Mulherin's 'fornication' statements described as primitive

finisklin

From the Mayo Advertiser....

Mulherin's 'fornication' statements described as primitive

Mayo Advertiser, April 20, 2012.
Pictured enjoying the Mayo Dublin Association dinner earlier this year is Michelle Mulherin TD with An Taoiseach, Enda Kenny TD.

By Joan Geraghty
Mayo Fine Gael TD and solicitor Michelle Mulherin, whose puzzling contribution during a Dáil debate on the X case yesterday, in which she declared that “fornication . . . is probably the single most likely cause of unwanted pregnancies in this country” has sparked a furore that continues to run and run this weekend.

During the debate, the UCD Law Graduate and former Mayor of Ballina issued a rambling, statement as follows: “I am against abortion in any form myself. The grace of God is so liberating and provides so many options to get the best out of life despite our fall in nature, and we all have that. Having said that it is an ideal to aim for. In an ideal world there would be no unwanted pregnancies and no unwanted babies. But we are far from living in an ideal world. An honest and a scriptural view is that things are getting harder for people, so what then for the weak in our society?

“Abortion as murder, therefore sin, which is the religious argument, is no more sinful, from a scriptural point of view, than all other sins we don’t legislate against, like greed, hate and fornication. The latter, being fornication, I would say, is probably the single most likely cause of unwanted pregnancies in this country.”

The remarks went viral on national, international, and social media within moments with commentators to websites primarily questioning the use of the old-fashioned term ‘fornication’ (and its various dictionary and biblical definitions in regard to (unlawful) sexual intercourse between parties not married to each other) in this day and age by a modern TD such as Ms Mulherin.

A sample of comments reacting to her Dáil contribution on the politics.ie website included:

“There was no fornication in Ireland before TV.”
“I'm none the wiser as to whether she is speaking in favour of or against abortion legislation. Is she saying abortion is no worse than other sins we don't proscribe or is she saying that there should be no legislation in this case?”

“You have to credit her for having the brains of the century – last year she managed to fornicate €1,000 in allowances every week from the Irish taxpayer.”

Other comments included, from disillusioned: “I swear yer TDness I caught it off a toilet seat/jacuzzi/bicycle seat.”
“Fornication FFS? What century is she living in?”
“But I thought it was the bird and the bees. Somebody has been telling me lies”
“The spirit of Alice Glenn is alive and well in Fine Gael.”
“Clearly the Fine Gael party is in safe hands for the future.”
There were also some favourable comments such as: “She was pointing out that the religious arguments for legislating against abortion don't stack up because the sin of fornication is just as grave according to the church but there is no one trying to legislate for that.”
Elected as one of four Fine Gael TDs for Mayo in 2011, Michelle Mulherin was the first female councillor for Fine Gael elected to Ballina Town Council in 1999 and was also elected to Mayo County Council as Fine Gael’s first female county councillor.
The private members bill on the X Case which was raised in the Dáil yesterday (Thursday) by socialist TD Clare Daly proposing to make abortion legal for pregnant women whose lives may be at risk, was eventually defeated 109 votes to 20, with Fianna Fáil voting against and Sinn Féin in favour. Following the debate, Ms Daly attacked Deputy Mulherin for her “primitive views”, saying: “It was a very astute observation on her part generally speaking that pregnancy does arise from sex. I thought at first it was a moment of merriment but the woman said it with a straight face.”

Ms Mulherin’s Fine Gael TD colleagues in Mayo were uncontactable yesterday and a spokesperson confirmed that the party was ‘making no comment’ on the story.
Speaking on Matt Cooper’s The Last Word programme on Today FM following the furore yesterday, Deputy Mulherin, asked to explain her ‘fornication’ remarks, said she had spoken “open and honestly” on the issue before stumbling into further ramblings after being asked for her definition of fornication, to which she replied: “Fornication is not a word I invented, it refers to consensual sex between adults outside of marriage; we have moved towards more responsibility on the individual; in the 70s a married couple could not have legal sex without the say of their doctors on contraception; homosexuality was also illegal, all on religious grounds.

