External insulation - query re plinth

Brangers

Hi all, not sure if I'm posting in the correct place, but here it goes! Last October we got external insulation put on our new detached house. As we had never lived in it we weren't that familiar with the look of it and it's only now I have noticed that there is a major overhang between wall
And plinth, perhaps 4 inches or so and I took out the auctioneers brochure and can see that this was not the case on the original external
Finish - normal overhang of an inch or so. I am
Assuming that the contractor has pulled a fast one on me and has not done the job properly on the plinth. I am assuming this was to make his life easier as he wouldn't have to deal with the gullies around the house, but I need to check with all of ye before I take it up with him. As the job was in October he has been paid in full and we have gotten our grant. But I'm
Livid besides cold bridging it also looks very odd and has been commented on. Any advice much appreciated...I also feel I'm
Going to need to have some armour when I approach my contractor to get him to finish the job properly - any suggestions on this would be vey much appreciated. I'm just disgusted.

heinbloed

Post again tomorrow, if possible add some pictures.

Brangers

Ok I'll put some pics up - Thank you

Brangers

Hope the pics will give you a better idea. I've put a stone render on the plinth at the front of the house. You can see from the pic with the old and new what he's done with the plinth it's a white color insulation - not that thick grey stuff. Many thanks for your time

heinbloed

The pictures are to small to identify details, however at the third picture we can see that the external insulation is not fully covering the wall.
The wall's footing isn't done.

Read the contract, get a civil engineer to write a report stating what needs to be done. And get the quality of the entire job examined once the engineer is at the site.

Brangers

Thanks for that, will get onto a civil engineer. I
Can email u pics directly if that's better?

Brangers

Just thought - is there any particular reason why he wouldn't have done the bottom part? Thanks

aujopimur

That's the correct way to install external insulation, personally I'm not a big fan of this type of insulation.

heinbloed

If it was agreed on in the contract not to do the bottom part of the wall then it should not be done.
It's cheaper/more profitable to do as little as possible for an agreed sum ('corner cutting').

How is the rest of the walls treated, pipes,sewers, cables etc.?

Brangers

Ah, this was a major rush job on my part and I hate to admit but there was no
Contract to sign! But I just presumed it would have been done. The rest of the wall are fine. This is the only problem. I had mentioned to contractor that I wanted to cover the plinth in stone so perhaps this is why he left it? However as you can see the stone render is only couple cm thick, so it doesn't make sense to leave so much room
Why do you say it's the correct way to do it? To have less/no insulation where the wall meets the floor

janmc

You might be better with this in Construction and Planning forum.

It does look unfinished in my opinion, but I'm not really sure what you can do at this stage. It's paid for, and as you didn't raise it as an issue last October when it was done, to be honest it's quite late to be complaining now. Worth bringing it up maybe, but I wouldn't hold out too much hope.

Out of curiosity, why didn't you bring it up at the time? It's an expensive job to get done, you would expect to be happy with it before handing over 20K or whatever the cost was. And can you explain more about putting stone on the plinth, maybe it was a misunderstanding and he thought you were doing the plinth separately.

deandean

OP i got a quote for external insulation and the proposal was to do as is done on your house. I think is is quite normal. The ext insulation has to go down below the inside floor level. Anything else is just cosmetic.

paddy147

heinbloed wrote: »

If it was agreed on in the contract not to do the bottom part of the wall then it should not be done.
It's cheaper/more profitable to do as little as possible for an agreed sum ('corner cutting').

How is the rest of the walls treated, pipes,sewers, cables etc.?

