they are being paid for. Only major disruption issues are looked at in our school. Whilst they will result in suspension students love saying they have been suspended - it is seen as cool and having a day off by many. Management let other things go - it would be work to them to do anything about it. Students know they have the upper hand then. That is the absolute truth and I have seen that "smirk" rainbowtrout mentioned all to many times. They know they get away with talking in other classes and have done so in previous years, they pretty much know that bar detentions, notes in journals etc nothing else will happen. One or two of them have told me as much. Other teachers in the school have said the same. In addition students are not bothered too much about notes in their journals or their parents seeing them because parents get the students version of events and side with them. I have experienced this at parent teacher meetings.

I am already ran off my feet following the code of discipline - doing detentions, writing notes in their journals and keeping my own record of the same, preparing classes - preparing classes for students with special needs, ordinary level and higherl level all in the one class, marking copies etc etc. I honestly do not know where individual teachers can find time to go contacting parents individually, the terms are so busy and physically demanding.

A collaberative approach would be much more effective with management taking overall responsibility to take things further once individual teachers have exhausted all other channels. This is what they are being paid for in my opinion.

Carolzoo, of course it's not effective if 5 different teachers are contacting the one parent about their child's behaviour, but if it's come to that then the behaviour is probably bad enough to warrant sanctions by the year head etc.

But if this is indeed low level stuff, is it happening in every classroom. What you really need to look at is if your students are misbehaving in all classes or just your classes. If they are misbehaving in all classes (or a large number of them) then perhaps disciplinary measures need to be looked at on a school wide basis and it's something that you should put on the agenda for the next staff meeting, and have a list ready of things you want to discuss . If it is only happening for the most part in your class then you will have to try and implement some new disciplinary techniques in your classroom or see if you can get some support from other staff members to help you solve the problem. You mentioned that your good students are disruptive, really that shouldn't be happening, we all get a few poorly behaved students that will disrupt regardless of who they are in front of but generally well behaved students don't do that unless they feel they can get away with it.

If management structures are as bad as you say, and I can believe that they are, then unfortunately it seems like you are fighting an uphill battle so while you remain in that school you will have to look at putting your own disciplinary procedures in place. I don't know what that is but maybe discuss it with a few like minded teachers and see what you come up with so that students know that whatever they get away with in other classrooms does not happen in yours.

carolzoo

It is happening in a lot of classes. Teachers have said so.

Yes, it happens with good students in my class too - not in my honours physics class but mainly in the classes where there are 30 or 31 students in them. I have a 5th year ordinary level maths class - half did higher to junior cert and half did ordinary to junior cert. Here the "good" students tend to talk because they say they know it all from junior cert. I have tried letting them work ahead but they end up still talking and completing the work at home.

My second years and third years are a different kettle of fish. I have a mix of some very disruptive students who will shout out, interrupt, not participate, talk etc etc plus do not complete homework, forget their journal for class, arrive without their book and copy frequently. Very frustrating. They have no fear of anything happening them bar an occasional suspension and then are back again the exact same way. Very difficult to mark copies of these students when no copies in class or homework done. It's extremely timeconsuming noting this in my teachers record too but I have to so I can explain why there isn't any work done in their copies to a future inspector.

This makes the teaching and learning very difficult.


The problem in our school is that many teachers in our school would not be bothered by the above but would teach around it in order not to be bothering management for reasons outlined in my earlier posts.

bdoo

carolzoo wrote: »

It is happening in a lot of classes. Teachers have said so.

Yes, it happens with good students in my class too - not in my honours physics class but mainly in the classes where there are 30 or 31 students in them. I have a 5th year ordinary level maths class - half did higher to junior cert and half did ordinary to junior cert. Here the "good" students tend to talk because they say they know it all from junior cert. I have tried letting them work ahead but they end up still talking and completing the work at home.

My second years and third years are a different kettle of fish. I have a mix of some very disruptive students who will shout out, interrupt, not participate, talk etc etc. They have no fear of anything happening them bar an occasional suspension and they are back again the exact same way.
This makes the teaching and learning very difficult.


The problem in our school is that many teachers in our school would not be bothered by the above but would teach around it in order not to be bothering management for reasons outlined in my earlier posts.

I understand your plight carolzoo. It strikes me that your colleagues may be part of the problem here too.