“The first thing is we need to have debates to move things along and arrive where we can be comfortable in a society legislating on things that have a moral element to them. We look to the issue of abortion, there are approximately 4,500 women who feel for various reasons they need to go to the UK for an abortion, in a lot of cases and anecdotally in a lot of cases, we know people are having a lot of casual sex and pregnancies are happening that are not wanted.

“We need a discussion around who is having unprotected sex; around issues such as AIDS as well as pregnancy that can happen; there is an elephant in the room, let’s take responsibility for women, it’s about a bigger debate of how we get there.”
She was stopped in her monologue by presenter Matt Cooper, who called on Socialist TD Clare Daly, who had raised the X case issue in the Dáil to respond. Dep Daly said: “We thought fornication meant sex for pleasure – such an outdated term that a deputy would even use – what is Deputy Mulherin saying? In 2012, that people who are not married, that this is the cause of unwanted pregnancy? That is simply not true. To link somebody’s family status as being the source of an unwanted pregnancy is disgusting in the modern age. There are people the length and breadth of this country thinking this is a Monty Python sketch - that someone in this day and age can even come out with such a statement – but it is clearly a minority view that was met with gasps when stated in the Dáil.”

Deputy Mulherin’s ramblings continued to descend into farce as she continued, as below, before eventually being cut off mid flow by presenter, Matt Cooper, reminding her she was a Government TD, .
“She can turn it into a joke. Take religion out of it. Where people are perhaps engaging, I’m surmising here, in casual encounters, where people are obviously not using protection, people are thinking this is the end of my life, I need to have an abortion; what I feel has nearly happened in this country is for years we have had morality shoved down our throat and I don’t agree but now we have the flip side and people are saying, let’s face it, to get an abortion, but let’s talk about the consequences, the flip of religiosity isn’t promiscuity; but if people are being driven in a certain way towards sexual intercourse for pleasure is there something darker here, why can’t we talk about that?”


Was this a carefully crafted political strategy to raise her politcal profile or a political own goal?

I love the picture...the actual one in the advertiser shows more leg! The photo editor was working overtime to dig that one out!

Cosmo Kramer

Careful strategy? Only if she intended to humiliate herself in front of the whole country. What an absolute embarrassment for her.

It will be impossible for her to be taken seriously as a politician in terms of her views on other issues from now on, she will simply be known as the 'fornication lady'.

And, as if things weren't bad enough for her, she's agreed to go on the Saturday Night Show tonight. She really needs to stop digging, she's only going to humiliate herself further at this stage. She's being ripped to shreds in the nationals today. As a supposed younger face of Fine Gael, it just shows how out of touch with society her views are. No sign of her local party colleagues coming to her defence either, they're leaving her to suffer on this one.

finisklin

Inda must be having a canary....

Jim2007

The Sarah Palin of irish politics!!!

Cosmo Kramer

Well that was hard enough to watch. She's got herself in an awful twist over something she never needed to veer into and, to be honest, shown herself to the country as a bit of a rambling idiot in the process.

What she needs to do now is disappear under the radar for a fair while before she makes a bad situation even worse. The problem is that when she comes back into public view she will still be remembered for this over anything else for a long time.

PogMoThoin

Why do people vote for eejits like this? Man, our political system is an absolute farce

HarryPotter41

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Well that was hard enough to watch. She's got herself in an awful twist over something she never needed to veer into and, to be honest, shown herself to the country as a bit of a rambling idiot in the process.

What she needs to do now is disappear under the radar for a fair while before she makes a bad situation even worse. The problem is that when she comes back into public view she will still be remembered for this over anything else for a long time.

In fairness a lot of people who have experience of Deputy Mulherin would be more than familiar with the fact she can be a bit of a rambling idiot politically. She has been very quiet since her election and her two major forays involved Libya and these fornication remarks, both times showing a complete lack of understanding of what she was talking about. We should be grateful she keeps so quiet.

