Real or Fake? P-40 found in the Sahara

Nforce

This one is causing a stir on the www ...some "pics" have appeared on a Polish modellers forum of a downed P-40 that has been discovered in the Sahara. Have a look at the pics and decide for yourself...

http://www.konradus.com/forum/read.php?f=13&i=7154&t=7154&filtr=0&page=1


Incidentally, the OP of the thread has promised more photos of the aircraft in the coming days.

Delancey

Dunno why really but I'd wager the photos are faked.

smellslikeshoes

Something does look a little off about them but maybe it's just the colour/picture quality. If it's legit, when it came down I'd guess there was more sand covering the rocks than there is currently, the rocks kind of add to the weirdness.
It all seems like an awful lot of effort to go into just to fake a few pictures.

jimbis

It actually looks like it landed on mars! :P

the_syco

Shadows often help show the fakes, and something is annoying me about picture three.

troposphere

Delancey wrote: »

Dunno why really but I'd wager the photos are faked.

+1

Dogwatch

Why is the engine behind the airframe and facing the other way. The twisting of the blades would indicate the engine is facing the right way.(IMHO)

Blue Punto

Dogwatch wrote: »

Why is the engine behind the airframe and facing the other way. The twisting of the blades would indicate the engine is facing the right way.(IMHO)

I would imagine that because the engine has bee torn off more damage to be done to the front of the airframe as the aircraft would have to be moving for this to occur.

With that in mind the engine is far too close to the airframe and the pics dont look right

Its some guy who makes models and has to much time on his hands

Im going for FAKE

stopthepanic

It's a tough one to call, bear in mind that the landscape showing in the picture may have had a lot of sand covering it at the time of crash. If those rocks were visible at the time of crash I think the whole airframe would have been ripped to shreds.

Also the aircraft's orientation may also have been adjusted due to high winds over the years.

Maybe the engine was attached or still in front when the crash finished.


I think it's fake though.

xflyer

Nicely done fake. Clearly a model or in fact a couple of models. The close up of the hatch being another. Lots of attention to detail. Obvious giveaways though are a lack of squadron codes and a serial. Dead giveaway that. Impressive though.

The engine is not depicted with the prop given that P40 is an inline water cooled engine. It's still in the cowling. I don't think that's a mistake though. I imagine the modeller used crash pictures as a basis.

Tenger

I would be suspicious as it did appear on a modelling site.

I guess the markings could have been sand blasted off over the years.
And I would expect a bit of sand to have piled up on one side due to years of wind.

Delancey

I'd bet some of the guys on the Photography forum could pull these pictures to pieces.

sparrowcar

Fake,

But can you imagine it was real and just stumbling upon it.

Nforce

Delancey wrote: »

I'd bet some of the guys on the Photography forum could pull these pictures to pieces.

The images contain no embedded exif data, but this may have occurred during post processing or deliberately to conceal the aircraft's location. Someone has taken the original shots and enhanced them with Photoshop...this is the result...






It looks waaaaay too detailed to be a model, CGI perhaps, or maybe it's the real deal!

Delancey

sparrowcar wrote: »

Fake,

But can you imagine it was real and just stumbling upon it.

+ 1

I think every aviation enthusiasts ' wet dream ' is finding an aircraft like the ' Lady Be Good '


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Be_Good_(aircraft)

BostonB

First glance it looks obviously CGI.

If its real they've done something weird to the photos. It has that filter look they do when trying to make screengrabs look real on flight sim forums.

Nforce

Someone has adjusted the levels in the cockpit shot...



It's looking like these images are of the real deal...though whether they were taken in the 1950/60's or much more recently is open to debate.

Klunk001

Just watched video footage of this aircraft on another military forum, looks real and being claimed as RAF.

Heres a link.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/483378-desert-gives-up-one-rafs-finest.html



Soon to be minus her .50 cals.

RadioRetro

Well, the roundel in one of the photos certainly shows it to be RAF. And I lived in desert as a young fella and there were only sand-drifts up against the house after a haboob (sandstorm) and they were usually blown away by gentler breezes afterwards so the lack of such here isn't unusual. It's only in deep sand where you get drifting.

Nforce

Klunk001 wrote: »

Just watched video footage of this aircraft on another military forum, looks real and being claimed as RAF.

Heres a link.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/483378-desert-gives-up-one-rafs-finest.html



Soon to be minus her .50 cals.

Well that settles that! What an amazing discovery. Hopefully it can be brought back to the UK and displayed "as is" rather than rebuilt. On a more sombre note...I wonder what was the fate of the P40's pilot?

EchoIndia

Nforce wrote: »

Hopefully it can be brought back to the UK and displayed "as is" rather than rebuilt. On a more sombre note...I wonder what was the fate of the P40's pilot?

I am a bit uneasy at the suggestion (which I have seen elsewhere) that it should be brought back to the UK (where it has probably never been before). There is surely a strong argument for preserving it in the country in which it was found. It is as much a part of their history as of the combatant countries which slugged it out on someone else's territory. I agree that it should not be rebuilt, though. To do that would be essentially to destroy much of the original aircraft shown in the video and photos.

Nforce

The reasoning for having it shipped to the UK for preservation are twofold:

1) It was operated by the RAF and is, I believe ,up until this point the only P40 to have been found relatively complete and untouched that has served in the Middle East during WWII.
2) Egypt isn't the most stable country at the moment,unfortunately, and preserving a WWII aircraft may not be high on it's Government's agenda.

lkjhgmnb

did the mustange have the merlin engine?

Delancey

lkjhgmnb wrote: »

did the mustange have the merlin engine?

Yes , although it was not manufactured by Rolls Royce who were working at full capacity . The Merlin fitted to the P 51 was made under licence by Packard in the USA ( a division of General Motors ) and something Merlin ' fans ' are reluctant to admit - the US built engine was better than that turned out by RR.

