Graphics and Case Upgrade

NiallFH

Considering a few upgrades to the computer, the current set up is:

Power Supply: Corsair Builder Series 500 W PSU
CPU: AMD Phenom x4 965 3.2 GHz CPU
RAM: 4 GB RAM (Motherboard cant take anymore)
Motherboard: Asus Motherboard, I'm not 100% sure on the model, will need to double check when I get home but its nothing flash, a £40 board probably.
Graphics Card: Nvidia GTS 450

Its for gaming so I wont list the HDD or Dvd drive, they arent important to me.

I mostly play WoW and a bit of LoL. Atm I can comfortably run WoW in busy area's with the grpahics on good, want to try upgrade and push it on to Ultra.

Im thinking my GPU would be the biggest bottleneck so would want to upgrade it, im looking at the Nvidia GTX 560 TI. Would this cut it or would I need to spend more?

Also after a case, want something in red and black, anyone know anywhere good to get one?

Will be shipping to the North btw, Armagh.

ShadowHearth

What's your budget? 6870 would set you back around 150eu. Great card amd won't bottleneck your system. You might chance it and find second hand 6950 too.

If you willing to spend around 100eu on case, then nzxt phantom comes in full red with black details. Nice case.

uncle_sam_ie

My picks would be, http://www2.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=45198&agid=1004
and
http://www2.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=52114&agid=631

But yeah, what's your budget?

NiallFH

Cheers for the input guys, looking to spend around £200/250EU.

Reckon the 6870 is better than the 560 TI then? Also is it worth upgrading to from a GTS 450 or would the FPS increase be small?

Do Hardwarversand still only take bank transfers? I found it to be difficult to do before, they needed to recieve the money within the week but my bank cant do it that fast.

Serephucus

Um... a GTS 450 will get 56FPS even at 2560x1600, and I'd assume that you don't have a monitor that big. It's your CPU that's holding you back.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Axle/GeForce_GTS_450_OC/21.html

uncle_sam_ie

Something is holding it back because I was playing WoW with a Phenom 9950 BE and HD 5770 on Ultra.

NiallFH

Serephucus wrote: »

I'd assume that you don't have a monitor that big. It's your CPU that's holding you back.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Axle/GeForce_GTS_450_OC/21.html

I do have a pretty big monitor, probably should have mentioned that, its 27", the one linked below:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003ZMP1LI/ref=oh_o04_s00_i00_details

I can see FPS of 50 and higher on ultra when in lower crowded area's but I do pre made battlegrounds at times and in some there can be 80 people on screen and I have to drop to low and I get about 20 FPS.

I didnt think the CPU would be a problem as the GPU is very entry level.


Those benchmarks linked arent great because they are for the last expansion also they dont say what they are doing at the time, being engaged in combat with 25 other people and standing in the middle of nowhere afk will see very different FPS

ShadowHearth

CPU is not a bottleneck in this case, it's gpu.

Serephucus

But mostly with a bunch of people around, that's CPU calculations, not graphics. Don't get me wrong, a graphics upgrade probably wouldn't hurt, but I still think a CPU upgrade will do more for you.

Also, by the looks of it your monitor is only 1920x1080, so that's fine.

You proved it yourself. You're in a busy area, you turn the graphics down to low, and you still get 20FPS - it's your CPU. If you're not sure, leave Task Manager open on the Performance tab, and have a look at your CPU usage after a really busy part.

ShadowHearth

Serephucus wrote: »

But mostly with a bunch of people around, that's CPU calculations, not graphics. Don't get me wrong, a graphics upgrade probably wouldn't hurt, but I still think a CPU upgrade will do more for you.

Also, by the looks of it your monitor is only 1920x1080, so that's fine.

You proved it yourself. You're in a busy area, you turn the graphics down to low, and you still get 20FPS - it's your CPU. If you're not sure, leave Task Manager open on the Performance tab, and have a look at your CPU usage after a really busy part.

I played with q6600 and 8800gt and I had problems at places like stormwind bank, but after upgrade to 6870 it all fixed up. Now that amd processor will be even better q6600.

NiallFH

Serephucus wrote: »

But mostly with a bunch of people around, that's CPU calculations, not graphics. Don't get me wrong, a graphics upgrade probably wouldn't hurt, but I still think a CPU upgrade will do more for you.

Also, by the looks of it your monitor is only 1920x1080, so that's fine.

