The Rafa Benitez debate

Morricone

Seen as ntlbell seems so hell bent on having a discussion on Rafa, why not have one.

How good was Rafa? Was he tactically inept or a tactical genius. Did he get the best out of his players like Jamie Carragher or was it the case that he han't a clue and could he not see that Gerrard's best position was centre mid?

Did he buy well or were Alonso, Mascherano, Lucas, Torres, Agger, Pepe Reina exceptions to the rule that he bought shíte players.

Was he a manager who could win a couple of cup games but couldn't cut it in the league? If yes then how come he's the only manager to win a La Liga in the last 10 years with a club not named Barcelona or Real Madrid?

What about his time at Inter. Was he unlucky that he took over an aging team with no investment or was he simply exposed.

And finally, why does Benitez divide opinion so much? Why do fans not of Liverpool in England often seem to deride the man and his achievements when he has been one of the most successful managers in Europe in the last 13 years?

Blatter

G.K.

One of the most unappreciated managers of modern times.

Redzer7

Dont be at yourself

I've massive respect for him, as a manager and as a man.

His achievements at Valencia stand up to any scrutiny.

His time at Liverpool is much more divisive, but the intervening time has surely painted it in a better light. He was working under crazy conditions and the question people should be asking isn't 'How didn't he win the league?', it's 'How did he keep us competitive for so long?'.

He undoubtedly has flaws and blind spots, but the charge leveled at him the most - that he was poor in the transfer market - isn't so clear-cut. More good buys than bad, on a shoe-string sell-to-buy budget and a tonne of political maneuvering behind the scenes.

I'm not sure if a top club will take a chance on him, but I've no doubt he's capable. Wouldn't be surprised to see him at Madrid, or perhaps back to Valencia. I'd take him back at Liverpool if the position came available.

ShamoBuc

I'd have him back next season, no problem at all.

Hank Scorpio

What do you think Bamboozling?

missingtime

I miss Rafa.

bucketybuck

I had never rated Rafa to be honest, my abiding memory of him is probably my glee at watching his "Facts" rant against Fergie, as I knew then that United were going to win the league.

It has to be said though, a fantastic argument for his quality was made in the Gerrard thread, showing Rafa as the only manager to have the tactical awareness of how to handle Gerrard positionally.

Handsome Bob

It seems that we're travelling back in time. Rafa debates...Gerrard's best position....ntlbell. Good times.

Yeah.

kitakyushu

darced

This post has been deleted.

Moneymaker

The constant popcorn pictures anytime a controversial thread is made do my 'kin head in.

Paully D

Excellent manager overall.

Any manager who wins 2 La Liga's and a UEFA Cup, along with a Champions League, FA Cup and a few other domestic trophies, along with getting to a further Champions League final and finishing 2nd in the Premier League with a points total that would have won it any other year can't be anything other than an excellent manager.

He cared too much about off the field issues coming to the end of his time at Liverpool, but to me that shows how much of a decent fella he is rather than a bad manager.

Personally I wouldn't read too much into his time at Inter as most clubs tend to struggle after Mourinho such is the bond he creates with his players. Some players were pictured crying when he left FFS. I don't think anyone could have walked in there and got them going after that, especially considering they'd won all they wanted to win. Look at how poorly they've done under a couple of other managers since.

It's a shame to see him creating websites and doing punditry work as he deserves a decent job at a top club. Whoever gets him in will end up being better off for it IMO.

Red Crow

He did well at Valenica albeit with a very good young team Ayala, Vicente, Albelda, Baraja, Aimar etc that had reached the Champions League Final the year before. He won the league in his first year but finished 5th the year after. But came back to win the league and the UEFA Cup.

That Valencia team should of won a Champions League (Under Cuper). It was a very strong team but he won two titles and the UEFA Cup in his time there. He was a succcesful manager but at Valencia it was expected, maybe too strong of a word, at the time due to the talent and the "success" under Cuper. I still think it was an amazing achievement as he won their first title in 30~ years.

At Liverpool I think you have to say it was disappointing. He won the Champions League with a poor side which was a great achievement but his performance in the league was poor.