Call me a cynical ' glass-half-empty ' type but having seen those videos I remain to be convinced that P 40 find is the real deal.

Snowc

xflyer wrote: »

Nicely done fake. Clearly a model or in fact a couple of models. The close up of the hatch being another. Lots of attention to detail. Obvious giveaways though are a lack of squadron codes and a serial. Dead giveaway that. Impressive though.

The engine is not depicted with the prop given that P40 is an inline water cooled engine. It's still in the cowling. I don't think that's a mistake though. I imagine the modeller used crash pictures as a basis.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:

squonk

My first thought was what happened the pilot myself! Anyone know if his body was found with the aircraft?

Blue Punto

Loads of pics here

https://picasaweb.google.com/114682566226043469349/Zdj_samolot?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKjxkt6rkNTFKg&feat=directlink#

BostonB

The pictures of debris and close up smaller bits look real. But the plane itself when seen whole doesn't look real. Maybe its the harsh desert light, or soft filter (why) on the camera. The Panel lines in particular don't seem right.

Nforce

BostonB wrote: »

The pictures of debris and close up smaller bits look real. But the plane itself when seen whole doesn't look real. Maybe its the harsh desert light, or soft filter (why) on the camera. The Panel lines in particular don't seem right.

There was a link posted earlier in this thread by Klunk001, to these video's..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFe8CsOdoG8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9LsK74J_W0

It's real

BostonB

I know. I'm just making the point that the light is weird in the desert.

xflyer

Great that it's real. A dream find. I hope it survives it's recovery, although everyone these days knows what warbird is worth intact.

Delancey

BostonB wrote: »

The pictures of debris and close up smaller bits look real. But the plane itself when seen whole doesn't look real. Maybe its the harsh desert light, or soft filter (why) on the camera. The Panel lines in particular don't seem right.

I agree , I can't articulate it but something looks odd about it - like 2 aircraft halves stuck together ?
That it has lain undiscovered for 70 years does seem strange.

Dogwatch

Found this on Pprune
https://picasaweb.google.com/114682566226043469349/Zdj_samolot?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKjxkt6rkNTFKg&feat=directlink

Seems to be real

johnwest288

that link aint photo shopped :O

Blue Punto

Dogwatch wrote: »

Found this on Pprune
https://picasaweb.google.com/114682566226043469349/Zdj_samolot?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKjxkt6rkNTFKg&feat=directlink

Seems to be real

I posted that 6 postes above you

johnwest288

Blue Punto wrote: »

I posted that 6 postes above you

He stole your thunder



i mean your p-40

Dogwatch

Blue Punto wrote: »

I posted that 6 postes above you

Sorry missed that one. Will pay more attention in future:D:D;);):p

Nforce

All open to conjecture at this point...but the aircraft may have been ID'd

This very interesting bit of info was posted over on Hyperscale;

"On 28/6/42 ET574 Piloted by F/Sgt DCH Copping 785025 left 260 for a ferry flight to an RSU . The A/C flew with u/c locked down due to damage . An incorrect course was set and the A/C was thought to have crashed in the Desert due to fuel exhaustion.
F/Sgt Copping is listed as missing on that date
Now I'm not saying this is the A/C , just that it MIGHT be, in view of :-
a) there being no apparent signs of Battle damage
b) the fact that the U/C was wiped off in the crash"

If true,this is how the a/c would have looked in pristine condition ...

Stovepipe

Hi all,
Given the current state of Lady-be-Good,heaped up in a yard, I'm not sure I'd welcome intervention from the locals. Apart from that, during and after WW II, the locals, especially Bedus, scoured the desert for anything movable that could be sold on, especially weapons, ammunition and fuel. If there was an intact aircraft in the desert, the Bedu would know about it. There are parts of Egypt and Libya still riddled with mines and unexploded ordnance from WW II, not to mind what was shot off since.

regards
Stovepipe

Stovepipe

It was also an irony that RAF units preferred Packard Merlins, because they came with a full gasket set and often with a decent tool kit, unlike RR units. The Air Ministry insisted on a metal-to-metal seal on UK engines and wanted the same on Packards, whose builders thought it was a daft idea and usually threw in a gasket set, so that the actual field users could stop the engines from leaking oil and coolant. The Allison engine of the P-40, whilst regarded as a good engine to work on, was regarded as less tolerant of oil loss than a Merlin and field-overhauled Allisons were regarded as a menace, because of their tendency to either sieze within seconds or else catch fire within seconds from oil or coolant losses that would be tolerated by other engines.

regards
Stovepipe

Nforce

This story has finally gone mainstream with UK National newspapers and BBC/ITV coverage..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/9256879/WWII-fighter-plane-hailed-the-aviation-equivalent-of-Tutankhamuns-Tomb-found-preserved-in-the-Sahara.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2142300/Crashed-plane-Second-World-War-pilot-Dennis-Copping-discovered-Sahara-desert.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Pity it took so long, but I believe a recovery of the a/c and a search for the remains of the missing pilot may finally occur soon.

Joko

Hopefully they do a better job at recovery then these ****:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tJb-bmgBC0

BowWow

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18038650

Nforce

It's now been confirmed that this a/c was in fact ET574...as flown by Flight Sergeant Dennis Copping.

Klunk001

Looks like the pilot to this aircraft has been found approx 8k from crash site. Job well done in locating him. Closure for remaining family, may he now rest in peace.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=116221&page=36


http://www.qattara.it/60-173%20Kittyhawk.htm

johnwest288

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2143592/My-Uncle-Denis-pilot-plane-time-forgot-First-pictures-man-crash-landed-plane-Sahara-walked-sands-death.html