Demons

lisatiffany

First off I'm not overly religious so I'm not writing this because I believe that not having god in your life will attract demons or evil spirits, I'm writing this because quite a few people have mentioned demons on past posts and not gotten a lot of answers. I've been reading up on demons for years now so I thought I'd add a little of what I have found in the hopes it might answer some questions.

Demons are not necessarily responsible for hauntings its more of a case that they exist in a place once they act there so the chances of encountering one are slim unless you actively dabble in something that opens a doorway for them to come through to this plane. Human beings only exist in the physical form on this plane but demons can exist on either, if a demon possesses someone then that demon is "here" but only because they are existing through that person. They do have their own plane outside of our world but its not as complex as our own and while humans busy themselves with creating and nurturing life demons only exist to cause harm.

While our own existence is more physical theirs is all about obtaining the knowledge and intellectual skills which they can in turn use against us. They don't use language like we do instead their communication is based on the power of thought. While we rely on words which are symbolic representations of our thoughts demons are at their core spiritual beings so their thoughts are transmitted telepathically without the need for words. There is misunderstanding that demons know the future, the truth is we have free will so human freedom makes it undermined. However because their intelligence is far superior to our own they can predict certain aspects of the future by using observation and deduction on a level we cannot in our physical form perceive. There are times though that because of the vast complexities and variability of human actions even the most intellectual demons can be mistaken in its predictions.

Demons can affect us in life in many ways often it can be mental illness or demonic oppression or even possession. Demonic oppression can occur when a persons guard is lowered to the point where a demon can latch onto that person and feed off of their energy, left long enough it can lead to mental illness. Demons are always looking for a way in and tools like the Ouija board are a perfect doorway for them to enter you're life. The common misconception is that the board puts you in touch with deceased family members but that's not always how it goes. My own theory is that the board naturally attracts whatever is closet to us at the time of operating it, and that means those which are less spiritually evolved than our loved ones who have passed. Demons exist on a much lower spiritual plane, they are less evolved and are therefore the likeliest of contacts to be made during an Ouija session.

As mentioned they are intellectually superior to ourselves and use lies and deception to keep the session going. Why would it benefit them to come through? they latch onto humans and feed off of the energy the board operator puts out. Naturally when the session ends they do not want to leave as easily as they came and will use threats and everything in their power to frighten the operators, the fear we show them feeds them even more and that's when a lot of demons show their true colours. Demons do by nature target people who in our own world who have or will have influence over others, they will work together and coordinate all of their efforts if it means a goal can be achieved, there are even cases of exorcisms where higher demons forced other lesser demons to possess humans and under an exorcism prevented their leaving to the best of their abilities.

The idea that certain activities make it easier from demons to assert their power on our planes is not as out there as it may seem, its widely reported that certain occult practices open you up to demonic entities and I certainly believe it but its not all as arcane as it sounds. Things like heavy alcoholism and drug abuse lowers our spiritual defenses making us easy prey for demons, like attracts like so if a person is living their life through anger or violence they are even more susceptible to encountering a demon. Then what about possession? everyone with even a minor interest in the paranormal understands that the ritual of exorcism is to drive out the dark forces at work in a living person. Though like I said I'm not religious I do actually believe that those forces can indeed be forcefully removed by a religious ritual. My belief is that demons are real entities that do exist in their own dimension and enter our plane to target a person or persons, but while they have that power someone spiritually strong enough can force them back out again.

If however possession is simply a mental illness then the ritual performed by the exorcist can force the possessed into believing and accepting that they are being rid of the dark forces at work inside them. If that's the case and demonic forces exist only in our imaginations then the power of faith and belief is strong enough to cleanse that person, when you bring religion into the picture that belief is reinforced and becomes solidified in the minds of true believers.

Religion in general has always used the devil and the very notion of evil entities to explain away affliction befalling everyday people, from illness to natural disasters religion always turns to blaming it on demons. I have never prescribed to the idea that demons are fallen angels who rebelled against god and were then cast down to hell. I think it makes more sense that they are supernatural creatures that are from an alternative dimension that exists parallel to our own world. Religion will always state that its a physical hell they originate from because it suits religions needs but whether that is actually the case or that they are from another dimension cases of possession and demonic influence are constantly being reported.

Its a common belief in many religions that other dimensions do exist in our own material world but can only be observed through psychic and spiritual awareness. Different religions have their own names and understandings of these dimensions, Buddhists recognize it but preach that its better to avoid it and concentrate on the higher levels. Hinduism sees it as the vast spiritual existence where the akashic records are stored, a non physical existence where all the wisdom of the universe resides.

To believe in other dimensions has been debated and theorized for many years, Einstein himself speculated about the possibility that parallel universes co-exist with our own reality. If indeed these dimensions do exist then its also possible that portals already exist to serve as doorways for demons and other entities to pass through freely. This could explain many high profile hauntings that have existed over extremely long time spans, or that we ourselves can harness enough energy to serve as portals for demons and spirits. Many native american tribes built burial grounds on suspected grounds that contained portals making it easier for their loved ones to reach the spirit world. To this day we are uncertain how the tribes located these areas but my own belief is they found paranormal hotspots by using psychic intuition and deep meditation. Its possible that similar portals exist around our world today and are used by demons and other entities to traverse our physical realm but they can't exist long enough without energy and so things like possession and oppression occur.

My belief is that portals are fixed to certain places around the world and don't move from place to place, I don't know if new ones open up but I definitely think its a subject that merits extra investigation. Locations of suspected portals often produce scientific results such as changes in temperatures and photographs often reveal orbs, lights, mists even figures all unseen by the person taking the photograph. Demons and other spirits are able to pass through these portals because unlike us they are not hindered by a physical body, however in deep controlled meditation and in astral projection reaching those levels becomes possible.

