Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

EURATS

K-9 wrote: »

Once a Referendum is called it can't be postponed constitutionally, unless there's a general election.

Again, FG seem to have a great propensity for sealing our fate. Signing in the insertion of the(as SF put it..blackmail) clause in the ESM and then setting a date for a referendum that makes no sense and apparently can't be changed(although Shane Ross presented a bill to change it)

Shame on them. It stinks to high heaven. The only way to beat these sly individuals is for Ireland to give a strong NO vote.

K-9

EURATS wrote: »

Again, FG seem to have a great propensity for sealing our fate. Signing in the insertion of the(as SF put it..blackmail) clause in the ESM and then setting a date for a referendum that makes no sense and apparently can't be changed(although Shane Ross presented a bill to change it)

Shame on them. It stinks to high heaven. The only way to beat these sly individuals is for Ireland to give a strong NO vote.

I don't particularly care what FG, SF or Ross think or do. The facts are, once a referendum date is announced, European or not, the date cannot be changed for very good constitutional and democratic reasons. The only exception is if a general election is called, again for very good constitutional and democratic reasons.

EURATS

K-9 wrote: »

EURATS wrote: »

Again, FG seem to have a great propensity for sealing our fate. Signing in the insertion of the(as SF put it..blackmail) clause in the ESM and then setting a date for a referendum that makes no sense and apparently can't be changed(although Shane Ross presented a bill to change it)

Shame on them. It stinks to high heaven. The only way to beat these sly individuals is for Ireland to give a strong NO vote.

I don't particularly care what FG, SF or Ross think or do. The facts are, once a referendum date is announced, European or not, the date cannot be changed for very good constitutional and democratic reasons. The only exception is if a general election is called, again for very good constitutional and democratic reasons.

Well therefore the second part of my post applies! Labour hardly have the strength of character or vision to break from FG and collapse the government

K-9

EURATS wrote: »

Well therefore the second part of my post applies! Labour hardly have the strength of character or vision to break from FG and collapse the government

Or people could just vote No!

donegal_road

no doubt that this has been mentioned before, sorry if it has.

One of the reasons I will be voting no, is because the treaty may be amended by France and Germany after we have voted on it. How the hell is this democratic?

EURATS

K-9 wrote: »

EURATS wrote: »

Well therefore the second part of my post applies! Labour hardly have the strength of character or vision to break from FG and collapse the government

Or people could just vote No!

Exactly what I said. If this poll was anything to go by, the outcome would be NO. Unfortunately but apparently, boards.ie isn't an accurate representation of public feeling(if red c etc are to be taken seriously)

My name is URL

Jean-Claude Trichet's latest plan on how the € could be saved

Europe could strengthen its monetary union by giving European politicians the power to declare a sovereign state bankrupt and take over its fiscal policy, the former head of the European Central Bank said on Thursday in unveiling a bold proposal to salvage the euro.

[..]

"Federation by exception seems to me not only necessary to make sure we have a solid Economic and Monetary Union, but it might also fit with the very nature of Europe in the long run. I don't think we will have a big (centralized) EU budget," Trichet said in a speech before the Peterson Institute of International Economics here.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47471171/

Scofflaw

donegal_road wrote: »

no doubt that this has been mentioned before, sorry if it has.

One of the reasons I will be voting no, is because the treaty may be amended by France and Germany after we have voted on it. How the hell is this democratic?

While they might be able to tack a Protocol on, any amendment of the Treaty itself would require another vote by us, because what we're voting on is a specific version of the Treaty:

The State may ratify the Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union done at Brussels on the 2nd day of March 2012.

That does not allow for the Treaty to be reopened and re-signed.

cordially,
Scofflaw

the groutch

got my polling card today (possibly late yesterday).
it was hidden inside one of those Stability Treaty leaflets, and accompanied by a One Direct Insurance leaflet.
it would have been so easy to just see the junk mail and bin it all, almost seems deliberate to try reduce turnout

With the latest news out of the G8 meeting, the fiscal compact appears dead in the water before it even started.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18135042
US President Barack Obama has said there is an "emerging consensus" that European countries must now focus on jobs and growth.
Speaking after the G8 summit of some of the world's leading economies, he said the US is confident that Europe can meet its challenges.
President Obama said leaders had made good progress on a range of issues.

