Pyrite & Ireland

engineermike

Pyrite & Ireland.

The problems associated with Pyrite have been widely reported in news media and if you are purchasing a house built in the last 12 years you would be right to be concerned.
We survey between 3 & 5 properties across Ireland every week and often get asked by our clients about Pyrite.
- In the first instance our engineers would look for obvious signs of pyrite related damage such as bulging and cracking in centre of floors, doors sticking, cracking in walls.
- Secondly are their any reports of pyrite in the estate.

NOTE: Damage due to swelling pyrite can take some time to manifest itself, on average 8-10 years after the hardcore fill being laid. Sometimes the timing can be significantly reduced, damage appearing after only one year when the pyrite containing hardcore is exposed to wet weather for a prolonged period.

The specification, SR21, was updated in 2007 for the limiting of pyrite in hardcore fill under ground floor slab. The specification has been referred to in the Building Regulations, reference the 2004 and 2008 reprints of Part C of the Technical Guidance Documents.
- Therefore if a property was built from this period on wards the builder should have been aware of any possible issues with contaminated hardcore fill.
- This is however no guarantee that pyrite was not present in the hardcore laid.
- The builder may be able to produce test certificates for the hardcore that came to site, however again this is no guarantee that substandard material did not make its way into the backfill under the slab.

- The presence or otherwise of Pyrite in the hardcore can only be confirmed by testing in-situ the hardcore fill under the floor.
- Testing is the most effective method but still not a guarantee, you can pick a spot/sample at random to test, and find no pyrite. Then test another sample a metre away and find pyrite.
- Access to the fill is obviously a problem; typically small cores are taken through the floor, preferably in areas that will not affect existing finishes. In the case of damage, costs for any remedial works would be significant. One way to protect yourself against possible future repairs is to check whether your builder is covered by insurance against such structural damage or whether a bond was taken out with a structural guarantee scheme (e.g. Premier Guarantee) in case of structural damage from pyrite.
- Note that the Homebond scheme does not appear to be willing or able to pay out on claims at present. Also from my dealings with Premier they will move to this stance on 'imminent damage' which is written in the conditions of the policy. There is an argument if you have damage which triggers the policy, however if your in a row of homes and every second one is exhibiting pyrite damage, it is unlikely that you will get cover under these types of policies / bonds.
Your typical home insurance is unlikely to cover this sort of damage.
- Testing should be carried out by an independent testing company of your choice ( we carry out the testing & reporting for pyrite ) and ideally paid for by the seller (it is a buyers market!).
Hope this is helpful,
M. Fleming

engineermike

Hi,
Reading another post on pyrite - and the existence or non existence of a database, I think a list of area's and prevalence or likely hood can be published with data from my industry and contributions in a forum such as this.

Obviously with the nature of Pyrite and when it manifests itself in a structure will not allow for a complete picture - however I believe an outline picture for buyers would be of benefit in the public domain.

If anyone wants to contribute with confirmed area's or estates - I can begin compiling a data base or map for use in boards, or online.
Regards,
Mike F

gurramok

The problem with this is that sellers and people who live in affected estates would not like the bad publicity that goes with the pyrite problem.

Its a guessing game on which estates are affected, there is limited information available, though I did read from media reports before which counted thousands of properties affected and thats just in Dublin!

engineermike

gurramok wrote: »

The problem with this is that sellers and people who live in affected estates would not like the bad publicity that goes with the pyrite problem.

Its a guessing game on which estates are affected, there is limited information available, though I did read from media reports before which counted thousands of properties affected and thats just in Dublin!

Hi,
Yes I agree - however a lot of the information is common knowledge in sections of the public domain - outside the control of residents and owners.

If individual estates are not named, but a format of North / south / east / west coloration is denoted on a map of a townland - then buyers can at least make an informed decision as to whether pass up a sale or have it correctly survey'd.
Just this week alone my office has looked at 2 Pyrite renovation works / inspections. - Baldoyle Co.Dublin & Edenderry co. Offaly.
'Caveat emptor' just doesn't quite cut it for me professionally having seen the carry on that has taken place in Ireland during the last 15 years in construction and property.
At the very least a map indicating known cases and not naming estates or addresses would benefit potential buyers, leaving suspected cases to one side.
Mike f:)

mondymike

My brother is looking at a property in hansfield clonee atm. Afaik there is an ongoing situation regarding a house in Ongar across the way. A Database would make a massive difference with knowing before you buy or even look.