Demons do have their own ranks and types and this is often distinguished by their intellectual level and power over other demons. I believe regular spirits from the light appear white in nature because it reflects their climb up the spiritual ladder. Demons however appear grey or black because their corruption and experiences transforms their etheric body, in extreme hauntings when religious objects come under attack its often common for a black form of mist to materialize, this is either a demon or a lower entity being controlled by a demon.

Lower entities exist more for egocentrical needs rather than anything else, they thrive on all forms of negativity which in turn can open up the doorway for a more powerful demonic force to come through. There are no simple answers to what demons are because their intelligence seriously outweighs our own and the physical laws we have to abide by do not apply to them. Demons can like I mentioned attach themselves to humans through negative emotions and manipulation, manipulation which can lead to controlling any or all facets of a persons life. There is no real way to avoid the attention of them but there are ways to limit the chances, uneducated dabbling in the occult will most definitely make a person more likely to encounter a demonic but often even become more spiritually active can draw them in too. Because they exist to taunt and mislead, a person who looks to become more religiously active can also cross the path of a demon, many priests when studying for the priesthood report encountering demonic entities trying to tempt them away from the live they are attempting to pursue.

The best way to avoid demons is to keep you're aura strong and resilient, I'm not saying live a life of religious virtue. An aura can become weakened by dwelling on negativity, drinking and abusing drugs, it takes a lot to wear an aura down but once it is weakened that is when an entity will make its move. I view demonology as a science and try to avoid the bibles representation and misconceptions as much as possible but I can never get away from the fact that certain religions objects and icons do indeed have an effect on dark entities, it could be just the power of you're own will being reinforced by you're beliefs. Or they could indeed be fallen angels cast out of heaven by god, at the end of the day it all depends on what you yourself believe and sometimes even the belief of evil forces is enough to manifest just that so don't dwell on it too much. ironically its now 3:20am so I'll leave it here.

lisatiffany

Oh and by 3:20am I mean this: the veil between our world and the spirit world is its weakest between the hours of 3:00am and 4:00am, being that time in our world is constant and that in the spirit world its circular then it would make sense that regardless of time zones the veil thins in that particular region. I always have the strongest paranormal experiences between those hours, some people say its the reverse of when christ died (oh wonderful its good friday) but I think its just down to how our reality coexists with the spirit world, most deaths and after death communications occur between those hours too. Either way I hope the above article answered some questions people were asking.

Ziycon

I'm not trying to knock your beliefs but I cant say I agree with any of this, demons are an idea that only exist in christianity, its a word used to describe evil, it doesn't have to be a physical being but rather everything negative that happens in a persons life, some people need to attribute the bad luck to something so they use the idea of demons instead of just accepting its bad luck or just part of life. Demons are a uniquely religous concept/idea.

Sephiroth_dude

Nice post lisatiffany : )

Whispered

Ziycon wrote: »

I'm not trying to knock your beliefs but I cant say I agree with any of this, demons are an idea that only exist in christianity, its a word used to describe evil, it doesn't have to be a physical being but rather everything negative that happens in a persons life, some people need to attribute the bad luck to something so they use the idea of demons instead of just accepting its bad luck or just part of life. Demons are a uniquely religous concept/idea.

I'm not sure about that either, I think that we label things, and we label them differently depending on where we are or when in history we are or local superstitions etc.

"Demons" may be a religious label but surely there are stories from all types of cultures and times which describe what we would call demonic activity.

At the same time, I do agree that angels and demons can simply be the manifestation of good or bad intentions, I don't know if I believe in them at all, but if they do I don't personally think they exist without human intention.

I'd also be very interested in what people think of angels/fairies/nature spirits/sprites. Are they the same with different labels?

lisatiffany

@Ziycon - But I never said Demons were only a christian concept. Demons are recognized in almost every religion and culture around the world, Christianity uses the concept of the Devil as the one true evil archetype. I don't believe in one evil overlord, I don't believe in Satan because its a christian conception. I do believe in demons because they can act independently and carry out attacks/etc without orders, not because they are being told to do it but because its in their nature. A normal person looks like a big mac to a demon because you're energy keeps them strong and revitalized. They are more like psychic vampires than pitchfork wielding monsters but will use fear and lies to get you're pulse racing because the more angry or upset you are the more they get out of you.

If a person is deeply religious then a demon with all its intellect will make that person think they are from "Hell" because it suits the situation, but that doesn't mean they are actually from there. It's entirely possible that there is another dimension which houses them and its also possible that they can crossover to ours because they are not physically hindered like we are. If someone is being terrorized by demons and then out of sheer desperation takes their own life Christianity says they will go to Hell but the way I see it is they are just more susceptible to being stuck between our own world and a higher spiritual existence. The reason that would be a good thing for a Demon is because caught in that state its easier for them to feed off of you're energy and exert more power over you.

At the end of the day its not about turning people against their creator its about one of the most basic needs that every creature has and they are more evolved intellectually in meeting those needs. I do think that sometimes a person can be so plagued that incarnate souls and Demons will force their way into the weakened body of a person, I'm sure not all cases of possession are from Demons but I think some actually are. Like I said I don't think Satan sent them to do it, I think they acted more like parasite with a basic need than a soldier ordered into battle.