StudentDad

I don't know where all the bile for Mulherin is coming from. She made some valid points - abortion is a mortal sin - so is sex outside marriage

Random coupling leads to pregnancy - simples!

SD

PogMoThoin

Harry, What good is a rambling idiot politician who puts their foot in it? We need educated, well spoken, non religiously biassed people to bring us forward, not a clown like this

finisklin

Rambling is the word. She didn't state her position on abortion when asked or whether she has fornicated or not, she wasn't a holy Joe yet she reads scripture, and has the courage to stand up to the liberal agenda, as outlined in her closing piece.

Whatever about herself the party handlers must have been cringeing as she came across like a school teacher (pointing and gesticulating) and her language was way too formal for the tonight show, and perhaps way too under dressed for the subject matter. A big own goal for her and for the party.

Brendan O'Connor was also way too easy on her, especially when she lost her way. Perhaps lessons with some of these communication specialists would have went a long way to clarify her position. Even that was lost on her.

How can she be taken seriously on the canvass at the next election? Hopefully not......

finisklin

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Harry, What good is a rambling idiot politician who puts their foot in it? We need educated, well spoken, non religiously biassed people to bring us forward, not a clown like this

Fair point except that the only qualification you need to be a politician is the balls to put yourself forward and get more votes than the next candidate.

Experience, knowledge and insight into particular areas are irrelevant if you can't secure those votes (either through the party system or on your own).

I won't even get into the party system......

Jim2007

finisklin wrote: »

Perhaps lessons with some of these communication specialists would have went a long way to clarify her position. Even that was lost on her.

What she needs is a Pee FLynn make over...

TopTec

I have just watched her performance on RTE and was struck by the womans arrogance. I don't support parties, only individuals. I heard her on the today programme and saw her self-serving sycophantic performance at the Bonniconlon show last year in the shadow of Enda Kenny

She defends her use of the term fornication with a rambling defence based on blaming others, the church or dictionary definitions but hasn't the courage to actually state her own position. She clearly has no idea about modern society and couldn't even express any empathy for the poor women who would be helped by this particular piece of legislation.

GGGRRRRRRRR

TT

Duiske

I see the digital rag that is the MailOnline have a piece on Mulherin's personal life this morning.

nuac

Gosh - a politician who is not a slave to political correctness and does not appear to need a spindoctor to express her POV.

If she ever gets to be a Mininister the Sir Humphries of the civil service will earn their money and pensions

finisklin

nuac wrote: »

Gosh - a politician who is not a slave to political correctness and does not appear to need a spindoctor to express her POV.

If she ever gets to be a Mininister the Sir Humphries of the civil service will earn their money and pensions

Ok she expressed her point of view but didn't state her own personal position on abortion, fornication etc (possibly down to poor communication coaching) and that IMHO her PoV is completely out of sync with modern Ireland.

The Sir Humphries will earn their pay if she's a minister as the work to ensure that she understands and is in a position to develop policy in the various portfolio challenges will be immense (with the exception of justice as that is her background). Then she has to go and explain that to her cabinet colleagues etc. Heaven forbid......

qrrgprgua

What is wrong with a women expressing her opinion? Too many politicians get covered in political correctness.

What she said was totally correct. The 4000 women who go to the UK to have an abortion are not women who have pregnancy with trisomy 13 or some other condition. Most of them are young women who have an unexpected pregnancy.

What is wrong with being responsible in the first place? If they had got AIDs or Hepatitis you live with the consequences.. But if you get pregnant its off to liverpool.

Well done for voicing a view that is different from the current trend. Its not bloody north korea here. She has the right to express an opinion.

Anyway she made a valid point.. why even get into the situation where you need an abortion.. its 2012 Ireland and contraception is very widely available.

