Ruairí Quinn: Teachers don't appreciate gravity of economic crisis

Brussels Sprout

Drumpot wrote: »

They are no less self vested and clueless/ignorant to what is going on in this country then most people in ireland who are quick to say that cuts are needed, but they throw their toys out of the pram as soon as there is a knock on their door from government asking for them to give an extra contribution to Ireland Inc . .

Reading that reminded me of the description of Major Major Major Major's father from the novel Catch 22:

"He was a longlimbed farmer, a God-fearing, freedom-loving, law-abiding rugged individualist who held that federal aid to anyone but farmers was creeping socialism."

beeftotheheels

K-9 wrote: »

I think you maybe onto something here. When students actually take HL Maths they have a high Honours rate and a low fail rate.

So the problem could well be the poor level of Maths teaching, the syllabus, maybe a middle level Maths is needed at say Junior Cert or 4th year?

Or maybe Physics, HL Maths and Chemistry just aren't subjects for a wider audience.

There is, or at least, was, back in my day, an additional problem. You had to get a C1+ on the higher level paper to do better than an A1 on ordinary level. And even the C1 which might have been risky, was only worth a smattering of points more than the pass A1, which could have been a dead cert for the same student.

So, any students that were borderline C grade, or even pretty comfortable C grades, were advised by my Dad at the latest possible minute, to take the ordinary level paper and walk an A1, rather than put in the work for the higher level paper to maybe garner an extra 10 points. He didn't view the points differential as being worth the work commitment unless he was comfortable that the student would get a B +.

The way the points system worked didn't give the higher level students much of an incentive if they were viewed as being at risk of coming out with less than a solid B, relative to the workload. Yes, some parents would want their kids to do "higher level" maths, and Dad was good with teaching them for 18mths, and then explaining the points system to their parents. He was not good with teaching them for the last 6 if he thought that they weren't going to win from it. I can only assume other long term higher level maths teachers took the same position (logic appealing to decent maths teachers and all) hence the preponderance of higher grades.

The system needs to properly reward kids for taking those courses, even if they come out with Cs.

Godge

Drumpot wrote: »

What is always strange in these discussions is that there is more discussions on what is "fair" (subjective argument). How can people make comparisons with the UK ? Are they getting bailouts from the EU/IMF or are they still in control of their public finances (certainly more then we are!).

The most important thing is that cuts will have to be made, not because its fair or because "they deserve it", but simply because we are in a great depression (certainly in this country). It really still hasnt seeped in yet, I cant say this enough . . I know people in public and private sector jobs who feel they are having it tough when in truth its just that they cant buy a car every two years , go on as many holidays as they used to and have to think twice about using their credit card.

There has to be a revolution of mindsets in this country because people have become accustomed to getting things their way too much and thinking that they are entitled to whatever they feel is right for them. Remember we are in this mess because Bertie gave the public/civil service workers, the pensioners and those on welfare what they demanded. The annual deficit is because we are spending more then we are getting in taxes, not because the banks collapsed (wish people would stop confusing the two!).

In truth, the teachers are not alone. They are no less self vested and clueless/ignorant to what is going on in this country then most people in ireland who are quick to say that cuts are needed, but they throw their toys out of the pram as soon as there is a knock on their door from government asking for them to give an extra contribution to Ireland Inc . .

The simplest answer is for the government to run itself like a private company. Paycuts or job cuts based on a prudent (not populist) budget. Since the government doesnt treat the public money like a private employer would their own, we get waste after waste, complacency and a public workforce that thinks it has an entitlement to take only the cuts that it subjectively feels is fair . .

Ah, but think about the children ! ! An extremely pathetic excuse of an argument. I turn that argument back around, the cuts are gonna have to be made unless there is a ridiculous economic recovery. If the unions continue to protect certain vested groups , then the children and patients in hospitals will be hit, not because they have to be but so that certain employees can keep their own perks/remuneration, instead of us having a more efficient public service (with an appropriate amount of employees on lower wages). .