If, for example, Johnny is allowed to behave as he sees fit irish , french, geography and art why would he feel the need to behave in your maths class?

I said before that discipline begins in the classroom, every classroom. There has to be progression of course where students are referred after you have exhausted all of your own strategies.

in my school some teachers team up and do detentions twice a week for homework and behaviour, they only supervise it every second or third time so it eases the burden and it is taken seriously by kids.

I do a lot of sports in school and am very happy to leave a bold kid at home when we go away if they are constantly disruptive and teachers are exasperated. however, I have often brought a kid to a match in spite of behaviour when a lazy teacher doesnt bother their arse cos they think ill do their job for them.

rainbowtrout

carolzoo wrote: »

It is happening in a lot of classes. Teachers have said so.

Yes, it happens with good students in my class too - not in my honours physics class but mainly in the classes where there are 30 or 31 students in them. I have a 5th year ordinary level maths class - half did higher to junior cert and half did ordinary to junior cert. Here the "good" students tend to talk because they say they know it all from junior cert. I have tried letting them work ahead but they end up still talking and completing the work at home.

My second years and third years are a different kettle of fish. I have a mix of some very disruptive students who will shout out, interrupt, not participate, talk etc etc plus do not complete homework, forget their journal for class, arrive without their book and copy frequently. Very frustrating. They have no fear of anything happening them bar an occasional suspension and then are back again the exact same way. Very difficult to mark copies of these students when no copies in class or homework done. It's extremely timeconsuming noting this in my teachers record too but I have to so I can explain why there isn't any work done in their copies to a future inspector.

This makes the teaching and learning very difficult.


The problem in our school is that many teachers in our school would not be bothered by the above but would teach around it in order not to be bothering management for reasons outlined in my earlier posts.

This does give a far clearer picture of your school as a whole. It is difficult to teach under those conditions. Bdoo does have a good suggestion in getting a small group of teachers together and implementing your own strategy, particularly if there are widespread problems.

It may be hard to implement this late in the year but could be something to plan for next September.

I have a few second years like the ones you describe, copies missing etc. It might be extra work on you but if you have worksheets for some classes they can have no excuse not to do the work if it's put in front of them. Collect them at the end of the class and put them in a folder, if you do end up in the situation where there is an inspection, you have material to show your students are working.

Something else I tried a couple of months back and it worked quite well, but I wouldn't over use it in class was multiple choice tests. We have a data projector in every classroom. I put together a powerpoint of 20 slides each with a question and four possible answers. There are websites where you can generate your own bubble sheets. I explained that all they had to do was mark A, B, C, D as their answer. It's quite funny to see students think they are getting one over on you when they only have to mark a letter and you have given them the answers. They never do as well as they think they will. Also because you are controlling the slides the test goes at your pace, and prevents students from just ticking a load of random boxes and sprawling across the desk for the rest of class. It's also good for the weaker student who doesn't like writing and it gives them a chance to attempt every question, the same as the brightest student in the class. It also allows you to ask a variety of questions, ones with answers which are a phrase or word, a diagram where they have to choose the correct word or label, a picture where they have to identify what they are looking at. My weaker students love them because they can achieve a good grade and they don't feel like they are doing a test although that is what it is in reality.

carolzoo

Thanks rainbowtrout for those suggestions, very helpful

byhookorbycrook

I think the school needs to have a whole-staff approach. It's very hard if some are not implementing the rules.
I was lucky enough to hear Bill Rogers (of "cracking the hard class" fame speak.)He was a big advocate of tactical ignoring and also not getting sucked into the "But Mr. A always lets us"thing. "Maybe, he does, maybe he doesn't but in my class the rules are .."

rainbowtrout

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I think the school needs to have a whole-staff approach. It's very hard if some are not implementing the rules.
I was lucky enough to hear Bill Rogers (of "cracking the hard class" fame speak.)He was a big advocate of tactical ignoring and also not getting sucked into the "But Mr. A always lets us"thing. "Maybe, he does, maybe he doesn't but in my class the rules are .."

We were shown that video (again) during our Croke Park hours this week!

bdoo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I think the school needs to have a whole-staff approach. It's very hard if some are not implementing the rules.
I was lucky enough to hear Bill Rogers (of "cracking the hard class" fame speak.)He was a big advocate of tactical ignoring and also not getting sucked into the "But Mr. A always lets us"thing. "Maybe, he does, maybe he doesn't but in my class the rules are .."

