Writing off mortgage debt

golfwallah

liammur wrote: »

True, but you were the one who said this:

'As for blaming FF on everything, and some senior people in FF Governments do have cases to answer ...... always good to be able to blame someone, even if all the opposition during the bubble were calling for even more spending at the time'.

Again it's up to the government in power to ensure due process takes its course as regards any member of the previous government, public officials or the senior private sector people who abused power and committed criminal offences.

Progress on that front has been painfully slow up to now.

Cock ups there were aplenty,and again the government in power should be quicker to ensure negligence and recklessness (resulting in massive tax increases) while in office does not continue to be rewarded by huge pension settlements.

Blaming previous administrations will only take you so far. The honeymoon period is now well and truly over .... what we'd all like to see is "a little less conversation and a little more action".

liammur

golfwallah wrote: »

Again it's up to the government in power to ensure due process takes its course as regards any member of the previous government, public officials or the senior private sector people who abused power and committed criminal offences.

Progress on that front has been painfully slow up to now.

Cock ups there were aplenty,and again the government in power should be quicker to ensure negligence and recklessness (resulting in massive tax increases) while in office does not continue to be rewarded by huge pension settlements.

Blaming previous administrations will only take you so far. The honeymoon period is now well and truly over .... what we'd all like to see is "a little less conversation and a little more action".

I'm no supporter of this current government. They are better than FF because simply they couldn't be any worse.

The one thing I would say in their favour is, they have been left in a very, very difficult situation. Probably impossible. Similarly the governments in Spain/Greece are left in an impossible situation.

golden lane

liammur wrote: »

I'm no supporter of this current government. They are better than FF because simply they couldn't be any worse.

The one thing I would say in their favour is, they have been left in a very, very difficult situation. Probably impossible. Similarly the governments in Spain/Greece are left in an impossible situation.

yes....and they should have emohasised the difficulties they would have,,,,,and the very hard secisions that they are forced to make....

no government should tell the electorate that things are better than they really are.......

liammur

golden lane wrote: »

yes....and they should have emohasised the difficulties they would have,,,,,and the very hard secisions that they are forced to make....

no government should tell the electorate that things are better than they really are.......

Yes, dreadful PR, plus the bully boy tactics employed by the likes of Phil Hogan have turned a lot of voters off. There really is a need for a new party in the country imo.

golfwallah

liammur wrote: »

I'm no supporter of this current government. They are better than FF because simply they couldn't be any worse.

The one thing I would say in their favour is, they have been left in a very, very difficult situation. Probably impossible. Similarly the governments in Spain/Greece are left in an impossible situation.

Difficult yes, impossible NO! It's not exactly the Battle of Britain ..... there are no bombs pouring down on our heads.

Government parties looked for the job, it's now time to get it done.

But credit where credit is due. Ruairi Quinn is beginning to show a bit of courage in Education. Likewise, I think James Reilly is showing promise in Health.

Michael Noonan is making headway in Finance but has a long way to go

I'm hoping Alan Shatter can deliver in Justice & Equality and Joan Burton in Social Protection.

But Phil Hogan in Environment is just about muddling along ..... would find it difficult to give him even a pass mark based on performance so far.

Enda keeps smiling but needs to show more leadership, IMO.

As for the rest, I'm not so sure. Anyone got any views?

liammur

golfwallah wrote: »

Difficult yes, impossible NO! It's not exactly the Battle of Britain ..... there are no bombs pouring down on our heads.

Government parties looked for the job, it's now time to get it done.

But credit where credit is due. Ruairi Quinn is beginning to show a bit of courage in Education. Likewise, I think James Reilly is showing promise in Health.

Michael Noonan is making headway in Finance but has a long way to go

I'm hoping Alan Shatter can deliver in Justice & Equality and Joan Burton in Social Protection.

But Phil Hogan in Environment is just about muddling along ..... would find it difficult to give him even a pass mark based on performance so far.

Enda keeps smiling but needs to show more leadership, IMO.

As for the rest, I'm not so sure. Anyone got any views?

