Abortion

philologos

bluewolf wrote: »

are you going to be honest and say yes washing your hands is killing

Killing bacteria. Certainly . That's the point of why people wash their hands isn't it? It's better to kill bacteria than not to.

Not killing human life, which comes into a whole different category. Human life is clearly a whole lot more valuable than bacteria. Surely I don't need to get into an argument as to why we treat humanity as distinct from bacteria?

nozzferrahhtoo

philologos wrote: »

Human life is clearly a whole lot more valuable than bacteria.

To us. No one else. If you can figure out why that is you will figure out why abortion before certain cut offs is hard to declare immoral. That is, of course, without making up gods and the like to get you there which you yourself do with impunity.

christina_x

I think it should be allowed but should NOT be covered by the medical card. The high cost should hopefully prevent it becoming a method of contraception, but it's still an available service if a woman requires it.

shannie

dogyworld1 wrote: »

So your telling me if your misses
got raped
by a black fella
and fell pregnant
youd keep the baby?

Nope? I clearly said in some cases like rape it would be a last resort if she fell pregnant.

whatdoicare

I never really understood this "I'm against abortions so no one should have access to abortions" attitude.

If someone wants or needs an abortion it's no-ones business but their own. It won't affect you in any way shape or form.

It's just like that thread before about parents, neighbours and friends hassling young couples to start their families without knowing if they actually want children, are struggling to have them or have gone through some serious miscarriages. It's intrusive and ignorant.

Why does everyone feel that they have the right to have a say in anyones private life.

What a couple, a woman or a rape victim decide is their decision and nothing to do with anyone else. Noone is going to be birthing or raising the child for them - the parents/woman/victim will be the one left with all the consequences.


Also - just to be sure everyone understands where I'm coming from - I love children and my husband and I are finally making the leap towards parenthood.

TLDR If you don't want an abortion don't have one.

PrincessLola

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I know quite a few women with that attitude here in the UK. Not quite as flippant, obviously, but most definitely with the idea that they can be lax with contraception because they can always have an abortion. I mean, really, with access to contraception being so widespread and free, unplanned pregnancies shouldn't be anywhere near as common as they are. I know a girl who relies on condoms because the pill makes her put on a few pounds. She already had an abortion last year because the condom broke and yet she still refuses to look into more reliable methods of contraception. If she thought she'd be raising a child for 18 years, you can bet she'd be more responsible in her choices.

I'm actually frightened by how lightly a lot of women here seem to take sex and abortions. I wouldn't want it to be like in Ireland, but I couldn't imagine ever thinking an abortion was better than getting a bit fat or better than using a condom during sex. People are very easy on themselves here. Not that I see abortion as a punishment for having sex, not at all, but a lot of people are just immature and irresponsible. One night stands without contraception? What do you expect to happen? My friends back in Ireland are a lot more responsible and I don't doubt for one minute that it's because they don't have the safety net of an abortion clinic nearby.

I still think abortion should be legal but I wish it would go hand-in-hand with better sex education.

oh god
no
stop

I don't understand your post, You think abortion should be legal, yet at the same time you are harshly judging women you know in England for controlling their own bodies and reproduction? So her condom broke, IT HAPPENS SOMETIMES, and the pill can fail too. Some women have bad reactions to the hormones in the pill or have conditions that make it dangerous for them to take it.

And people do already get sex education, but what kind of education are you talking about here? Abstinence? What education?

If you are so-called pro-choice, than you have to accept that it is women's choice over their own bodies and you should probably not make slut shaming insinuations about 'needing more education' and 'lax attitudes to contraception'

No woman enjoys an abortion, nor does it in such a casual way as you are describing.

Abortion 'hand in hand with sex education'? By sex education I'm guessing you mean telling women to close their legs and that their baby is a person at conception and maybe make them do an ultrasound too like in the states.

Blue_Seas

Agree with a lot of people. Why should you decide that someone else can't have an abortion?

Also, if a woman falls pregnant, why is she obligated to keep the fetus? Just because she has a uterus that houses it? If this was any other circumstance where something was binded to an adult, the adult should be able to make the decision whether they want to keep it or not.

