Ronan O'Gara's future at Munster

BoardsMember

I've been quite surprised to see a lot of negative comment on current threads, most notably the Munster v Ulster thread, regarding Ronan O'Gara. There seem to be quite a few comments writing him off, or identifying him as part of the problem with back play at Munster. I'm surprised that I havent seen any vehement defence of ROG, and his relevance & importance for Munster for next year and beyond.

Is this just some keyboard warrior stuff, or is there a consensus building that Munster's limitations are in some way not helped by ROG, and that to move on and play with more flair and ambition, and success, in the backline, they might need to look further afield than ROG at 10.

I'll put my colours on the mast, I'm a Leinster fan. But I've always been a big admirer of ROG. The point of posting this thread is to see what people feel, particularly longstanding die-hard Munster supporters feel about what Munster should be looking to do with their 10 next year and beyond.

Are the signings of Lualala and Downey going to prove that ROG still has what it takes to run a backline, and was just lacking what he needs outside him? Or will it be sooner than later that we see a change is needed? Is ROG too predictable now, or will he be able to mix it up like he has done before?

I'd be really interested to hear what people have to say, particularly from the Munster perspective. Let's take it as a given that ROG has given incredible service to both Munster and Ireland, and has been instrumental in so many of their successes. The question is, do people think he will continue to do so?

jacothelad

ROG should play until he is 48.

CIARAN_BOYLE

ROG has always been good at a few things, kicking for territory and kicking for points. He certainly is not the most creative player or the best defender.

Thing is Munster don't have the pack at the moment to play the game they used to. There is no destructive ball carriers and there isn't the same ability to steal ball in the lineout.

Whats worse he isn't kicking for territory, and he his kicking range has declined by about 5-10 meters over the last couple of years. He kicked 8 times against Ulster, that includes garryowens and crossfield kicks. He doesn't take responsibility for tactical kicking like a tactical kicker of his abilities should. The box kick is often the preferred option with Murray boxkicking 7 times against Ulster. When kickable penalties become available they are ignored all too often by the Munster set up. When Munster was 19-0 down they got three or four penalties and they chose to kick to the lineout for all of them.

I have to wonder if next season Keatley might be the prefered 10 with ROG coming on for the last 20 minutes of games to kick for the corners and maybe take a drop goal.

ongarite

He is entering the twilight of his career and the game he is playing now isn't helping break the gain line with strike runners.

Munster's season is nearly over with 3 games left so I would start Keatley in all games and bring on ROG if needed in the 2nd half.

Its something the next Munster coach will probably have to tackle straight away.

Quint2010

His comments off the pitch have certainly affected his game on it. I think the World Cup QF was a watershed for him. He threatened to retire unless he was picked, was picked, and then didn't perform. For me he hasn't been the same since. Was a great player but in decline now (understandably considering his age).

Fishooks12

ROG is past his best but this thread will just end up as a format for people to imply that he was never any good

ROG wanting to play on isn't the problem, it's our inability to find as successor

Keatley doesn't seem up to t

liammur

ROG is good enough for munster and good enough for Ireland.

whysomoody

ROG was the best out-half Munster has ever produced, but there comes a time like Roy Keane in Man Utd etc that these players have to step aside and let young blood come through or by the time they do it will be too late.

.ak

Fishooks12 wrote: »

ROG is past his best but this thread will just end up as a format for people to imply that he was never any good

ROG wanting to play on isn't the problem, it's our inability to find as successor

Keatley doesn't seem up to t

See this is the problem I have. Even well clued in Munster fans can only really say 'doesn't seem up to it'.

Every time I've seen him I've been impressed, but the lad needs exposure. If it means a season or two of hardship, so be it. ROG won't be around forever. Give someone like Keatley (who obviously has some talent) a shot at running the senior team for more than a couple of games in a row...

Podge_irl

Keatley was playing fairly well at the start of the season with a run of games behind him. His form has nosedived partly because he has been getting very little game time of late.

Munster need to bite the bullet and move on to Keatley. ROG was a fantastic rugby player and a great servant of Munster and Ireland, but he is now horrendously limiting the team. He stands far too far back and merely shovels ball out to his centres. His famed territorial game has become sparsely used and the odd time he does use it Munster don't compete at the line-out making it pointless.

Over 70% possession and territory in a game and creating almost nothing speaks volumes by itself.

Hagz

If only Ian McKinley hadn't had to retire. He'd be ideal for a move to Munster.

MLC61

Even the most die hard Munster fan will accept that O'Gara is not good enough for the business end of the Heineken Cup. His play is very predictable - kick to the corner or shovel it out the backline. Wales have had the measure of this for a number of years. Ulster certainly had the measure of him on Sunday.