Oldtree

the following are the actual statistics relating to MM's speech:

"Figures released by the UK Department of Health show a total of 4,402 women providing Irish addresses had terminations in England and Wales for 2010"

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0524/breaking44.html

% breakdown for 2010 abortions in UK (general)

49% to women with partners )
16% occurred within marriage ) total 65%
26% were to single women

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/may/24/abortion-statistics-england-wales

Why not let MM know what you think of her speech directly:
http://www.finegael.ie/our-people/tds/michelle-mulherin/index.xml
mobile number here:
http://michelle-mulherin.t-ds.mayo-politicians.mayo.tel/

thysich

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Why do people vote for eejits like this? Man, our political system is an absolute farce

Well last I checked it was MY DEMOCRATIC RIGHT!!!!.....

Yes our Political system is a farce.. 12 years of FF and billions of debt. Deputy Mulherin is no farce.

As councillor in Ballina she was one of the few politicians that actually did do something.

So we voted for her as TD on her merits. And I would vote for her again regardless of her personal beliefs.

Any what is wrong with speaking your mind in Ireland.. Its not 17 centenary Ireland where Catholics had to shut up and practise our faith behind closed doors.

Medicine333

Well, you do realise that she is correct? People who decide to end the life of their unborn child by termination are people who are not married, in the overwhelming majority of cases.

I think it is an over-reaction by the media, to be honest.

TopTec

Medicine333 wrote: »

People who decide to end the life of their unborn child by termination are people who are not married, in the overwhelming majority of cases.

And the source for this statement is?

TT

Medicine333

TopTec wrote: »

And the source of this statement is?

TT

Look above to OldTree's post. All the data you require is there.

Cosmo Kramer

This could honestly finish her as a national politician. She has shown a total lack of political ability to keep her nose out of trouble - it's very unlikely that she could be trusted with even a junior ministerial responsibility after this.

Meanwhile her personal life is going to be much more in the public domain than previously and she's starting to come across as a massive hypocrite in terms of how she lives her own life compared to how she thinks others should live theirs. She has come across as very arrogant also. Who knows what skeletons there might yet be to emerge, she has left herself wide open to attack from the media now.

Also, she has yet to clarify her position on the issues she has raised with any degree of clarity, her ducking and dodging of questions on TV last night was pretty pathetic to watch and O'Connor went very easy on her. She has shown herself up as a thoroughly incompetent public speaker, which is incredible at this stage for someone from a legal background with previous experience as a Councillor and Mayor.

The Mayo electorate will know a lot more about Michelle Mulherin by the time the next election rolls around than they did last time and it is questionable whether they will still consider her to be the right person to represent them. Judging from people I have spoken to this week, it looks like she may well have alienated herself from both the conservative and liberal sections of the electorate in one go here, which is quite an achievement, albeit not something she would have been seeking to achieve.

PogMoThoin

She's bible bashing, She should not be using religious tongue in political statements.

I am against abortion in any form. The grace of God is so liberating and provides so many options to get the best out of life despite our fallen nature

thysich

PogMoThoin wrote: »

She's bible bashing, She should not be using religious tongue in political statements.

Its a free country... Why all of a sudden is it wrong to speak your mind. Who said that you have to keep your beliefs hidden?

Oldtree

Medicine333 wrote: »

Look above to OldTree's post. All the data you require is there.

In the strictest religious sense you are correct when you refer to my post with only 16% of UK terminations having occured within marriage. Fornication typically refers to consensual sexual intercourse between two people not married to each other.

"The latter, being fornication, I would say, is probably the single most likely cause of unwanted pregnancies in this country."

However my reasoning for putting a total of 65% on my post is that I consider 49% to women with partners (imo a modern marriage (argueably +or- some %)) and 16% occurred within marriage to be (again argueably +or- some %) to represent the majority of cases.

(9% seems to be missing from the article's figures but this may refer to girls under the age of 16)

So while not debating here the rights or wrongs of the content of the whole speech, literally the comment is incorrect in using the words "most likely". Baseless passionate retoric is imo dangerous and provocotive in the public arena, verging on the ignorant. Speak your mind as and when you will, but it is innappropiate for a person on a public platform to misquote the truth.