What would I do if I was ASKED to take a paycut ? I would say "no thanks". What would I do if I was told I could take a paycut and have guaranteed job security or quit ? " Where do I sign" . . Would I be happy ? Of course not, but I dont believe the government is there to service its employees, its there to make the most of our taxes. Give people a choice, but dont make it easy . . Many people are holding out for the EU/IMF to force the changes that our government are too pathetically incapable/unwilling to make.

"There has to be a revolution of mindsets in this country because people have become accustomed to getting things their way too much and thinking that they are entitled to whatever they feel is right for them."

This bit is right but why only apply it to public and civil servants, pensioners and those on welfare? That is the problem with your analysis. Taxpayers have become used to giveaways every year with McCreevy declaring "another 100,000 taken out of the tax net" and no property tax. Oh yeah, and high child benefit for every parent, even if you live abroad. A lot of things have to change including the amount of tax paid by people on relatively modest incomes between €30,000 and €60,000.

It is ridiculous that people on relatively modest household incomes expect to have a big house, run two cars and have holidays abroad but that is what I see around me.

K-9

beeftotheheels wrote: »

There is, or at least, was, back in my day, an additional problem. You had to get a C1+ on the higher level paper to do better than an A1 on ordinary level. And even the C1 which might have been risky, was only worth a smattering of points more than the pass A1, which could have been a dead cert for the same student.

So, any students that were borderline C grade, or even pretty comfortable C grades, were advised by my Dad at the latest possible minute, to take the ordinary level paper and walk an A1, rather than put in the work for the higher level paper to maybe garner an extra 10 points. He didn't view the points differential as being worth the work commitment unless he was comfortable that the student would get a B +.

The way the points system worked didn't give the higher level students much of an incentive if they were viewed as being at risk of coming out with less than a solid B, relative to the workload. Yes, some parents would want their kids to do "higher level" maths, and Dad was good with teaching them for 18mths, and then explaining the points system to their parents. He was not good with teaching them for the last 6 if he thought that they weren't going to win from it. I can only assume other long term higher level maths teachers took the same position (logic appealing to decent maths teachers and all) hence the preponderance of higher grades.

The system needs to properly reward kids for taking those courses, even if they come out with Cs.

I got an A1 in OL Maths, with not that much effort! My extensive cost/benefit analysis told me a B3 (which would have been my highest level at HL, so not blowing my trumpet!) wasn't worth it!

Extra points would help but there seems to be a big disconnect between OL and HL Maths The problem isn't teaching at HL, its the amount of people taking it and how you go about increasing the numbers, maintaining high teaching standards and not dumbing the course down.

Maybe something like a Korean model should be the aim.

seavill

Drumpot wrote: »

There has to be a revolution of mindsets in this country because people have become accustomed to getting things their way too much and thinking that they are entitled to whatever they feel is right for them. Remember we are in this mess because Bertie gave the public/civil service workers, the pensioners and those on welfare what they demanded. The annual deficit is because we are spending more then we are getting in taxes, not because the banks collapsed (wish people would stop confusing the two!).

In truth, the teachers are not alone. They are no less self vested and clueless/ignorant to what is going on in this country then most people in ireland who are quick to say that cuts are needed, but they throw their toys out of the pram as soon as there is a knock on their door from government asking for them to give an extra contribution to Ireland Inc . .

The simplest answer is for the government to run itself like a private company. Paycuts or job cuts based on a prudent (not populist) budget. Since the government doesnt treat the public money like a private employer would their own, we get waste after waste, complacency and a public workforce that thinks it has an entitlement to take only the cuts that it subjectively feels is fair . .

Ah, but think about the children ! ! An extremely pathetic excuse of an argument. I turn that argument back around, the cuts are gonna have to be made unless there is a ridiculous economic recovery. If the unions continue to protect certain vested groups , then the children and patients in hospitals will be hit, not because they have to be but so that certain employees can keep their own perks/remuneration, instead of us having a more efficient public service (with an appropriate amount of employees on lower wages). .