He didn't really get a handle of things at Inter. They took some slide and many players under-performed for him or just didn't respong to his management style. But I think a lot of the fault there lies with the players.

I think you can say Benitez was a very good manager. A man doesn't win two league titles (first division), the FA Cup, the Champions League and the UEFA Cup by being average. He most certainly is a very good manager.

LFC5Times

Legend

He got the what Liverpool FC was about and he was Spanish, there would be so many English managers out there who wouldn't get what Liverpool FC - the club, the tradition, the supporters was about. He got it though

Some people never got him, some Liverpool fans hadn't a clue - listened to everything bad the media said about him and the way they paint things.

His net spend in 5 seasons was around £90m - he left a squad of players with serious value in the transfer market. He nearly always had to sell to buy. When he came to the club United where miles ahead of us as a squad and team and then Chelsea started investing serious cash. I always felt that we needed a bit more cash to invest to be level with them.

A good few of his transfer targets where never got because of Parry d1cking around and going at a snails pace. He was promised money to sign David Silva by H&G and then they pulled the money on that. City signed him a season or two later.

He was the first to alert the fans to what Hicks & Gillett were really like when after the 2007 CL Final in a press conference he talked about how we needed money now and that all we did was talk and talk and talk about signing players but nothing happened.
People really underestimate his role in exposing Hicks & Gillett.

He made Carragher into the brilliant centre back he was for those few seasons.
He made Gerrard a better player and we seen Gerrard played his best football in those seasons.

The hammerings we gave Real Madrid and United, the beating of Barcelona over the two legs. Istanbul obviously, the FA Cup in '06 - some of the best memories as a Liverpool fan.

He had Fergie rattled in the 08/09 season, sure Fergie only the other day called him a clown. When Fergie is scared of someone or another team he slags them off. He is great mates with Wenger now because he doesn't fear Arsenal. When he used to fear Arsenal he was always slagging Wenger off.
His FACTS press conference - everything he said in it was right. Its still right - Fergie runs the FA and will until he retires.

Unfortunately trying to fight two battles - on the pitch and in the boardroom got too much.He should never of had to had to deal with the owners. If he had the owners we had now it would of been great.

Wanting to sign a new centre back that would of put pressure on Carraghers position and not offering him a contract extension on 90k was probably the straw that broke the camels back. Carragher didn't like this idea and ganged up with Purslow to badmouth him to the press and others.
Eventually they got their wish and got rid of Benitez and soon after Carragher got a contract extension from Purslow the day before the club was sold on his 90k. Of course the new owners wouldn't of approved of giving a player on his way out and of his age a contract extension on that much of a wage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OHC7lIfvk4

elefant

I'd like to see him back at Valencia when Unai Emery is inevitably sacked. He won a Spanish league, UEFA Cup and European Super Cup with friggin' Mista! as the key striker. Top manager.

Liam O

Great tactician, spent poorly though largely. Massive turnover of players who he would sign for silly fees and flog them off the next season.

PhlegmyMoses

Benitez would probably be an excellent manager for a club where there is not much interference from a board level and he had decent sums to spend.

He is a very good tactician, which is his biggest asset. He is a student of the game and is very meticulous in his preparations for games. You can even see this now on his website where his tactical analyses are top notch.

He was hit and miss in the transfer market and probably needed to broaden his horizons past Spain. I'm going to have to say that he wasn't the best at this as the Keane saga was really badly handled and indicative of his scattergun approach to buying players.

Hard to say how good of a man manager he is but there are lot of reports of players finding him cold and handled the Alonso situation poorly. Seemed to get the best out of Gerrard and Torres, though.

He is not known for bringing youth through. The core of his Valencia team was largely unchanged from that of Cuper's Valencia when Benitez went to Liverpool. He also did not seem to have much of an interest in playing youth team players for Liverpool.