Do you "ever ever" stop slandering people and companies,with your posts on this forum??:rolleyes:

JohnnieK

Brangers wrote: »

Hi all, not sure if I'm posting in the correct place, but here it goes! Last October we got external insulation put on our new detached house. As we had never lived in it we weren't that familiar with the look of it and it's only now I have noticed that there is a major overhang between wall
And plinth, perhaps 4 inches or so and I took out the auctioneers brochure and can see that this was not the case on the original external
Finish - normal overhang of an inch or so. I am
Assuming that the contractor has pulled a fast one on me and has not done the job properly on the plinth. I am assuming this was to make his life easier as he wouldn't have to deal with the gullies around the house, but I need to check with all of ye before I take it up with him. As the job was in October he has been paid in full and we have gotten our grant. But I'm
Livid besides cold bridging it also looks very odd and has been commented on. Any advice much appreciated...I also feel I'm
Going to need to have some armour when I approach my contractor to get him to finish the job properly - any suggestions on this would be vey much appreciated. I'm just disgusted.

If recived a grant then the road I would take is to contact SEAI and request an inspection of the installation. They have strict guide lines as to how the installation is to be completed and finished and if there is anything wrong a re-works will be issued to the contractor and he will have to rectify with in a number of weeks or he will be sanctioned.

Ignore unqualified people:D:D giving blasé advice on this forum and speak to SEAI.

Spread

JohnnieK wrote: »

If recived a grant then the road I would take is to contact SEAI and request an inspection of the installation. They have strict guide lines as to how the installation is to be completed and finished and if there is anything wrong a re-works will be issued to the contractor and he will have to rectify with in a number of weeks or he will be sanctioned.

Ignore unqualified people:D:D giving blasé advice on this forum and speak to SEAI.

Most people in this forum are unqualified. You can generally tell by their postings. I would take notice of what Heinbloed says ......... he knows what he's talking about. Blunt but right. Then you get other sparrowfarts who like to have a go ......... just to bolster their own insecurities. DIY Phds!

JohnnieK

Unfortunatly we don't know if he does now what he is talking about or not. He is on meny threads on boards and comes accross as authoritative with his posts even when professionals contradict him, and when asked how he is an authority on any subject he disappears.

No one hear nows if the installation is right or wrong unless there is an installer here who can vouch. In fairness it does look a little unfinished but we don't now the ins and outs of the building fabric. Any one i have come accross when upgrading heating system have been finished to the ground.

The OP should contact SEAI as they have stricked guidlines and they will know from inspection if it's right or wrong.

.243

ive seen a couple timber framed houses (german imported) done in this way with the external insulation protrude over the plinth,
but id say the reasoning behind this is because the floor level inside the house is the plinth line outside,
but as really the best thing to do is ask someone who is quailifed(definitly not heinbloed,who is like a panda bear in here,"eats shoots and leaves") before going back to question the contractors workmanship

heinbloed

Several posters here seem to have ignored the OPs question.

There is no timber frame house imported from Germay with external wall insulation, .234. Certainly not with EPS.
Name the company and I'll look after them (and they after you), there are minimum standards to which German builders/timber frame manufacturers have to adhere to. EWI with EPS is illegal on timber frame buildings in Germany, as far as I know that is also the case in the entire of Europe and many other countries as well.


The dew point has to be outside the wall therefore the external insulation has to be over the entire wall, bits and pieces left out like in the OPs case will be cold spots, cause condensation. Rot, decay, frost damage and an unhealthy internal enviroment are the consequence.

There is a tool called "wufi" which can be used to calculated the (dynamic) dewpoint. The OP can check the www. for the term "wufi" and "dynamic moisture behaviour(-calculation)" and similar. There are various calculation methods, the Glaser method to start with for the simple minds.
No home insurance covers building works causing rot,mould and the consequences.
No professional contractor insurance covers that as well.
It is vital that the dew point/ condenstion risk was calculated before the work starts.
The insulation company (the OPs contractor) must have this calculation sheet and be able to show it on request. If this isn't the case cowboys had been hired.

Hence also my question about the other detailing (sewers,pipes, cables etc..), once the I see shoddy works like this I can imagine more to be revealed.
But that is up to the OP to tell us, sure our DIYers will have something to say about the plumbing issues associated with EWI.

The EPS should not be placed underground in an EWI, there are better materials. EPS and XPS both suck water, EPS up to 20% (and even more)and XPS well above 10% it's volume. If in direct soil contact much more.
The prefered material in this case would be foamed glas, followed by the stone facing.