This is now a serious problem for Munster. By not addressing it over the previous two years the Munster management have been negligent. Now they are faced with Hobsons choice. They can only drop him if he accepts it in a positive way and works for the good of the team. Unfortunately this has not been a strong point of his and he seems to have started the media campaign early in anticipation of this action.

If Munster supporters put Keatley through what they did with Sexton he won't last the pace.

They need to give him the chance though before they go outside.

Big Nelly

liammur wrote: »

ROG is good enough for munster and good enough for Ireland.

Good enough for Munster, if the fans are happy with him then off you go

Good enough for Ireland, your having a laugh. He was poor in World Cup, threw his toys out of pram, got his game and lost the game. End of story.

Anytime he came on for Ireland this year Ireland have got worse, only reason he is still in squad is because Kidney is manager. Keatley or Madigan should be in squad to replace him.

danthefan

Keatley doesn't get so much as a minute off the bench against any decent side unless the game is comprehensively won. It's hardly surprising he hasn't pushed on this season.

liammur

Big Nelly wrote: »

Good enough for Munster, if the fans are happy with him then off you go

Good enough for Ireland, your having a laugh. He was poor in World Cup, threw his toys out of pram, got his game and lost the game. End of story.

Anytime he came on for Ireland this year Ireland have got worse, only reason he is still in squad is because Kidney is manager. Keatley or Madigan should be in squad to replace him.

That's harsh on a player who has served his country so well.

Big Nelly

Was listening to Off the ball earlier, the podcast, think it was the 02/04 one. They where talking about the Munster/Leinster match and about how it was great for future that Joe gave Madigan game time and he done well. So in future if Sexton gets injured then they will be happy that Madigan has exposure to high pressure situation.

What would happen if ROG got injured? Munster have not given Keatley time in any of the big games this season. It is a failure on there part. ROG was a great servant, but his time is over

durkadurka

danthefan wrote: »

Keatley doesn't get so much as a minute off the bench against any decent side unless the game is comprehensively won. It's hardly surprising he hasn't pushed on this season.

To be fair, neither does madigan. Only exception I can think of is Munster last week but that was because of an injury or possible injury to sexton.
Madigan only got in HEC games when the match was won or sexton was injured.

MLC61

liammur wrote: »

That's harsh on a player who has served his country so well.

This is where any of these discussions derail. Forget what has gone before. In discussing any player someone will always believe that he "served his country well". Thats not what is at issue. What is at issue is, should he continue to be selected for Munster.

Gd194

ROG isnt the problem, he is a fine player by all accounts. i simply believe that the only reason he had a few bad kicks is because of his opposite halfback, conor murray, who is a fine player by all accounts but by the time ROG got the ball the ulster players were right in his face so he couldnt get an accurate kick, note: this never used to happen with stringer, he was the fastest in the world at getting quick ball away i believe if murray could quicken up his pass they would work better at a partnership and ROG would have more time to control the backline, simple as.

MyKeyG

Big Nelly wrote: »

Good enough for Munster, if the fans are happy with him then off you go

Good enough for Ireland, your having a laugh. He was poor in World Cup, threw his toys out of pram, got his game and lost the game. End of story.

Anytime he came on for Ireland this year Ireland have got worse, only reason he is still in squad is because Kidney is manager. Keatley or Madigan should be in squad to replace him.

Would you like to use more specific examples? The ten minutes or so he got against Wales after all of Sextons misses perhaps? In the meantime for people who know about rugby...

ROG is still a fine player but we need to stop half teams coming through. I think Munster could benefit from a complete squad overhaul. How many players are being passed over because the old guard won't call it a day? They gave great service but this weekend proved that there are some bodies out there that'll get you so far but don't have the muscle to get over the finish line. Ulster are not that good. Fair play to them but I think they were a bit flattered going in at half time. Three poor penalties given away and a try that should have been stopped.

Thank you POC, DOC et al but your day is done with our thanks. The pasture calls.

Podge_irl

durkadurka wrote: »

To be fair, neither does madigan. Only exception I can think of is Munster last week but that was because of an injury or possible injury to sexton.
Madigan only got in HEC games when the match was won or sexton was injured.

Not quite the same though. ROG is a fading force (faded imo) and Keatley could potentially improve things. Sexton is the best club level fly half in Europe.

Its utterly obvious to me that Munster's best bet is Keatley starting with ROG on the bench to come on and kick his drop goals or whatever is needed in the last 15 minutes. There is a chance Munster would not have needed those last last minute drops with Keatley starting.