We were shown that video (again) during our Croke Park hours this week!

im glad to hear rainbowtrout that the croke park hours are of immense benefit. at least we got a speaker in! if you put a video on for a class there'd be raised eyebrows!

I do find that colleagues can undo a lot of your good work even if it is unintentional. sometimes we can become defeatist and lower our standards but its a bad road. as difficult as dealing with discipline is, not dealing with it is worse.

carolzoo

unfortunately often management prefer teachers to ignore issues as it is extra work for them to have deal with discipline issues. Of course there are some issues you can ignore etc and you choose your battles etc etc. But teachers cannot ignore everything! the code of discipline has to be followed and after that teachers need the support of management. Otherwise there is no consistency of approach in a school and students will have no boundaries.

teachers who don't bother management by reporting issues (after they have followed the code of discipline and done all they individually can) are seen in a favourable light by management.

Management need to change their stance in schools in relation to this.

I have friends(teachers) in other schools who feel the same. However it does not apply to all schools. Some schools have better managers than others in relation to the management of discipline.

rainbowtrout

bdoo wrote: »

im glad to hear rainbowtrout that the croke park hours are of immense benefit. at least we got a speaker in! if you put a video on for a class there'd be raised eyebrows!

No, we did have a speaker in, but she showed us a little of that video as part of her inservice thing.

lestat21

In relation to carolzoo not understanding the discipline code in the school... I had a similar situation, started a new school so i read the discipline code and the rule that were in the front of each students journal and discussed the correct procedure for specific incidents with colleagues. Taut I knew everything until I attended a staff meeting where the discipline code was brought up. Several long term teachers started discussing how the journal was underutilised and certain procedures seemed to have fallen out of practice. I was shocked by the things I didnt know and several teachers who had been teaching in this school before me were in the same situation. It really falls on the management to make things clearer to new incoming teachers.

Also carolzoo I am having a similar situation with a very mixed ability HL class that contains 30 students. Some cant do the work and others are bored and talking... I had been trying to keep students together by saying dont go past question 3 in your books but it isnt working out. Going to try and explain to them how much work is needed at higher level and start of the class give them a question number I expect them to have reached by the end of the class. This way students will know whats expected of them and more able students will be quiet and working away while Im helping weaker students. Hoping to introduce weaker students to more difficult qs by going thru them on the board and this will probably correct work for some students. Also been trying to encourage peer teaching and it has improved some students behaviour in class. I dont mind a bit of chat as long as the works done!! So hopefully that will work out tomorrow... finger crossed

seavill

As the management in your school are not of any help to you, similarly some of the other teachers I fell you need to try and concentrate on your self to get through to the end of the year.

I again go back to some sort of positive rewards system. Is there any way you can for example book a slot in the computer room as a reward for good behavior. There are loads of great websites where they can do some interactive maths or something still educational but away for the book and classroom.
You may end up winning over the weaker ones as maths on the computer rather than in the copy is something that they can gain success with very easily, as someone mentioned before about the weaker ones gaining success.

You could have a clear record system for all to see and if they get a certain number of x's for not following the rules they are not allowed use the computers they will be using their textbooks and copies while others are on the computers. They must catch up on the work they are not doing in class or at home.

I would pick specific issues in your class not just put everything under the one bracket of behavior.
For example everyone starts every class with 5 points. The only thing you can lose points for are for example getting out of your seat, using language and not bringing copy to class. Pick three simple things that may seem mad to be trying to work on but its the small things that add up. It could be even not having your tie on in class. Start with these and change after a few weeks if the issue is solved.
4 classes a week for 2 weeks so 40 points. To access the computers they must have 30 marks.
Make sure to start at an achievable level so the majority get it the first time so they can see what they are missing and then for the second set of 2 weeks move it up to 35 marks.
They will give the attitude that "sure I don't care I don't want to go on the computers anyway" however we all know inside it is killing them.
Set the standards in your own class. This would obviously be something that would be ideal for 2nd and 1st years more so than senior classes but if you get them sorted at a younger age it will make them easier to handle in later years.
Even if it is some sort of active maths lesson where they need to go out and measure the school field and work out its area or different activities like this. Put the most troublesome student as the leader in each group and they must be the ones to write the answer in the box.