I know a lot of Irish people are religious to a certain extent and that's great for them but I don't follow religion in general because it gives so many people who don't know the answers to think that they do, if someone says they will listen to the voice of god then the void gets filled by someone with their own agendas corruptions and of course limitations. I'm by no means a skeptic when it comes to the paranormal but I do employ doubt when its needed and doubt unlike religion is humble especially when human history is a history of getting things completely wrong. The fact is Christianity will mold Demons into what they want them to be because the fear of Hell will gain them more followers. I won't believe what they preach about Demons because though they give some people solace in thinking they can avoid them by turning to god its at a cost of violence, ignorance, bigotry, homophobia and misogyny to one group or another and that just doesn't seem right for an organization that is doing gods work on earth. If I'm wrong and demons are actually the foot soldiers of one true Devil then I can only hope not to cross his path, I guess its the only thing we can all hope for.

Ziycon

@lisatiffany what are your thoughts on demons after watching this video?

I'm interested to see what everyone thinks about demons after watching this video?

Source guide for the video is available at: http://zeitgeistmovie.com/Zeitgeist,%20The%20Movie-%20Companion%20Guide%20PDF.pdf

Note: Strong language and some graphic scenes.

Myrddin

lisatiffany wrote: »

A normal person looks like a big mac to a demon because you're energy keeps them strong and revitalized. They are more like psychic vampires than pitchfork wielding monsters but will use fear and lies to get you're pulse racing because the more angry or upset you are the more they get out of you

This may sound like a stupid question, or even troll like, but I assure you it's not. Admittedly I'd be a skeptic of 99% or paranormal things, but I'm definitely open to the possibilities anyway.

If Demons whole reason for being that you touched on above, is to cause pain/misery/suffering to us...what did they do before mankind was around? Mankind is what, a hundred thousand years old give or take, & has lived on the planet for less than 1% of the Earth's total age. Given they are ethereal in a sense, & vastly more intelligent, I'd assume they've been around for a lot longer than 100k years?

Also one might argue that mankind only arose due to the extinction of the planets dominant species. Had the Dinosaurs not been wiped out, it's very likely mankind would not have been able to evolve in the way it has. Surely that would have meant Demons etc would have had a lot of spare time on their hands?

I suppose I'm using the above to call into account their very existence. It seems to me that Demons only exist because we exist if you get me.

Feel completely free to ignore my stupid points

funnilenough

great text lisa.i'm new to the boards myself and find the paranormal one very interesting.
it was very informative and i found myself asking the question of 'what' and 'why',as in what would an angel do to get thrown out of heaven,and why would they want to get thrown out?
the mind boggles

gillad

EnterNow wrote: »

This may sound like a stupid question, or even troll like, but I assure you it's not. Admittedly I'd be a skeptic of 99% or paranormal things, but I'm definitely open to the possibilities anyway.

If Demons whole reason for being that you touched on above, is to cause pain/misery/suffering to us...what did they do before mankind was around? Mankind is what, a hundred thousand years old give or take, & has lived on the planet for less than 1% of the Earth's total age. Given they are ethereal in a sense, & vastly more intelligent, I'd assume they've been around for a lot longer than 100k years?

Also one might argue that mankind only arose due to the extinction of the planets dominant species. Had the Dinosaurs not been wiped out, it's very likely mankind would not have been able to evolve in the way it has. Surely that would have meant Demons etc would have had a lot of spare time on their hands?

I suppose I'm using the above to call into account their very existence. It seems to me that Demons only exist because we exist if you get me.

Feel completely free to ignore my stupid points

Demons/negative energies feed off the energy of fear.There was plenty of fear in the Dinosaur ages.All animal/reptile fear is the same.

ratticus

Interesting post LisaTiffany, eventhough I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
What sources are you using for all this information? I ask because I have been a ceremonial magician, among a number of other things, for 20 years and have interacted with a fair few of the entities you refer to as demons and in my experience they have been nothing like what you describe.

To everyone else, if you want to know about these classes of entities you would could do worse than reading up on John Dee and the Enochian system of classification or the Lesser Keys of Solomon. Do be careful though, these entities are real, are powerful and have their own personalities and agendas and will **** with you purely for fun if they feel like it. In essence, they can behave just as well or as badly as humans can so be warned. :-)

If you are getting into this field of activity, learn the basics first. Learn how to do a good strong banishing (I find the Lesser Banishing Ritual Pentagram to be pretty good) and practice it A LOT before going any further, I am talking daily practice for months here so you can, literally, do it in your sleep.

squonk

lisatiffany wrote: »

Oh and by 3:20am I mean this: the veil between our world and the spirit world is its weakest between the hours of 3:00am and 4:00am, being that time in our world is constant and that in the spirit world its circular then it would make sense that regardless of time zones the veil thins in that particular region. I always have the strongest paranormal experiences between those hours, some people say its the reverse of when christ died (oh wonderful its good friday) but I think its just down to how our reality coexists with the spirit world, most deaths and after death communications occur between those hours too. Either way I hope the above article answered some questions people were asking.

Sorry? You claim to be a scientist of some kind but would you care to distinguish between circular time and constand time? I'm willing to believe that what you say about deaths occuring between 3 and 4 AM is true but I assume you are talking about that particular time in each time zone. I'd have to also raise the point that in a lot of cases, there may be outside influences at play to bring forth that finding. For instance, in hospitals staff may be busy getting ready for the next shift change and may not be as attentive to patients or even that simply checks may be performed every hour or half hour so things that might be noticed earlier might not get the same attention in time, hence a patient dies. It's sad but true.

I'm sceptical about your various examples of those who are prone to encounter demons. Alcoholism and drug use can cause mental problems. Even the simple fact that the least both these can lead to is malnourishment would be a factor I'd think. I certainly wouldn't call what they encounter demons. You mention also that priests encounter demons along the way in training. How do the natural though processes of any respnsible human being become demons where priests are concerned? Would you ascribe feelings of uncertainty or doubt on the part of a bride or groom in the days before their wedding to be representations of demons also? If not, why not?