We are gone off on a tangent now. I would say Quinn is probably the best of them, but like the rest of them, hands are tied behind their back with Croke Park and unions etc.

golfwallah

liammur wrote: »

We are gone off on a tangent now. I would say Quinn is probably the best of them, but like the rest of them, hands are tied behind their back with Croke Park and unions etc.

Wouldn't agree with you there.

The Government have a mandate to fix the economy, period!

The Croke Park Agreement is an issue to be managed as is the situation with the unions.

Unions are not stupid .... they don't want the country to go down the toilet either.

But in the final analysis, it's up to the government to govern ..... not to fall back on excuses.

Not an easy job, but that's what leadership is all about. It's up to them to deliver on the job they were elected to do.

Blaming the previous administration, however bad they were, just won't wash with the electorate.

liammur

golfwallah wrote: »

Wouldn't agree with you there.

The Government have a mandate to fix the economy, period!

The Croke Park Agreement is an issue to be managed as is the situation with the unions.

Unions are not stupid .... they don't want the country to go down the toilet either.

But in the final analysis, it's up to the government to govern ..... not to fall back on excuses.

Not an easy job, but that's what leadership is all about. It's up to them to deliver on the job they were elected to do.

Blaming the previous administration, however bad they were, just won't wash with the electorate.

This is only a government in name. The troika are running the show. The only thing this Govt can do is get their PR right, and they are failing miserably in doing that. The electorate are full of excuses. We didn't vote for you to do this....we didn't vote to do that. Troika are in complete control, whether we like it or not.

golden lane

liammur wrote: »

Yes, dreadful PR, plus the bully boy tactics employed by the likes of Phil Hogan have turned a lot of voters off. There really is a need for a new party in the country imo.

agreed......but the people must understand that they have to be a bit cagey..or else they wont get elected..

jased10s

you are paying for a whole heap of non losing bankers profits but squabble over ones kin. They should have said no to the bankers and jailed the instigators .
No more USC and i would guess more would pay bills easier.

golfwallah

liammur wrote: »

This is only a government in name. The troika are running the show. The only thing this Govt can do is get their PR right, and they are failing miserably in doing that. The electorate are full of excuses. We didn't vote for you to do this....we didn't vote to do that. Troika are in complete control, whether we like it or not.

Wouldn't agree with you there, either.

First in the line of excuses for not being able to deliver was the previous FF government, then the CPA, then the Unions, now it's the Troika.

As I see it, the Troika's main interest is repayment of loans. To achieve this objective, and to continue with loan funding, they demanded a detailed plan from government as to how the gap between government income and expenditure would be brought down to what is considered to be manageable levels.

The detailed plan (The Memorandum of Understanding) has been agreed and has to be delivered by Government - not the Troika.

Let's be clear about this - responsibility for delivering on the MOU (soon to be voted on in the forthcoming referendum on the Stability Pact) rests with Government.

Their names are on the jerseys. It's up to them to negotiate with unions, etc .... whatever it takes to get the job done.

Not an easy job, lots of problems to be addressed along the way .... I wish them every success for the good of everyone in Ireland.

Boskowski

liammur wrote: »

This is only a government in name. The troika are running the show. The only thing this Govt can do is get their PR right, and they are failing miserably in doing that. The electorate are full of excuses. We didn't vote for you to do this....we didn't vote to do that. Troika are in complete control, whether we like it or not.

Thats stuff for the conspiracy forum tbh. Not sure why this is being trotted out, cos its a cop out.
Troika is helping to ease our adjustment period, if anything one should be grateful. They're only making sure their money is not going down the toilet since Irish politicians have a bit of a history of spilling money to ensure their reelection. Which is fair enough, any bank would do the same.

liammur

Boskowski wrote: »

Troika is helping to ease our adjustment period, if anything one should be grateful. They're only making sure their money is not going down the toilet since Irish politicians have a bit of a history of spilling money to ensure their reelection. Which is fair enough, any bank would do the same.

I agree fully, but this doesn't mean they are not running the show. They'll tell Kenny what to do, and he'll do it. They'll tell the Greek PM what to do, and guess what, he'll do it.

liammur

golfwallah wrote: »

Wouldn't agree with you there, either.

