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Lord Mountcharles to set up distillery in Slane

  • 17-04-2012 9:43am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭


    Lord Mountcharles has announced he is building a distillery at Slane. He announced his plans on the John Murray show yesterday. You can find the podcast here.

    Good news in my book.
    Tagged:


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,829 ✭✭✭✭The Hill Billy


    Right folks - I've deleted quite a number of off-topic replies to the OP.

    If you have a problem with titled anglo-irish ascendency folk - take it elsewhere.

    Any more off-topic posts & I'll be back with the banhammer.

    tHB


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,988 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    I hope they can pull it off. It's no easy feat getting through the red tape a distillery requires in Ireland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,829 ✭✭✭✭The Hill Billy


    celticbest banned for two weeks.

    tHB


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    <Mod-snip>
    I hope they can pull it off. It's no easy feat getting through the red tape a distillery requires in Ireland.

    I think the planning will be the biggest step/block on them.

    Its such a shame that unlike Scotland which has hundreds of distilleries, Ireland only has 3 and they are all owned by foreign companies.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    This is a piqued response from Henry Mountcharles in the face of having lost Cooley as a source of whiskey for his brand. I personally doubt he has the financial capacity to fund a distillery through to the point where it would be making money.
    Nevertheless, there is now a clear need for another distillery in Ireland to pick up independent bottling capacity.
    If the law requiring very large stills was to be amended, it would facilitate an explosion of micro-distilling in this country, which would suit Henry's needs and that of quite a few others, including I suspect one or two of the craft brewers.
    As I don't see that law changing soon, my gut feeling on this is that Henry will not develop a distillery.


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,988 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    If the law requiring very large stills was to be amended, it would facilitate an explosion of micro-distilling in this country
    Seems likely. If it were me I think I'd be using the publicity to lobby for that rather than promote a non-existent whiskey.

    So is Slane Castle whiskey now defunct?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Henry's son, his co-partner in Slane Whiskey, is former IDL. IDL do supply a small number of independent bottlers. It is possible that they could do a deal to keep the brand going with IDL whiskey in the bottle. I don't know if this is a route being explored however, though it would seem to be prudent for them to do so.
    If that doesn't come off, Bushmillls are unlikely to supply Slane, and Kilbeggan is also Beam owned, so in that case, yes, Slane would be at best off the market for a few years.
    I'd love to see someone with a profile get behind a law change on distilling. The time is ripe for it now. The law was introduced to prevent poitin distillation (which we know doesn't really work, but in any case, interest in poitin is not what it was, and the problem is much lessened anyway.)
    Personally, I'd like to see home distillation legalised as it is in New Zealand. But failing that, a reduction in minimum still capacity size would be great, as it would immediately green-light a raft of current micro-distilling pipe dreams across the country.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,513 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    I'm curious to know how Longueville House got a licence to distil in such small quantities.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,988 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    IIRC, you may be able to bypass the size requirement with a court certificate, but only a short amount of time perusing the legislation here left me needing a stiff drink.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    I'm curious to know how Longueville House got a licence to distil in such small quantities.

    I'm unsure. It may be because they're not making whiskey, or because they obtained a court cert, or because they're breaking the law.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    given the boom in irish whiskey sales worldwise and the distilleries rush to expand production capacity to match, i doubt they'll have the spare stock over the next few years to supply whiskey for own label sales.

    The time is ripe for these archiac laws to be changed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Brockagh


    The original law, I believe, was to stop portable stills. I talked to customs officials who did not think the still size would be much of a problem. Kilbeggan's stills aren't that big either, although they're over the minimum size.

    A few distillery plans have fallen by the wayside over the last ten years or so - Coola Mills and Cloonaughill. It was risky when they were being planned, but if they had got off the ground, they'd have big advantage over the ones being planned today.

    Setting up the distillery in original buildings would save on money, but I saw a breakdown of the cost of distilling for Bladnoch, and one batch is big money. All a bit of a gamble, given the time it takes whiskey to mature.

    Maybe he could get the Teelings on board. I'm sure they're planning something.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    John Teeling would be my best guess for the next Irish distillery (apart from those already past the dreaming stage, ie Dingle and Peter Lavery.)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    John Teeling would be my best guess for the next Irish distillery (apart from those already past the dreaming stage, ie Dingle and Peter Lavery.)