In every school I was in there was always those 1 or 2 teachers who even the worst lads were kind of scared of. I am not saying you need to be like this but some of their methods did pay off. For example one teacher very strict on uniform coming into his class, also having diary on the desk the whole time. These small things lead to a whole atmosphere where things were expected in his class.
Whatever some of the lads did in other classrooms, they knew they must have themselves organised going into his class. You would see the ties coming out of bags and pockets on the way to English class, but they would not be put back on for the remainder of the day.

I think you need to pick your battles. The third years just try to concentrate on finishing out the year as anything you try do now will be lost within a couple of weeks when they are done. Try set your 2nd years up for 3rd year now.
Although it does sound very like stuff they preach in college but never happens in reality, some form of positive discipline can help.

Flashgordon197

Interesting points about positive discipline. I wonder does it work for Senior years-perhaps if it begun in JC? Any school that has tried it out there?

seavill

Flashgordon197 wrote: »

Interesting points about positive discipline. I wonder does it work for Senior years-perhaps if it begun in JC? Any school that has tried it out there?

All of the above I have tried and found them to be between successful and very successful.
Early on it was a lot of trial and error to get it right but once you get it it's worth it. It can be a lot of work for 3 or 4 weeks but when it pays off its great. Creates a very good atmosphere compared to one of being too strict
At the start I know I did get some very strange looks from older teachers and some were reluctant to get on board but when people see it work they do see the benefit.

Obviously it works better with some groups than others but overall a good experience.

For me ideal for first and second years. Senior classes I have not tried it with so I could not comment. The method I took with first years would seem very babyish for senior classes but I would imagine something adapted may work.

Overall the more teachers involved the better as it creates a structure for the kinds which the troublesome kids do actually like. Otherwise it's 11 teachers expecting at least 11different things which for weaker kids is not achievable

glenn3ie

Interesting discussion.

As a soon to be qualified teacher it's very disheartening hearing of all the discipline problems some teachers are having. I know a lot of people reading this will instantly disregard what I'm saying as I don't have much experience but here goes nothing...

Luckily, throughout my teaching practice (in what would have been a difficult enough school), I didn't had any major discipline issues.

A few things I did that might work;

Monthly written feedback to students
At the end of each month, I provided written feedback to students on their progess in my class. This included a section on 'what you've done well' and 'what could be improved'. There was also space for test results and room for a note on attendance/punctuality. Students had to get a slip signed by their parents to say they'd read it. This was received generally well and the 1-1 discussions with the students on how they were doing in the class seem to improve their confidence for the following month. I also asked them during this 1-1 discussion if there was anything I could do to improve their learning (my aim here was to put the ownership back on them). Some asked to be moved closer to the board, others asked for me to speak slower and others said nothing.

This did take a lot of time to do. It took about 10 minutes per student to think of useful feedback to give them.

It definitely motivated further those who already had some motivation towards learning and for those who weren't exactly motivated it put the ownership back on them i.e. they realised that if they didn't work they would be the ones to lose out.

Discipline Procedures
There wasn't clear discipline procedures in the school for misbehaviour (and judging by the posts here, when there are they are not followed!) so I came up with my own simple system for the students to follow.

No Homework = 100 lines for 1st year, 200 for 2nd year, 300 for 3rd year.
I explained to them on my first day that I wouldn't give homework all the time but when I did give it there was to be no excuses and they agreed to it. I gave homework usually 3 out of 5 days a week. Thankfully, they kept to their side of the agreement. Some pushed it the first two weeks but once they knew that I'd follow through with punishement they just did the homework.

What was more annoying for me was parents writing notes to excuse them for homework because of 'doctor's visits' or 'minding siblings'...

For those who were persistently disruptive (shouting out, constant distractions etc.) after verbal warnings they were asked to sit at the back of the room by themselves but I'd still keep them involved in the class. This generally worked. In my classes, I employ mostly group work so there's very few times were students have to listen to me talking. Because its infrequent, when I was talking they knew they had to listen.

For those that pushed it to the point that others were losing out on learning. I asked them to wait outside their tutors room (who were all supportive to this). I only had to do this 3 times over 6 months which I don't think was too bad.