Finally, I think you're feeding into a normal human trait that would consider beings we don't understand to be far more intelligent than us. Hanging about looking for inroads into another dimension to feed off negative energy and generally act as a force for bad hardly seems particularly intelligent to me. I'd ascribe that type of behaviour to a simpler animal. We all know that there are classes of insects whose sole motivations are to feed and reproduce. Human behaviour exhibits fare more complex motivations and I think we can all agree that humans are at the top of the pyramid in terms of intelligence and ability. Humans are aware of these other dimensions and are conducting experiments to find ways to breach the divides between these dimensions. If demons are actually superior to us intelligence wise and have been around far longer, would it not make sense to conclude that they would have come up with a way to mobilise whole armies to feed off in one fell swoop rather than relying on the occasional hapless teenager with a ouija board or a helpless alcoholic?

Myrddin

gillad wrote: »

Demons/negative energies feed off the energy of fear.There was plenty of fear in the Dinosaur ages.All animal/reptile fear is the same.

To be pedantic though, evolution to a point where animals feel fear rather than instinct, has only been around for a very, very short time in the grand scale of things.

Before developed brains, it seems there was no place in our universe for Demons, correct?

gillad

EnterNow wrote: »

To be pedantic though, evolution to a point where animals feel fear rather than instinct, has only been around for a very, very short time in the grand scale of things.

Before developed brains, it seems there was no place in our universe for Demons, correct?

I prefer to call them negative energies and they`v been around since the Big Bang.The first battle after the Big Bang was the battle between matter and anti-matter and matter won.The next battle was between the positive and the negative energies of matter.This battle is still going on and its what people call the fight between good and evil.Its not about god and satan or demons and angels,its just energy.This battle will go on forever because energy cannot be created or destroyed,it can be changed from positive to negative.Negative energies dont need intelligent human energies to survive.There is plenty of energy in the universe for them but when they do come across our energy they will feed on it and they will grow and evolve just like us.

Myrddin

gillad wrote: »

I prefer to call them negative energies and they`v been around since the Big Bang.The first battle after the Big Bang was the battle between matter and anti-matter and matter won.

Was that actually a battle though? A battle makes it sound like there'was consciousness involved. Wasn't it simply the balance between matter & anti-matter was uneven, & matter became the dominant one?

gillad wrote:

The next battle was between the positive and the negative energies of matter.This battle is still going on and its what people call the fight between good and evil.

When you say the battle between positive & negative energies of matter, are you talking about Quantum Theory? As in nucleonic forces etc? Or are you talking about actual conscious beings being good & evil?

gillad wrote:

Its not about god and satan or demons and angels,its just energy.This battle will go on forever because energy cannot be created or destroyed,it can be changed from positive to negative.Negative energies dont need intelligent human energies to survive.There is plenty of energy in the universe for them but when they do come across our energy they will feed on it and they will grow and evolve just like us.

So basically Demons could be wandering the universe, feeding on negative energy such as anti-matter, & will actively seek us out? I'm not taking the p1ss here honestly, I'm just trying to see where/how Demons fit into a universe that humans have only lived in for a fractional time of its total age.

gillad

Consciousness was created in the Big Bang or else consciousness created the Big Bang.Whatever happened, everything that came from that moment in time is all the same and it ALL has a conscious.We have evolved enough intelligence to be aware of ourselves and what we are on an atomic level is energy.That is why other energies in this universe have evolved and become aware of themselves and some energies were aware right after the Big Bang.
I dont think these energies actively seek us out but if they get an opportunity they will take it and im sure they are just as curious as we are.They are the same as us,energy trying to suvive in this universe.

lisatiffany

Wow lots of feedback right there. I have been busy on photo shoots and covering Easter Rising commemorations for the last few days so I haven't had a chance to check the thread but its nice to see so much of a varied response. I'll write a proper response myself some part of tomorrow but to Ziycon sorry but I'm not going to watch a 2 hour film on youtube, I'm sure its interesting but I'll catch it some time on dvd or bluray. And to ratticus I don't turn to demons for information of any type or for help of any type they are too dangerous and like you said they have agendas. I do however communicate with spirits through channeling and clairvoyance and I naturally ask a lot about other dimensions and of the creatures that reside there. Time and time again I'm urged to be wary of the 2nd dimension that the demons there want nothing more than to cause us harm and that most of the time that is what the Ouija taps into.

In ceremonial magic you yourself bring the entity into a controlled space which means there is a certain level of control and you know what you are doing. What I'm saying is those same entities can and will cause harm if they are given the opportunity to do so especially if the person coming into contact with them knows nothing about protection on any level. Interacting with entities the way you have being doing is done through you're own chosen situation and it works for you so of course they are going to appear behaved and complacent but if someone does invoke one with no idea how to control or even banish it then they are getting themselves into a whole world of trouble. I've known people on all spectrum of demonic activity, exorcists working with possessed and supposedly possessed people, authors who worked on books dealing with demons and exorcism, covens in the uk and russia who work with entities in controlled and protected spell casting and evocation, people who have had demonic energies in their homes after messing around with spirit boards. When it comes to magic yes it can be a positive thing to have an entity work with you but I honestly believe that they show their true colours once they have no use left for a person or once they are given the opportunity to run wild. At the end of the day we are less evolved than they are and on an intellectual level they can run rings around us like you wouldn't believe. Twenty years is a long time to work in magic for a human but 20 years to an entity is no time at all, I don't doubt they appear to be working on you're side but never let you're guard down.