That was my point.

Medicine333

Oldtree wrote: »

In the strictest religious sense you are correct when you refer to my post with only 16% of UK terminations having occured within marriage. Fornication typically refers to consensual sexual intercourse between two people not married to each other.

"The latter, being fornication, I would say, is probably the single most likely cause of unwanted pregnancies in this country."

However my reasoning for putting a total of 65% on my post is that I consider 49% to women with partners (imo a modern marriage (argueably +or- some %)) and 16% occurred within marriage to be (again argueably +or- some %) to represent the majority of cases.

(9% seems to be missing from the article's figures but this may refer to girls under the age of 16)

So while not debating here the rights or wrongs of the content of the whole speech, literally the comment is incorrect in using the words "most likely". Baseless passionate retoric is imo dangerous and provocotive in the public arena, verging on the ignorant.

That was my point.

I wasn't arguing with you at all, just quoting the stats you put up.

Just for the record, marriage is marriage. Two people living together is not marriage. It is included in what this politician is talking about.

It is not correct to say two people who are living together and in a relationship are married.

gizmo555

thysich wrote: »

Its a free country... Why all of a sudden is it wrong to speak your mind. Who said that you have to keep your beliefs hidden?

+1

As Gene Kerrigan points out, even if you disagree with her - as I do myself - the main problem the "progressive" media have with Deputy Mulherin's comments is that they don't conicide with approved liberal dogma. At least she has some principles, unlike some other recent TDs for Mayo . . .

Last week, Fine Gael TD Michelle Mulherin drew sneers when she made a Dail speech condemning "fornication" -- sex outside marriage. I read her speech and disagree with its argument.

But there's no doubt it's a coherent, sincere expression of an undiluted Catholic view. (You should read the Seventies debates on contraception, in which future supposed paragons of liberalism condemned "fornication" in much more offensive terms.)

Why did Mulherin's speech attract such attention? Because it was unusual. It was a bare, frank and serious expression of a political position still held by many -- whatever you or I might think of it. As such, it seemed grossly out of place in our national parliament.

Jim2007

thysich wrote: »

Its a free country... Why all of a sudden is it wrong to speak your mind. Who said that you have to keep your beliefs hidden?

It is a free country and people are entitled to speak their minds, however people are also entitled to the representation they believe they voted for and what they now find is a strong traditional born again christian, that kept her believes well under raps during the election! If she had come out with the kind of statement she made in the Dail on the stump, she might have found that she was as unelectable as Dana!

It will be interesting to see what the people of Mayo do next time around...

Oldtree

Medicine333 wrote: »

I wasn't arguing with you at all, just quoting the stats you put up.
Just for the record, marriage is marriage. Two people living together is not marriage. It is included in what this politician is talking about.
It is not correct to say two people who are living together and in a relationship are married.

I know that and I did not take what you said as an argument I was just highlighting what I meant by the post,

However my opinion is just that and it seems that our society is heading along similar lines with the implementation of the Civil Partnership Act, which imo has diluted the strict religious and legal opinion of marriage.

Medicine333

Jim2007 wrote: »

It is a free country and people are entitled to speak their minds, however people are also entitled to the representation they believe they voted for and what they now find is a strong traditional born again christian, that kept her believes well under raps during the election! If she had come out with the kind of statement she made in the Dail on the stump, she might have found that she was as unelectable as Dana!

It will be interesting to see what the people of Mayo do next time around...

This woman was voted in by people who have the right to vote. Who are you to say they were mal-informed?

It always interests me when people attack someone who is simply stating her opinion, and a valid one at that(who will say that most abortions occur within marriage?!) and then claim that 'everyone has the right to free speech!'

The hypocrisy is damning.

The woman was expressing her view that most terminations of unborn children occur outside of marriage. Just because she uses a term which denotes sexual relations outside of marriage, people go mad because it seemingly insults their own opinions regarding impurity.