    I'd be surprised if the Beam deal didnt perclude the Teeling family in becoming involved in a new distillary for at least a few years.

    Still the time is ideal for a new distillery. Despite the set-up costs i'm sure a decent business man would have little trouble raising funds and attracting shareholders through the BES schemes etc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    bamboozle wrote: »
    Still the time is ideal for a new distillery. Despite the set-up costs i'm sure a decent business man would have little trouble raising funds and attracting shareholders through the BES schemes etc

    Easier said then done. Raising capital for something like this is not easy at all. Its still seen as a risk by many(mostly because they dont understand it), and so for the most part the only people who take a risk are people who want to do it not for the money but for the end result or to add something to their heritage. Its a shame.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    syklops wrote: »
    Easier said then done. Raising capital for something like this is not easy at all. Its still seen as a risk by many(mostly because they dont understand it), and so for the most part the only people who take a risk are people who want to do it not for the money but for the end result or to add something to their heritage. Its a shame.

    i see your point but take the BES scheme for example, this was party how Cooley was funded, using Cooley as an example would be a (relatively) easy way to sell a new distillery to BES investors with cash.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    bamboozle wrote: »
    i see your point but take the BES scheme for example, this was party how Cooley was funded, using Cooley as an example would be a (relatively) easy way to sell a new distillery to BES investors with cash.

    If you can find me some BES investors, I will introduce them to some people trying to get distilleries, not just for whiskey but for other things off the ground.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    syklops wrote: »
    If you can find me some BES investors, I will introduce them to some people trying to get distilleries, not just for whiskey but for other things off the ground.

    wel for starters

    http://www.bes.ie/

    Davy's 2011 BES scheme has 3m to invest for starters. This will be followed by a 2012 scheme with similar amounts to invest.

    http://www.bes.ie/investor-information/default.asp


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    bamboozle wrote: »
    wel for starters

    http://www.bes.ie/

    Davy's 2011 BES scheme has 3m to invest for starters. This will be followed by a 2012 scheme with similar amounts to invest.

    http://www.bes.ie/investor-information/default.asp

    3M? How much do you think a distillery needs to get up and running? Considering unlike most businesses, you dont get any kind of income at all for 3-4 years. Buy or lease site, build buildings, hire staff and pay them for 3+ years, buy ingredients, bottles, etc.

    Sorry, I am not being negative on purpose, I know from near first hand experience, that you can have a site ready to go, and Charlie McCreevy can be shaking your hand and the IDa is taking you to lunch, but until someone comes along with great big wads of cash, the project can't get off the ground.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    Can a whiskey distillery make other spirits that don't require 3+ years e.g. vodka during the initial maturation stage? Or is it too different a process?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    syklops wrote: »
    3M? How much do you think a distillery needs to get up and running? Considering unlike most businesses, you dont get any kind of income at all for 3-4 years. Buy or lease site, build buildings, hire staff and pay them for 3+ years, buy ingredients, bottles, etc.

    Sorry, I am not being negative on purpose, I know from near first hand experience, that you can have a site ready to go, and Charlie McCreevy can be shaking your hand and the IDa is taking you to lunch, but until someone comes along with great big wads of cash, the project can't get off the ground.

    didnt think i needed a business plan ready to back up my comments :rolleyes:

    like i said for starters there's the BES schemes, the big 4 audit firms have wealth management departments with wealthy clients with money to invest, Davy, Goodbody and the other brokerages will have clients with money to invest.

    With the attention the sale of Cooley made, the attraction of investing in a new distillery would i presume be quiet positive at the moment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Brockagh


    bamboozle wrote: »
    I'd be surprised if the Beam deal didnt perclude the Teeling family in becoming involved in a new distillary for at least a few years.

    Still the time is ideal for a new distillery. Despite the set-up costs i'm sure a decent business man would have little trouble raising funds and attracting shareholders through the BES schemes etc

    Can the preclude a whole family from getting involved in a new distillery? I don't know the details of the deal and usually this is the case, of course. It could be that Beam have nothing to fear from a startup distillery.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    bamboozle wrote: »
    didnt think i needed a business plan ready to back up my comments :rolleyes:

    like i said for starters there's the BES schemes, the big 4 audit firms have wealth management departments with wealthy clients with money to invest, Davy, Goodbody and the other brokerages will have clients with money to invest.