Gd194

liammur wrote: »

That's harsh on a player who has served his country so well.

sure any time he came on the game was already won or lost. and sextons kicking was pot at the worlcup so rog had to step up! lost the game my ring.

id say your from leinster boyo

liammur

Gd194 wrote: »

sure any time he came on the game was already won or lost. and sextons kicking was pot at the worlcup so rog had to step up! lost the game my ring.

id say your from leinster boyo

No, I'm munster, Sexton is obviously the future, but ROG is a good back up.

MLC61

MyKeyG wrote: »

Would you like to use more specific examples? The ten minutes or so he got against Wales after all of Sextons misses perhaps? In the meantime for people who know about rugby...

ROG is still a fine player but we need to stop half teams coming through. I think Munster could benefit from a complete squad overhaul. How many players are being passed over because the old guard won't call it a day? They gave great service but this weekend proved that there are some bodies out there that'll get you so far but don't have the muscle to get over the finish line. Ulster are not that good. Fair play to them but I think they were a bit flattered going in at half time. Three poor penalties given away and a try that should have been stopped.

Thank you POC, DOC et al but your day is done with our thanks. The pasture calls.

Is this a contradiction in terms?

Gd194

liammur wrote: »

No, I'm munster, Sexton is obviously the future, but ROG is a good back up.

but sure how can rog prove that hes a good back up if he only comes on when games are decided?

look at what leinster did two weeks ago in thomand, they brought on a young fella to see how he would do in a tight situation and that was before the game was one, sometimes you need to mix it up! and rog is the man to do it!

sexton is good but all he does is that stupid little loop around and dummy. hes all bark if you ask me!:pac:

yosser hughes

RO'G has been a great servant and all that but really Munster need to think of their future and he should be retired from the Irish team. He offers so little with the ball in hand, anyone can see that. Look at Sexton's break and dummy for Nacewa's try or his pass to Luke for BO'D's try. When was the last time RO'G did anything like that.
For Munster they need to use him now to bring Keatley along and if Munster don't think Keatley is good enough then get someone else but still use RO'G as a mentor.
RO'G was great but needs to step aside for the good of Munster and Ireland. If Munster fans really believe he is the out -half to take them forward then good luck to you but you won't be winning Heineken Cups for a long time.
Munster are in a whole lot of trouble right now and I don't think they realise it actually.If they don't take radical steps the fair weather fan will slink away as success is what brings them in.

liammur

Gd194 wrote: »

but sure how can rog prove that hes a good back up if he only comes on when games are decided?

look at what leinster did two weeks ago in thomand, they brought on a young fella to see how he would do in a tight situation and that was before the game was one, sometimes you need to mix it up! and rog is the man to do it!

sexton is good but all he does is that stupid little loop around and dummy. hes all bark if you ask me!:pac:

I agree to a point. Sexton, does he have the nerve for kicking at international level ? I suspect not, hence ROG as back up.

CatFromHue

Why would ROG step a side?

He's playing a game he loves, for a team he loves, and for a good wage (I presume).

I wouldn't if I were him. I'd play until I can't play no more.

Podge_irl

ROG isn't going to step aside (clearly). To be fair, few players would.

He needs to be pushed.

Gd194

yosser hughes wrote: »

RO'G has been a great servant and all that but really Munster need to think of their future and he should be retired from the Irish team. He offers os little with the ball in hand, anyone can see that. look at Sextons break and dummy for Nacewa's try or his pass to Luke for BO'D's try. When was the last time RO'G did anything like that.
For Munster they need to use him now to bring Keatley along and if Munster don't think Keatley is good enough then get someone else but still use RO'G as a mentor.
RO'G was great but needs to step aside for the good of Munster and Ireland. If Musnter fans really believe he is the oit half to take them forward then good luck to you but you won't be winning Heineken Cups for a long time.
Munster are in a whole lot of trouble right now and I don't think they realise it actually.If they don't take radical steps the fair weather fan will slink away as success is what brings them in.

i know what your saying but rog will still surprise you, remember in the six nations against scotland when he handed off the scottish flanker and them put the fullback on his backside to score a try? same guy you know! and look at how he copes under pressure? rwc 2011, the grandslam for god sake! sextons amazing for leinster judging from last years run but he just hasnt got the instincts to cope under pressure on a big stage. he still needs time to grow! you can only hide behind barking at other players for so long

durkadurka

liammur wrote: »

I agree to a point. Sexton, does he have the nerve for kicking at international level ? I suspect not, hence ROG as back up.

He missed five kicks in five games in the 6n. One from his own half. One from the touchline against Italy in the last second of a thrashing.