People will always argue over nothing.

Medicine333

Oldtree wrote: »

I know that and I did not take what you said as an argument I was just highlighting what I meant by the post,

However my opinion is just that and it seems that our society is heading along similar lines with the implementation of the Civil Partnership Act, which imo has diluted the strict religious and legal opinion of marriage.

Your opinion is two people in a relationship and living together are married?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but if not, that is incredibly incorrect.

Oldtree

I consider any long term relationship a form of marriage.

"Incredibly incorrect" I think not... although now I think about it again perhaps from a very narrow perspective!

"In some cases cohabitation may constitute a common-law marriage, and in some countries the laws recognize cohabitation in preference to the formality of marriage for taxation and social security benefits. This is the case, for example, in Australia: the individual lives with the individual on a genuine domestic basis in a relationship as a couple"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage#cite_note-83

and in this country The Act defines “qualified cohabitants” as those residing together as an unmarried couple in an intimate relationship for a period of five years, or two years where there is a child or children of the relationship.

Medicine333

Oldtree wrote: »

I consider any long term relationship a form of marriage.

"Incredibly incorrect" I think not... although now I think about it again perhaps from a very narrow perspective!

A lot would disagree with you there, the Church and State in particular.

If two people are married, it is highly unlikely they would abort their child. Why would they?

The majority of abortions occur with individuals who are unmarried and they do not want their children so they terminate their lives.

I don't think anyone would make the inaccurate assumption that most abortions occur in marriage? Rather most occur as a result of fornication i.e. sexual relations outside of marriage.

Ilovelucy

thysich wrote: »

Well last I checked it was MY DEMOCRATIC RIGHT!!!!.....

Yes our Political system is a farce.. 12 years of FF and billions of debt. Deputy Mulherin is no farce.

As councillor in Ballina she was one of the few politicians that actually did do something.

So we voted for her as TD on her merits. And I would vote for her again regardless of her personal beliefs.

Any what is wrong with speaking your mind in Ireland.. Its not 17 centenary Ireland where Catholics had to shut up and practise our faith behind closed doors.

What exactly was she responsible for in her own right while she was a member of the council?

Oldtree

Medicine333 wrote: »

A lot would disagree with you there, the Church and State in particular.

If two people are married, it is highly unlikely they would abort their child. Why would they?

The majority of abortions occur with individuals who are unmarried and they do not want their children so they terminate their lives.

I don't think anyone would make the inaccurate assumption that most abortions occur in marriage? Rather most occur as a result of fornication i.e. sexual relations outside of marriage.

Is the church your master, not mine...!
From the UK figures 16% of the terminations are from married women (a significant number) so you will have to ask them why it is not "highly unlightly"
There are a miriad of reasons for terminations not simlpy "do not want their children so they terminate their lives"!
See the edit to my last post for modern changing definition of marriage.

Medicine333

Oldtree wrote: »

Is the church your master, not mine...!
From the UK figures 16% of the terminations are from married women (a significant number) so you will have to ask them why it is not "highly unlightly"
There are a miriad of reasons for terminations not simlpy "do not want their children so they terminate their lives"!
See the edit to my last post for modern changing definition of marriage.

Do you not think that 84% is an overwhelming majority? Mulherin's said that fornication is the main situation under which abortions occur-WHICH IS CORRECT!

I cannot understand how you have a problem with that, along with the fact that you don't understand the concept of marriage.

Oldtree

Medicine333 wrote: »

Do you not think that 84% is an overwhelming majority? Mulherin's said that fornication is the main situation under which abortions occur-WHICH IS CORRECT!

I cannot understand how you have a problem with that, along with the fact that you don't understand the concept of marriage.