@ Johnnyk: as long as you don't know what an issue is about it is o.k. to ask. A new thread would atract more answers than highjacking someone else posting.

No one hear nows if the installation is right or wrong unless there is an installer here who can vouch.

Ask the devil where the souls are supposed to go..... I rarely read such bluntly misleading comments. It might be the lousy English used or my technical, consumer orientated thinking though.

The SEAI has absolutly no saying in the technically correct aplication of an external wall insulation method or the build-up of a wall as such.

.243

heinbloed wrote: »

Several posters here seem to have ignored the OPs question.

There is no timber frame house imported from Germay with external wall insulation, .234. Certainly not with EPS.
Name the company and I'll look after them (and they after you), there are minimum standards to which German builders/timber frame manufacturers have to adhere to. EWI with EPS is illegal on timber frame buildings in Germany, as far as I know that is also the case in the entire of Europe and many other countries as well.


The dew point has to be outside the wall therefore the external insulation has to be over the entire wall, bits and pieces left out like in the OPs case will be cold spots, cause condensation. Rot, decay, frost damage and an unhealthy internal enviroment are the consequence.

There is a tool called "wufi" which can be used to calculated the (dynamic) dewpoint. The OP can check the www. for the term "wufi" and "dynamic moisture behaviour(-calculation)" and similar. There are various calculation methods, the Glaser method to start with for the simple minds.
No home insurance covers building works causing rot,mould and the consequences.
No professional contractor insurance covers that as well.
It is vital that the dew point/ condenstion risk was calculated before the work starts.
The insulation company (the OPs contractor) must have this calculation sheet and be able to show it on request. If this isn't the case cowboys had been hired.

Hence also my question about the other detailing (sewers,pipes, cables etc..), once the I see shoddy works like this I can imagine more to be revealed.
But that is up to the OP to tell us, sure our DIYers will have something to say about the plumbing issues associated with EWI.

The EPS should not be placed underground in an EWI, there are better materials. EPS and XPS both suck water, EPS up to 20% (and even more)and XPS well above 10% it's volume. If in direct soil contact much more.
The prefered material in this case would be foamed glas, followed by the stone facing.

@ Johnnyk: as long as you don't know what an issue is about it is o.k. to ask. A new thread would atract more answers than highjacking someone else posting.


Ask the devil where the souls are supposed to go..... I rarely read such bluntly misleading comments. It might be the lousy English used or my technical, consumer orientated thinking though.

The SEAI has absolutly no saying in the technically correct aplication of an external wall insulation method or the build-up of a wall as such.

why dont you take some of your own advice on repling to an op's question and answer some on the thread about external taps last week,
people have answered the op's question by telling him to get quailified advice

dathi

what you need to do is to go onto the nsai.ie web page click on home insulation and that will bring you to a page where you can find a list of registered installers, find the name of your installer and it will have the name of the system he used eg webber then go back and search "agrement certificates" with the name of the system used. this will show you the cert with drawings of how that system should be installed. if the installer has not installed the system as per cert you can take it further.

heinbloed

This foreign EWI method - used abroad since many decades - was developed there with thicknesses of around 40mm and later further developed, it's thickness increased.

The fire ratings of this EPS-EWI are now scrutinized and won't stay as they are.

A recent fire in Sweden

http://www.corren.se/bildspel/player.aspx?slideshowID=5953461#index=0



http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/femarig-flicka-dod-i-brand_6897539.svd



http://ostgota.lokaltidningen.se/hyreshus-totalfoerstoert-i-mjoelbybrand/20120305/artikler/703079545



triggered the international fire safety organisations into action. There were many EWI fires before but now the insurers had enough of it.

So be carefull when thinking that EWI specified and installed by professionals will lead to any monetarian savings. It might - it might not.

An opinion by a gouvernment or a seal by one of it's organisations, a subsidy or a shiny leaflet is no guarantee of sucess. Some in this thread mentioned SEAI and NSAI aprovals, I'm afraid these people haven't a clue about the background on the issue. Serving an industry/sellers/politicians who pay them, the public being to blunt to controll them.