CatFromHue

Podge_irl wrote: »

ROG isn't going to step aside (clearly). To be fair, few players would.

He needs to be pushed.

Exactly, it's not his decision to make. Unless he chooses to retire.

It's the teams management.

Every player, whether pro or J3, wants to play for as long as they can. When they stopped getting picked is when it might be time to stop playing, or drop down a level. ROG is very much first choice at Munster so why would be even think of stepping down/retiring as long as he's fit.

liammur

durkadurka wrote: »

He missed five kicks in five games in the 6n. One from his own half. One from the touchline against Italy in the last second ins thrashing.

what about the World Cup ?

Gd194

did anyone hear about tony mcgahan talking to digby ioane about signing for munster after his contract with the reds is up? i got this from a source inside munster managment and they say there was a phonecall made about the 2013-14 season

Podge_irl

Gd194 wrote: »

i know what your saying but rog will still surprise you, remember in the six nations against scotland when he handed off the scottish flanker and them put the fullback on his backside to score a try? same guy you know! and look at how he copes under pressure? rwc 2011, the grandslam for god sake! sextons amazing for leinster judging from last years run but he just hasnt got the instincts to cope under pressure on a big stage. he still needs time to grow! you can only hide behind barking at other players for so long

ROG was absolutely terrible in the RWC 2011. His kicking was also atrocious in several of the games in the GS.

Big Nelly

MyKeyG wrote: »

Would you like to use more specific examples? The ten minutes or so he got against Wales after all of Sextons misses perhaps? In the meantime for people who know about rugby....

haha, so how many kicks did Sexton miss oh wise one?

Yes he done nothing in Wales match, done the exact same in France match, nothing. Came on when Ireland where going great guns against Scotland and set the whole side back. Didn't even take the kicks.

So enlighten us all with your great wisdom seeing as you "know about rugby!"

Podge_irl

CatFromHue wrote: »

Exactly, it's not his decision to make. Unless he chooses to retire.

It's the teams management.

Every player, whether pro or J3, wants to play for as long as they can. When they stopped getting picked is when it might be time to stop playing, or drop down a level. ROG is very much first choice at Munster so why would be even think of stepping down/retiring as long as he's fit.

No one should reasonably expect ROG to step down. I would expect him to stop throwing hissy fits though.

Big Nelly

liammur wrote: »

what about the World Cup ?

There was a number of kicker in World cup who had a poor rate. Jonny Wilkinson, Parra etc along with Sexton.

ROG kicked a few but the one game he was given a chance to make his mark, the Wales match, he done nothing. Didn't even kick at goal.

Teferi

Fishooks12 wrote: »

ROG is past his best but this thread will just end up as a format for people to imply that he was never any good

I'm absolutely delighted to say that this doesn't seem to be the case.

The recent debates over ROG have generally been fairly respectful of his past abilities and centered around his current abilities (which are fading) and his mouth (he is a bit of a Roy Keane).

Any poster with a brain here knows ROG was key to our success over the last decade but his time is very nearly over at international level (if we had a decent coach there I don't think he would be seeing any more caps) and Munster should be looking to replace him over the next season if they want to continue to be successful.

CatFromHue

yosser hughes wrote: »

RO'G was great but needs to step aside for the good of Munster and Ireland.

Podge_irl wrote: »

No one should reasonably expect ROG to step down. I would expect him to stop throwing hissy fits though.

Some of his comments in the press are a bit bizarre all right.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

No one should reasonably expect ROG to step down. I would expect him to stop throwing hissy fits though.

I posted a comment made by BOD in interview last week in another locked ROG thread to the effect that he (BOD) was sick of being asked about when he was going to retire, as was ROG, who told the press the week before he was going to play until he was 38 as he was totally pissed off being asked tht question.

Here is the quote:

“I don’t see any need to put a timeline on when I am going to finish. I spoke to Ronan (O’Gara) the other day and he mentioned 38. He mentioned 38 so people would get off his back and stop asking him as to when he is going to retire. There is no need to be putting a time limit on anyone; if they are in good form and the body is feeling good and mentally they are in a good place I think you play on for as long as possible. Just ask Brad Thorn.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0403/1224314296144.html

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

I posted a comment made by BOD in interview last week in another locked ROG thread to the effect that he (BOD) was sick of being asked about when he was going to retire, as was ROG, who told the press the week before he was going to play until he was 38 as he was totally pissed off being asked tht question.

That interview doesn't bother me. His nonsense after the Aus game and his comments pre 6N were both ridiculous.