There you go again, 84% is in fact incorrect: As I mentioned above in the literal sense Fornication typically refers to consensual sexual intercourse between two people not married to each other. Why are you including the (9% which is potentially underage girls), that is far from consensual.

thysich

gizmo555 wrote: »

+1

As Gene Kerrigan points out, even if you disagree with her - as I do myself - the main problem the "progressive" media have with Deputy Mulherin's comments is that they don't conicide with approved liberal dogma. At least she has some principles, unlike some other recent TDs for Mayo . . .

Last week, Fine Gael TD Michelle Mulherin drew sneers when she made a Dail speech condemning "fornication" -- sex outside marriage. I read her speech and disagree with its argument.

But there's no doubt it's a coherent, sincere expression of an undiluted Catholic view. (You should read the Seventies debates on contraception, in which future supposed paragons of liberalism condemned "fornication" in much more offensive terms.)

Why did Mulherin's speech attract such attention? Because it was unusual. It was a bare, frank and serious expression of a political position still held by many -- whatever you or I might think of it. As such, it seemed grossly out of place in our national parliament.

Exactly, you don't have to agree with her position to respect her position.

We had a child before we got married. Would not be the most religious person. I would have fallen into her fornication definition. But as soon as my GF was pregnant we took our responsibilities seriously, we didn't fly off to the UK to resolve the crisis... Needless to say 11 years later we are extremely happy, and even more happy that we never even contemplated anything else other than having the baby.

She stated the obvious and held up her beliefs.. Because she is not a left wing liberal she does not fit in the liberal dogma that society thinks we all should have.. that somehow its wrong to say that you don't believe in Abortion. Its not. You should be able to have an opinion and be able to voice that opinion. A Muslim can be a Muslim in Ireland and act and dress like a Muslim and we accept it. Yet it seems a Catholic can't be a Catholic if they become a politician.

Honestly what is wrong with saying there are alternatives to sex without commitment?

I am sure if the electorate disagree with her in Mayo she won't be elected next time. My opinion is that she has shown herself as an honest person standing up for her beliefs... And what does the media do... jump down her throat.

Medicine333

Oldtree wrote: »

There you go again, 84% is in fact incorrect: As I mentioned above in the literal sense Fornication typically refers to consensual sexual intercourse between two people not married to each other. Why are you including the (9% which is potentially underage girls), that is far from consensual.

Answer this very simple question:

Are you saying that the majority of situations in which unborn children are terminated occurs within marriage?

Seriously, are you saying that?

Your argument is crumbling with making statements like people who are not married ARE actually married!

Oldtree

Medicine333 wrote: »

Answer this very simple question:
Are you saying that the majority of situations in which unborn children are terminated occurs within marriage?
Seriously, are you saying that?
Your argument is crumbling with making statements like people who are not married ARE actually married!

I am saying that from available figures the majority of terminations in the UK where the unborn fetus is terminated occurs within marriage and partnerships (which I consider a form of marriage).

thysich

Medicine333 wrote: »

Answer this very simple question:

Are you saying that the majority of situations in which unborn children are terminated occurs within marriage?

Seriously, are you saying that?

Your argument is crumbling with making statements like people who are not married ARE actually married!

Marital status of Irish residents having abortions in England & Wales during the year 2010:-

Single 78%
Married 13%
Separated or divorced
or widowed 2%
Not classified 6%



Age ranges of Irish residents having abortions in England & Wales during the year 2010


%
Under 16 years old
Just less than 1%
All persons under 18 years
Just less than 4%
Persons aged 18 and 19 years
7%
Persons in their 20s
53%
Persons in their 30s
31%
Persons in their 40s
6%

Medicine333

Oldtree wrote: »

I am saying that from available figures the majority of terminations in the UK where the unborn fetus is terminated occurs within marriage and partnerships (which I consider a form of marriage).

Right, that's your opinion, which in my eyes is so inaccurate it's painful to read.

Marriage is not involved when two people are living together. Sorry, you're wrong.

You're the kind of person who will try to wriggle out of argument by making non-sensical statements like that due to your own bias against the Church.

thysich

Oldtree wrote: »

I am saying that from available figures the majority of terminations in the UK where the unborn fetus is terminated occurs within marriage and partnerships (which I consider a form of marriage).