You proved it yourself. You're in a busy area, you turn the graphics down to low, and you still get 20FPS - it's your CPU. If you're not sure, leave Task Manager open on the Performance tab, and have a look at your CPU usage after a really busy part.

Pretty sure it is 1920x1080 in work at the minute though so cant be sure.

No, sorry what I meant was, for example in a slightly less busy scenario, me and say 10 others I will get around 50 FPS.

If I'm running with around 80 people it will be unplayable on Good so I drop to low and can get around 20 FPS. So with more people dropping the graphics settings does help me.

Would you still say its the CPU? If so I would an i5 2500k do the trick? Only problem there is I would probably have to upgrade my mobo too

Serephucus

I couldn't say for sure, but it would be my guess, yes.

Try monitoring your CPU and GPU usage. Task Manager will do CPU, MSI Afterburner will do GPU. Post back screenshots.

ShadowHearth

NiallFH wrote: »

Pretty sure it is 1920x1080 in work at the minute though so cant be sure.

No, sorry what I meant was, for example in a slightly less busy scenario, me and say 10 others I will get around 50 FPS.

If I'm running with around 80 people it will be unplayable on Good so I drop to low and can get around 20 FPS. So with more people dropping the graphics settings does help me.

Would you still say its the CPU? If so I would an i5 2500k do the trick? Only problem there is I would probably have to upgrade my mobo too

Well you have two camps here now.

Like I said above I used q6600 with 8800gt and had problems, then upgraded to 6870 and it was unreal difference.
I just checked and your CPU is better then q6600 by quite a bit, plus you can overclock it so make it even better. So your gpu is a problem.
You will need about 300++ eu for 2500k setup, which will leave you Iin same position - bottlenecked gpu.

NiallFH

I'm inclined to agree Shadowhearth but there is no harm in testing to be sure I will have to monitor both when im home from work to see whats causing the bottleneck.

I always expected to have to upgrade the GPU I bought what I could afford at the time and it has done well by me but I want more performance now for MoP, time to push for Glad rank in arena lol.

I will get that MSI afterburner tonight and check it out Serephucus, would you recommend monitoring them under a heavy load?

Also just incase anyone knows about Hardwarversand can you pay by credit or debit card these days or is it still only bank transfer?

ShadowHearth

NiallFH wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree Shadowhearth but there is no harm in testing to be sure I will have to monitor both when im home from work to see whats causing the bottleneck.

I always expected to have to upgrade the GPU I bought what I could afford at the time and it has done well by me but I want more performance now for MoP, time to push for Glad rank in arena lol.

I will get that MSI afterburner tonight and check it out Serephucus, would you recommend monitoring them under a heavy load?

Also just incase anyone knows about Hardwarversand can you pay by credit or debit card these days or is it still only bank transfer?

Do you have 2 monitors? Then just usage simple widget that comes with wondows. It shows how much ram and CPU is used at the moment, or just use task mananger and recourse monitor.

For gpu load afterburner has on screen display option. Put on the gpu usage and fps to be shown.

Serephucus

Well it wouldn't make much sense to test it in an open field with nothing going on. Try playing on ultra (or whatever your usual settings are) somewherre non-busy, then somewhere busy, then drop graphics settings to low, and try non-busy and busy again, and see what your usage is like at those four times.

HWVS can accept PayPal as well, but they'll charge an extra 3%.

ShadowHearth

Serephucus wrote: »

Well it wouldn't make much sense to test it in an open field with nothing going on. Try playing on ultra (or whatever your usual settings are) somewherre non-busy, then somewhere busy, then drop graphics settings to low, and try non-busy and busy again, and see what your usage is like at those four times.

HWVS can accept PayPal as well, but they'll charge an extra 3%.

Well of he is getting 20fps on low in busy places, then how much is he getting on ultra?

From personal experience ( yup I am a sad sad person ) wow on ultra does not give much of visual improvement. Even now with my pc, which is really not bad by today's standart, is going around 60 fps at stormwind bank on ultra. so in busy hectic battlegrounds it's normal to see fps go so much down.
Even still wow os not that much dependant on CPU as it looks like. Starcraft 2 is different story.

uncle_sam_ie

ShadowHearth wrote: »

For gpu load afterburner has on screen display option. Put on the gpu usage and fps to be shown.

I didn't know that. Thank's for the tip.:)

uncle_sam_ie

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Well of he is getting 20fps on low in busy places, then how much is he getting on ultra?