His handling of the press and politics of the game was pretty poor as well. Even forgetting his "facts", he often tried to be clever and be coy and evasive when questioned about dubious decisions or the inner workings of Liverpool or later an Inter where he went into self-destruct mode and regularly criticised Moratti. I know he is entitled to do this but throwing the press a bone here and there gets you through some of the tougher periods relatively unscathed. Ask Harry Redknapp.

All in all, I think Benitez is a good manager and given the right circumstances, could do very well at a top club. He does come with baggage, however.

Dubit10

Anyone who thinks he was'nt one of the top managers in world football knows nothing about the game. Would have him back next season in a flash as we have proper owners unlike the last clowns who he had to fight on a daily basis.

PhlegmyMoses

LFC5Times wrote: »

Loads of misty-eyed nonsense

So much of this has no basis in fact and cannot be backed up at all. "Got" the Liverpool traditions? Had Fergie rattled? Other Liverpool fans didn't get him? as though only a select few were in on the secret? Ridiculous.

Will I Amnt

LFC5Times wrote: »

Legend

He got the what Liverpool FC was about and he was Spanish, there would be so many English managers out there who wouldn't get what Liverpool FC - the club, the tradition, the supporters was about. He got it though

What is there to get about LFC that's any different to other successful clubs???
For what it's worth I rate him fairly highly as a manager.

Guy:Incognito

Do you not know? Doesnt matter than you win leagues and european trophies, if you have an unsuccessfull and short stint at the next one, your ****e.

LFC5Times

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

So much of this has no basis in fact and cannot be backed up at all. "Got" the Liverpool traditions? Had Fergie rattled? Other Liverpool fans didn't get him? as though only a select few were in on the secret? Ridiculous.

I said some Liverpool fans didn't get him - are you one of them or just a Manc on a wind-up?

G.K.

Liam O wrote: »

Great tactician, spent poorly though largely. Massive turnover of players who he would sign for silly fees and flog them off the next season.

I would disagree, he made a profit on most of the fringe players he sold on. When he got money to spend big, he got those transfers right almost always, and look at the players he got right... Torres, Reina, Alonso, Mascherano, Garcia, Lucas....

LFC5Times

Good to see the Manc supporters as obsessed as ever with Liverpool

PhlegmyMoses

LFC5Times wrote: »

I said some Liverpool fans didn't get him - are you one of them or just a Manc on a wind-up?

Look, if you want to deify a decent manager and paint him to be some kind of Christ-like figure who was sacrificed for the sins of others - the media, H+G - then have at it.

And I'm not a Manc, I'm a Dub.

Will I Amnt

LFC5Times wrote: »

Good to see the Manc supporters as obsessed as ever with Liverpool

Cop yourself on,if you don't want your points questioned then keep them to yourself,mine was a genuine question if you would care to answer it.

IncognitoMan

I'd say there is few managers in the world who are better at beating superior teams over 2 legs. So he can't be that bad tactically. Also I don't believe liverpool have improved since his departure, quite the opposite actually.

Glico Man

Liam O wrote: »

Great tactician, spent poorly though largely. Massive turnover of players who he would sign for silly fees and flog them off the next season.

I would agree with the player turnover, however the only player I would see signed for a silly fee and flogged off would be Keane. Other than himself and Babel (and Aquilani), when Rafa spent big he more often than not got it right.

Most players he bought have subsequently been moved on for more than what they were signed for bar Mascherano who left for the same amount as was purchased. Others he'd signed are worth more than what we paid; Reina, Lucas, Agger, Skrtel for example are worth at the very least double what was paid for them. Well ok, maybe Skittles isn't worth £12 million, but he'd certainly be sold for profit.

Rafa has also left a legacy at Liverpool with the complete rebuild of our youth set up. Will be a few years before we bear the fruit of his and the coaches (Borrell, Segura) work, but he will be remembered for bringing it up to a far higher standard than what it was

Kingdom

Any LFC fan that doesn't hold Rafa in the highest regard is nuts.

The Gillett and Hicks fiasco wouldn't have been rumbled as quickly without him. He sacrificed himself for LFC is how I see it.

Sappy404

Liam O wrote: »

Great tactician, spent poorly though largely. Massive turnover of players who he would sign for silly fees and flog them off the next season.