Is there an existing Db or is there a way of checking up on ongoing issues?

engineermike

mondymike wrote: »

My brother is looking at a property in hansfield clonee atm. Afaik there is an ongoing situation regarding a house in Ongar across the way. A Database would make a massive difference with knowing before you buy or even look.

Is there an existing Db or is there a way of checking up on ongoing issues?

Hi - We are in the process of gathering info. from Job's I and my colleagues know about - We will only be shading a map in general area's and not naming particular estates - to ensure no legal reproach is provided against myself or my company. I've also engaged with a number of pyrite repair specialists to gain there data to add to the map.
At the very lease it will give the cautious buyer some extra info. and they can address this with a proper survey / testing or what is required.

At the moment its local knowledge and communication between professionals coupled with indications of pyrite heave during survey.
One of my engineers is based in Clonee b.t.w - so if you need someone with knowledge of the area for a survey, just send me a PM.
mike F

witty username

engineermike wrote: »

Hi - We are in the process of gathering info. from Job's I and my colleagues know about - We will only be shading a map in general area's and not naming particular estates - to ensure no legal reproach is provided against myself or my company. I've also engaged with a number of pyrite repair specialists to gain there data to add to the map.
At the very lease it will give the cautious buyer some extra info. and they can address this with a proper survey / testing or what is required.

At the moment its local knowledge and communication between professionals coupled with indications of pyrite heave during survey.
One of my engineers is based in Clonee b.t.w - so if you need someone with knowledge of the area for a survey, just send me a PM.
mike F

Hi Mike, has there been any progress on this since?

engineermike

HI Witty,
Just trying to find the time to admin the data we've collected to date. Probably going to work it up over x mas, when i've some down time. The format will be in a blog - with information relating to pyrite & a map indicating known instances.
The list of places grows every month, at least some problematic estates are getting remidials carried out across the board.
mike f

RATM

Hows progress going on this map Mike ? Would be an invaluable tool for buyers, as you say caveat emptor doesn't quite cut the mustard in this scenario

engineermike

RATM wrote: »

Hows progress going on this map Mike ? Would be an invaluable tool for buyers, as you say caveat emptor doesn't quite cut the mustard in this scenario

Hi,
Unfortunately recent successful legal challenges have prevented Pyrite estates being named in the public domain. I was advised to keep our data for survey purposes in our private & confidential reporting to our clients.
Its fair / but unfair at the same time. Contamination in many cases isn't development wide, so one house can have problems and the next 4 or 5 not have any issues at all.
Its unfair on potential purchasers, and the information is risk related for all parties involved - buyers, lenders & insurers.
I've discussed a few ways of 'skinning the cat' with some discussion in the banking & insurance sector to pool information but nothing has been agreed as yet.
mike f

gurramok

Which means buyer beware. Just don't even think of looking to buy properties that were built post 2000 to be majorly safe from buying a pyrite house.

Buy a house post 2000, your risk of obtaining a pyrite one is alot higher.

engineermike

gurramok wrote: »

Which means buyer beware. Just don't even think of looking to buy properties that were built post 2000 to be majorly safe from buying a pyrite house.

Buy a house post 2000, your risk of obtaining a pyrite one is alot higher.