Relationship outside of class
I maintained a friendly relationship with all students outside of class. Playing football or pool with the lads and just chatting with the girls at lunch. I think because we had a good relationship outside of the classroom, once we were inside they were less likely to be disruptive.

This was just my experience... I'll wait for people to tear it apart now but it seemed to work ok for me

lestat21

glenn3ie wrote: »

Monthly written feedback to students
At the end of each month, I provided written feedback to students on their progess in my class. This included a section on 'what you've done well' and 'what could be improved'. There was also space for test results and room for a note on attendance/punctuality. Students had to get a slip signed by their parents to say they'd read it. This was received generally well and the 1-1 discussions with the students on how they were doing in the class seem to improve their confidence for the following month. I also asked them during this 1-1 discussion if there was anything I could do to improve their learning (my aim here was to put the ownership back on them). Some asked to be moved closer to the board, others asked for me to speak slower and others said nothing.

Discipline Procedures
There wasn't clear discipline procedures in the school for misbehaviour (and judging by the posts here, when there are they are not followed!) so I came up with my own simple system for the students to follow.

No Homework = 100 lines for 1st year, 200 for 2nd year, 300 for 3rd year.
I explained to them on my first day that I wouldn't give homework all the time but when I did give it there was to be no excuses and they agreed to it. I gave homework usually 3 out of 5 days a week. Thankfully, they kept to their side of the agreement. Some pushed it the first two weeks but once they knew that I'd follow through with punishement they just did the homework.

What was more annoying for me was parents writing notes to excuse them for homework because of 'doctor's visits' or 'minding siblings'...

For those who were persistently disruptive (shouting out, constant distractions etc.) after verbal warnings they were asked to sit at the back of the room by themselves but I'd still keep them involved in the class. This generally worked. In my classes, I employ mostly group work so there's very few times were students have to listen to me talking. Because its infrequent, when I was talking they knew they had to listen.

For those that pushed it to the point that others were losing out on learning. I asked them to wait outside their tutors room (who were all supportive to this). I only had to do this 3 times over 6 months which I don't think was too bad.

i love your idea of monthly written feedback, especially the bit where students are asked to give suggestions.. might include something like this with my next test results....

But your discipline system jst really shocked me.... I've never heard of anyone giving lines and it just seems pointless and unimaginative to me. It doesnt help students who dont do homework cos they cant understand it or dont want to fail. Did you try putting notes in their journal?? Students hate this especially cos I make sure that parents have signed the journal. Catching up on homework during lunchtime detention is also a good one if your school has a policy on detention.

Removing a student from the classroom is a very ... sensitive issue. I know that the student has to be escorted from the classroom as they are your responsibility and cant be allowed to wander the corridors. This often means leaving the door open and catching a teacher walking by who can help you out. I would never remove a student from the class unless they were aggressive or verbally abusive but thats just me. I put the focus on student learning and disruptive students very soon find themselves sitting up the front cos their work has fallen down and I want to see them improve.

Also noone has said it yet, but teachers give students a million and one chances to improve their behaviour. We have to. Everyday is a blank page and once the issue is resolved, it doesnt matter who you had a fight with the day before. The ideal situation is when students are reprimanded and the issue is passed up the chain of management as required but then the situation is forgotten and theyve another chance to act differently. By explaining this to disruptive students, they cant feel like youre picking on them all the time... unless theyre been bold all the time

carolzoo

well done. your monthly report card sounds good. I would imagine junior cycle students would take that more seriously than senior cycle students though.

I wonder would that work for non examination subjects like sphe though?

We were told before at an inservice that giving lines to a student was not productive and could put them off bookwork!

Also I cannot imagine senior students co operating with this. Perhaps the first year or second years might. What stance did you employ if students refused do to the lines, did they get double to do? did you write a note in their journal or later bring it up the chain of discipline? did it work?

just curious as to what subject you teach that you can do a lot of group work in? it's the way to go if your subject lends itself to a lot of it.
just that some subjects don't lead themselves to a lot of group work - students still need the core material explained. With such short classes time wise difficult to implement everything. In addition students with sen or dyslexia have to be taken into account and material explained + read/visually displayed by the teacher also

rainbowtrout

glenn3ie wrote: »

Interesting discussion.