From personal experience ( yup I am a sad sad person ) wow on ultra does not give much of visual improvement. Even now with my pc, which is really not bad by today's standart, is going around 60 fps at stormwind bank on ultra. so in busy hectic battlegrounds it's normal to see fps go so much down.
Even still wow os not that much dependant on CPU as it looks like. Starcraft 2 is different story.

Has the 64bit WoW version made a difference?

Serephucus

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Well of he is getting 20fps on low in busy places, then how much is he getting on ultra?

That's a very good question, and will be one of the things to watch for to see if he is GPU-limited.

ShadowHearth

well if OP will be very nice to me and will compliment my big E-penis, then i could fire up my old q6600 with 6870 and check what fps i am getting on ultra 1920x1080!

Serephucus

Well if you were doing that, I'd check your CPU usage more than anything. Your 6870 is more powerful than the GTS 450 by a fair bit, so all you'd be interested in there is how much stress is on your CPU.

ShadowHearth

Serephucus wrote: »

Well if you were doing that, I'd check your CPU usage more than anything. Your 6870 is more powerful than the GTS 450 by a fair bit, so all you'd be interested in there is how much stress is on your CPU.

well in all fairness, is he aiming to improve his playing experience for the smallest cost, or just update system to newer cooler components. If GPU upgrade helps in his case, why would CPU even be something to look in to? The worst component in that system is GPU, and switching GPU will make the most benefit for lowest price to him. surely he can splash money on lovely 2500k, but he will still be with old crapy gpu which wont be able to push it self hard, because of GPU bottleneck.

it would not be so obvious, if i would not had been in same position myself.

NiallFH

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Do you have 2 monitors?

Nope, just the one.

Serephucus wrote: »

Well it wouldn't make much sense to test it in an open field with nothing going on. Try playing on ultra (or whatever your usual settings are) somewherre non-busy, then somewhere busy, then drop graphics settings to low, and try non-busy and busy again, and see what your usage is like at those four times.

HWVS can accept PayPal as well, but they'll charge an extra 3%.

I'll test it in a few different scenario's when I get home this evening. Has that always been the case? They didnt offer me that option around november time last year.

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Well of he is getting 20fps on low in busy places, then how much is he getting on ultra?

When I say busy I dont mean Stormwind type, on Ultra there I would get maybe 30 FPS. By busy I mean an AV Pre made where the full 80 players are all on screen fighting at once.

ShadowHearth wrote: »

well if OP will be very nice to me and will compliment my big E-penis, then i could fire up my old q6600 with 6870 and check what fps i am getting on ultra 1920x1080!

I hear its beautiful and what it lacks in length it makes up for in girth

ShadowHearth

NiallFH wrote: »

Nope, just the one.



I'll test it in a few different scenario's when I get home this evening. Has that always been the case? They didnt offer me that option around november time last year.



When I say busy I dont mean Stormwind type, on Ultra there I would get maybe 30 FPS. By busy I mean an AV Pre made where the full 80 players are all on screen fighting at once.



I hear its beautiful and what it lacks in length it makes up for in girth

so you want me to go fire up the old girl so? check fps?if you would be on same server, we could be there at same time and see difference real time.

Tea_Bag

isn't wow single threaded? an easy test is to OC to around 4Ghz and see if there is a noticeable difference. but I'd only do that if task manager showed a 100% CPU usage in those intense scenarios.

NiallFH

ShadowHearth wrote: »

so you want me to go fire up the old girl so? check fps?if you would be on same server, we could be there at same time and see difference real time.

Nah man, appreciate the offer but wouldnt ask you to go to the trouble.

I can just test the stress in my CPU on busy area's and see how it goes, fairly convinced its the GPU because I run multiple programs at once along with WoW and closing them has no effect on wow performance.

ShadowHearth

NiallFH wrote: »

Nah man, appreciate the offer but wouldnt ask you to go to the trouble.

I can just test the stress in my CPU on busy area's and see how it goes, fairly convinced its the GPU because I run multiple programs at once along with WoW and closing them has no effect on wow performance.

no problem there bud.

anywya, let us know when you done the testing, though i know the answer already .

NiallFH

Ok so I'm home and just going to check the FPS and CPU usage now, standing in a fairly crowded area.