The whole EWI project, the structure treated, could become entirely worthless and might be declared as a fire hazard with immediate remedial works demanded (demolishing).

Employ logic, read. And don't fall the seller's slogans. The laws of physics and economy are to be adhered to, like it or not.

---

New legislations are needed:

http://www.bgdna.com/energy-green-tech/improper-construction-contributed-to-the-spread-of-the-fire.html

---

From 80mm onwards an EPS facade will become instable, uncrollable in a fire.The melting EPS will open 'chimneys' behind the plaster/surface cover and create a self-suported, self consuming furnace. Hardly a chance to stop the fire, controlled combustion being often the only option for the fire specialists.


I have some dozens of these cases now researched (with my limited methods) and can only warn against blue-eyed consumerism.


PS

Imagine what happens to people in one of these houses with wall openings for sewers and pipes penetrating the walls - the Irish method.

.243

heinbloed wrote: »

This foreign EWI method - used abroad since many decades - was developed there with thicknesses of around 40mm and later further developed, it's thickness increased.

The fire ratings of this EPS-EWI are now scrutinized and won't stay as they are.

A recent fire in Sweden

http://www.corren.se/bildspel/player.aspx?slideshowID=5953461#index=0



http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/femarig-flicka-dod-i-brand_6897539.svd



http://ostgota.lokaltidningen.se/hyreshus-totalfoerstoert-i-mjoelbybrand/20120305/artikler/703079545



triggered the international fire safety organisations into action. There were many EWI fires before but now the insurers had enough of it.

So be carefull when thinking that EWI specified and installed by professionals will lead to any monetarian savings. It might - it might not.

An opinion by a gouvernment or a seal by one of it's organisations, a subsidy or a shiny leaflet is no guarantee of sucess. Some in this thread mentioned SEAI and NSAI aprovals, I'm afraid these people haven't a clue about the background on the issue. Serving an industry/sellers/politicians who pay them, the public being to blunt to controll them.

The whole EWI project, the structure treated, could become entirely worthless and might be declared as a fire hazard with immediate remedial works demanded (demolishing).

Employ logic, read. And don't fall the seller's slogans. The laws of physics and economy are to be adhered to, like it or not.

---

New legislations are needed:

http://www.bgdna.com/energy-green-tech/improper-construction-contributed-to-the-spread-of-the-fire.html

---

From 80mm onwards an EPS facade will become instable, uncrollable in a fire.The melting EPS will open 'chimneys' behind the plaster/surface cover and create a self-suported, self consuming furnace. Hardly a chance to stop the fire, controlled combustion being often the only option for the fire specialists.


I have some dozens of these cases now researched (with my limited methods) and can only warn against blue-eyed consumerism.


PS

Imagine what happens to people in one of these houses with wall openings for sewers and pipes penetrating the walls - the Irish method.

i just got bored after the second sentance

Brangers

Hello all, Thank you for all the replies and advise. I was under extreme time
Pressure to get this job done and to get moved into our new house. The contractor was the guy who could start and finish the job the quickest. He has worked on Dermot bannons show and I have seen some of his jobs in and around our area, although I never asked anyone what they thought of his work, but I had seen that he had and was working, anyway that was then, this is now! He has come and explained to me
About the plinth and said that it is insulated with thinner but more denser insulation than the rest of the house and it's because they need a recess for the rain to fall off. Seems to make sense to me. I asked him why it wasn't done flush with the wall and he said that's old fashioned way and would get badly marked
And stained with rain water. He said all houses that aren't brick
Or stone are now built with a recessed plinth. As mentioned I am hoping to get the plinth covered in stone and I want it flush with the wall. He can do this - obviously at additional expense but I always knew that getting the stone put on would be. By the way the plinth is not below floor level of the house. Is he spinning me a yarn or does this make sense to ye?

heinbloed

@ the OP:

Get a civil engineer in, you're propably taken for a ride by this contractor.
Expect samples to be taken from your wall, evidence being secured.
What type of insulation has he used?