Ratticus I'm curious how these entities have behaved for you over the years and if you honestly believe that they can be that well controlled?. One worrying thing a spirit told me before was that in order to work with an entity on the Ouija board they have to merge with you're aura to move the planchette, I'd love to think that's not the case but I wonder if the same can be said of magic? Once you have the entity contained in the circle do you not think they would be after something themselves? they don't exist so they can do our bidding so there must be some form of an energy exchange for them too?. You mentioned you do it protected and obviously that's the safest way but do you never wonder that demons especially might take advantage?. I'm not taking a stab at you I'm just curious because anyone I do know that works with entities in magic admit the risks involved are very high especially with the high number of negative energies and entities that are well within range of our own plane. I'm also curious that if you don't believe they are inter dimensional energies and entities that can interact with our world through portals and people then what do you believe they are?/where do you think they come from? and what do you think their agendas are?. Again I'm not taking a stab at you I'm just trying to see what you're own thoughts are on the subject.

ratticus

Lisa:

Demonic entities are bound by their nature, they are energy and cannot act in a way contrary to their particular configuration and as such they can be dealt with in the context of a pre agreed contract.
Demons are very dangerous indeed and should only be dealt with in a clearly defined context. They are like lawyers, they will look for and exploit any loophole ( they are actually just like computers, you put vague and fuzzy demands in and you get vague and fuzzy responses ). They also have a sense of humour all of their own, if you ask them to help you to lose weight they may well arrange for you to lose an arm or a leg as that does technically constitute losing body weight.
You also need to be sure that if you are asking for information or action you are asking an entity who is actually capable of what you are asking, nothing will annoy anyone more, human or otherwise, then to be called to do something totally outside their area of activity.

Quija boards are a really bad idea in any context, you have no control over who may or may not drop by, it is in essence the same as spreading your legs and inviting anyone who feels like to come and have a kick.
I think the spirits you refer to are a different class of being altogether and are far more chaotic and dangerous, I actually think we are talking about different things when we use the term demon.

And lastly, I do not think there is any such thing as negative or positive when it comes to these classes of beings, they are what they are. Electricity can be destructive or constructive, it depends how it is channeled and used, same thing with demons or angels. ( on a side note, demons and angels are pretty much the same entities but just wearing different hats. )

Whispered

ratticus wrote: »

They also have a sense of humour all of their own, if you ask them to help you to lose weight they may well arrange for you to lose an arm or a leg as that does technically constitute losing body weight.

Sounds like those stories of Genies and being careful what you wish for.

ratticus

Absolutely. In all magic you need to be really specific in your requests, it is just like computer programming. You need to define the parameters and what is and is not to be done.
For example, if you are asking for financial assistance, add a stipulation that any monies should not come by way of an inheritance.
Magick is all about correct and very specific use of language. (Spells & Grimoires = Spelling & Grammar)

Ziycon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon

Wikipedia, talks about the origins of how the idea of demons came to be and clearly shows that over the years the idea of a demon has morphed into what so many people think a demon is nowadays when its no where near the truth. Its like a game of Chinese whispers.

I know that Wikipedia is not the most reliable source, once I get the time I'll dig up more concrete sources.

Myrddin

Whispered wrote: »

Sounds like those stories of Genies and being careful what you wish for.

I was thinking the exact same, could the Djinn be considered the same thing?

Crann na Beatha

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Morag

Aquila wrote: »

Is it possible to use astral projection to where these entities reside?

Why give them the home court advantage?
Would you be able to protect yourself from them while astrally projecting?

ratticus

Damn Sharrow, you beat me to it. :-)
Aquila, yes you could but you would need to have done quite a bit of work making sure you can protect yourself first.
But of course you should experiment on your own, let us know how it went. :-)

Crann na Beatha

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ratticus

The energies involved with these classes of entities could shred your personality and mind completely. This would not necesarily be maliciously done but you would not walk into a nuclear reactor core without the appropriate protective clothing, would you?

The worst I have heard of is complete, irrecoverable insanity, a total destruction of the mind.
Not to be overly dramatic but have you ever seen Hellraiser? :-)

Morag

Aquila wrote: »

Im not trying to be flippant with you two but whats the worst that can happen to me?possession?

Well that depends on if you see it as being microcosmic or macroscopic.

Some people see such works of Magick as delving into their own sub conscious and that is all internal to themselves.

Other's see it as stepping out of themselves and dealing with forces of the universe.

Either way you will be causing a shift and change in your consciousness and perception and if you don't have a good base line to start with and you don't know how to undo those shifts you can get stuck and if you are not prepared to deal with what you experience while in such states you can end up messed up and not thinking and perceiving properly.


I would suggest you read up as much as you can about Psychonautics and the down sides of such self transformational practices.

Crann na Beatha

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Dramatik

But can they exist without someone believing that they exist? If nobody believed they existed, would they exist in the first place?

Morag

Aquila wrote: »

But on the upside such practices done in a controlled manner may lead to enlightenment?

Yes and personal empowerment as long as you can cope with the possible downsides and are ready for an encounter with your shadow self.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29

MrMojoRisin

gillad wrote: »

Consciousness was created in the Big Bang or else consciousness created the Big Bang.Whatever happened, everything that came from that moment in time is all the same and it ALL has a conscious.

To an extent, I agree with what you're saying, although I've always reckoned that consciousness was always there because I don't see it as having a beginning, a middle or an end (it's just 'in the now').

I think you're right that consciousness created the Big Bang/physical universe because it needed that spark/instigation. Of course, nobody can prove any of this, but that's what I think anyway.

At the risk of sounding radical, I would go so far to suggest that evolving consciousness, in turn, affects the physical bodies of people; sort of like Darwinian evolution, if you like, except it happens from within. I think this impacts on things like the ability to fight certain diseases as well. For example, I don't think there will ever be a cure found for AIDS, but that more and more people will simply become immune to it as time goes on, making it a non-issue.