What would I do if I was ASKED to take a paycut ? I would say "no thanks". What would I do if I was told I could take a paycut and have guaranteed job security or quit ? " Where do I sign" . . Would I be happy ? Of course not, but I dont believe the government is there to service its employees, its there to make the most of our taxes. Give people a choice, but dont make it easy . . Many people are holding out for the EU/IMF to force the changes that our government are too pathetically incapable/unwilling to make.

"are entitled to whatever they feel is right for them"

This phrase has to be the most frustrating thing I keep reading over and over and over and over.
I am a public servant. I DO NOT FEEL THAT I AM ENTITLED TO ANYTHING. None of my colleagues feel this way either.
I get a wage, I have a modest life. I will not just agree to take a pay cut every time some expert joe soap tells me I deserve to take one because i work for the PS.
If the government cut my pay they cut my pay. None of us ever claim we are entitled to anything. We want to keep what we have as anyone does. In any job.
I can guarantee you that you never walked into your employer and said look I know the business is struggling at the moment and I know you already cut my pay by X amount but heres another 10 grand just cause I'm such a nice guy.
This as rediclious as it sounds is what you are asking.

"but they throw their toys out of the pram as soon as there is a knock on their door from government asking for them to give an extra contribution to Ireland Inc . ."
a frankly insulting statement to be honest. Its simple if they don't like the answer stop asking the question and just do it. Until that time i will not hand back any of my money.


The part about guaranteed jobs - this ****e again??
We all do not have guaranteed jobs. I am working 6 years this year have worked for longer than a week in 5 schools, if I include time shorter than a week probably 9 or 10 schools. I do not get paid for holidays. I could lose my position AGAIN this September. I am not moaning about this before you all jump on me, I am just contradicting this crap that all teachers are permanent.

You completely contradict yourslef with your last statement about give people the choice. According to you at the moment the PS have the choice and are deciding not to agree.
Don't give anyone the choice. What idiot is ever going to agree to hand over money for no reason.
Like any manager, be a manager and make decisions. And stop this absolute crap of trying to make it look like its all the teachers fault for not handing back money. It is the governments fault for not making decisions and not doing things correctly so live with it and do what needs to be done and at least certain people can get down off their very very high horses.

K-9

Godge wrote: »

"There has to be a revolution of mindsets in this country because people have become accustomed to getting things their way too much and thinking that they are entitled to whatever they feel is right for them."

This bit is right but why only apply it to public and civil servants, pensioners and those on welfare? That is the problem with your analysis. Taxpayers have become used to giveaways every year with McCreevy declaring "another 100,000 taken out of the tax net" and no property tax. Oh yeah, and high child benefit for every parent, even if you live abroad. A lot of things have to change including the amount of tax paid by people on relatively modest incomes between €30,000 and €60,000.

It is ridiculous that people on relatively modest household incomes expect to have a big house, run two cars and have holidays abroad but that is what I see around me.

Low taxes, good public services, well paid, decent welfare! That's the starting point from 5 years ago that Governments have to address, never mind the credit bubble that serviced that for 6/7 years.

We are starting to go a bit off topic though.

beeftotheheels

K-9 wrote: »

I got an A1 in OL Maths, with not that much effort! My extensive cost/benefit analysis told me a B3 (which would have been my highest level at HL, so not blowing my trumpet!) wasn't worth it!

Extra points would help but there seems to be a big disconnect between OL and HL Maths The problem isn't teaching at HL, its the amount of people taking it and how you go about increasing the numbers, maintaining high teaching standards and not dumbing the course down.

Maybe something like a Korean model should be the aim.

I don't think that the problem is that we need to give extra points at HL. I think it is that we need to cut excessive points for OL. The only OL paper I took was technical drawing. I really wasn't remotely talented at it, did no study, yet I got an A1. How on earth that should be comparable to getting a C on a higher level paper is just beyond me.

How one should be able to get a place in a decent university to study a decent degree with a lot of ordinary level papers I don't know.

I'm not saying no points for an OL paper but an A1 on an OL paper should pick up the points where higher level drops off i.e. 40 points for an A1 on OL.