On Low:

FPS: 30 Fps
CPU Usage: 40%

On Good:

FPS: 24 FPS
CPU Usage: 40%

On Ultra:

FPS: 15 FPS
CPU Usage: 40%

The CPU Usage for them all was the same but it did spike every now and then jumping up to 60 or 70% then back down again, did it maybe more often on Ultra but never stayed high or went over 70%.

Should I take from this that the GPU Upgrade is the way to go?

Serephucus

How are you getting 40%? Is this 40% total? Because that would mean it's maxing out one core, and the other 15% is background processes.

Tea_Bag

and what's the GPU usage for the same tests? you can see them in MSI after burner on the graphs on the right. it'll also say the Max usage it hit, as well as other info.

NiallFH

Serephucus wrote: »

How are you getting 40%? Is this 40% total? Because that would mean it's maxing out one core, and the other 15% is background processes.

No idea, I'm taking the 40% from along the bottom line of Task Manager, I had some virus trouble recently and usually get AVG popping up saying it blocked something or Spyware terminator saying it blocked something so there could still be something still kicking about on the comp.

Serephucus

Ok, you're in the wrong tab. Go to Performance across the top, and you'll get a usage graph per core. Best off just taking a screenshot of that right after a busy section and posting it here.

NiallFH

I went to a busy area and stood there for about 2 minutes to let it settle, I had wow maximized (windows mode) with the task manager on top, heres the screenshot:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/cpurb.png/

ShadowHearth

NiallFH wrote: »

I went to a busy area and stood there for about 2 minutes to let it settle, I had wow maximized (windows mode) with the task manager on top, heres the screenshot:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/cpurb.png/

and was the GPU usage 99%?

i still cant believe we actually checking all this....

Serephucus

Hmm... How are you with overclocking?

Edit: Yeah, GPU usage first actually.

Edit edit: @Shadow: Why not? I'd figure if you're going to spend €200 on an upgrade, you'd want to spend five minutes finding out if you need it first.

ShadowHearth

Serephucus wrote: »

Hmm... How are you with overclocking?

Edit: Yeah, GPU usage first actually.

Edit edit: @Shadow: Why not? I'd figure if you're going to spend €200 on an upgrade, you'd want to spend five minutes finding out if you need it first.

well, i gave real world example. i was there, did that, i tried it and sorted it! its a GPU problem!!!

Serephucus

Or it could have been a driver problem with your NVIDIA card at the time, or maybe the game got a patch or something. That's even assuming your old spec performed the same as his, which it doesn't, so he should check anyway.

It's probably a GPU problem, but I personally wouldn't run and spend €250 or whatever on a new card without being sure that I needed one first.

NiallFH

Ok, I opened up MSI Afterburner and went back to the same area I was in before, let it run for about a minute or two and took this screenshot (I dont see any option in it to run a test or anything)

Also I've never overclocked but I reckon I could learn, hadn't built a PC before this one either lol.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/gput.png/

The odd CPU usage is probably down to viruses, having trouble shifting them, working on it currently if I manage it I will re test the CPU

ShadowHearth

NiallFH wrote: »

Ok, I opened up MSI Afterburner and went back to the same area I was in before, let it run for about a minute or two and took this screenshot (I dont see any option in it to run a test or anything)

Also I've never overclocked but I reckon I could learn, hadn't built a PC before this one either lol.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/gput.png/

The odd CPU usage is probably down to viruses, having trouble shifting them, working on it currently if I manage it I will re test the CPU

that does not make much sense. you got very bad FPS in games, but it does not max out CPU and GPU. i am prety sure my gtx 680 is 99% on usage while in wow...

Serephucus

Yeah, you're CPU-limited. That, or you have v-sync enabled or something weird.

The CPU usage isn't viruses... they're either removed or they're not. They don't use your CPU all the time trying to be removed.


You don't have v-sync enabled, do you?

Tea_Bag

its what I suspected. wow is a really badly coded game, and is single threaded at the same time. I think it's time to OC the CPU. its easy enough. is it on the stock cooler?

and clean up that PC first man. are you comfortable with a clean windows install?

ShadowHearth

Serephucus wrote: »

Yeah, you're CPU-limited. That, or you have v-sync enabled or something weird.

The CPU usage isn't viruses... they're either removed or they're not. They don't use your CPU all the time trying to be removed.


You don't have v-sync enabled, do you?

funny enough i am in SW bank myself now. my cpu usage on 50% and gpu on 50%, but Frame rate is at 30fps ( vsync on ).

wow can be brutal at times.