Too right as well, because it would be a sweet slap in the face for the U.S. government, whose Department of Defense - on the orders of the Policy Committee of the Bilderberg Group in Switzerland - created and released the virus, firstly into Africa, and then into the U.S., via the Hepatitis B vaccine in 1978.*

It's a bit of a funny coincidence how the virus appeared in the gay communities of New York and San Francisco immediately after the inception of a government-sponsored programme of Hepatitis B vaccinations. Initially, the AIDS thing was just a plan to bring down the population a little and/or cull some members of the gay community, which the U.S. government viewed as a threat. It sounds crazy, I'm sure, but, trust me, a virus as complex as AIDS didn't just appear out of nowhere.*

Getting back OT (ahem, sorry)..

gillad wrote: »

We have evolved enough intelligence to be aware of ourselves and what we are on an atomic level is energy.That is why other energies in this universe have evolved and become aware of themselves and some energies were aware right after the Big Bang.

I think we only developed in awareness so steadily and slowly because we wouldn't be able to process all of it, and the intensity of it, all in one go. I'm sure many more - to borrow from Aldous Huxley - 'doors of perception' will open as time goes on. I don't know if anyone knows what I mean because it's hard to put it into words.

gillad wrote: »

I dont think these energies actively seek us out but if they get an opportunity they will take it and im sure they are just as curious as we are.They are the same as us,energy trying to suvive in this universe.

You wouldn't be referring to the sort of energies that emanate from so-called portals, would you? Or do you mean entities or some other type of supernatural, non-physical beings? Whatever you meant, I agree that we'll know more about them in time. Because they're invisible, I'm sure they've had the chance to know a lot more about us, so we'll eventually get that chance (subtly, but powerfully).

*These are just my personal opinions and are in no way representative of those held by Boards.ie.

MrMojoRisin

ratticus wrote: »

And lastly, I do not think there is any such thing as negative or positive when it comes to these classes of beings, they are what they are. Electricity can be destructive or constructive, it depends how it is channeled and used, same thing with demons or angels. ( on a side note, demons and angels are pretty much the same entities but just wearing different hats. )

But would you not classify something as positive or negative according to its actions? Wouldn't that be an obvious indicator? I know you can't gauge the intention (and the benevolence or malevolence of that intention) of these things to be 100% certain about whether they're positive or negative beings, so you can only judge them on their actions.

For instance, most people think angels are lovely, pretty, innocuous beings because they think they do positive things like save them from imminent danger, give them emotional strength, etc. So how could an angel be neutral like a demon, or vice versa?

I'm sure that, within demons' own usual sphere/world, they see themselves and their brethren as 'good' or harmless, but their power, when applied to human affairs, is destructive because human beings are ill-equipped to deal with things like that.

Morag

MrMojoRisin wrote: »

For instance, most people think angels are lovely, pretty, innocuous beings because they think they do positive things like save them from imminent danger, give them emotional strength, etc. So how could an angel be neutral like a demon, or vice versa?

I'm sure that, within demons' own usual sphere/world, they see themselves and their brethren as 'good' or harmless, but their power, when applied to human affairs, is destructive because human beings are ill-equipped to deal with things like that.

There is the school of thought that all deamons are fallen angels, those who either refused to leave the garden of Eden when they were recalled or those who sided with Lucifer or those who fell of their own accord.

Angelic forces are just that and so few people seem to think that an angel esp those who are warriors won't fúck a person over if it's for their personal greater good or the greater good of others.

Angels esp Arch angels are described as being so powerful that humans are ill equipped to even look upon them properly. Personally I'm not one for mucking around with them, esp when they are the wetwork team for JVH when you look at the book of Moses.

Crann na Beatha

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MrMojoRisin

lisatiffany wrote: »

At the end of the day we are less evolved than they are and on an intellectual level they can run rings around us like you wouldn't believe. Twenty years is a long time to work in magic for a human but 20 years to an entity is no time at all, I don't doubt they appear to be working on you're side but never let you're guard down.

I would have thought that, because demons occupy a lower spiritual plane, they would automatically be less (spiritually) evolved than humans? Apparently they're beings that chose to shun the path taken by, say, angels, who maintain a direct 'pipeline' to the Source, God, or whatever people want to call it.

The fact that demons have the capacity to choose must mean they have consciousness just like humans do, except their consciousness remains at a plateau (because they're immature). Just as the human race projected itself into matter, i.e. living on this planet, demons seem to have created their own separate system/world that co-exists, albeit invisibly, with our one.

lisatiffany wrote: »

One worrying thing a spirit told me before was that in order to work with an entity on the Ouija board they have to merge with you're aura to move the planchette,

That can't be safe. Anyone who attempts to do that is an eejit.

lisatiffany wrote: »

Once you have the entity contained in the circle do you not think they would be after something themselves? they don't exist so they can do our bidding so there must be some form of an energy exchange for them too?. You mentioned you do it protected and obviously that's the safest way but do you never wonder that demons especially might take advantage?.

That's true that an energy exchange of some kind has to take place. It's unavoidable. One of the fundamental physical laws is that every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and I would think that would apply to all levels.

Maybe the demon takes some of the person's vital energy, or life force? So, if that is the case, a person will probably feel the effects of that, manifested in things like low physical energy, poor health, or something, I would imagine.

Honestly though, I can't imagine that, despite supposedly being protected, a person can emerge unscathed from interactions with a demon sooner or later. I don't think anything constructive can come from it...

I've heard of magic practitioners creating energy thoughtforms through the use of collective group intention and energy, to the point that the thoughtform can manifest physically to carry out whatever purpose it has been given. It can be good or bad, or constructive or destructive, depending on the nature of mental energy it's been infused with. They often paint a picture of whatever-it-is as well.

