E39 Blocked Cat

dahamsta

Wife's E39 has been diagnosed as having a blocked cat by our local indie, they estimate €400 per cat and €200-240 labour, can't tell if it'll be one or two cats until one is replaced. They say they can remove the internals for the same labour, which would get her by until the next NCT a year from now, but this will of course mean the same labour again. Used cats don't seem a viable option given the labour, since they're as likely to go.

Is that the limit of her options? The issue with the car is a hesitation when warm in 1st and 2nd, I presume caused by a lack of airflow, is this an incremental thing with cats, or is it possible it'll just stay annoying for a good while? Will it cause any other damage?

Car isn't worth a whole lot, we'd sell it as-is if we'd known earlier, but she's just taxed it for a year because she passed the NCT 2 weeks ago!

EDIT: It's the 2.2 btw.

EDIT2: Killing it isn't really an option, it's worth about €2k so it'd be too much of a hit.

listermint

dahamsta wrote: »

Wife's E39 has been diagnosed as having a blocked cat by our local indie, they estimate €400 per cat and €200-240 labour, can't tell if it'll be one or two cats until one is replaced. They say they can remove the internals for the same labour, which would get her by until the next NCT a year from now, but this will of course mean the same labour again. Used cats don't seem a viable option given the labour, since they're as likely to go.

Is that the limit of her options? The issue with the car is a hesitation when warm in 1st and 2nd, I presume caused by a lack of airflow, is this an incremental thing with cats, or is it possible it'll just stay annoying for a good while? Will it cause any other damage?

Car isn't worth a whole lot, we'd sell it as-is if we'd known earlier, but she's just taxed it for a year because she passed the NCT 2 weeks ago!

EDIT: It's the 2.2 btw.

EDIT2: Killing it isn't really an option, it's worth about €2k so it'd be too much of a hit.

has the Indie done a diagnostic read on it? That should tell him which Cat is causing the issues. Rather than randomly replacing a damaged one.

is he confident its not a sensor issue? Whats his history like on BMW's ?

dahamsta

It's Ardfallen Motorcare in Cork, originally a BMW specialist so they'd have the gear; I'd be very surprised if they hadn't hooked it up.

listermint

Well if thats the case, then replacing both might be the option if you are holding on (driving it into the ground)

Whats the mileage like on it ?

dahamsta

Not sure, but over 100k anyway. Spending a grand on a two grand car would be a very hard pill to swallow.

listermint

dahamsta wrote: »

Not sure, but over 100k anyway. Spending a grand on a two grand car would be a very hard pill to swallow.

Unfortunate cost to maintenance when they get to certain miles.

However id go and source the Cat yourself and just get a labour cost. That would be where i would start.

Big Nasty

Would be worth your while to try a good cat cleaner and see if that makes any difference.

listermint

That or just see if you can get a low mileage second hand for nothing.


http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31331&highlight=E39+Cat


Valdelis was selling some E39 bits.

Can't really fathom how a blocked cat would only be an issue in 1st or 2nd when warm, sounds like a potential poor diagnosis to me. You'd have very reduced performance with a blocked cat.

If it was a blocked cat the most efficient repair is to gut the cat yourself and run it to the next NCT and see how you feel about investing in it then.

LilMrsDahamsta

listermint wrote: »

Well if thats the case, then replacing both might be the option if you are holding on (driving it into the ground)

Whats the mileage like on it ?

Mileage is 104,500. And I do intend driving it into the ground. I just haven't any money to spend on it at present, especially after landing out €850 on tax a fortnight ago. :-(

Nissan doctor

I'd be more concerned with them diagnosing what caused the cat/cats to become blocked, if that is even the case here, which I wouldn't be convinced of.

The cat internals breaking up will be due to a fuelling issue in the vast majority of cases.

Also, removing the internals may allow the car to drive normally, but it will constantly display an engine fault light.

LilMrsDahamsta

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I'd be more concerned with them diagnosing what caused the cat/cats to become blocked, if that is even the case here, which I wouldn't be convinced of.