Austerity will be banished!!:pac:

Politicians worried about being booted out of office more like.
Will it be more debt writedowns or steaming printing presses next?

lkdsl

Deleted User wrote: »

With the latest news out of the G8 meeting, the fiscal compact appears dead in the water before it even started.



Austerity will be banished!!:pac:

Politicians worried about being booted out of office more like.
Will it be more debt writedowns or steaming printing presses next?

This seems to be the only logical conclusion to a "no" vote. Either we return to a national currency, devalue massively, default and inflate our way out of the problem (remember the 1970's?), or Germany will have to allow the ECB to run the printing presses (which will inflate our way out of the debt) and also allow transfers to peripheral countries like ours.
Germany (who will be by far the largest contributor to any scheme) shows no signs of letting up on their tight control of the ECB objectives. Therefore, back to the punt it would have to be. In that case, time to move money out of your bank account and into Euro notes - or into Sterling, or a bank account in another country.
Of course, that won't help your pension, or any long term savings.

Noreen1

lkdsl wrote: »

This seems to be the only logical conclusion to a "no" vote. Either we return to a national currency, devalue massively, default and inflate our way out of the problem (remember the 1970's?), or Germany will have to allow the ECB to run the printing presses (which will inflate our way out of the debt) and also allow transfers to peripheral countries like ours.
Germany (who will be by far the largest contributor to any scheme) shows no signs of letting up on their tight control of the ECB objectives. Therefore, back to the punt it would have to be. In that case, time to move money out of your bank account and into Euro notes - or into Sterling, or a bank account in another country.
Of course, that won't help your pension, or any long term savings.

Why?
The G8 have already stated that they would like to keep Greece in the Euro - why would they then risk contagion (to the euro) from Ireland?

SafeSurfer

“The State may ratify the Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union done at Brussels on the 2nd day of March 2012. No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by the obligations of the State under that Treaty or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by bodies competent under that Treaty from having the force of law in the State.”

This is what we are voting on.


So does this mean that nothing undertaken by the state in enacting the measures in the treaty can be deemed to be unconstitutional?

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

With the latest news out of the G8 meeting, the fiscal compact appears dead in the water before it even started.



Austerity will be banished!!:pac:

Politicians worried about being booted out of office more like.
Will it be more debt writedowns or steaming printing presses next?

Doesnt matter if its dead in the water mickey noonan still wants the referendumdum passed. And if its rejected sure they can have another swing at it now thanks to Hollande :pac:

Shows how ludicrous our govt have become at this stage.

My name is URL

Bambi wrote: »

Shows how ludicrous our govt have become at this stage.

It's almost a good enough reason to vote Yes!

Justice for the individual

My name is URL wrote: »

It's almost a good enough reason to vote Yes!

Therefore, would we trust their advice on the matter? If in doubt, vote NO.

Dyr

Scofflaw wrote: »

Oh, aye. Ratifying Lisbon completely caused our current plight.

amused,
Scofflaw

Who said anything about Lisbon in particular? Cheap credit and unlimited migration of labour from europe where what fuelled our property boom and blew the arse out of the economy. Guess what we have to thank for both?

You could also blame it on build-it-and-they-will-come approach that the europhiles took towards monetary union.

Unless of course you think that the current clusterf**k is in some way uniquely irish. That would be amusing.

Chucky the tree

Bambi wrote: »

Who said anything about Lisbon in particular? Cheap credit and unlimited migration of labour from europe where what fuelled our property boom and blew the arse out of the economy. Guess what we have to thank for both?

You could also blame it on build-it-and-they-will-come approach that the europhiles took towards monetary union.

Unless of course you think that the current clusterf**k is in some way uniquely irish. That would be amusing.

Poor fiscal management is what blew the arse out of the economy. Which was caused by terrible politicians which isn't unique to Ireland. Also the people of Ireland have to take a big portion of the blame.