IzzyWizzy

PrincessLola wrote: »

oh god
no
stop

I don't understand your post, You think abortion should be legal, yet at the same time you are harshly judging women you know in England for controlling their own bodies and reproduction? So her condom broke, IT HAPPENS SOMETIMES, and the pill can fail too. Some women have bad reactions to the hormones in the pill or have conditions that make it dangerous for them to take it.

And people do already get sex education, but what kind of education are you talking about here? Abstinence? What education?

If you are so-called pro-choice, than you have to accept that it is women's choice over their own bodies and you should probably not make slut shaming insinuations about 'needing more education' and 'lax attitudes to contraception'

No woman enjoys an abortion, nor does it in such a casual way as you are describing.

Abortion 'hand in hand with sex education'? By sex education I'm guessing you mean telling women to close their legs and that their baby is a person at conception and maybe make them do an ultrasound too like in the states.

More like you won't understand my post because I don't agree with you. If you actually read what I wrote, you would see that my opinion on abortion is pretty damn moderate. Tell me where I wrote that abortions should be restricted or not allowed?

I know condoms break. I know that condoms break fairly often and that once it breaks, there's a very high chance of pregnancy which is why I've never relied on them as my primary method of contraception. I have a bad reaction to the pill, I nearly had a stroke (makes putting on a few pounds seem very trivial in comparison) and had to wait quite a while to find a method of contraception that works for me. You know what I did in the meantime? I didn't have sex. Shocking, huh? Not because I'm some sort of martyr. Because a few months without sex is nothing compared to having an abortion or raising a kid. I could still do 'everything else' and once I got contraception sorted (a hormonal method plus condoms), I went back to enjoying a full sex life. It's not rocket science. It's called taking responsibility for your actions.

If people are having unprotected casual sex without even thinking about STI's, don't know how to use condoms, think that the chances of pregnancy are something like 1 in 20 per sexual encounter, think that putting on a few pounds is worse than having an abortion (these are attitudes from women I know - educated, middle class, intelligent women), then yes, I would suggest that sex education is failing in some way. I'm sorry you find that so controversial. If you think that reasons like "I thought about using a condom but it feels better without and I thought it wasn't my fertile time" and "There was nowhere near my house to get the morning after pill so I chanced it" aren't alarmingly casual, then I don't know what to say to you.

I'd like to to explain why the abortion rate is so high when using reliable contraception is so incredibly easy, if you think people aren't being lax about it?

I am pro choice. It just makes me sad that so many abortions are completely preventable. Not by not having sex, but by understanding how conception works and using proper contraception. Do you live in the UK? Do you know quite a lot of women who have had terminations? What are you basing this 'nobody takes abortion lightly' opinion on?

Your 'slutshaming' accusations are just silly and dramatic, as is insinuating that I think abstinence is the long-term solution to the abortion issue - typical pro-choice babble.

OldNotWIse

Medusa22 wrote: »

I'm quoting, so you won't get distracted. Don't you think that it should be decided by the person who is pregnant whether or not they decide to have a child that is going to have a short and painful life? This is for the sake of the child and the parent. It is barbaric not to give a woman that choice. In Ireland a woman has to continue a pregnancy even if the foetus has severe defects. What if a woman is raped and is suffering severe psychological trauma, should she be forced to have the child? I think that abortion should be legal for all women who wish to have one, regardless of the reasons. However, there are plenty of legitimate reasons why a person may need to have an abortion, as listed above. Contraception is extremely important and should ideally prevent unwanted pregnancies but there are plenty of people who just don't bother to use it. If a person is in a situation where they realise that they are not capable of raising a child, both emotionally and financially, they should have the option of aborting that foetus. I really do believe that is the best decision for the foetus.

quoting so I wont get distracted? Aw come on now do we really feel the need to resort to insults?

In response to your post, I know all about the caveats. They certainly do not fall under the umbrella of "socio economic" reasons for extinguishing the life of the unborn. They are wheeled out time and time again in these arguments, as if the majority of abortions are carried out for these reasons, and not for socio economic reasons.