Aquilani is the only 'silly' money player he signed who wasn't a success. You can't blame him for Keane as he wasn't a Benitez signing.

Even his low-money signings were sold on at a profit for the most part.

ShamoBuc

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

And I'm not a Manc, I'm a Dub.

Just as bad:pac:

Crash Bang Wall

Rafa:

Tactically, he was exceptional with Liverpool. Traore won a Champions League medal says it all really.
He pretty much brought zonal marking to the Premier League, and Liverpool excelled with it, even though the media allured to the fact any time we conceded from set pieces!!
His attention to detail was second to none, he found a weakness in Mourinhos Chelsea on more than one occasion with a team, on paper, who should have been beaten out the gate.

He had a high turnover in players I would agree but he tried to improve the squad year on year with whatever funds he was given. One example was Bellamy, he was bought, but then sold a year later, along with Garcia, because funds were needed to buy a better player (Torres). If he had the funds at the disposal that Chelsea/City etc had, he could have had Bellers, Torres and Garcia all in the same team.
When we finished second in the league, it was the ideal time to splash the cash, but he had to sell Alonso for approx 30m (cant understand why he wanted to replace him with Barry a year earlier), and was only given money to buy a crocked Aquilani, the funds promised for Jovetic (spelling) disappeared.

He never asked for crazy money, just enough to be able to compete, and more often than not he wasnt given adequate funds. Alves and Silva to name but a few slipped away at minor prices, compared to what they were sold for a season or 2 later.

His big coups (Alonso Reina Garcia Mascherano Torres) outweigh his big money flops (Aquilani Keane) IMO and I would have no problem with him coming back as gaffer. He definitely has unfinished business.

He also revamped the Academy/Reserve set up and some of the key men he brought in are still there, playing the formation he introduced at the club.

More positives than negatives

doc_17

This thread should be locked. There is no debate. A great manager.

Look at the state of before him. look at the state of us after him.

PhlegmyMoses

doc_17 wrote: »

This thread should be locked. There is no debate. A great manager.

Yes there is. It's like some sort of cult.

Liam O

Making a profit in money terms isn't really the point. They were still lugged with the salaries that the likes of Josemi, Morientes, Zenden, Gonzalez, Paletta, Kromkamp, Bellamy, Voronin etc. would have probably cost a couple of million a season while not adding much on the field and costing the club prize money. He outspent most teams in his time there and didn't bring in the players to prove it. Of the £200m odd he spent on players in his years there and the 70 odd players he went through there's probably 6 or 7 that turned out good.

eagle eye

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

His big coups (Alonso Reina Garcia Mascherano Torres) outweigh his big money flops (Aquilani Keane) IMO and I would have no problem with him coming back as gaffer. He definitely has unfinished business.

What about Babel, Riera, Pennant? And he overpaid for Glen Johnson too.

I think he is an excellent coach but I'd have the proviso that he doesn't decide what players he buys. He can look for a type of player but thats as far as it goes because his record in pretty poor imo.

dreamers75

He made the best liverpool team in the last 20 years technically on the cheap (or Arry tactics buy and sell)

Tactially he was spot on most of the time but limited players let him down.


Decent manager but more of a longterm one rather than a short term ie Inter.

Moneymaker

Good manager, made some bad mistakes at Inter but that shouldn't taint a largely successful career.

mike65

Even as a slightly sceptical observer of Benitez I would greatly rate his ability as a tactical manager and wish a bit of it could transfer by magic to Dalglish. I can also see the shortcomings crazy player turnover down the flanks (curious how the spine presented no problems in this regard), the wish to succeed in Europe tending to get the better of the clubs domestic ambitions. Breaking the duopoly in Spain is worth celebrating just a pity it wasn't (couldn't be) built upon. If 08/09 had been just a little different I'm sure he'd still be at the club (though under Statler and Waldorf I guess anything could still have happened) and probably playing more of the brilliant attacking footie we saw in the Spring that season.