Noreen1

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Poor fiscal management is what blew the arse out of the economy. Which was caused by terrible politicians which isn't unique to Ireland. Also the people of Ireland have to take a big portion of the blame.

Don't you mean some of the people, with the help and encouragement of most of the banks, developers, and Politicians?

Chucky the tree

Noreen1 wrote: »

Don't you mean some of the people, with the help and encouragement of most of the banks, developers, and Politicians?

Obviously not everyone is to blame in Ireland, but the majority are whether they voted for FF or didn't vote. Problem is in democracy everyone generally gets tarred with the same brush, it's why I keep hearing about France rejectin austerity.

Noreen1

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Obviously not everyone is to blame in Ireland, but the majority are whether they voted for FF or didn't vote. Problem is in democracy everyone generally gets tarred with the same brush, it's why I keep hearing about France rejectin austerity.

I would suggest that the majority of people are guilty of nothing more than being ill-informed enough to believe the lies and spin that they were fed.
Consider, for example, the age demographic of people likely to buy houses/apartments - generally young single people, or young married couples wanting to start a family.

Those of us old enough to remember the 80s never believed the spin.
Any parent will tell you that "It's hard to put an old head on young shoulders". All people wanted to do was own a home (with some very extravagant exceptions) - they were constantly advised by those who were supposed to know better to get on the property ladder. They didn't set the prices of homes, nor were they tasked with managing the economy. Therefore, they bear considerably less responsibility for the mess we find ourselves in than those who were tasked with managing the economy - and who are being excused by the "We are all to blame" bull.

As to people being responsible because they voted FF?
FF haven't been able to garner enough votes (despite all the spin merchants) to form a Government in years, just as FG couldn't form a Government without Labour in the last election, despite the appalling mess the previous Government had created.

To me, that suggests that the majority of people have not endorsed the policies of any Political Party - hence there is a clear failing on the part of said parties (all of them) to represent the people.
Hence the "Ah, sure they're all the same" saying around election time.
Sadly, it's the truth.
When in opposition, party X or Y roundly criticise the policies of the current Government. If party X or Y then go on to form the next Government, surprise, surprise - they implement the exact same policies!
Meanwhile, anyone who points this out is accused of being naive for believing electioneering spin - whilst still being held responsible for the Governments policies, even though they weren't the policies the people thought they were voting for.......

Seems we should all shut up, pay up, and be good little lackeys, rather than trying to implement change!:mad:

I'm not suggesting that these attitudes are yours, Chucky - but they are certainly representative of several posters around here - and they are both annoying and insulting, tbh.

lkdsl

Noreen1 wrote: »

Why?
The G8 have already stated that they would like to keep Greece in the Euro - why would they then risk contagion (to the euro) from Ireland?

There was the other possibility - that German policy would change to allow massive quantitative easing (let the ECB print money) and to permit transfers to peripheral countries in need. Certainly, lots of people would like to keep Greece in the Euro, but few seem to be contemplating the requirements for that to be successfully implemented.

Chucky the tree

Noreen1 wrote: »

I would suggest that the majority of people are guilty of nothing more than being ill-informed enough to believe the lies and spin that they were fed.
Consider, for example, the age demographic of people likely to buy houses/apartments - generally young single people, or young married couples wanting to start a family.

Those of us old enough to remember the 80s never believed the spin.
Any parent will tell you that "It's hard to put an old head on young shoulders". All people wanted to do was own a home (with some very extravagant exceptions) - they were constantly advised by those who were supposed to know better to get on the property ladder. They didn't set the prices of homes, nor were they tasked with managing the economy. Therefore, they bear considerably less responsibility for the mess we find ourselves in than those who were tasked with managing the economy - and who are being excused by the "We are all to blame" bull.

As to people being responsible because they voted FF?
FF haven't been able to garner enough votes (despite all the spin merchants) to form a Government in years, just as FG couldn't form a Government without Labour in the last election, despite the appalling mess the previous Government had created.