First in the line of excuses for not being able to deliver was the previous FF government, then the CPA, then the Unions, now it's the Troika.

As I see it, the Troika's main interest is repayment of loans. To achieve this objective, and to continue with loan funding, they demanded a detailed plan from government as to how the gap between government income and expenditure would be brought down to what is considered to be manageable levels.

The detailed plan (The Memorandum of Understanding) has been agreed and has to be delivered by Government - not the Troika.

Let's be clear about this - responsibility for delivering on the MOU (soon to be voted on in the forthcoming referendum on the Stability Pact) rests with Government.

Their names are on the jerseys. It's up to them to negotiate with unions, etc .... whatever it takes to get the job done.

Not an easy job, lots of problems to be addressed along the way .... I wish them every success for the good of everyone in Ireland.

No one in Ireland is capable of solving our problems, hence we have the troika.

golfwallah

liammur wrote: »

I agree fully, but this doesn't mean they are not running the show. They'll tell Kenny what to do, and he'll do it. They'll tell the Greek PM what to do, and guess what, he'll do it.

No, you've got that wrong, whatever the tabloids say.

The plan (MOU) and progress reports against it were all produced by government.

Sure, the plan has to be agreed with the Troika (same as any individual or company would have to do with a bank they were borrowing from).

But the bottom line is that it's our government's plan on how to get out of debt and get the economy up and running on a more sustainable financial basis.

The Troika are only demanding what we should be doing ourselves all along .... i.e. prudently managing our economy / living within our means.

It may be convenient to blame the Troika, the previous FF Government, the CPA, the Unions or whatever ...... but, government (and the Irish people, through austerity) are the ones who have to deliver at the end of the day.

liammur

golfwallah wrote: »

But the bottom line is that it's our government's plan on how to get out of debt and get the economy up and running on a more sustainable financial basis.

The Troika are only demanding what we should be doing ourselves all along .... i.e. prudently managing our economy / living within our means.

It may be convenient to blame the Troika, the previous FF Government, the CPA, the Unions or whatever ...... but, government (and the Irish people, through austerity) are the ones who have to deliver at the end of the day.

On the contrary it's the tabloids, joe duffy listeners, SF and bichard boy barrett etc who are blaming Enda for everything under the sun. I do agree with the above though.

golfwallah

liammur wrote: »

No one in Ireland is capable of solving our problems, hence we have the troika.

The government have put themselves forward as the people who will solve our problems.

It's up to them to deliver, regardless of the electoral consequences.

Asked a question on this issue, after a bad reception at the Teachers' Union Conference, Ruairi Quinn said the Government was determined to deliver on the terms of the MOU, whether this was detrimental electorally or not.

As they say, the jury is still out on this for now, but it looks like government has a lot of tricky wickets to deal with in the national interest, such as re-negotiating the CPA, cutting costs for a lot of other sacred cows, mortgage write downs, etc.

golfwallah

liammur wrote: »

On the contrary it's the tabloids, joe duffy listeners, SF and bichard boy barrett etc who are blaming Enda for everything under the sun. I do agree with the above though.

All of the above are just noise in the system.

Not easy and Enda still has to deliver, whatever these folk say.

K-9

golfwallah wrote: »

No, you've got that wrong, whatever the tabloids say.

The plan (MOU) and progress reports against it were all produced by government.

Sure, the plan has to be agreed with the Troika (same as any individual or company would have to do with a bank they were borrowing from).

But the bottom line is that it's our government's plan on how to get out of debt and get the economy up and running on a more sustainable financial basis.

The Troika are only demanding what we should be doing ourselves all along .... i.e. prudently managing our economy / living within our means.

It may be convenient to blame the Troika, the previous FF Government, the CPA, the Unions or whatever ...... but, government (and the Irish people, through austerity) are the ones who have to deliver at the end of the day.

Indeed, FF had more or less came up with the plan in their 5 year economic plan, before the Troika came in. The Troika haven't insisted on much extra from that. The main difference is the quarterly reviews of performance.

liammur

golfwallah wrote: »

The government have put themselves forward as the people who will solve our problems.