The cat internals breaking up will be due to a fuelling issue in the vast majority of cases.

Also, removing the internals may allow the car to drive normally, but it will constantly display an engine fault light.

I'm going to get the car back from them tomorrow while I decide what I can afford to do. Meantime, I'll ask them:

1. What diagnostics done? Why can't they say 1 cat or 2?
2. What caused the blocked cat(s) in the first place? Is there more work needed to address this?
3. Consequences of doing nothing? Will I do damage if I just keep driving it, performance aside?

Anything else?

LilMrsDahamsta

LilMrsDahamsta wrote: »

Anything else?

........ are they 100% sure it is a blocked cat
If so why is there no symptom when cruising in high gears at low revs.

somebody_else

ebay it.

I just got cat for Merc w202 from UK for 120 euros - new one.
labour to replace whole exhaust from engine - 100 euros.
Mechanic in Dun Laoghaire

Tom

dahamsta

dahamsta wrote: »

Wife's E39 has been diagnosed as having a blocked cat by our local indie, they estimate €400 per cat and €200-240 labour, can't tell if it'll be one or two cats until one is replaced. ..........

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E39-5-Series-520i-2-2-00-01-Petrol-Exhaust-Catalytic-Converter-Cat-/220939995441?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item33710cc931#ht_2268wt_1187

I wonder is this under £200 for both cats?

Onwardandupwar

I agree totally now I do know a nice bit about theses models and I can honestly say I haven't seen to many cats blocked on them over the years in fact I'm finding it hard to even remember changing one let alone 2.

Has everything else being checked.i bit of advice to check if it is a blocked cat the best thing to do is remove the 02 sensor and then the gases will escape and bring it for a drive and see if there is any difference
If there isn't then it's not blocked

Have the checked the breather valve under the manifold this is another common problem.

dahamsta

That's the older model RoverJames, this is the 2.2. Haynes reckons the cats are in the manifold on the newer model, which is why access is a problem and labour is pricey. Pity really, it woud have been a lot easier your way!

Thanks to everyone for the feedback, it's been very helpful. Since the problem is only occurring under particular circumstances and even then only intermittently, we're just going to drive on until it conks out, we'll see where we stand then wrt to NCT, etc.

Heading to Dublin tomorrow and coming back with a boot and roof box full of IKEA crap, so that should be a good test.

LilMrsDahamsta

I got the car back earlier on. Apparently they can hear bits of ceramic rattling around in one of the cats, so its definitely gone; second one doesn't sound as bad, but they think better to replace both when it comes to it; nearly same labour cost.

Going to keep on driving till it claps out, and then either just remove busted cat or replace, depending on finances. Unfortunately the cats are up the side of the engine by the manifold, so new/reconditioned exhaust system won't work.

Looks like I better keep the number for roadside rescue handy! Thanks for all the advice lads.

LilMrsDahamsta

dahamsta wrote: »

That's the older model RoverJames, this is the 2.2. Haynes reckons the cats are in the manifold on the newer model, which is why access is a problem and labour is pricey. Pity really, it woud have been a lot easier your way!

Thanks to everyone for the feedback, it's been very helpful. Since the problem is only occurring under particular circumstances and even then only intermittently, we're just going to drive on until it conks out, we'll see where we stand then wrt to NCT, etc.

Heading to Dublin tomorrow and coming back with a boot and roof box full of IKEA crap, so that should be a good test.

Ha ha! Great minds!

dahamsta

It's like I'm not even there! *sob*

Owen

Would ye call into Frank Wyse breakers on the way to IKEA and see if he has a full exhaust for one on the way back?

Big Nasty

LilMrsDahamsta wrote: »

Ha ha! Great minds!

dahamsta wrote: »

It's like I'm not even there! *sob*

Take it to PM's people!

Could this be boards next love story? :eek::):cool:

Owen

Do the names not give away the fact that they're married?

Big Nasty

Owen wrote: »

Do the names not give away the fact that they're married?