To me, that suggests that the majority of people have not endorsed the policies of any Political Party - hence there is a clear failing on the part of said parties (all of them) to represent the people.
Hence the "Ah, sure they're all the same" saying around election time.
Sadly, it's the truth.
When in opposition, party X or Y roundly criticise the policies of the current Government. If party X or Y then go on to form the next Government, surprise, surprise - they implement the exact same policies!
Meanwhile, anyone who points this out is accused of being naive for believing electioneering spin - whilst still being held responsible for the Governments policies, even though they weren't the policies the people thought they were voting for.......

Seems we should all shut up, pay up, and be good little lackeys, rather than trying to implement change!:mad:

I'm not suggesting that these attitudes are yours, Chucky - but they are certainly representative of several posters around here - and they are both annoying and insulting, tbh.

If politicians told them to put their hand in a fire would they? Of course not. If grown adults are so stupid they need someone else to tell them what to do then there real isn't much hope for them. People have to accept responsibility for their own actions. If they have no idea how the economy or politics then learn for yourself, don't rely on someone who only wants your vote to make decision for you.

Noreen1

lkdsl wrote: »

There was the other possibility - that German policy would change to allow massive quantitative easing (let the ECB print money) and to permit transfers to peripheral countries in need. Certainly, lots of people would like to keep Greece in the Euro, but few seem to be contemplating the requirements for that to be successfully implemented.

Given the anti-austerity protests in Germany lately, together with pressure from the G8, Merkel may yet soften her stance.
She seems to be intelligent - hence the only reason I can think of for her hardline approach to austerity only, is that she is humouring her own electorate.
If the German people see that their exports will be affected by excessive austerity in other Countries, then they are likely to see that growth and employment in the rest of the Eurozone will benefit German business exports, and thus, the German economy.

A week used to be a long time in Politics - lately, it's looking more like two or three days...

Show Time

No for the simple reason that Irishman laid down their lives here against the English and in Europe against the Germans so we could decided our own fate.

wellboytoo

I'm taking my lead from Sinn Fein and Declan Ganley and voting Yes, always a signpost for me.

Noreen1

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If politicians told them to put their hand in a fire would they? Of course not. If grown adults are so stupid they need someone else to tell them what to do then there real isn't much hope for them. People have to accept responsibility for their own actions. If they have no idea how the economy or politics then learn for yourself, don't rely on someone who only wants your vote to make decision for you.

So why do we pay TDs, the staff of the Dept. of Finance, and Economists?
These are (supposedly) the experts.
The fact is, the "experts" got it catastrophically wrong, or lied, or both.

Yet people in their early twenties are supposed to have accumulated all the financial and economic acumen that the experts lacked - despite, in most cases, having no training or experience in these areas?

Meanwhile, "the experts" are absolved of responsibility? Eh, no - just no.

Chucky the tree

Noreen1 wrote: »

So why do we pay TDs, the staff of the Dept. of Finance, and Economists?
These are (supposedly) the experts.
The fact is, the "experts" got it catastrophically wrong, or lied, or both.

Yet people in their early twenties are supposed to have accumulated all the financial and economic acumen that the experts lacked - despite, in most cases, having no training or experience in these areas?

Meanwhile, "the experts" are absolved of responsibility? Eh, no - just no.

We basically pay politicians to do why the electorate want them to do, then we pay the people in the Department of finance to do what the politicians tell them to do. People only become TDs because they get elected, DOF then do what those TDs tell them. The first problem is believing polticians are experts, people must be really clueless if they believe that. Also "the experts" aren't abolved of the blame, however the blame doesn't get dumped all on them. If the public get absolved from all blame then nothing will stop them continiously electing clowns because they couldn't be arsed learning some simple economics.

Vita nova

Bambi wrote: »

...
Cheap credit and unlimited migration of labour from europe where what fuelled our property boom and blew the arse out of the economy. Guess what we have to thank for both?