I'd even extend that period of concern up to 2007 with 2004 - 2007 being in the 'grey area' where knowledge was available in the industry relating to this particular issue.
However it was still in the construction boom & some horrendously poor decisions on building systems / material / construction methods occurred to enable quick build times before the price of land increased (they thought!) on a developers next project.
You can just hear them saying " Sure it'll be Grand like" :rolleyes:

mikef

RATM

Mike would you know a rough % figure of the amount of houses / apartments built from 2000-2010 that have pyrite in them ? Like is it 1% or closer to 10% ? If closer to 10% then anyone buying a unit built during this period would be mad not to consider a structural survey. Even at 5% you're taking a one in 20 risk, people buy lottery scratchcards for far worse odds than that.

engineermike

Hi ratm,
Its a difficult thing to gauge but estimates are at 20,000 to 60,000 homes have pyrite contamination. Approx. 650,000 homes built in Ireland during the period 2000 - 2010 (CIF Figures). So your at least 3 - 10 %.
When you take into account unreported cases that where settled or remedied by the builder directly and kept quite, new extensions built to existing homes I'd say nearer the 10 % figure.
Due diligence on professional & legal fees when buying is money well spent particularly in light of Homebond / Premier's 'adopted' position on pyrite claims.
mikef

MINIPolka

Hi Guys I just found your thread. I have made an offer on an apt in Fingal and proceeded to nearly signing all papers. Got a surveyor as was a bit anxious about small cracks in walls. They look like settlement ones. The surveyor advised to observe it towards piryte etc but that doed not confirm anything at all. I have been renting this place from a longer while and love it so don't want to give it up. How much does it cost to dp the sample? My estate is next to an estate that has been affected by piryte but its been built by different construction company. Any advice?

clunked

Find out where the infill came from. There were a small number of quarries where pyrite came from. Your solicitor should be able to find that out for you. Realistically most pyrite damage has already manifested itself as pyrite made its cracking appearance (as I know only too well) in 2007. Incidentally best of luck. If it were me, I would avoid buying an apartment unless you would like to buy mine!!!!

MINIPolka

Thanks Clunked. It's a good idea. I 'll get into my solicitor to check it out. My brain is fried from trying to get any info at all! People around don't seem to be concerned about piryte and this thing is nearly everywhere! Sorry to hear about your place.

sinosaur73

Mike.
Can pyrite be determined simply on a visual inspection by a surveyor and would a visual inspection without proof by way of appropriate testing be sufficient to prepare a report making a suggeston of pyrite . I ask as a result of a house sale that fell through on a house in an estate which is 11yrs built and not a single report of any house in the particular estate as having pyrite.
Would appreciate your feedback thanks

RORY O CONNOR

Tell tale visual signs are:

External: Cracks at windows, cracks in the plinths at DPC level, sulphates=cloudy white covering on the bricks.

Internal: Cracked floor tiles, timber flooring distorted, doors sticking, doors catching on the floor when you open the door, cracked ceilings, off level flooring, distorted worktops in the kitchen, cracks on the walls above doorway(diagonal cracking) . All of this manifests on the ground floor. Ignore cracking upstairs.

The only way to prove you have Pyrite is to have the stone infill below the floor tested for it-this means coring through the floor concrete and taking stone away for chemical and X ray testing.

Rainbow bright

Hi All

I have just found this thred. I am in the process of buying a property in Maynooth and the day I was due to sign contracts heard of rumours of pyrite in the estate. When I mentioned this to the estate agent and builder they confirmed that there was an issue in 10 properties in the first phase and they fixed the houses and there have been no more issues since. I also contacted the local TD who also confirmed this.

Of the searching that I have done I am unable to find much information on this estate but have found articles on another estate.

I would really appreciate anyone in the Maynooth area sharing any information on this.

Lantus

I was speaking to a chap a little while back who works in this area. Apparently you can get a 'test' done which involved drilling into your floor and costs €3000 to undertake. If the pyrite is 'active' then work needs to be done and in most cases the house insurance policy is covering this it seems. However, if it is inactive they wont touch it and the cost of the test is yours to absorb.

In terms of a map it would be a great resource but would effectively destroy the sell ability of every estate it mentioned if that level of detail was included.

Probably a 'by county' counter would be the most detail that could be provided and any details would need to be carefully restricted and made non accessible even if they are allegedly mentioned on the internet or in the public domain.