PS

Using professionals on the site demands written contracts. The exact work method and material usage being agreed. Buying images will atract magicans to rip you-off.
Ask the contractor for a Glaser diagram, that is the absolute minimum he should do. Better: the complete wufi calculation.
Since you've written in your previous posting that you have done the decoration (stone work) yourself: onto what did you put the stones? How did you chose the correct work method without knowing the back ground?

Brangers

I had spoken with the contractor about putting stone render on the insulation and the company I got the stone from said they had put it on external
Insulation before. The Ber rating of the house was d something when we bought it, it's now c2, would that not indicate that the job has been done? Thanks

heinbloed

Brangers asks:

I had spoken with the contractor about putting stone render on the insulation and the company I got the stone from said they had put it on external
Insulation before. The Ber rating of the house was d something when we bought it, it's now c2, would that not indicate that the job has been done?

It indicates that someone used a calculator.


Mind that insurance premias might go up for EWI structures done with combustable materials.Once a fire catches these things it is very difficult to extinguish. Here a foreign sample of the construction method you have mentioned (stone facade on EPS) published by fire officers:


http://www.freiwilligefeuerwehrbarum.de.tl/1-.--Fassadenbrand-St-.-Dionys.htm

If not discovered soon enough the fire will create it's own chimney, the wall becoming a self-suported furnace:

http://www.schwarzataler-online.at/wordpress/2010/12/ungeklarter-brand-einer-fassade-in-grunbach/

Mineral wool is no protection, here the new music theatre in Linz/Austria:

http://www.foto-kerschi.at/pressefotos/922/Brand+auf+Musiktheater-Baustelle/


So better calculate for an increased insurance premia. With an increasing number of facade fire reports the situation is now hitting the insurer's pockets. Once the first insurer reacts to the increased risks the others will soon follow.

Good luck.

.243

heinbloed wrote: »

Brangers asks:



It indicates that someone used a calculator.


Mind that insurance premias might go up for EWI structures done with combustable materials.Once a fire catches these things it is very difficult to extinguish. Here a foreign sample of the construction method you have mentioned (stone facade on EPS) published by fire officers:


http://www.freiwilligefeuerwehrbarum.de.tl/1-.--Fassadenbrand-St-.-Dionys.htm

If not discovered soon enough the fire will create it's own chimney, the wall becoming a self-suported furnace:

http://www.schwarzataler-online.at/wordpress/2010/12/ungeklarter-brand-einer-fassade-in-grunbach/

Mineral wool is no protection, here the new music theatre in Linz/Austria:

http://www.foto-kerschi.at/pressefotos/922/Brand+auf+Musiktheater-Baustelle/


So better calculate for an increased insurance premia. With an increasing number of facade fire reports the situation is now hitting the insurer's pockets. Once the first insurer reacts to the increased risks the others will soon follow.

Good luck.

will you stop scaremongering,
all of your scary link pictures above have NO credit to them,
all fires were to external walls,so what the hell does it have to do with your insurance going up,
strange you cant "google" any relative information to these fires happining in ireland
oh just to let you know if a fire gets hold of ANY building its still hard to extinguish,

deandean

.243 wrote: »

will you stop scaremongering,
all of your scary link pictures above have NO credit to them,
all fires were to external walls,so what the hell does it have to do with your insurance going up,
strange you cant "google" any relative information to these fires happining in ireland
oh just to let you know if a fire gets hold of ANY building its still hard to extinguish,

I want to THANK Heinbloed for his ongoing input. Other posters can throw in all the crud you want but H. is a net contributor to these forums. It is all to easy for other posters to keyboard-criticise the genuine research of others.