Warper

Well, he isnt exactly being sought after by top clubs anymore which tells you something. He had a good couple of years with Liverpool before he left them in a horrible state. Just lasted a few months with Inter and lets face it, his style of football was boring. He had a great if lucky few years and will be working next in Abu Zali.

Liam O

aaronh007 wrote: »

I would agree with the player turnover, however the only player I would see signed for a silly fee and flogged off would be Keane. Other than himself and Babel (and Aquilani), when Rafa spent big he more often than not got it right.

Most players he bought have subsequently been moved on for more than what they were signed for bar Mascherano who left for the same amount as was purchased. Others he'd signed are worth more than what we paid; Reina, Lucas, Agger, Skrtel for example are worth at the very least double what was paid for them. Well ok, maybe Skittles isn't worth £12 million, but he'd certainly be sold for profit.

Rafa has also left a legacy at Liverpool with the complete rebuild of our youth set up. Will be a few years before we bear the fruit of his and the coaches (Borrell, Segura) work, but he will be remembered for bringing it up to a far higher standard than what it was

It wasn't really the ones he spent big on that are the problems, it's the players in the 5-10m bracket that he'd buy 2 or 3 a season and then have them as passengers in the squad probably making 30-50 grand a week and sell them soon after.

G.K.

Warper wrote: »

Well, he isnt exactly being sought after by top clubs anymore which tells you something. He had a good couple of years with Liverpool before he left them in a horrible state. Just lasted a few months with Inter and lets face it, his style of football was boring. He had a great if lucky few years and will be working next in Abu Zali.

According to you.

SM01

Warper wrote: »

He had a good couple of years with Liverpool before he left them in a horrible state.

I'd take exception with this point. Hicks and Gillett were running Liverpool into the ground and Benitez was attempting to stem the tide against a backdrop of almost unbearable politicking, backstabbing and undermining. His position was untenable in my opinion.

Liam O

SM01 wrote: »

I'd take exception with this point. Hicks and Gillett were running Liverpool into the ground and Benitez was attempting to stem the tide against a backdrop of almost unbearable politicking, backstabbing and undermining. His position was untenable in my opinion.

That was just a weak excuse for an underperforming team imo.

Crash Bang Wall

eagle eye wrote: »

What about Babel, Riera, Pennant? And he overpaid for Glen Johnson too.

I think he is an excellent coach but I'd have the proviso that he doesn't decide what players he buys. He can look for a type of player but thats as far as it goes because his record in pretty poor imo.

Never rated Babel so will give you that one, although some do.
Riera done a job, nothing special but not a huge waste of money either.
With Pennant, he failed to manage his ego so a failure as well unfortunately.

Overpaid for Johnson, but would have had Alves for half the price if the Yanks and Parry got their fingers out....he was available for 8m. Also Johnson isnt a failure, maybe not value for money but not a flop either. If Real buy him for 15m in the summer (as is rumoured) where does that leave this debate?

missingtime

Liam O wrote: »

That was just a weak excuse for an underperforming team imo.

Its hardly a weak excuse when the owners of the club are going behind your back and not following through on promises.

SM01

Liam O wrote: »

That was just a weak excuse for an underperforming team imo.

The point I was making was to do with the club as a whole, not just the playing staff. Perhaps Warper was talking about the latter.

That said, there was absolute turmoil at the club at boardroom / executive level (directly as a result of H&G) and it was clear that Benitez was considered by the hierarchy as persona non grata. It's impossible to keep that from filtering down through to the team. Benitez made mistakes that season but to level the team's failure that season solely at his feet is wrong.

Liam O

missingtime wrote: »

Its hardly a weak excuse when the owners of the club are going behind your back and not following through on promises.

I'd find it more disruptive as a player when a manager who wasted a lot of money on rubbish complained constantly when the shackles were tightened.

missingtime

Liam O wrote: »

I'd find it more disruptive as a player when a manager who wasted a lot of money on rubbish complained constantly when the shackles were tightened.

What should he have done then? Stayed quiet?

He couldn't afford to buy decent players, any money he did make most of it wasn't given to him.