RMD

Gd194 wrote: »

sexton is good but all he does is that stupid little loop around and dummy. hes all bark if you ask me!:pac:

What does O'Gara do so? I'll happily admit he's an incredible kicker both out of hand and place too, but his tackling, creativity and running isn't comparable to Sexton.

O'Gara is done, bring him on when a team needs to be kicked to the corners or if Keately is missing easy kicks. In all honesty, other than his kicking and experience (which in an experienced side doesn't bring much over all) he isn't providing anything Keately can't and the experience would do him a world better.

Keately should start for Munster, the experience will bring him on hugely and O'Gara is in decline. It will benefit Munster to a much greater extent to have an experienced Keately in 1-2 seasons time rather than a retired O'Gara and a less experienced Keately.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

That interview doesn't bother me. His nonsense after the Aus game and his comments pre 6N were both ridiculous.

Why would any interview, let alone a brian o'driscoll bother anyone? All you want the interviewee to do is answer questions honestly.

Gd194

RMD wrote: »

What does O'Gara do so? I'll happily admit he's an incredible kicker both out of hand and place too, but his tackling, creativity and running isn't comparable to Sexton.

O'Gara is done, bring him on when a team needs to be kicked to the corners or if Keately is missing easy kicks. In all honesty, other than his kicking and experience (which in an experienced side doesn't bring much over all) he isn't providing anything Keately can't and the experience would do him a world better.

Keately should start for Munster, the experience will bring him on hugely and O'Gara is in decline. It will benefit Munster to a much greater extent to have an experienced Keately in 1-2 seasons time rather than a retired O'Gara and a less experienced Keately.

ROG isnt the problem, he is a fine player by all accounts. i simply believe that the only reason he had a few bad kicks is because of his opposite halfback, conor murray, who is a fine player by all accounts but by the time ROG got the ball the ulster players were right in his face so he couldnt get an accurate kick, note: this never used to happen with stringer, he was the fastest in the world at getting quick ball away i believe if murray could quicken up his pass they would work better at a partnership and ROG would have more time to control the backline, simple as.
this is also the reason why we dont see that spark anymore the defences get up in his face to quickly he hasnt time to do anything so thats why he just shovells the ball away to mafi (who never passes)

phog

BoardsMember wrote: »

I'll put my colours on the mast, I'm a Leinster fan. But I've always been a big admirer of ROG. The point of posting this thread is to see what people feel, particularly longstanding die-hard Munster supporters feel about what Munster should be looking to do with their 10 next year and beyond.

Age waits for no man, Munster rugby have moved on without the following who played in our first H/C game and I see no reason why ROG great and all as he is cant be done without, Keatley and Deasy are the obvious choices as his successor but it could turn out to be JJ Hanrahan or AN Other, god only knows what ideas/plans the next coach will have for the team and the players that over 30 in particular.

Munster H/Cup team V Swansea 1/11/95

Pat Murray (capt)
Richard Wallace
Sean McCahill
Dan Larkin
Ken Smith
Paul Burke
David O'Mahony
John Fitzgerald
Terry Kingston
Peter Clohessy
Mick Galwey
Gabriel Fulcher
Eddie Halvey
Anthony Foley
David Corkery

skregs

I love when people who obviously know nothing about rugby keep harping on with the "Johnny can't handle the international pressure" twaddle.

v Wales 4/7
v Italy 8/9
v France 3/4
v Scotland 5/6
v England 3/3

That's an outstanding 81% placekicking success rate.

sock puppet

Podge_irl wrote: »

ROG was absolutely terrible in the RWC 2011. His kicking was also atrocious in several of the games in the GS.

Nah next RWC we need someone with the cool head of ROG at 10. Who knows we may even repeat our stunning victory over Georgia.

danthefan

skregs wrote: »

I love when people who obviously know nothing about rugby keep harping on with the "Johnny can't handle the international pressure" twaddle.

v Wales 4/7
v Italy 8/9
v France 3/4
v Scotland 5/6
v England 3/3

That's an outstanding 81% placekicking success rate.

He was the 2nd most successful kicker in the 6N this season.

durkadurka

The only disappointing kick he had was the early one vs France.

thomond2006

Podge_irl wrote: »

Keatley was playing fairly well at the start of the season with a run of games behind him. His form has nosedived partly because he has been getting very little game time of late.

Munster need to bite the bullet and move on to Keatley. ROG was a fantastic rugby player and a great servant of Munster and Ireland, but he is now horrendously limiting the team. He stands far too far back and merely shovels ball out to his centres. His famed territorial game has become sparsely used and the odd time he does use it Munster don't compete at the line-out making it pointless.

Over 70% possession and territory in a game and creating almost nothing speaks volumes by itself.

spot on