    With the attention the sale of Cooley made, the attraction of investing in a new distillery would i presume be quiet positive at the moment.

    Sorry, I wasnt getting at you. I just happen to know about 3 different people who are trying to build distilleries or who have tried in the past and they have not found anyone to invest. I wasn't just being difficult.
    Can a whiskey distillery make other spirits that don't require 3+ years e.g. vodka during the initial maturation stage?

    Yes you can, a lot of companies do that. AFAIK, HLM is not planning to do that though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Brockagh wrote: »
    Can the preclude a whole family from getting involved in a new distillery? I don't know the details of the deal and usually this is the case, of course. It could be that Beam have nothing to fear from a startup distillery.

    Speaking strictly hypothetically, non-competitive clauses in such deals usually have time limits. There is also a significant lead-in time to producing whiskey. Think of identifying a suitable site, getting PP, licence, architectural work, construction, ordering and construction of stills, and you're a couple of years in already at a minimum before anything rolls off the still.
    Follow that up with three years waiting for the first whiskey to mature, and that's at least five years to produce the youngest possible whiskey. Non-competitive clauses in many cases would have, by that stage, expired.
    Also, I entirely concur with you that Beam have nothing to fear from a startup, nor do Bushmills nor IDL. None of them are quaking in their boots about Grant's large plans for Tullamore, so why should they fear a much smaller operation working to come online over a longer timeframe, were such to occur?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    irish_goat wrote: »
    Can a whiskey distillery make other spirits that don't require 3+ years e.g. vodka during the initial maturation stage?
    Yes, which can be used in "Irish cream" (i.e. Bailey's type things) etc.

    The only way Longueville House can be sidestepping the distillation legislation is to do the distilling in another country.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,513 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    n97 mini wrote: »
    The only way Longueville House can be sidestepping the distillation legislation is to do the distilling in another country.

    Nope, they distil onsite in Mallow.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Brockagh


    Or you can make gin, all sorts of stuff. Most of the new distilleries sell unmatured whisky. British Spirit or white dog, raw whiskey, poitin... Not whiskey yet, but lots of people are interested in it. Usually for over-the-top prices.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Brockagh


    Glenfiddich or Glenlivet also have a tiny still that they got special permission to use. More a tourist thing or a demonstration. Can't really remember.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Brockagh wrote: »
    Glenfiddich or Glenlivet also have a tiny still that they got special permission to use. More a tourist thing or a demonstration. Can't really remember.

    So have Loch Ewe, but they went through horror to get the licence, and that's in a different jurisdiction in any case.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Brockagh


    Distilleries don't have to be fancy, look at Abhainn Dearg. I'll fish out some pictures of that one. A distillery in a shed.

    And there's the Smogen distillery in Sweden. Not sure of the spelling. Very small operations.

    Of course there's all the other costs, for staff, grain, energy, bond, insurance... It's certainly something a brewery could do. Beamish would be ideal...

    I priced stills a few years ago for about 50k. I'm sure you could do better than that.

    Lots and lots of risks involved, of course.

    Edit: Here's that picture...

    http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/02/22/d0/be/abhainn-dearg.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭IrishWhiskeyCha


    The problem in getting investment for a distillery is the long term investment. An investment in a whiskey distillery will not begin to show proper financial results for at least 10 years and the majority of "real" investors are not interested in such long term investments. As anything you sell for the first few years will only cover running costs, if your lucky. If you look at Cooley, in reality it took them over 20years before it showed any decent return on investment. How many investors are willing to slog that long. Remember you still have to successfully market you whiskey, and if you get that wrong it is one expensive mistake. And it is because of these factors it is not easy to get investment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,386 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Brockagh wrote: »
    Glenfiddich or Glenlivet also have a tiny still that they got special permission to use. More a tourist thing or a demonstration.
    Probably is. I remember hearing some winemaker(s) who was able to sell his stuff without duty as it was a tourist attraction. I think one may have been in galway, one was definitely in the UK and customs or the police discovered loads of wine kits in his bins, he was just making homebrew wine with kits and flogging it to the tourists, far higher output than his vineyard could have handled.

    Its a shame its not legal here, in some countries where it is legal to distil without a licence they just limit the volume of your still, I think in Italy your still can be no bigger than 5L.

