Placebo Effects vs. Just Getting Weak

mobile w

I was having a discussion with friends of mine who were explaining the powerful effects placebos can have on physical performance (we were talking re supplements at the time)

A few weeks ago I had come to a end of a bulk where I was letting myself eat pretty much whatever I came across. I put on weight and strength, bench got up to 110 1RM with with little trouble. I was aware that when I started cleaning up my diet I would lose some strength but the effects have been pretty drastic. I noticed a substantial drop within one week! I have now dropped just over half a stone and can barely get 95x4, which wouldnt have troubled me before.

I am aware that there is always going to be a decrease in strength with a decrease in body weight but I didnt realise it would be quite so drastic. Is this a normal amount for someone losing weight or could this be my overthinking effecting it?

I started new nutrition about 4/5weeks ago, gone from just over 13st to just under 12.5. Im 5'10.

Hanley

How you feel in one training session isn't really indicative of anything because there's so many possible things that could have caused it

But 95x4 is about 110x1 anywys, so i'm not sure what the issue is...?

mobile w

i feel much weaker but i might test my 1rm over the weekend again to see where im at.

should be effects of cleaning up diet(also running a cal deficit) be drastic though? for some reason i was expecting something gradual or even marginal.

cc87

What does your clean diet entail??


Maybe you just arent eating enough to fuel your workouts or you could just need to deload for a few days

mobile w

cc87 wrote: »

What does your clean diet entail??


Maybe you just arent eating enough to fuel your workouts or you could just need to deload for a few days

as i said i went from what was effectively a dirty bulk (was eating pretty much anything i wanted) to cleaning up MY diet, not saying it is perfect.

that being said my diet is mainly all kinds of meat (love all meat so bit of everything), carbs mainly from leafy veggies but amnt cutting all brown pastas/ rice etc, my fat sources come mainly from nuts and oils. normally have a cheat day once a week, trying not to get too crazy. i initially started with a cyclical ketogenic diet but i found the carb cravings pretty difficult so changed to just a simple calorie deficit (taking in approx 2000 per day). i ahve been losing weight fairly slowly and steadily so am happy about that side of things.

i understand that less food=less fuel, which most likely means a dip in performance but how large a dip should one expect is pretty much what im getting at? is a sharp 10kg drop on a bench for instance a natural result or just someone over thinking the process?

Hanley

mobile w wrote: »

as i said i went from what was effectively a dirty bulk (was eating pretty much anything i wanted) to cleaning up MY diet, not saying it is perfect.

that being said my diet is mainly all kinds of meat (love all meat so bit of everything), carbs mainly from leafy veggies but amnt cutting all brown pastas/ rice etc, my fat sources come mainly from nuts and oils. normally have a cheat day once a week, trying not to get too crazy. i initially started with a cyclical ketogenic diet but i found the carb cravings pretty difficult so changed to just a simple calorie deficit (taking in approx 2000 per day). i ahve been losing weight fairly slowly and steadily so am happy about that side of things.

i understand that less food=less fuel, which most likely means a dip in performance but how large a dip should one expect is pretty much what im getting at? is a sharp 10kg drop on a bench for instance a natural result or just someone over thinking the process?

Jesus man. 95x4 from 110x1 does not equal a 10kg drop off.

And you're looking at 2 distinct workouts and not part of a larger plan. There's numerous other reasons why you might have struggled on a given day.

Assessing your diet is meaningless without know kcal intake or quantities of food.

...but since you seem to just want to hear your diet made you weak; "your diet made you weak, go back to your dirty bulk".

mobile w

Hanley wrote: »

Jesus man. 95x4 from 110x1 does not equal a 10kg drop off.

And you're looking at 2 distinct workouts and not part of a larger plan. There's numerous other reasons why you might have struggled on a given day.

Assessing your diet is meaningless without know kcal intake or quantities of food.

...but since you seem to just want to hear your diet made you weak; "your diet made you weak, go back to your dirty bulk".

what i am saying is that i do not feel as comfotable with the weights as i did previously. i have felt this way for at least 3/4 weeks not a given day.

i said im taking in approx 2000cal, i say approx because im always a bit sceptical of online calculators (using myfitnesspal).

ok, so my question remains, taking my predicament out of the equation seen as it is clear i just want to hear what i want to, if person X was to reduce their calories by 500/600 per day should they notice much the way of a decrase in strength? if so, how steep would the curve be on this change?

thanks for the help

Gummy Panda

mobile w wrote: »

ok, so my question remains, taking my predicament out of the equation seen as it is clear i just want to hear what i want to, if person X was to reduce their calories by 500/600 per day should they notice much the way of a decrase in strength? if so, how steep would the curve be on this change?

thanks for the help

From reading Lyle McDonalds books, a decrease in calories shouldn't effect existing strength but volume. He recommends keeping the weight high and lowering the sets.

Hanley

How big was your kcal surPlus previously?

How many hours a week do you spend on physical activity?

Is your non exercise activity level high? (walking, "playing", etc...)

Kcals seem within range assuming they're being calc'n correctly so it could be meal timing. Or you're training's just stagnating in some way and you need to change it up to see increased progress.