Onwardandupwar

LilMrsDahamsta wrote: »

I got the car back earlier on. Apparently they can hear bits of ceramic rattling around in one of the cats, so its definitely gone; second one doesn't sound as bad, but they think better to replace both when it comes to it; nearly same labour cost.

Going to keep on driving till it claps out, and then either just remove busted cat or replace, depending on finances. Unfortunately the cats are up the side of the engine by the manifold, so new/reconditioned exhaust system won't work.

Looks like I better keep the number for roadside rescue handy! Thanks for all the advice lads.

Well u said blocked cat that's a big difference for the cat falling apart inside totally different

Nissan doctor

LilMrsDahamsta wrote: »

I got the car back earlier on. Apparently they can hear bits of ceramic rattling around in one of the cats, so its definitely gone; second one doesn't sound as bad, but they think better to replace both when it comes to it; nearly same labour cost.

Going to keep on driving till it claps out, and then either just remove busted cat or replace, depending on finances. Unfortunately the cats are up the side of the engine by the manifold, so new/reconditioned exhaust system won't work.

Looks like I better keep the number for roadside rescue handy! Thanks for all the advice lads.

The problem is that if you leave all the loose pieces of cat in the exhaust system you could end up having to replace the entire exhaust system due to the pieces making their way into the silencers.

Did they give any explanation as to how the cat/cats failed?

LilMrsDahamsta

Onwardandupwar wrote: »

Well u said blocked cat that's a big difference for the cat falling apart inside totally different

I realise that; that's why I came back with the update. Yesterday they just said blocked over the phone. Today, in person,there was a big long explanation about the cat disintegrating internally.

Yer man seemed to think it was a normal wear and tear issue. He had a slightly older one than mine in with the exact same thing last week apparently.

Nissan doctor

LilMrsDahamsta wrote: »

I realise that; that's why I came back with the update. Yesterday they just said blocked over the phone. Today, in person,there was a big long explanation about the cat disintegrating internally.

Yer man seemed to think it was a normal wear and tear issue. He had a slightly older one than mine in with the exact same thing last week apparently.

He's must have missed that day in collage so:rolleyes:

Onwardandupwar

Well no I can confirm that is a common fault on that engine.but personally I'd get a second hand one and put it on there handy enough to do to be honest.actually there might be two in the workshop.but of I was u I'd drive her on with the test until u have to test it again.altough as I said any mechanic that knows there bmws shouldn't charge ya more then 100e to fit them also

LilMrsDahamsta

Nissan doctor wrote: »

The problem is that if you leave all the loose pieces of cat in the exhaust system you could end up having to replace the entire exhaust system due to the pieces making their way into the silencers.

Did they give any explanation as to how the cat/cats failed?

Seriously?! That puts a different perspective on things going forward so. They didn't mention any potential harm from doing nothing, and I did ask specifically about it. They just said eventually a bit of the cat would block the exhaust and the car wouldn't go any more; then I'd need to get it towed and work done.

I also asked about why the cat went as I was concerned there could be other issues ongoing, potentially being masked by this pretty serious one. I was told it was a normal wear and tear item at this mileage.

Nissan doctor

LilMrsDahamsta wrote: »

Seriously?! That puts a different perspective on things going forward so. They didn't mention any potential harm from doing nothing, and I did ask specifically about it. They just said eventually a bit of the cat would block the exhaust and the car wouldn't go any more; then I'd need to get it towed and work done.

I also asked about why the cat went as I was concerned there could be other issues ongoing, potentially being masked by this pretty serious one. I was told it was a normal wear and tear item at this mileage.

Most places will say this as its more hassle to go hunting for the cause. Cats are not directly effected by mileage....in fact, healthy engine doing big mileage would be less likely to have cat failures.

If your car is used mostly for short drives then this could be a cause, as could a weaker spark from coilpacks beginning to break down, as could something as simple as wrongly gapped spark plugs. Lambda sensors also directly effect fuelling and what most people don't realise is that after approx 100k most lambda's are beyond their operating life.