It's up to them to deliver, regardless of the electoral consequences.

Asked a question on this issue, after a bad reception at the Teachers' Union Conference, Ruairi Quinn said the Government was determined to deliver on the terms of the MOU, whether this was detrimental electorally or not.

As they say, the jury is still out on this for now, but it looks like government has a lot of tricky wickets to deal with in the national interest, such as re-negotiating the CPA, cutting costs for a lot of other sacred cows, mortgage write downs, etc.

As you correctly point out it will be tricky and I wish them well. Hopefully the unions/media etc will play their part. A little bit of common sense wouldn't go astray either i.e. slash the likes of bertie ahern's pensions and expenses, slash td's expenses. They have to be seen as fair, and up to now I can't say they have been.

liammur

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, FF had more or less came up with the plan in their 5 year economic plan, before the Troika came in. The Troika haven't insisted on much extra from that. The main difference is the quarterly reviews of performance.

Do we actually know for sure when the troika came in ? !

K-9

liammur wrote: »

Do we actually know for sure when the troika came in ? !

Probably when Roche et al were dragged out to deny they were here!

liammur

K-9 wrote: »

Probably when Roche et al were dragged out to deny they were here!

I must check it again, I think I read it in Matt Cooper's book that it was possibly in the summer. I'll let you know if I come across it.

skafish

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Those write downs were going to happen. We have already seen it with the major developers. Whether people are bankrupted or not people are not capable of paying back the full amount.
More pay cuts in public service could now be a possibility given that debt is being written off.

And will the public servants, most of who are on normal wages, and have already taken a cut of up to 15% in their income (not including loss of overtime etc) be included in this massive handout?

Monty Burnz

jased10s wrote: »

you are paying for a whole heap of non losing bankers profits but squabble over ones kin. They should have said no to the bankers and jailed the instigators .
No more USC and i would guess more would pay bills easier.

What what what?

Monty Burnz

skafish wrote: »

And will the public servants, most of who are on normal wages, and have already taken a cut of up to 15% in their income (not including loss of overtime etc) be included in this massive handout?

Probably not. The PS will also be screwed over to save those who made suicidal buying decisions.

K-9

liammur wrote: »

I must check it again, I think I read it in Matt Cooper's book that it was possibly in the summer. I'll let you know if I come across it.

I'd say they had an idea the IMF was knocking on the door, put it that way.

Trying to get back in some way on topic, to me whether the Troika are here is largely redundant. Any Government would have to bring in a broadly similar agenda. I do smile at the "slash PS pay advocates" who thought the IMF would be the answer to their prayers.

To bring it back fully on topic, the IMF approved a mortgage debt forgiveness programme in Latvia. Used to be in my bookmarks but I lost it when Vista packed in. So the IMF has no moral objection to a mortgage debt write down, the size of it would be their worry, naturally!

jmayo

moycullen14 wrote: »

You are assuming that I have been suckered in? Why, is it not possible for someone to take an objective, unbiased view on this mess, without trying to validate their past decisions?

I think Morgan Kelly did a study on 20+ bubbles (most of them property) and they all seem to follow the same path. Tell me, if the taxonomy of a bubble is so well know, why is there ever another one? Surely (sorry for calling you that), people will see it and react accordingly? I'll tell you why, it's because a bubble isn't a bubble until it bursts. It's the bursting that makes it a bubble.

If it walks like a duck and qacks like a duck then I always reckon it is a fooking duck.
Lots of people spot bubbles.
Of course these people are often ignored because it doesn't fit in with the public mood or the desires of people to get rich quickly like their neighbours.

I reckon it is actually quiet easy to spot a bubble.
To me it is usually when the price of something rises to a totally unsustainable level that is totally out of kilter with the norm.
When the normal buyers of something can no longer afford it then something fundamentally has changed.

moycullen14 wrote: »

...
That said, I'm constantly amused at the number of people who crop up on these threads to say they knew twould all end in tears. 'I decided not to buy and put myself in debt servitude. I could see that it was a bubble. I'm waiting until prices are affordable yada, yada, yada'

If you're so perspicacious, tell us how the next five years are going to play out?