Hanley

Gummy Panda wrote: »

From reading Lyle McDonalds books, a decrease in calories shouldn't effect existing strength but volume. He recommends keeping the weight high and lowering the sets.

Mass moves mass. A decrease in weight as a result in a decrease in kcals can very certainly effect strength.

I don't think that should be the case for the OP given relatively low weight loss tho.

Gummy Panda

Hanley wrote: »

Gummy Panda wrote: »

From reading Lyle McDonalds books, a decrease in calories shouldn't effect existing strength but volume. He recommends keeping the weight high and lowering the sets.

Mass moves mass. A decrease in weight as a result in a decrease in kcals can very certainly effect strength.

I don't think that should be the case for the OP given relatively low weight loss tho.

Good point. I was thinking very short term rather then 3-6 months down the line.

mobile w

Hanley wrote: »

How big was your kcal surPlus previously?

How many hours a week do you spend on physical activity?

Is your non exercise activity level high? (walking, "playing", etc...)

Kcals seem within range assuming they're being calc'n correctly so it could be meal timing. Or you're training's just stagnating in some way and you need to change it up to see increased progress.

beacause i wasnt watching what i was eating i never worked it out but i would hazard a guess and say i was at least at a 500surplus (i steadily increased weight and fat).

rough estimate of at least 8 hours exercise a week (weightlifting, cardio, mobility and cycle to and fro work/college)

non exercise levels wouldnt be high. im doing a masters and work at a desk so leaves me pretty sedentary.

its not a huge deal or anything i was just suprised by the immediate nature of the drop in strength. it made we think it was just my mind expecting a drop in strength and body following suit rather than any physiological/nutritional reasoning.

but you think it could simply be a plateau issue?

calfmuscle

Are you timing your meal appropriately around your strength sessions?

You don't want too much insulin circulating as you begin your resistance training as it can lead to hypoglycaemia/feelings of weakness during your training sessions.
I know some of the guys in my gym will take glucose tablets through out their lifting.
Although a better way to ensure good control maybe to have a small protein/carb/fat snack one hour before lifting so the fat and protein slow the breakdown of the carb and you should be finished before your sugar levels drop from the full affects of the insulin.

mobile w

calfmuscle wrote: »

Are you timing your meal appropriately around your strength sessions?

You don't want too much insulin circulating as you begin your resistance training as it can lead to hypoglycaemia/feelings of weakness during your training sessions.
I know some of the guys in my gym will take glucose tablets through out their lifting.
Although a better way to ensure good control maybe to have a small protein/carb/fat snack one hour before lifting so the fat and protein slow the breakdown of the carb and you should be finished before your sugar levels drop from the full affects of the insulin.

i normally dont eat before going to the gym. i go around 5.30/6pm but wont have eaten since lunch (normally a large chicken salad), i drink a bcaa supplement during it as i find it holds off any cravings until im finished and can get a big meal into me.

calfmuscle

mobile w wrote: »

i normally dont eat before going to the gym. i go around 5.30/6pm but wont have eaten since lunch (normally a large chicken salad), i drink a bcaa supplement during it as i find it holds off any cravings until im finished and can get a big meal into me.

Give a snack before hand a go, I know I cant do my best lifting if I have let myself go 4 hours without food.

Naos

mobile w wrote: »

its not a huge deal or anything i was just suprised by the immediate nature of the drop in strength.

Not to be rude OP, but you're missing Hanleys point and he has made it as clear as day.

Your 1RM was 110kg.

You're now doing 95kg x 4 - What is the problem?

Two questions:

1) What is your current 1RM?
2) When you were doing your dirty bulk, how many reps would you get with 95kg?

mobile w

Naos wrote: »

Not to be rude OP, but you're missing Hanleys point and he has made it as clear as day.

Your 1RM was 110kg.

You're now doing 95kg x 4 - What is the problem?

Two questions:

1) What is your current 1RM?
2) When you were doing your dirty bulk, how many reps would you get with 95kg?

as i said previously i havent tested my 1rm in a while but i will. today i did 95x3 on my final set.

i didnt test my max reps@95 during my bulk, i was able to get 2 or 3 @100 if that means anything.

as i said its NOT a problem. taking me out of the equation, what i am asking is if 'someone' was to be eating a cal surplus then move to a cal deficit and lose some weight how sharp a decrease in strength should they expect? should it be big a change or could someone overthinking it make it tougher on themselves?

the general feeling im getting is that it shouldnt make that big a difference and it may be nutrition, energy or something else. i was just wondering if the fact that someone might EXPECT a drop in performance may lead to a greater drop than if they did not know it was coming. (if that makes any sense)

deadlybuzzman

if I read what you're asking correctly then
Point 1: Maintaining Strength on a calorie deficit
On most lifts I think you can, bench will be hardest to keep it on and apart from that Ive done it on deadlift squat and overhead press-the main thing is to be gradual dont go on some big keto crash diet thing, a crash is never good.
Most important thing is to make sure you have suficient carbs in youre system when youre lifting,
A tip I got on another site was to reduce volume but maintain the top weights

Point 2: The placebo effect
If you think you're weak then you are-simple as. mental attitude could add or take away 10%-15% of your max

bottom line
have plenty in the tank when you lift and keep your expectations up!