Serephucus

TURN V-SYNC OFF!

With v-sync on, in a place where you would have got 59FPS, you'll get 30. In a place where you would get 29FPS, you'll get 15.

FlyingIrishMan

Serephucus wrote: »

TURN V-SYNC OFF!

With v-sync on, in a place where you would have got 59FPS, you'll get 30. In a place where you would get 29FPS, you'll get 15.

Is that with all games or just WoW?

Serephucus

All games.

The whole thing with v-sync is that your framerate has to be (x)2 for it to work, so 120/60/30/15. That's why it's only ever recommended with games that will easily pass this, and why NVIDIA has introduced adaptive v-sync*.

*For anyone interested, the new beta drivers (301.24 or something) enable adaptive v-sync for 8-series cards or later.

NiallFH

ShadowHearth wrote: »

that does not make much sense. you got very bad FPS in games, but it does not max out CPU and GPU. i am prety sure my gtx 680 is 99% on usage while in wow...

Found it weird myself that it doesn't seem to be pushing the GPU at all

Serephucus wrote: »

Yeah, you're CPU-limited. That, or you have v-sync enabled or something weird.

V-Sync is disabled

Tea_Bag wrote: »

its what I suspected. wow is a really badly coded game, and is single threaded at the same time. I think it's time to OC the CPU. its easy enough. is it on the stock cooler?

and clean up that PC first man. are you comfortable with a clean windows install?

So basically, as wow only uses the one core and my comps on 40%, the 25% is wow maxing a core and the 15% is other programs?

It is on a stock cooler, isn't it a bit risky OC'ing though?

It's not really an option because I don't have my windows CD key, I tried a few programs to get it but they didn't work

ShadowHearth wrote: »

funny enough i am in SW bank myself now. my cpu usage on 50% and gpu on 50%, but Frame rate is at 30fps ( vsync on ).

wow can be brutal at times.

Death on Outland where there's 20 odd thousand Alliance lol

ShadowHearth

NiallFH wrote: »

Found it weird myself that it doesn't seem to be pushing the GPU at all



V-Sync is disabled



So basically, as wow only uses the one core and my comps on 40%, the 25% is wow maxing a core and the 15% is other programs?

It is on a stock cooler, isn't it a bit risky OC'ing though?

It's not really an option because I don't have my windows CD key, I tried a few programs to get it but they didn't work



Death on Outland where there's 20 odd thousand Alliance lol

i remember the opening of outland. omfg! there were like thousands of people. it was like 0.0001 fps

Serephucus

You can overclock a bit on the stock cooler probably. I'm not familiar with AMD systems, so I'm not sure what you can get out of it. The stock cooler is fine for your purposes - testing to see if you are in fact CPU limited, to be certain. If it turns out you are, you can look into a better cooler, or a new CPU or something.

Have a look on Overclock.net. They've got a specific overclocking section for AMD chips.

ShadowHearth

I would still suggest spending that money on 6870 and better cooler for ocing.

Gpu will be more beneficial, and it will do difference. I did helped me a lot.

It's hard to tell how badly CPU is bottlenecked as even my system is not pushed to the limit and I am getting on 30 fps at SW bank. And we are talking about 2500k 4.2ghz with gtx 680 here. It's wow being shiet, not CPU.

NiallFH

Serephucus wrote: »

You can overclock a bit on the stock cooler probably. I'm not familiar with AMD systems, so I'm not sure what you can get out of it. The stock cooler is fine for your purposes - testing to see if you are in fact CPU limited, to be certain. If it turns out you are, you can look into a better cooler, or a new CPU or something.

Have a look on Overclock.net. They've got a specific overclocking section for AMD chips.

Going to look into that, think I will just order a new cooler before I start, but will need the new case first, not a lot of room in mine for a bigger/better cooler.

ShadowHearth wrote: »

I would still suggest spending that money on 6870 and better cooler for ocing.

Gpu will be more beneficial, and it will do difference. I did helped me a lot.

It's hard to tell how badly CPU is bottlenecked as even my system is not pushed to the limit and I am getting on 30 fps at SW bank. And we are talking about 2500k 4.2ghz with gtx 680 here. It's wow being shiet, not CPU.

Going to get the CPU OC'd then I will get the new GPU.

Need to fix my comp first though, think the windows re install is going to have to happen -.-

Cheers for all the help guys, been much appreciated