Cheap credit certainly fuelled the bubble but it didn't have to. We knew before joining the euro that given the size of our economy we would not be able to influence interest rates (monetary policy), however, we still had fiscal tools (taxes) and regulation to prevent a property bubble. In fact fiscal policy is a lot more surgical than monetary policy in that it can be targeted at certain sections of the economy.
The problem in Ireland's case was that the then government inflated the bubble by providing tax breaks for property investment, furthermore, they did not ensure adequate financial regulation of personal and wholesale lending.
In fact, members of the European Commission complained about the inflationary nature of our 2001 budget (property tax breaks and public service pay rises) but Bertie Ahern and Charlie McCreevy completely ignored them and even told them that they should run their economies more like ours. If our government had displayed a little less hubris and listened to our EU partners then we might have avoided a lot of our current problems.

As for "unlimited immigration of labour" fuelling our property boom - perhaps, but they came here for a better life and to do the jobs that we didn't want to do or to fill vacancies that couldn't be filled locally - hell, we've been doing the same for centuries. As someone in his 40s, I can honestly say it made a nice change to the years of emigration I'd witnessed.

You could also blame it on build-it-and-they-will-come approach that the europhiles took towards monetary union.

The "build-it-and-they-will-come approach" that you describe, is what I've outlined above and is precisely why the Fiscal Stabiliy treaty was created. Unfortunately the Maastricht treaty set the government debt and deficit limits but it didn't put in place sufficient measures to ensure compliance. This Fiscal Stability treaty requires us to put in place rules into our national law to ensure that our government complies with the conditions we've already signed up to in the Maastricht treaty and other agreements.

Unless of course you think that the current clusterf**k is in some way uniquely irish. That would be amusing.

Of course it wasn't uniquely Irish; many other countries displayed a similar lack of governance and regulation, hence why we have the TSCG and the referendum thereon.

.

Scofflaw

Bambi wrote: »

Who said anything about Lisbon in particular? Cheap credit and unlimited migration of labour from europe where what fuelled our property boom and blew the arse out of the economy. Guess what we have to thank for both?

You could also blame it on build-it-and-they-will-come approach that the europhiles took towards monetary union.

Unless of course you think that the current clusterf**k is in some way uniquely irish. That would be amusing.

Our CF undoubtedly is in some ways uniquely Irish - that's how we've managed to have the third most expensive bank bailout of the last half-century, and the world's sharpest property bubble and burst.

Or did you miss the following: Irish banks with balance sheets three and a half times GDP; Irish banks that pioneered borrow short-term, lend long-term; a complaisant Irish financial regulator engaged in such "light-touch" regulation that we had no idea of the scale of the problems; a series of complaisant Irish governments giving the banks whatever they wanted in the way of legislation to allow ever riskier ways for the banks to borrow; Ireland being described as the "Wild West of finance"; repeated tax breaks for property, property ownership, property construction, property anything; Irish planning corruption resulting in rezoning of land sufficient to build houses for the entire population over again; a gamble by the Minister for Finance to pull off a no-cost bailout that went horribly wrong; 'benchmarking' exercises that gave us one of the best paid public sectors in the world; the throttling of the Office of Corporate Enforcement; a complete lack of interest in tackling white collar crime; a total failure to adopt fiscal policies that adapted to the euro rather than treating it as a piggy bank; complete lack of macro-prudential regulation of the banking sector; repeated examples of groupthink; moving a big chunk of the tax base from income to stamp duty, thus balancing the state's finances on the property bubble; cheerleading the property bubble; failing to learn from the history of other such bubbles; and so on, and so on.

You could add to that the failure to properly fund Irish universities, the failure to steer funding towards business rather than property, the failure to maintain alliances and good working relationships in Europe, the policy of throwing money at anything that looked like a problem instead of trying to fix it; a ludicrously obvious "decentralisation" programme that raised public sector costs, reduced its expertise, and undercut the authority of every Cabinet member but the Taoiseach and Finance Minister.

Actually, you could keep adding. We have wasted the hard work, discipline, and austerity that created the boom of the Nineties and blown the first really prosperous period in the history of the State. We have been badly governed, and we have been badly governed because we voted for bad governance.

cordially,
Scofflaw