It didn't take a rocket scientist to spot that apartments in rural areas with no infrastructure and no long term sustainable jobs should not be selling for 5/6 times average salary.
Likewaise the fact that a terraced 2 up 2 down house in working class area of Dublin should not be selling for 8-10 times average industrial wage.

Likewise now it doesn't take a brain surgeon to see we are in a major slump, with even more cuts and taxes increases on the way.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Regardless of whether it was more or less expensive, you would think that it would merit some mention in an article about how much it costs 'to keep a roof over your head'. But no, not a sausage. Second class citizens.

Hell some in this country would like to implement the old voting system that was used in Northern Ireland which would guarantee only property owners would have the right to vote.

buddhababe wrote: »

I have been wondering about this debt forgiveness thing... can anyone advise me.... bought hse for 192k in 2005 ... Took out 60k top up in 07 .... At present I owe 212k to ebs and 50 to credit union.... have 4k credit card .... I have never missed a payment on mortgage or cu but I have nothing to live on... after debts are met I have 30 euro a week.... my husband covers household bills.... he also pays 120 a week on loans... we just had baby and are really really struggling.... so will they forgive the mortgages only in arrears or Wud they look at the whole picture?? Do I stop paying mortgage!?!

Can you tell us why you had to get a 30% top up two years after you got the mortgage ?
What loans does your husband have extra ?

Please do not expect me and my family to pay for your house. :mad:
I have kids too btw.

liammur wrote: »

I would advise you to contact New Beginnings. Paying massive debts now is just silly, plain and simple. The banks' books have been written down for the likes of you, I would be giving back the keys if I were trapped in serious neg equity

You have some fooking neck to tell people to dump their debt on others. :mad:
Are you on the receiving end of the taxpayer funds and not on the side that has to pony up.? :rolleyes:
If this lady owes money to EBS then when that is not paid it is me, my family and the families of all the taxpayers of this country that suffer.
Who do you think carries the writedowns of all this debt ?

liammur wrote: »

That is true, but the central bank today claim house prices are undervalued by 26%. So handing back keys is a gamble for both parties. I think it's ridiculous holding people to big mortgages against their wishes. There is no money in the economy as a result.

And there will be even less money in the economy when taxpayers and people actaully paying their mortgages and other debts are squezzed even further to pay for the fookers who can't be bothered trying to repay their debts. :mad:

oh and that Central Bank report is bull****.
Are prices down to what they were when the Irish house prices started increasing into what became a total bubble ?
Most of the asking prices still visible on any of the property websites are for the majority of cases totally unrealistic and there is nothing to indicate that property prices are not going to fall further.
One guy last night did mention that there would be drops for at least the next couple of years.

liammur wrote: »

Yes, dreadful PR, plus the bully boy tactics employed by the likes of Phil Hogan have turned a lot of voters off. There really is a need for a new party in the country imo.

A necessary new party of this state would be far right.
A party that would end the fooking sense of entitlement that people in this country have and for once fight for the rights of those who are the ones coughing up for the entitled brigade.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Probably not. The PS will also be screwed over to save those who made suicidal buying decisions.

A lot of the public sector were the ones doing the suicidal buying.

golfwallah

It seems the banks are being chased to become more pro-active in dealing with mortgage arrears - and about time too.

Looks like they have not been doing enough to prevent arrears from growing (loans in arrears of 90 days or more have grown from 49,609 to 77,630 in the 12 months since March 2011) and are now being directed to “get the finger out” by the new Director of Credit Institutions and Insurance Supervision at the Central Bank, Fiona Muldoon: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0608/1224317494737.html

Ms. Muldoon also warned that it is not possible to say whether or not the banks need more capital, until they deal with their mortgage arrears and property prices stop falling: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0608/1224317500843.html

I’d prefer to see this pro-active approach being tried before rushing in legislation that puts more costs on the taxpayer.

AltAccount

When you say they are "to become more proactive in dealing with mortgage arrears", what are the suggested options exactly?