LilMrsDahamsta

Onwardandupwar wrote: »

Well no I can confirm that is a common fault on that engine.but personally I'd get a second hand one and put it on there handy enough to do to be honest.actually there might be two in the workshop.but of I was u I'd drive her on with the test until u have to test it again.altough as I said any mechanic that knows there bmws shouldn't charge ya more then 100e to fit them also

I'm definitely tempted to go the second hand route, particularly to avoid further damage that ND described above. They're €420 each new, and I was quoted €260ish labour. That's a huge amount to spend on a car that cost me just over €2k to buy!

I know Ardfallen are well respected by BMW folk and no doubt rightly so but the prices seem more than a tad steep and I'm still struggling with how the cat issue explains the hesitation in first and second as now it seems a cat isn't blocked at all.

LilMrsDahamsta

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Most places will say this as its more hassle to go hunting for the cause. Cats are not directly effected by mileage....in fact, healthy engine doing big mileage would be less likely to have cat failures.

If your car is used mostly for short drives then this could be a cause, as could a weaker spark from coilpacks beginning to break down, as could something as simple as wrongly gapped spark plugs. Lambda sensors also directly effect fuelling and what most people don't realise is that after approx 100k most lambda's are beyond their operating life.

Y'see, that's along the lines of what I thought, but I didn't want to be sounding too know-it-all on them. I suppose, in fairness, they didn't charge me at all for identifying the problem, so I can understand why they didn't get into too much detail.

I only have the car since the start of October / 97,000 miles, and I got it serviced straight away. There was a partial history, but I bought it from a dealer so no idea of previous owners' driving habits. I use it to go up and down the N25 from Killeagh to Cork about twice a week, and to the supermarket in Youghal, so mostly main road driving now. It was cheap because just about every panel needs minor paint / dent correction, so I do fear the last owner didn't give it much love, but there's nothing to indicate it wasn't taken reasonable care of mechanically. I guess its just the risk you take when you're nearly in bangernomics territory!

Nissan doctor

RoverJames wrote: »

I know Ardfallen are well respected by BMW folk and no doubt rightly so but the prices seem more than a tad steep and I'm still struggling with how the cat issue explains the hesitation in first and second as now it seems a cat isn't blocked at all.

I missed that part.....its much more likely that the hesitation is a misfire.....which is what led to the cats failing. Unburned fuel being thrown into the cats will kill them very quickly.

LilMrsDahamsta

RoverJames wrote: »

I know Ardfallen are well respected by BMW folk and no doubt rightly so but the prices seem more than a tad steep and I'm still struggling with how the cat issue explains the hesitation in first and second as now it seems a cat isn't blocked at all.

I'll probably have to get the work done elsewhere TBH; I agree it's pricey, especially considering what the car itself is worth.

I'd be going beyond my limited mechanical knowledge to try to explain the hesitation!

Owen

I'm in Midleton next week T, if you want, I can throw a small diagnostic rig in the car and meet either your or himself in Midleton and diagnose the misfire.

LilMrsDahamsta

Owen wrote: »

I'm in Midleton next week T, if you want, I can throw a small diagnostic rig in the car and meet either your or himself in Midleton and diagnose the misfire.

Thanks a million Owen! That'd be great altogether, but don't go putting yourself out. I'm up in Cork often enough and you're only over the road from the mothers' if that would suit you better. I'll get Ad to get on to you cause I've no number for you.

SouperComputer

Biggest concern with cats that are either clogging or breaking up is heat buildup. Especially if you have overfueling. Red hot exhaust parts + raw fuel is a bad combo. Not trying to freak you out, its a distant possibility but still something to bear in mind for others if you have a car that has a severly clogged exhaust.

I'm of the firm belief that it's important to give your car a decent bit of whelly once in a while. You dont have to redline the thing and ring its neck, just give it a bit of stick getting onto the motorway or main road once a week to keep things cleared out.

Having Owen to checkout the car sounds like a smart plan. Only thing that would suck more than replacing the cats is to have to replace them AGAIN because you have marginal coils/plugs/sensors blah blah.

dahamsta

I'll take you up on that Owen, thanks! Just let me know when you'll be down and I'll make sure I'm around.