Permabear

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liammur

Permabear wrote: »

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To be honest, I don't think too many people would struggle teaching maths in primary level. The reason for the Irish I'd say is going back about 60 years ago. There is too much Irish taught in school, too much religion, too much emphasis on subjects like music.

Who designs these curriculums? :mad:

Permabear

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liammur

Permabear wrote: »

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A lot of schools don't even have the necessary equipment rendering the whole exercise invalid. The dept have admitted to this.

The other key point is, are we spending enough time with key subjects like maths i.e. maths something like 3 hours, religion 2.5 hours.

deise go deo

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

To be fair, liammur was refering to subject knoweledge rather than Pedagogy.
Most people would not struggle with the content of primary school maths, teaching it effectivly is a different matter though.

liammur

deise go deo wrote: »

To be fair, liammur was refering to subject knoweledge rather than Pedagogy.
Most people would not struggle with the content of primary school maths, teaching it effectivly is a different matter though.

I was indeed, but even the effective teaching of it is subject to someone else's opinion, and then if your school doesn't have the necessary equipment, it can't be taught effectively by the guidelines.

A lot of work needs to be done by those who design curricula.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Brussels Sprout

liammur wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think too many people would struggle teaching maths in primary level.

I think more should be expected of primary school teachers then for them to "not struggle". As someone has already stated the foundations for maths are laid in primary school. Now let's look at two different teachers:

Teacher A) Did Higher level maths at leaving cert and got a B3. Previously had got an A at Junior Cert but found the abstraction of the subject in the leaving cert cycle a lot more challenging and thus dropped a few grades. Still has a great grasp of the fundamentals though.

Teacher Never liked maths. Always saw it as a chore. Never really grasped the fundamentals. Used learn off the example methods without really understanding what they were doing. Got a D in Junior cert higher and a C2 in leaving cert ordinary level. Gifted at languages and got A1's in both Irish and English higher.


Now imagine you have both of these teachers in a classroom with a bunch of 9 years olds and they are teaching them something that is relatively challenging at that age like division.

Teacher B will teach the class in a certain way with no deviations. If anyone asks a question about the flexibility* of this method ("obviously the child wouldn't use that word but that's the essence of their question") they will tell them that "this is the way to do it, not any other way" because that's the way that they themselves learned maths.

Now in this same circumstance Teacher A should be able to think about these kind of questions and actually explore them for their merit rather then dismiss them as irrelevant.

One of these teachers is on their way to producing drones whereas the other is aiding independent thought which is something that is apparently sorely lacking in the education system.


* e.g. In a question "Which of these numbers can be divided by 3 with no remainder: 12, 25, 66, 100, 153?" a particularly observant child might notice that if the sum of the digits of the number are divisible by 3 then the number itself is divisible by 3
e.g. 153->1+5+3=9 which is divisible by 3 or
25->2+5=7 which is not divisible by 3

deise go deo

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Of course, but again, very few people would not be proficient enough in Maths that they would struggle with the subject content at primary level.

In my opinion, and feel free to correct me, the biggest problem is not with the teachers ability in maths but their ability to teach.

And we are paying them such outlandish salaries because of the Corke Park deal, pay peanuts and get monkeys right?

Tigerandahalf

One of the problems at primary is that the teacher is expected to be a jack of all trades. Has to love Irish (even though half the country hate it and think it is useless), be pedantic about spelling, tidiness and grammar and be logical enough to understand and teach math concepts. Plus be good/have a love for science, music, art, etc. That is why it is important that children are exposed to various teachers over their primary schooling. You also have to remember that the teacher has to stick to the curriculum and its methods. Radical thinking is not really part of the deal. The teacher also has to cater for kids who can't do basic sums or maybe even cant count to the kids who fly through it all.

liammur

deise go deo wrote: »

In my opinion, and feel free to correct me, the biggest problem is not with the teachers ability in maths but their ability to teach.

And we are paying them such outlandish salaries because of the Corke Park deal, pay peanuts and get monkeys right?