As a soon to be qualified teacher it's very disheartening hearing of all the discipline problems some teachers are having. I know a lot of people reading this will instantly disregard what I'm saying as I don't have much experience but here goes nothing...

Luckily, throughout my teaching practice (in what would have been a difficult enough school), I didn't had any major discipline issues.

A few things I did that might work;

Monthly written feedback to students
At the end of each month, I provided written feedback to students on their progess in my class. This included a section on 'what you've done well' and 'what could be improved'. There was also space for test results and room for a note on attendance/punctuality. Students had to get a slip signed by their parents to say they'd read it. This was received generally well and the 1-1 discussions with the students on how they were doing in the class seem to improve their confidence for the following month. I also asked them during this 1-1 discussion if there was anything I could do to improve their learning (my aim here was to put the ownership back on them). Some asked to be moved closer to the board, others asked for me to speak slower and others said nothing.

This did take a lot of time to do. It took about 10 minutes per student to think of useful feedback to give them.

It definitely motivated further those who already had some motivation towards learning and for those who weren't exactly motivated it put the ownership back on them i.e. they realised that if they didn't work they would be the ones to lose out.

Discipline Procedures
There wasn't clear discipline procedures in the school for misbehaviour (and judging by the posts here, when there are they are not followed!) so I came up with my own simple system for the students to follow.

No Homework = 100 lines for 1st year, 200 for 2nd year, 300 for 3rd year.
I explained to them on my first day that I wouldn't give homework all the time but when I did give it there was to be no excuses and they agreed to it. I gave homework usually 3 out of 5 days a week. Thankfully, they kept to their side of the agreement. Some pushed it the first two weeks but once they knew that I'd follow through with punishement they just did the homework.

What was more annoying for me was parents writing notes to excuse them for homework because of 'doctor's visits' or 'minding siblings'...

For those who were persistently disruptive (shouting out, constant distractions etc.) after verbal warnings they were asked to sit at the back of the room by themselves but I'd still keep them involved in the class. This generally worked. In my classes, I employ mostly group work so there's very few times were students have to listen to me talking. Because its infrequent, when I was talking they knew they had to listen.

For those that pushed it to the point that others were losing out on learning. I asked them to wait outside their tutors room (who were all supportive to this). I only had to do this 3 times over 6 months which I don't think was too bad.

Relationship outside of class
I maintained a friendly relationship with all students outside of class. Playing football or pool with the lads and just chatting with the girls at lunch. I think because we had a good relationship outside of the classroom, once we were inside they were less likely to be disruptive.

This was just my experience... I'll wait for people to tear it apart now but it seemed to work ok for me

Good to hear that you have had a good experience but there were a few things that stuck out for me

300 lines for third years that aren't doing their homework. That's 10 refill pages. I know I made a point earlier about students getting a punishment and their parents telling them not to do it, but if I saw a child coming home with 300 lines for not doing homework, I'd probably tell them the same. It's completely over the top. Lines in themselves are pointless and serve no educational purpose, so I'd be a bit put out to see a child filling 10 pages with them. I couldn't imagine them having much time to do any other homework that night.

You were lucky you had supportive staff. Putting students out of the room is a big no-no. They are unsupervised.

glenn3ie

Hi all.

Thanks for your comments.

The feedback sheet is not a report card just to make that clear! Report cards are perceived as negative. From my experience the senior students got more out of it because they were able to have more of a grown up conversation with regards to their progresss.

The school I was working in did not have great parental support so notes in journals were generally ignored by some parents.

In relations to lines. I think they can have the desired effect. Unimaginative, loborious work. I would never give maths or science (my subjects) as punishment. I don't think your subjects should be perceived as punishment! This method worked with me and my classmates when I was in school. Once you got lines once you didn't get them again! If you didn't do the lines I wrote a note to parents if I knew its be signed. I guess the lines were a way of the students making up without getting parents involved which I think the students appreciated.

In relation to students being out of class alone. This differs from school to school. Some schools are uneccesarily over the top in not allowing it. What do they do if they need to use the loo or go their locker? Most schools are more realistic about it and teachers tolerate it.

gaeilgebeo

glenn3ie wrote: »

Hi all.

Thanks for your comments.

The feedback sheet is not a report card just to make that clear! Report cards are perceived as negative. From my experience the senior students got more out of it because they were able to have more of a grown up conversation with regards to their progresss.