OldNotWIse

PrincessLola wrote: »

"Lets have unprotected sex, I can always use abortion as a contraceptive"- Said no woman ever.

Its not really about "killing" the child for the pro-lifers, is it?

Think about it, if parents were travelling abroad to have their four year old child killed by a contract killer the government would have them charged with murder.
Pro-lifers don't advocate having women who get abortions charged with murder, they just want to stop acess to abortion, therefore they can't really see it the same as murder, they want to punish people for having sex.

lol

OldNotWIse

bluewolf wrote: »

are you going to be honest and say yes washing your hands is killing

posts like this are a good case for a "confused" button beside the like...

Explain please

philologos

^^ She's right, but she didn't think I would clearly admit that it was killing (bacteria) :pac:

OldNotWIse

philologos wrote: »

^^ She's right, but she didn't think I would clearly admit that it was killing (bacteria) :pac:

Better wash my hands now so...dont want a nasty surprise in nine months when those damn e.coli germs somehow turn into another human being :rolleyes:

Medusa22

OldNotWIse wrote: »

quoting so I wont get distracted? Aw come on now do we really feel the need to resort to insults?

In response to your post, I know all about the caveats. They certainly do not fall under the umbrella of "socio economic" reasons for extinguishing the life of the unborn. They are wheeled out time and time again in these arguments, as if the majority of abortions are carried out for these reasons, and not for socio economic reasons.

Unfortunately you didn't respond to my post at all, you couldn't give me one good reason why people shouldn't be allowed to abort in those situations. That says enough for me.

king_of_inismac

I'm very much a left-wing liberal but I'd probably be anti-abortion. Let me also say I'm not religious in the slightest.

For me, following conception, I believe the feotus is a human being and therefore should be given the appropriate rights and protection. It should be given the same rights as the mother - no more or no less.

Some people argue "it's not your body so it's none of your business" and I can understand that. But if I consider it the death of a child, maybe you could understand my concern?

Others say it should be an individuals choice, but society often regulates individuals choice for the good of society in general (e.g. Speed limits on roads).

OldNotWIse

Medusa22 wrote: »

Unfortunately you didn't respond to my post at all, you couldn't give me one good reason why people shouldn't be allowed to abort in those situations. That says enough for me.

I never said people in those situations should not be allowed access to terminations actually - why would I need to justify an argument that I did not make in the first place?

My name is URL

They should be mandatory for some people

OldNotWIse

king_of_inismac wrote: »

I'm very much a left-wing liberal but I'd probably be anti-abortion. Let me also say I'm not religious in the slightest.

For me, following conception, I believe the feotus is a human being and therefore should be given the appropriate rights and protection. It should be given the same rights as the mother - no more or no less.

Some people argue "it's not your body so it's none of your business" and I can understand that. But if I consider it the death of a child, maybe you could understand my concern?

Others say it should be an individuals choice, but society often regulates individuals choice for the good of society in general (e.g. Speed limits on roads).

I agree. The argument of "choice" is not really relevant in deciding if something is right or wrong. I could argue I should have the choice to commit arson or sell drugs or anything else that is wrong in the eyes of the law. A sense of entitlement to choose to do something does not necessarily make that thing morally or legally "right". If that was the case we'd be here all day making legal history undoing the law to pander to the "entitlement" brigade.

PrincessLola

king_of_inismac wrote: »

I'm very much a left-wing liberal but I'd probably be anti-abortion. Let me also say I'm not religious in the slightest.

For me, following conception, I believe the feotus is a human being and therefore should be given the appropriate rights and protection. It should be given the same rights as the mother - no more or no less.

Some people argue "it's not your body so it's none of your business" and I can understand that. But if I consider it the death of a child, maybe you could understand my concern?

Others say it should be an individuals choice, but society often regulates individuals choice for the good of society in general (e.g. Speed limits on roads).

Nope.
Nice try, but I actually give more f*cks about the mother who has to carry the baby to term than I do about your 'concern'

"Same rights as the mother"? You'd think that even if she was a rape victim?