Correct. Clearly anyone who is not proficient at Maths for primary level is in the wrong job. What are we talking about, addition, subtraction, division, stuff like that.

liammur

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

One of the problems at primary is that the teacher is expected to be a jack of all trades. Has to love Irish (even though half the country hate it and think it is useless), be pedantic about spelling, tidiness and grammar and be logical enough to understand and teach math concepts. Plus be good/have a love for science, music, art, etc. That is why it is important that children are exposed to various teachers over their primary schooling. You also have to remember that the teacher has to stick to the curriculum and its methods. Radical thinking is not really part of the deal. The teacher also has to cater for kids who can't do basic sums or maybe even cant count to the kids who fly through it all.

Very good point.

Would it not be better to have Maths teacher in the school, an Irish teacher etc rather than 1 class teacher teaching everything.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

liammur

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't think anyone would disagree that a maths teacher in post primary should be well up on maths. That applies to every subject in post primary.

But, in primary, the content is so basic that I can't think of anyone who wouldn't master the content. In fact, in my children's school, parents come in and help, the SNA does.

Tigerandahalf

It would not be possible. Teaching is not as easy as people think. I have taught some very weak kids and it is an eye opener. Being a genius isnt much help as a teacher as most of the kids are never going to understand your way of thinking. Simplifying problems so they are understood and giving the child the skills to tackle problems takes knack from a teacher that can only be picked up from the teacher learning what way of doing things works best. This takes time, commitment and patience. You also have to be very organised especially if you are not used to teaching a certain concept. This is why experienced teachers are invaluable and why the Irish system does well as we retain our teachers and their skills and knowledge. The uk loses a huge amount of their teachers after 5 years.

liammur

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

The uk loses a huge amount of their teachers after 5 years.

Why after 5 years ?

Tigerandahalf

liammur wrote: »

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

The uk loses a huge amount of their teachers after 5 years.

Why after 5 years ?

Because the pay is poor and they are sick of the endless paperwork and long hours outside of actual teaching. An example, when I was on teaching practice I had to record which kids could throw the basketball into the hoop. Seemingly this info was important.

liammur

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Because the pay is poor and they are sick of the endless paperwork and long hours outside of actual teaching. An example, when I was on teaching practice I had to record which kids could throw the basketball into the hoop. Seemingly this info was important.

Mind numbing stuff.

Drumpot

seavill wrote: »

"are entitled to whatever they feel is right for them"

1. This phrase has to be the most frustrating thing I keep reading over and over and over and over.
I am a public servant. 2 .I DO NOT FEEL THAT I AM ENTITLED TO ANYTHING. None of my colleagues feel this way either.
I get a wage, 3. I have a modest life. I will not just agree to take a pay cut every time some expert joe soap tells me I deserve to take one because i work for the PS.
If the government cut my pay they cut my pay. None of us ever claim we are entitled to anything. 4. We want to keep what we have as anyone does. In any job.
I can guarantee you that you never walked into your employer and said look I know the business is struggling at the moment and I know you already cut my pay by X amount but heres another 10 grand just cause I'm such a nice guy.
This as rediclious as it sounds is what you are asking.

"but they throw their toys out of the pram as soon as there is a knock on their door from government asking for them to give an extra contribution to Ireland Inc . ."
5. a frankly insulting statement to be honest. Its simple if they don't like the answer stop asking the question and just do it. Until that time i will not hand back any of my money.


6.The part about guaranteed jobs - this ****e again??
We all do not have guaranteed jobs. I am working 6 years this year have worked for longer than a week in 5 schools, if I include time shorter than a week probably 9 or 10 schools. I do not get paid for holidays. I could lose my position AGAIN this September. I am not moaning about this before you all jump on me, I am just contradicting this crap that all teachers are permanent.

7.You completely contradict yourslef with your last statement about give people the choice. According to you at the moment the PS have the choice and are deciding not to agree.
Don't give anyone the choice. What idiot is ever going to agree to hand over money for no reason.
Like any manager, be a manager and make decisions. And stop this absolute crap of trying to make it look like its all the teachers fault for not handing back money. 8It is the governments fault for not making decisions and not doing things correctly so live with it and do what needs to be done and at least certain people can get down off their very very high horses.