Had the car for the day today and I think I was a bit out with the symptoms: the trigger /seems/ to be switching the engine off and then on again after a short while (hence my thought that it only happens when it's warm). Invariably it'll refuse to catch on the first turn, and when it starts the hesitation appears -- put the foot down and it bogs down so I have to declutch and rev hard to get going again. Disappears again after a while.

(For the record, the car has no fear of being under-driven: T is no slouch, and I have to confess to driving the hole off it on the twisty stuff, as it's more fun (and less terrifying) than my own. Oh for an M5 Touring!)

I assumed it was a vacuum issue because googling for the hesitation suggested that this was a common symptom for that on the e39, but in hindsight it does feel very much like an older car with the choke left on, so ye could be right about overfueling (underburn maybe? overfuelling sounds wonky). Hopefully Owen will be able to shed some light on the issue. And it won't die over the weekend!

Such is life with Bangernomics! Going to look at another one for me on Sunday! 1996!

dahamsta

One more thing, it's burning oil like a Saudi. Obviously anything of this age is going to burn a little oil, but this is probably burning more than it should. No smoke, it just goes through it like the clappers.

My 1993 520i didn't burn a drop in the 6 months I had her, 160k mile on the clock ish. I have rarely had to top up oil in anycar I have had and they were all less than fresh tbh. Are you throwing in a litre every 1000 miles ish ?

dahamsta

Honestly haven't kept track, it just seems like a lot. I topped both cars up at the same time the last time, and the e39 was down to min. The e38 didn't need a drop. Couldn't put an actual date on it though. Last time I topped it up before that it was down to min too.

IF you've only topped it up those two times its not too bad if ye have it 6 months and have done 6K miles ish.

Nissan doctor

dahamsta wrote: »

One more thing, it's burning oil like a Saudi. Obviously anything of this age is going to burn a little oil, but this is probably burning more than it should. No smoke, it just goes through it like the clappers.

Not like that was an important piece of info or anything:P

If its burning oil then that will cause damage to the cats over time and unless you repair the issue, it will just damage the new cats too.

dahamsta

Just topped up yesterday. We'll see what Owen's rig has to say.

LilMrsDahamsta

Update:

Car got a bit worse over time, really lacking in power under acceleration when warm. Finally got pissed off enough with it last week to have someone else give me a quote for the work. Figured I'd get a CU loan or something.

Yer man hooked up the diagnostics and promptly announced I needed 2 cam shaft sensors; nothing else. Cost €61.40 plus an hour labour! The car is now running perfectly. Very happy.

I guess I'm just posting to say thanks to all those who advised to get a second opinion and not to jump in and do the recommended work immediately. I'd be down over a grand if I'd listened to Ardfallen, and it still wouldn't be fixed!

Big Nasty

Well done!

That's brilliant, I'm delighted they were wrong, their diagnosis made little sense.

carbon nanotube

dahamsta wrote: »

Wife's E39 has been diagnosed as having a blocked cat by our local indie, they estimate €400 per cat and €200-240 labour, can't tell if it'll be one or two cats until one is replaced. They say they can remove the internals for the same labour, which would get her by until the next NCT a year from now, but this will of course mean the same labour again. Used cats don't seem a viable option given the labour, since they're as likely to go.

Is that the limit of her options? The issue with the car is a hesitation when warm in 1st and 2nd, I presume caused by a lack of airflow, is this an incremental thing with cats, or is it possible it'll just stay annoying for a good while? Will it cause any other damage?

Car isn't worth a whole lot, we'd sell it as-is if we'd known earlier, but she's just taxed it for a year because she passed the NCT 2 weeks ago!

EDIT: It's the 2.2 btw.

EDIT2: Killing it isn't really an option, it's worth about €2k so it'd be too much of a hit.

try that steve murhpy guy in cork, he is a bmw legend.

never mind

bmstuff

Just another so-called BMW specialist to avoid...Maybe he has skills, but that was a blattant extortion exercise!
I know the feeling, there are so many clowns around

Glad you get sorted OP.