RORY O CONNOR

If you have not bought the house yet ask your surveyour/engineer is he saw any problems concerning Pyrite. It should be the vendor who pays for the sample testing not the buyer. I have inspected over 150 properties in the last two years that have been affected by Pyrite. The signs are pretty obvious:

The typical symptoms of Pyrite in the stone infill under a building are typically indicated by some of the following issues: Externally a higher level of structural cracking on walls than would normally be visible and expected in a recently built property are present. Internally typical indicators are uneven flooring, cracks on walls, distorted doorways, cracked floor tiles-especially at doorways, doors that will not open or that catch on the floors when an attempt is made to open them, warped plasterboard walls, ceiling cracks, fireplace heart cracking and fireplaces dislodged from wall .

Do not buy the property if the above indicators are present. If you really want the house ask for the sample testing to be done. Do not listen to the builder or the agent-they will tell you anything to secure the sale and you will have no comeback.

I am aware of Pyrite in The Arches, Silken Vale in Maynooth

RORY O CONNOR

As an aside €3000 is too expensive. Two cores with proper test lab analysis is €2200 from IGSL. Some are charging €2200 for only one core.

jd

natali1982 wrote: »

Do you know if there has been any thorough test/survey made? Developements are just beside each other. How come that one is effected and another not?

Built at different times by different builders/developers. Temple Gardens was built before Temple C, and there is no evidence of pyritic heave.

natali1982

jd wrote: »

Built at different times by different builders/developers. Temple Gardens was built before Temple C, and there is no evidence of pyritic heave.

Thanks for your response. Do you maybe know when was Temple G build and who was developer?

jd

From
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/temp/temple-gardens-apartments-are-sold-out-27781421.html

the developers, Morrison Homes and Woodford Development Ltd.,

sawdoubters

http://www.propertyhealthcheck.ie/what-is-pyrite-in-houses/

Rainbow bright

Hi all

Thank you for your posts. I have pulled out of buying in Maynooth due to the initial pyrite issue in the estate and after our engineer checked the house out there were 2 cracks in the concrete floor slab and a slopping in the floor at the hall door.

Awful to think builders refuse to let people test these houses but are willing to take hundreds of thousand off people for defective properties. Definitely a case of buyer beware!!!!

caew

on_my_oe wrote: »

I have heard that parts of tyrrelstown have pyrite - <snip> Any substance to this?

I lived in Belgree for 11 years bought in the first phase and sold in july of last year.
I never saw any evidence of pyrite in my house or heard my neighbours speak of any problems with their houses.
I don't know how long problems take to show though.

The_Conductor

caew wrote: »

I don't know how long problems take to show though.

Typically 8-10 years, unless there is a lot of moisture- in which case it can be as low as a year.

Now folks- ask about pyrite to your hearts content- but please stop asking about specific estates or making ascertains that you can't back up- this website is one of the most visited in Ireland- and throwaway comments can have far bigger effects than you'd ever imagine.

RORY O CONNOR

There is no hard and fast rule as to when Pyrite will activate. It can take years and it can be very quick.

I have surveyed many houses with Pyrite in them over the last two years and in some cases adjoining houses which would have been built at the same time were chalk and cheese in terms of damage levels in each one.

dinnyirwin

The last house I bought had pyrite.
The vendor knew but didnt say. My surveyor discovered it and we renegotiated the price. Got it for half nothing. Then got my own builder in to address the issue. It didnt cost that much and is written off tax so in the end will only cost half what it cost.

The place brings in full rent now. There might be issues with people knowing there used to be pyrite issues and not wanting to buy when it goes up for sale, but by then I will have mad my investment back and a healthy profit.

Pyrite is not all doom and gloom. It can be sorted out. There is the stigma alright that may last a long time, but if you get the house for a bargain and either wiat for the redress board or get it sorted at your own expense you can get a pretty good deal.

RORY O CONNOR

Don't expect any swift actions from the redress board-its going to be a slow, long process.

jd

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

Don't expect any swift actions from the redress board-its going to be a slow, long process.

Have you any indication on how long it could be before actual remediation starts anywhere?

dinnyirwin

jd wrote: »

Have you any indication on how long it could be before actual remediation starts anywhere?