The school I was working in did not have great parental support so notes in journals were generally ignored by some parents.

In relations to lines. I think they can have the desired effect. Unimaginative, loborious work. I would never give maths or science (my subjects) as punishment. I don't think your subjects should be perceived as punishment! This method worked with me and my classmates when I was in school. Once you got lines once you didn't get them again! If you didn't do the lines I wrote a note to parents if I knew its be signed. I guess the lines were a way of the students making up without getting parents involved which I think the students appreciated.

In relation to students being out of class alone. This differs from school to school. Some schools are uneccesarily over the top in not allowing it. What do they do if they need to use the loo or go their locker? Most schools are more realistic about it and teachers tolerate it.

You have duty of care to your students and you are responsible or them when they are in your class.
What if you put a student out of class and they get peeved enough and decide to take a wee stroll down the town and get knocked down?
Good luck with that lawsuit!
We have had it hammered into us by our principal about this issue and I can completely see the point. Throwing a student out of class is not the same as letting them out to the loo!

rainbowtrout

glenn3ie wrote: »

Hi all.

Thanks for your comments.

The feedback sheet is not a report card just to make that clear! Report cards are perceived as negative. From my experience the senior students got more out of it because they were able to have more of a grown up conversation with regards to their progresss.

The school I was working in did not have great parental support so notes in journals were generally ignored by some parents.

In relations to lines. I think they can have the desired effect. Unimaginative, loborious work. I would never give maths or science (my subjects) as punishment. I don't think your subjects should be perceived as punishment! This method worked with me and my classmates when I was in school. Once you got lines once you didn't get them again! If you didn't do the lines I wrote a note to parents if I knew its be signed. I guess the lines were a way of the students making up without getting parents involved which I think the students appreciated.

In relation to students being out of class alone. This differs from school to school. Some schools are uneccesarily over the top in not allowing it. What do they do if they need to use the loo or go their locker? Most schools are more realistic about it and teachers tolerate it.

Leaving a student go to the toilet for 2 minutes when you know they'll return and get on with their work and throwing out an angry, belligerent student and telling them to sit outside someones door for god knows how long unsupervised are completely different scenarios, and it's asking for trouble. I'd get shot if I put a student out of my class and sent them anywhere.

And on the lines thing, boring and labourious yes, but my point was 300 is way too much. A third year should know better and should have done their homework, but first a first time misdemeanour? They might end up not getting any other homework done because of your 300 lines. Give them a punishment certainly but at the detriment of all other work. Certainly not in Junior Cert year.

gaeilgebeo

I appreciate the points you have made and that the strategies have worked for you. I do however think things vary hugely from school to school. I teach in a "tough school" too.

"At the end of each month, I provided written feedback to students on their progess in my class".

Do you do this for all students consistently for the entire year?
I honestly don't know where I would get more time to do even more paperwork on top of normal class assessment/feedback.


"No Homework = 100 lines for 1st year, 200 for 2nd year, 300 for 3rd year".

You are lucky that most of the students agreed to do these lines and that parents weren't kicking up. In my school, a student given 300 lines would be more likely to tell you to "stick the lines up your a*se!" Parents would be in to make a "complaint" or try to get you "fired".

"In my classes, I employ mostly group work so there's very few times were students have to listen to me talking".

You were lucky that students participated in group work. For a lot of class groups in a lot of schools, this is a no-go area!

"For those that pushed it to the point that others were losing out on learning. I asked them to wait outside their tutors room (who were all supportive to this). I only had to do this 3 times over 6 months which I don't think was too bad".

I am a tutor. I do not want to be responsible for another teachers student outside my door. Nor do I want my lesson interrupted to deal with another teachers discipline issues.

"I maintained a friendly relationship with all students outside of class. Playing football or pool with the lads and just chatting with the girls at lunch. I think because we had a good relationship outside of the classroom, once we were inside they were less likely to be disruptive".

Be very careful with this. There is a very fine line between student/teacher boundaries and teenagers can often misconstrue these.

I do not want to "tear" you apart. Just giving a view from a different school!
I'm teaching a long time and have good discipline. What works in one school, may not work in the next. What works with one class group may not work with the next class group.
I don't ever think that it's as simple as certain strategies working right across the board. I have completely different strategies for every class group I teach.