I read about one magic group creating a giant, protective creature to protect an island off the west coast of Ireland from unwanted oil drillers (I think that's what they were - I'm open to correction on that) in the 1980s, and they later heard stories from people, who were completely unaware of the group and their efforts, about seeing a massive creature matching the description of the one they had created near the islands. Apparently the thoughtform was effective because the plans outlined for the island were soon abandoned. Unless it was just a coincidence...

Crann na Beatha

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MrMojoRisin

Sharrow wrote: »

There is the school of thought that all deamons are fallen angels, those who either refused to leave the garden of Eden when they were recalled or those who sided with Lucifer or those who fell of their own accord.

Yeah, I've heard all that, but, ideally, I'd like to separate them from religion and the subjective religious texts. Unless there actually is some truth in what's written about them in the Bible? I have no idea at this point in time..

Sharrow wrote: »

Angelic forces are just that and so few people seem to think that an angel esp those who are warriors won't fúck a person over if it's for their personal greater good or the greater good of others.

I've always thought angels were servants of God though (if various books and all the rest are to be believed)? If they were servants of a benevolent, divine force, I would think that they would be unable to, as you said, f**k a person over. Also, wouldn't they need to have an ego (and the subjectivity that accompanies that) to decide that they dislike someone enough that they want to 'teach them a lesson' as they see it? The way I look at it is that, if angels are so spiritually advanced to be, well, angels, then they wouldn't possess an ego anymore.

Sharrow wrote: »

Angels esp Arch angels are described as being so powerful that humans are ill equipped to even look upon them properly.

You mean that humans can't look at the angels or archangels in their complete form? I've read that alright. I also read that a powerful angel can manipulate its energy to make itself appear in normal, but noticeably radiant, human form - like a bloke in a pair of jeans, or whatever - to accommodate the person's limited perception (visual and spiritual). It's interesting.

Sharrow wrote: »

Personally I'm not one for mucking around with them, esp when they are the wetwork team for JVH when you look at the book of Moses.

Beyond what I've read and heard about them, I don't have anything to do with them. I'm on the fence RE: them, tbh, but I'm always interested in what people say about the subject regardless. I'm not really into religion either - I mean, I couldn't tell you what such-and-such a holy book says about something - but I find it can be interesting in the context of both real-life and supernatural subjects, if you get me.

MrMojoRisin

Aquila wrote: »

Any links to that?i would be very interested to read about it myself.

I only read about it in this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0709072279/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1/275-1040900-0052566?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_r=0DPA5EG1P268RMKKZYD2&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=103612307&pf_rd_i=0919345921 I think the story is mentioned in the second half of the book, which recounts some interesting stories and theories about various things.

The first section of the book deals almost exclusively with actual witchcraft - which, to be fair, is outlined responsibly and ethically - but parts of that are interesting as well.

I'll go see if I can find the exact page number where the story about the thoughtform is mentioned. Hold on..

Okay, the story about the thoughtform manifested by the group is mentioned on page 242 of the book. They created the thoughtform (it seems to have been a sea creature of some kind) to protect seal pups on the Inishkea islands, just off the coast of Mayo, from being systematically slaughtered at the time (1981). Sorry, I don't know where I got the idea about the oil drillers. I read that book months ago, so I forgot.

Anyway, they said they later met a couple who had been ferrying supplies to volunteers who were helping out on the islands, who reported seeing the creature/thoughtform. They said they first thought it was a woman, before realising how odd it was to see a woman perched on a rock in the middle of the sea. They also said she/it was smiling at them. Apparently the thoughtform had been designed to scare away people seeking to cause harm to the islands and the seal pups (how it would even know, and act on, this in reality, I have no idea), but to protect and welcome people who were trying to help, i.e. that couple.

Well, at least people can do positive and useful things with this sort of stuff.

According to that book, every last detail, from the duration of a thoughtform, to what its exact purpose is, can be created.

Morag

Aquila wrote: »

But thats going by Judeo-Christian lore.after all those same ideas were found in ancient Sumerian texts

True I didn't say that the Judeo-Christian was the only school of thought but if you are looking to deal with things from a certain context you have to make sure you have the right context and grasp on them or else you can end up with for all intents and purposes dialing a wrong number.

MrMojoRisin wrote: »

According to that book, every last detail, from the duration of a thoughtform, to what its exact purpose is, can be created.

Which is one of the hazards, people can create such thoughtform either pure creation like running into charazard due to over a decade of kids believing in him or the thought forms which people have put on entity and deity over the years.

MrMojoRisin wrote: »

Yeah, I've heard all that, but, ideally, I'd like to separate them from religion and the subjective religious texts. Unless there actually is some truth in what's written about them in the Bible? I have no idea at this point in time..

There is not that much about then in the approved books of the bible.

There are many more angelic texts then the approved bible, the texts which were uncovered with the dead sea scrolls are interesting and then there are many others.

MrMojoRisin wrote: »

I've always thought angels were servants of God though (if various books and all the rest are to be believed)? If they were servants of a benevolent, divine force, I would think that they would be unable to, as you said, f**k a person over.

Like the one who sent forth the plagues into egypt or caused the walls of Jericho to fall down?

MrMojoRisin wrote: »

Also, wouldn't they need to have an ego (and the subjectivity that accompanies that) to decide that they dislike someone enough that they want to 'teach them a lesson' as they see it? The way I look at it is that, if angels are so spiritually advanced to be, well, angels, then they wouldn't possess an ego anymore.

The text on the wars in heaven between angels would say other wise and so would what is written about the morningstar.