Years would be my guess from what I was told. And you have to be one of the worst effected to get into the line even.

RORY O CONNOR

jd wrote: »

Have you any indication on how long it could be before actual remediation starts anywhere?

Applications can be done via the re-mediation board's website from next Wednesday 26th-supposedly- but you will need to have your damage condition survey report done as it is part of the application process. Pyremco-the company that is supposed to be formed to undertake the sample testing and organise the repairs has not been established yet. So with no sample testing and no one to organise repairs there will be nothing done for a while.

sugarmonkey

hi guys, i just posted this on another thread but this looks more relevant.

i'm looking at a particular house in dunboyne, i have heard rumours that there is pyrite in the estate, how can i establish the extent of the problem? also is there a safe level of pyrite or more to the point what percentage would be a huge flashing light to step away?

Michael D Not Higgins

sugarmonkey wrote: »

hi guys, i just posted this on another thread but this looks more relevant.

i'm looking at a particular house in dunboyne, i have heard rumours that there is pyrite in the estate, how can i establish the extent of the problem? also is there a safe level of pyrite or more to the point what percentage would be a huge flashing light to step away?

Testing for pyrite is only one part of an analysis of the backfill. It all goes into a report to give an indication of how likely swelling of the material will occur. In other words, there is no hard figure which it needs to be under and depends on more than just the pyrite itself.

If you are serious about this house, then engage with a testing company to understand any risks.

Edit: the other thing to consider is how long ago the house was built, if cracks are evident, and if a surveyor's report indicates anything about pyrite.

sugarmonkey

thanks Michael, very serious about the house but its already at the top end of our budget and i'm completely ignorant about the potential pitfalls down the road even if nothing is showing up now, basically i guess my question is, if testing is done will it definitely show up?

sugarmonkey

thanks Michael, very serious about the house but its already at the top end of our budget and i'm completely ignorant about the potential pitfalls down the road even if nothing is showing up now, basically i guess my question is, if testing is done will it definitely show up?

the house was built in 1998

Michael D Not Higgins

sugarmonkey wrote: »

the house was built in 1998

I've read it takes about 10 years to show up so you should get a surveyor's report and investigate further if they find anything.

sugarmonkey

thank you

JD1763

Disclaimer: I am not an expert, an engineer, builder etc.

The only way to be certain if there are no visual signs of structural damage is to get a core drill test done. This involves an engineering company drilling down through the floor and concrete slab in at least two locations for an average 3/4 bed semi (the number of sample locations required depends on the size of the house) and removing a few kg of infill to take away for analysis. It takes a few weeks for the lab results to come back but it will give you a clear indication if pyrite is present. If the material fails the first chemical analysis a more detailed (x-ray defraction?) test can be performed to determine the exact concentrations (I do not know the test process in detail just what I have been told so please take this information with a pinch of salt).

There is a scale for pyrite - if the house is clear or has acceptable amounts of pyrite (green) or pyrite present above the threshold but no structural damage visible (amber) or pyrite present with clear signs of structural damage (red). Houses are also graded category 1 is amber and category 2 is red.

If you are looking to secure a mortgage on the property your bank will require a green cert if there are indications of pyrite contamination in the estate or surrounding area. In fact anyone buying a house built during the boom years and even possibly before should be requesting a green cert from the vendor. The test itself costs upwards of €1700 and the flooring material needs to be replaced where the bore holes are. Many people are unfortunate to not have kept spare tiles.

In terms of pyrite damage there is no clear time frame - some say at least 10 years but experience varies and others say anything up to 40 years before a judgement could be made that the presence of high levels of pyrite is not likely to damage the property. There is simply no clear rule and every case is different. It is worth looking at the experience of Canada on this front.

It also depends on the construction of the house whether the ground slab was poured on top of the affected infill or if the house is a suspended slab and is not in contact with the infill. This is possibly why in a pyrite affected estate one house can be severely damaged while a neighboring property is not showing any signs yet is likely to have pyrite present in the infill as well.