1. I didnt limit this phrase to public servants, its a national mindset.

2. So why do the Unions that represent the public servants give this impression ? That the poor old public servants are being targeted for cuts for something they didnt do ? That they didnt "cause the mess", yadda yadda yadda. If you dont support the propaganda that the unions are spewing out then try to get your colleagues to speak out against them.

3. That is the most subjective comment a person could make and I am not sure why this should have a bearing on what wage you get. Your employers job isnt to subsidise your life, its to pay you the going rate and what they can afford. To even mention this is bringing your own financial circumstances into the debate.

4. Who said anything about anybody being happy about taking paycuts? I already stated that nobody should be surprised that people do not want to take paycuts (and that I myself wouldnt be happy). One of my friends asked me how I would feel if I was being made to take paycuts and I asked him, what does it matter if the company I was working for was in financial meltdown ? Focusing on a completely insignificant point (how I feel) at the expense of the only thing that matters (what can your boss afford?!). This is making the topic about how teachers feel, as opposed to what needs to be done.

5. It was a 100% accurate statement on human nature. You didnt read my post as I qualified it by saying if you allow ANY VESTED INTEREST GROUP. I am not limiting my comments to public servants but unlike most people in other employment, the employer actually fears ramifications of making required cutbacks because they know that they can pass the costs off to taxpayers and there is a militant union that can blast the airwaves with propaganada. Whoever has the loudest voice is heard the most and as such their opinions can be made fact in the court of public opinion simply because they have the biggest forum.

6. You represent the entire public/civil service so ? I wasnt speaking about you if you dont have a guaranteed job, so why are you getting upset? Why do you care if people with guaranteed jobs are made to pay for this guarantee in other ways ? Do you not feel there should be a price put on job security in the current climate ?

7.The current choice for the public servants is "please, will you ever just go along with some cuts", whereas it should be "this is what we have to do, you can be part of change or go elsewhere". Having a choice to remain in your job or leave isnt exactly making it easy.

8. I refer you again to http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78073681&postcount=63 which also clarifies your misconception on how I judge public/civil servants any differant to anybody else. You saw red and simply presumed that everything I was saying was limited to your industry.

Our government is letting us all down badly. Cuts in public spending is just one of the many things our politicians have continually proven to be downright useless at fixing. There is an us v them divide in the public/private service because both are living in completely differant worlds when it comes to accountability, being paid what an employer can afford and ramifications if an employer gets into financial trouble.

deise go deo

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yes, though I think that you have to consider that there are other factors than lack of proficiency on the part of the teacher, teachers often feel a responcibility to their students, especially at LC level to help them get the maximum points return possible for time they put in, if the exam rewards learning off techniques rather than developing conceptual understanding of maths, than that is what many teachers will emphasize.

As far as I am aware this was the case in the past, though I am not sure what impact the more recent reforms in the maths curriculum has had on this.

K-9

beeftotheheels wrote: »

I don't think that the problem is that we need to give extra points at HL. I think it is that we need to cut excessive points for OL. The only OL paper I took was technical drawing. I really wasn't remotely talented at it, did no study, yet I got an A1. How on earth that should be comparable to getting a C on a higher level paper is just beyond me.

How one should be able to get a place in a decent university to study a decent degree with a lot of ordinary level papers I don't know.

I'm not saying no points for an OL paper but an A1 on an OL paper should pick up the points where higher level drops off i.e. 40 points for an A1 on OL.

Indeed! Though Universities and Institutes would just lower the points to reflect places? Supply plays a part in the points process too, I would have thought.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Kinski

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Teacher B will teach the class in a certain way with no deviations. If anyone asks a question about the flexibility* of this method ("obviously the child wouldn't use that word but that's the essence of their question") they will tell them that "this is the way to do it, not any other way" because that's the way that they themselves learned maths.

This sort of thing happens in just about every subject. I remember a number of English teachers who "taught" me by repeating "rules" like "Never start a sentence with and or but"; "Animals sweat; people perspire"; and other such nonsense.