MrMojoRisin wrote: »

Beyond what I've read and heard about them, I don't have anything to do with them. I'm on the fence RE: them, tbh, but I'm always interested in what people say about the subject regardless. I'm not really into religion either - I mean, I couldn't tell you what such-and-such a holy book says about something - but I find it can be interesting in the context of both real-life and supernatural subjects, if you get me.

There are grimore and magick books which deal with angels and archangels which I would not automaticall consider holy. The LBRP calls on them and by working that you open yourself to them and a possible relationship/encounters if that is what you wish.

Whispered

EnterNow wrote: »

I was thinking the exact same, could the Djinn be considered the same thing?

That's what I was touching on earlier, most entities are so very similar (just like all described omnipotent gods) that they appear to be the same things, with different names, whose descriptions and "jobs" developed according to culture.

Leprachauns, hobgoblins, minor demons, djinns, etc are all very similar.

Just like sprites, angels, dryads, nymphs etc are all very similar. Although I'm aware there can be some cross over between the two lists.

This again brings up the question, if they do exist, would they do so without us? Do our thoughts shape them, or do they simply do things and look as we'd expect them to?

Would I see an entity as The Green Lady, while my mother would see the same Entity as Archangel Uriel?

MrMojoRisin wrote: »

For instance, most people think angels are lovely, pretty, innocuous beings because they think they do positive things like save them from imminent danger, give them emotional strength, etc. So how could an angel be neutral like a demon, or vice versa?

Neutral like a force of nature maybe? Rain is at it's best life giving and at it's worst a destroyer. Could the difference be as simple as that? Circumstantial and depending on the surroundings.

EIDT: http://uuquincy.org/talks/20050123.shtml "theory 6" talks about the thoughtform mentioned by Mrmojo.

Ziycon

I think the idea that demons exist is firmly routed in ones own religous beliefs or its a case that some people can't comprehend the idea of demons so they fall back to religon to help them explain it/understand it.
I've spent a good few years with the paranormal and have taken part in pretty much any method of 'communicting' with the dead, to date I've yet to get any response.

The belief in demons, paranormal, afterlife is a completely religous one that has filtred down from older religons over the years and become embellished and elaborated. Everyone is entitled to there beliefs, im not trying to take that away.

The belief in demons is as I said routed in religon and in the fact that its in human nature to want to find answers and to know that when we die that its not over.

ratticus

MrMojoRisin wrote: »

But would you not classify something as positive or negative according to its actions? Wouldn't that be an obvious indicator? I know you can't gauge the intention (and the benevolence or malevolence of that intention) of these things to be 100% certain about whether they're positive or negative beings, so you can only judge them on their actions.

For instance, most people think angels are lovely, pretty, innocuous beings because they think they do positive things like save them from imminent danger, give them emotional strength, etc. So how could an angel be neutral like a demon, or vice versa?

I'm sure that, within demons' own usual sphere/world, they see themselves and their brethren as 'good' or harmless, but their power, when applied to human affairs, is destructive because human beings are ill-equipped to deal with things like that.

I would argue that Angels are anything but lovely, pretty innocuous beings.

There is a school of thought that Angels and Demons are actually the same entities but in different operational modes, Angelic forms being informative and Demonic forms are action based.

I think any energy can be either positive or negative depending on its application. Cancer therapy destroys cancer cells and is seen to be a "good" thing by us but if you were a cancer cell it would be pretty darn "bad".

faceman

I'm mostly with Ziycon in this discussion. If you are talking demons, you are talking demons of religious origin. Anything else is just a la carte demonology. I'll work with the assumption that everyone believes in demons for the purpose of this post.

St. Thomas Aquinas was considered to the be the the Catholic guru on demonology based on his visions and apparitions. He was the first to document hierarchy etc.

Modern day demonologists (not sure if thats even a word) are again of religious background. In particular Fr. Gabriel Amorth and Fr. Jose Antonio Fortea. Their "first hand" experience puts them above any other experts on the topic IMO.

By religious definition, demons are evil. They are filled with hatred for God and humans. There is no middle ground. Why anyone would want to communicate with them is just barmy. Even Aleister Crowley realised that when he was trying to conjure some Egyptian demon yoke.

Of all the books I have read on demons, I'd rate Matt Baglio's "The Rite" as the most riveting.

ratticus

faceman wrote: »

I'm mostly with Ziycon in this discussion. If you are talking demons, you are talking demons of religious origin. Anything else is just a la carte demonology. I'll work with the assumption that everyone believes in demons for the purpose of this post.

St. Thomas Aquinas was considered to the be the the Catholic guru on demonology based on his visions and apparitions. He was the first to document hierarchy etc.

Modern day demonologists (not sure if thats even a word) are again of religious background. In particular Fr. Gabriel Amorth and Fr. Jose Antonio Fortea. Their "first hand" experience puts them above any other experts on the topic IMO.

By religious definition, demons are evil. They are filled with hatred for God and humans. There is no middle ground. Why anyone would want to communicate with them is just barmy. Even Aleister Crowley realised that when he was trying to conjure some Egyptian demon yoke.

Of all the books I have read on demons, I'd rate Matt Baglio's "The Rite" as the most riveting.

I think the term Demon is overused and probably has the incorrect connotations. Where you you place the hierarchies of Johns Dee Enochian system or the Goetia/Lesser keys of Solomon or even the Abramelin spirits?

Sephiroth_dude

lisatiffany wrote: »

I do however communicate with spirits through channeling and clairvoyance and I naturally ask a lot about other dimensions and of the creatures that reside there.

Hope you don't mind me asking,how do you communicate?are you a medium?

Sephiroth_dude

interesting thread so I'm gonna bump it