If you are in any way concerned about pyrite the only way to be 100% certain is to retain a proper engineering company to do the test. A visual survey is not sufficient to be certain that a property is unaffected.

This is just my two cents on this topic, maybe those with professional experience can offer better information than I have. I won't comment on the half arsed approach of the government to addressing victims of cowboy builders or the complete lack of regulation and oversight of the building sector that allowed this to happen in the first place.

sugarmonkey

JD genuine thanks for your time and insightful post. This is exactly what i needed. I will proceed with the bidding and if it is accepted i will happily spend a couple of thousand for peace of mind.

JD1763

No problem - just one more point since you're looking in Dunboyne. Developments in Meath are one of the regions particularly at risk of pyrite issues. It's worth looking at the report of the Pyrite Panel which looks at where infill with pyritic content came from:

http://www.pyriteboard.ie/Pyrite/media/Pyrite/Updated/Report-of-Pyrite-Panel-June-2012.pdf

If I were you I would ask the following questions upfront before bidding:

1) Has the vendor obtained a green cert for the property? If not will they provide one?
2) Is your estate agent or the vendor aware of pyrite in nearby estates or the estate you are looking to buy in? Get this in writing if possible.
3) Is the property detached, semi-detached or mid-terrace? This will have implications for any remediation effort if pyrite is found.
4) Is the house built on a ground or suspended slab?
5) Is the developer/builder still solvent and operating as a going concern or have they gone into receivership/liquidation? If still operating do they have liability insurance in place that would cover remediation works due to pyrite?
6) Related to q above - was the house covered by Homebond or another insurer for structural defects?
7) It could even be worth your while just googling and seeing what comes up - pyrite+the estate name or area or getting in contact with the Pyrite Action Group and seeing if there is anyone from the estate or area working with them or they may know if houses from the estate or general area have been accepted into the PRB scheme for remedial works.

While this might seem a bit ott and may not be a problem with this house - I would advise you to be very cautious as many vendors with possible pyrite problems will try to conceal this fact from prospective buyers particularly if there is no visible structural damage.

It is possible to pick up a pyrite affected property at a reduced price and this can work out in your favour even after paying to fix it (again this is case by case and would depend on the level of damage - there are houses which are pyrite affected but with no damage and others with inch wide cracks in the walls).

Entering into a purchase fully sighted of a pyrite issue and its possible implications is very different to a scenario of paying full price for a property and then uncovering a pyrite problem afterwards.

sugarmonkey

Thanks JD, i have asked the estate agent to inquire as to any uncoverings of Pyrite and I may just do a walk about in Dunboyne and ask the locals. That's some pretty sound advice you've given, greatly appreciated. Thanks again.

christin

I'm buying an apartment in the Waterville estate in Blanchardstown Dublin 15. Would anyone have heard of a Pyrite issue for this estate in the past?
Thanks.

Hurrache

Never heard of it being an issue there, but maybe ask in the Dublin 15 forum, there's one or two regulars there that live in Waterville.

clunked

christin wrote: »

I'm buying an apartment in the Waterville estate in Blanchardstown Dublin 15. Would anyone have heard of a Pyrite issue for this estate in the past?
Thanks.

Find out where the infill for the ground floor came from and was it from a quarry associated with pyrite. Waterville is a good sized estate so if there is/was a pyrite issue it should be easily discovered even though there was a court order keeping the issue quiet.
In addition if there was a pyrite issue and the home was repaired there would be a certificate available to show that the property would be free of pyrite.

christin

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.
Forgive my ignorance, I'm a first time buyer. What or how is the best way to find out which quarry did the infill come from? Is word of mouth or Internet search the best way? I'd say the builders (Granbrind) won't tell me this kind of information.

clunked

christin wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.
Forgive my ignorance, I'm a first time buyer. What or how is the best way to find out which quarry did the infill come from? Is word of mouth or Internet search the best way? I'd say the builders (Granbrind) won't tell me this kind of information.

Your solicitor can find that out. It’s quite likely that a number of quarries would have been used though. You could check locally if the estate has had pyrite issues. If there is pyrite present, it would have become apparent within a few years of the buildings completion