    Homedistillers will often add oak direct to the bottle so it does age in storage. I think this would be a very clever idea for a start up distillery.

    you can see oak chips & small barrels here
    http://www.brewhaus.com/Oak-Barrels-C101.aspx

    Some lovely mini stills here
    http://www.highland-spirit.com/acatalog/Small_Distilling_Units.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    rubadub wrote: »
    Probably is. I remember hearing some winemaker(s) who was able to sell his stuff without duty as it was a tourist attraction. I think one may have been in galway, one was definitely in the UK and customs or the police discovered loads of wine kits in his bins, he was just making homebrew wine with kits and flogging it to the tourists, far higher output than his vineyard could have handled.

    Its a shame its not legal here, in some countries where it is legal to distil without a licence they just limit the volume of your still, I think in Italy your still can be no bigger than 5L.

    Homedistillers will often add oak direct to the bottle so it does age in storage. I think this would be a very clever idea for a start up distillery.

    you can see oak chips & small barrels here
    http://www.brewhaus.com/Oak-Barrels-C101.aspx

    Some lovely mini stills here
    http://www.highland-spirit.com/acatalog/Small_Distilling_Units.html

    A friend of mine makes his own moonshine(he is in the US), he filters it through charcoal to give it a smoky flavour and he can come up with some really quite smooth and drinkable single-malt-esque drinks. I'd love to give it a go myself. Obviously you can't call it whiskey, as it must be aged for 3 years before you can call it that, but even so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 651 ✭✭✭Condatis


    Where do the Clontarf people get their whiskey?

    I don't think that they distill themselves.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Brockagh


    rubadub wrote: »
    Probably is. I remember hearing some winemaker(s) who was able to sell his stuff without duty as it was a tourist attraction. I think one may have been in galway, one was definitely in the UK and customs or the police discovered loads of wine kits in his bins, he was just making homebrew wine with kits and flogging it to the tourists, far higher output than his vineyard could have handled.

    Its a shame its not legal here, in some countries where it is legal to distil without a licence they just limit the volume of your still, I think in Italy your still can be no bigger than 5L.

    Homedistillers will often add oak direct to the bottle so it does age in storage. I think this would be a very clever idea for a start up distillery.

    you can see oak chips & small barrels here
    http://www.brewhaus.com/Oak-Barrels-C101.aspx

    Some lovely mini stills here
    http://www.highland-spirit.com/acatalog/Small_Distilling_Units.html

    You wouldn't be able to call it whiskey if you put wood chips in the bottle. But you could sell it as something, of course.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Brockagh


    Condatis wrote: »
    Where do the Clontarf people get their whiskey?

    I don't think that they distill themselves.

    Clontarf used to source from Cooley, but now it's Bushmills, I think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,386 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    syklops wrote: »
    Obviously you can't call it whiskey, as it must be aged for 3 years before you can call it that, but even so.
    Brockagh wrote: »
    You wouldn't be able to call it whiskey if you put wood chips in the bottle.

    Is it that you can't call it "Whiskey" at all, or just not specifically "Irish Whiskey".

    here is the law, which specifically keeps saying "irish whiskey",
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0033/print.html

    It also states it must be in wooden casks, so even if the oaked bottles were 3 years old they would not pass.

    The highly rated book "making pure corn whiskey" shows how to make a whiskey with no maturing at all.

    By adding oak chips you can have a much higher ratio of whiskey to oak than you get in a barrel.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Brockagh


    Actually, maybe you have something there. Doesn't say anything about wood chips in that law. In Scotland you can't do it, I believe. John Glasier matured whisky with an oak cross in the barrell, and the SWA came down hard on him. Maybe the law was changed there after that, I'm not sure.

    In Scotland it has to be oak casks, but I dont' think there's anything to say you can't use different wood in Ireland - not that you'd want to.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,556 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Brockagh wrote: »
    Actually, maybe you have something there. Doesn't say anything about wood chips in that law. In Scotland you can't do it, I believe. John Glasier matured whisky with an oak cross in the barrell, and the SWA came down hard on him. Maybe the law was changed there after that, I'm not sure.

    In Scotland it has to be oak casks, but I dont' think there's anything to say you can't use different wood in Ireland - not that you'd want to.

    Has anyone ever tried it? I would imagine that different woods would give a different flavour to the whiskey.


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