I was in a partnership with GF when she got pregnant. it was unexpected. Hard are the time as we had no money and I had no job.. But generally if the women as a partner she does not run off to abort. Abortion by Irish women falls really into 2 Camps. A. Women is carrying a child with disability ie. Downs or another abnormality and she aborts. B. Its used a contraception in the first 3 months. They don't want the Child as they are too young and don't have the support of a Partner. Usually if the Partner was supportive.. there would be no Crisis :-). Lets face it.. you don't hear any stories of the Partner going to England with the women when she is having the abortion.

Oldtree

Medicine333 wrote: »

Right, that's your opinion, which in my eyes is so inaccurate it's painful to read.
Marriage is not involved when two people are living together. Sorry, you're wrong.
You're the kind of person who will try to wriggle out of argument by making non-sensical statements like that due to your own bias against the Church.

Wow! I'm Wrong am I, Thanks, What a deep insight you have into the world around you. It must be great to be so absolute in your understanding of the world.

I thought you were keen on 'everyone has the right to free speech' based on your above post.

I have no bias against the church, I am simply not superstitious.

Medicine333

Oldtree wrote: »

Wow! I'm Wrong am I, Thanks, What a deep insight you have into the world around you. It must be great to be so absolute in your understanding of the world.

I thought you were keen on 'everyone has the right to free speech' based on your above post.

I have no bias against the church, I am simply not superstitious.

Look above and you will see the figures/stats posted about Irish abortions.

Whether it is I or common sense based on those stats saying you are incorrect, it is clear you are wrong.

Oldtree

thysich wrote: »

I was in a partnership with GF when she got pregnant. it was unexpected. Hard are the time as we had no money and I had no job.. But generally if the women as a partner she does not run off to abort. Abortion by Irish women falls really into 2 Camps. A. Women is carrying a child with disability ie. Downs or another abnormality and she aborts. B. Its used a contraception in the first 3 months. They don't want the Child as they are too young and don't have the support of a Partner. Usually if the Partner was supportive.. there would be no Crisis :-). Lets face it.. you don't hear any stories of the Partner going to England with the women when she is having the abortion.

I dont know enough as to the whys and wherefores to discuss that but I have heard stories of partners accompanying partners to a clinic.

Medicine333

Oldtree wrote: »

I dont know enough as to the whys and wherefores to discuss that but I have heard stories of partners accompanying partners to a clinic.

That doesn't make them a majority. Therefore, Mulherin is 100% correct regarding her comment and it's a complete over-reaction from the media.

Oldtree

Medicine333 wrote: »

Look above and you will see the figures/stats posted about Irish abortions.
Whether it is I or common sense based on those stats saying you are incorrect, it is clear you are wrong.

Goodness you do have your nickers in a twist. I dont see how you can judge my clearly stated opinion to be wrong, that would be like me saying to you that your religious beliefs are wrong!

Jim2007

Medicine333 wrote: »

This woman was voted in by people who have the right to vote. Who are you to say they were mal-informed?

Nobody is question the peoples' right to vote for the candidate of their choice, but can you show me where this candidate made her strong christian believes known to the electorate before the election, if she had it is certainly within the bounds of possibility that voters might have exercised their voting rights in a different manner.

Like I said, we'll see what happens at the next election,

thysich

Jim2007 wrote: »

Nobody is question the peoples' right to vote for the candidate of their choice, but can you show me where this candidate made her strong christian believes known to the electorate before the election, if she had it is certainly within the bounds of possibility that voters might have exercised their voting rights in a different manner.

Like I said, we'll see what happens at the next election,

In Ballina everyone knows exactly who she is.. We have no surprises this week.

She worked hard here for many years and is well liked.. And she is not the only one around here with Christian Beliefs.

At least she lives them and its always showed.. She is hard working and people who know her know that.. And it wasn't just Catholics who voted for her.