You know what I did in the meantime? I didn't have sex. Shocking, huh? Not because I'm some sort of martyr. Because a few months without sex is nothing compared to having an abortion or raising a kid. I could still do 'everything else' and once I got contraception sorted (a hormonal method plus condoms), I went back to enjoying a full sex life. It's not rocket science. It's called taking responsibility for your actions.

"taking responsibility for your actions" You'd think all pregnancies were somehow conceived by the mother alone by
the tone of your argument.

I think your argument, which primarily boils down to "how can these stupid women get pregnant when contraception is so reliable" is flawed and not taking into account experiences outside of your own personal bubble. Its not always reliable, even the pill can have devastating consequences for the emotional health of some women. Things don't always work out like you expect them to, and telling people to practise abstinence (like they did to teenagers in the USA) DOESN'T WORK.

If you are so pro-choice, than why are you also so ant-abortion? Do you honestly believe that the fetus at conception is a baby?
And what you are doing is slutshaming BTW, deal with it.

Medusa22

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I never said people in those situations should not be allowed access to terminations actually - why would I need to justify an argument that I did not make in the first place?

There is no alternative to your argument then, you must be admitting that terminations are acceptable in those situations?

nozzferrahhtoo

king_of_inismac wrote: »

It should be given the same rights as the mother - no more or no less.

We do not even give 10 year olds "The same rights no more or no less" than we do to a mother. They do not have the right to vote or buy and consume alcohol for example. So your statement is ridiculous even off the bat.

However I see no reason to arbitrarily pick conception as a dividing point between rights and no rights so you will have to adumbrate your thinking on that one for me.

ZombieBride

I think everyone should be forced to have abortions.. even those who aren't pregnant... and men.


Oh wait.. it's none of my damn business what someone else does with their body.

JupiterKid

It's amazing and a tad depressing that in the year 2012 this debate is still raging and abortion remains illegal in this country.

PrincessLola

JupiterKid wrote: »

It's amazing and a tad depressing that in the year 2012 this debate is still raging and abortion remains illegal in this country.

I was looking at a world map which highlighted where abortion is legal today, and it looks like Ireland is basically the only Western world country where it is still totally illegal (except in the cases of the mother's life is in danger, but that's never happened)

ZombieBride

PrincessLola wrote: »

I was looking at a world map which highlighted where abortion is legal today, and it looks like Ireland is basically the only Western world country where it is still totally illegal (except in the cases of the mother's life is in danger, but that's never happened)

Just looked this up http://www.pregnantpause.org/lex/world02map.htm :eek:

JupiterKid

Looking at that map is shows that Ireland is in the same league as Afghanistan, Burma, Nicaragua and Saudi Arabia. Wonderful stuff to be so proud of.

Even Iran is ahead of Ireland in terms of its abortion laws.

PrincessLola

ZombieBride wrote: »

Just looked this up http://www.pregnantpause.org/lex/world02map.htm :eek:

That map. Seriously. F*ck this country.
We have no right to be smug about the conservative US when we are the only first world country that doesn't allow abortion in cases of rape.

PrincessLola

PrincessLola wrote: »

That map. Seriously. F*ck this country.
We have no right to be smug about the conservative US when we are the only first world country that doesn't allow abortion in cases of rape.

Well the "except in cases of rape" line is the most morally questionable one in my opinion.

You either think that it's murder or it isn't - how can someone think it's murder in some cases but not in others?? Surely if it is an innocent baby, the circumstances of it's conception are irrelevant.

PrincessLola

true-or-false wrote: »

Well the "except in cases of rape" line is the most morally questionable one in my opinion.

You either think that it's murder or it isn't - how can someone think it's murder in some cases but not in others?? Surely if it is an innocent baby, the circumstances of it's conception are irrelevant.

I actually don't think its an innocent baby. Its not a baby at all

But in terms of mother's welfare, its probably more traumatic carrying a rapist's 'baby' to term than a 'baby' that has been conceived with consent.

coffee_cake

philologos wrote: »

Not killing human life, which comes into a whole different category.

The whole point of the argument is that prochoicers think it's all different categories even within "human" and "life"
which is why "be honest it's killing" gets you exactly nowhere

washing your hands can kill human skin cells
human, life
so again, not as simple as "just admit it's killing"