Anyone who knows about EPS panels will see immediately in those photos that the fire spread up within the panel. EPS in un-insurable in commercial buildings here.

heinbloed

If coming across dubious EWI/ETICs (no written contract, no detailed material description, obviously only parts done) then better get a specialist in to check for the aprobiate ductings, the usual cowboys give a damn about risk minimising.

http://www.doyma.co.uk/xml/doyxsl.xsql?seitenid=proinfo_curaflam


PS

There is detailed literature available on the fire safety issues (and insulation), published by specialised publishers. For those who speak the German language (most EWIS installed in Ireland are from Germany,Switzerland and Austria) here:

http://www.feuertrutz.de/magazin/spezial/tf-wdvs.html

Aoife.sere

Dont know if this helps, but it is indeed normal practice to leave a recess to allow water to drip off the wall surface rather than along the wall and at the plinth (it will not get trough anyway if well built but never know, its ireland!)
It is also common practice to use cheaper thicker insulation on the wall if finished wall thickness is not an issue, basically those big fluffy blocks of polystyrene, wile the plinth is insulated with a denser, more efficient and more expensive type of board. all this being said i think 4in is a bit suspicious unless you can find out exactly what kind of boards have been used for the different parts. also plinth insulation should go deep enough as to overlap the layer of insulation in your floor, as to improve cold bridging issues.

regarding your idea of putting stone facing on it, be careful of how this will be fixed, and the above said rainwater needs to go somewhere, so slabbing on some concrete and some stone tiles (i guess that's what you would use) may not be the answer

heinbloed

As long as a denser insulation material is used for the plint we can assume that this denser material isn't insulating as good as the lighter material.

One needs the specifications.

With the OP's pictures we can see that below the 10cm EWI there is a much thinner plint visible. Already covered with the final layer of facing stones.

So this part of the wall made with the "denser" material will hardly match the thermal insulation properties of the rest of the wall. A clear thermal gap, dampness in the structure to be expected for sure.

---

Here some more pictures from Moskow. Mineral fibre boards in full blaze. Protected against water ingress with metal boards -what a bright idea. It reminds me on the new Cork University Hospital where a similar facade system was installed.

http://izismile.com/2009/08/10/fire_in_a_freshly_constructed_apartment_building_24_pics.html

In the USA they try to protect timber frame homes with clay-boards:

http://claylath.com/2009/08/american-wooden-house-with-fire-protection-by-clay-lath.html

Some cowboys (here in Ireland) clad timber frame homes with EPS. So be carefull.

Aoife.sere

heinbloed wrote: »

As long as a denser insulation material is used for the plint we can assume that this denser material isn't insulating as good as the lighter material.

One needs the specifications.

With the OP's pictures we can see that below the 10cm EWI there is a much thinner plint visible. Already covered with the final layer of facing stones.

So this part of the wall made with the "denser" material will hardly match the thermal insulation properties of the rest of the wall. A clear thermal gap, dampness in the structure to be expected for sure.

---

Here some more pictures from Moskow. Mineral fibre boards in full blaze. Protected against water ingress with metal boards -what a bright idea. It reminds me on the new Cork University Hospital where a similar facade system was installed.

http://izismile.com/2009/08/10/fire_in_a_freshly_constructed_apartment_building_24_pics.html

In the USA they try to protect timber frame homes with clay-boards:

http://claylath.com/2009/08/american-wooden-house-with-fire-protection-by-clay-lath.html

Some cowboys (here in Ireland) clad timber frame homes with EPS. So be carefull.

dont get why u are scaring people into thinking the insulation in their house will suddenly burst into flame. i would like you to know that fire regualtions are made to save people not buildings! even the best materials will eventually burn up, what is important is that enough time is granted to people to escape the building in case of a fire. i extremely doubt that a hospital would have been built without following building regulations.

as to the denser/lighter insulation, you should have read all the words.. the key being more efficient. the performance of insulation is calculated depending on its lambda value, W/mK, the lower the better over the thickness
ex:
concrete blocks 0.57
glass fibre quilt insulation 0.040
polyurethane boards 0.023

so for example 100mm of EPS insulation will give you the same effect as 60mm of foil faced thermoset resin board

This does not mean that i think a highly efficient slimmer insulation was used on the plinth in this case, without actually removing the stone facing and checking, I was talking as to what's the general practice for externally insulating walls