Sonny Liston VS Wladimir Klitschko: Who'd win?

RiseToTheTop

Both in their prime, who'd win IYO? IMO Liston takes it.

He had one of the best jabs of all time. Fair enough, he didn't catch Clay/Ali with it but Ali was very quick and elusive and could move in and back to the outside quickly. Wladimir would be a lot less quicker than Clay and would be easier to hit IMO.

Vital IMO is Liston's reach. 84 inches (He was 6 foot half an inch tall!) is longer than Wladimirs and Wladimir would have to change his gameplan. IMO Wladimir can't outjab Liston. Liston had an awful lot of power in the jab though, definitely one of those guys that can KO you with the jab.

Sorry ive no poll for this, i'm posting from my iPhone and there is no poll option available. Mod can you add one please.

Henno30

Liston must have been one of the most terrifying men that any boxer ever had to see staring back at them from the other corner.



Jesus.

cowzerp

Not sure

Wlad in my opinion, better boxer and both have similar attributes-not a foregone conclusion and in a 10 match serious I'd give Liston 3-10

Maravilla33

Klitschko

Liston, and by a country mile for me. Agree with the op that Liston with his ramrod jab and freakishly long reach wins the battle of the jabs and renders Wlad's usual gameplan useless. His jab alone will hurt Wlad. Concussive power in either hand, under rated boxing skills and he was pretty durable. The same cannot be said for Wlad who I cant see lasting past half way.

Don't confuse the Liston that fought Clay with the best version of him. He was ignored long before he got his title shot and past his best by then.

RiseToTheTop

Klitschko

cowzerp wrote: »

Wlad in my opinion, better boxer and both have similar attributes-not a foregone conclusion and in a 10 match serious I'd give Liston 3-10

How would Wlad negate Liston's longer reach?

Plus IMO Liston's jab is equal with Lewis, if not more power in it.

badabing106

Not sure

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

How would Wlad negate Liston's longer reach?

Plus IMO Liston's jab is equal with Lewis, if not more power in it.

You seem to forget that vladamir
is 6 inches taller, not to mention the greater speed and accuracy of vladamirs jab

section4

Klitschko

liston easy, different class. The only adavantage wlad had is height and this is negated by listons long reach. Liston was a very good techinical boxer a league bove anyhting wlad faced. Liston only lost 4 fights, 2 against ali, one to marty marshall where he had his jaw broken because he was laughing at marshall who he stopped in the return, and finally to leotis martin when he was anyhting from 38-48. He faced every decent contender for years before he got a title shot and was never stopped or even remotely near it in any of those fights in his prime.

cowzerp

Not sure

badabing106 wrote: »

You seem to forget that vladamir
is 6 inches taller, not to mention the greater speed and accuracy of vladamirs jab

Exactly, meaning his arms are closer to Listons head, so the reach factor is not what it sounds, a couple of inches reach is easily negated by a few inches of height!

Wlad has better control of range and would frustrate Liston, if Liston could make it a war then he may win, or get knocked out while Wlad is just not letting him do that.

walshb

Klitschko

If anyone is getting knocked out here it is Wlad. Liston had a solid beard and a far better array of shots. Strong as an ox. Liston also knew how to win, to adapt, to fight in close and at distance. He would know well that standing off sees him lose. He has the physical power and strength to push Wlad back, force the pace, get close and KO Wlad. Liston is a bad match for Wlad.

badabing106

Not sure

walshb wrote: »

If anyone is getting knocked out here it is Vlad.

Yes, if he goes looking for a brawl and quick finish like he did pre 2004.

badabing106

Not sure

section4 wrote: »

liston easy, different class. The only adavantage wlad had is height .

He has a slight 35ilbs athletic size advantage as well? 90%of the fighters Liston fought were Alot lighter than him, most of the fighters he fought were less than 200ilbs. It is a big step up fighting someone that much bigger who isn't a fatso

Maravilla33

Klitschko

cowzerp wrote: »

Exactly, meaning his arms are closer to Listons head, so the reach factor is not what it sounds, a couple of inches reach is easily negated by a few inches of height!

Wlad has better control of range and would frustrate Liston, if Liston could make it a war then he may win, or get knocked out while Wlad is just not letting him do that.

You're completely underestimating Liston's boxing skills here. He wasn't some crude slugger. Wlads an expert at controlling range and distance when he's in against mediocre opponents who don't have the tools to trouble him. Really cant see Wlad stopping him either. I think Wlad would be genuinely fearful about facing someone as well rounded and intimidating as Sonny who at some point is going to catch him.

I cant think of too many worse match ups for Wlad than Liston. Maybe only Foreman would be worse.

cowzerp

Not sure

Maravilla33 wrote: »

You're completely underestimating Liston's boxing skills here. He wasn't some crude slugger. Wlads an expert at controlling range and distance when he's in against mediocre opponents who don't have the tools to trouble him.

Who did he beat that was so impressive?!
Patterson was tiny at heavyweight and after that there is no one else i can think of, Ali easy beat him and after that he beat nobody of any note and just fought journeymen.

Like all old Boxers-Romantic false views is what is remembered and facts are forgot.

Wlad is on a whole different level than Liston.

walshb

Klitschko

Clay/Ali always beats Liston, and any version of Liston. As mentioned, styles are very important. Wlad is a tricky macth for Ali, Holmes and some other slick and skilled boxers. Liston, Foreman, Tyson are bad for Wlad. Power, strength, no fear, aggressive, come forward, solid chin, and wicked hitters. Wlad was brutalised twice by men not close to Liston's talent and overall versatility.

I would have to back the boxer/puncher/power man Liston here. Liston will not be content to stay at bay and try to outjab and out box Wlad. He will be pressuring and throwing heavy shots with Wlad on the back foot.

Wlad likes time, space and distance. Liston won't give him the space and distance to be effective.

Maravilla33

Klitschko

He beat everyone he could have beat at the time including the likes of Cleveland Williams, Folley and Machen. Who was there around that he didn't fight? Again I'll have to stress that Liston was nowhere near his peak when he won the title. He'd been ignored for years despite being the obvious number one contender. By the time he fought Clay he was past his best. I also wouldn't hold losing to the greatest heavy that ever lived against him either.

There's nothing romantic about my view either. I rate Wlad a lot higher than most do but Liston is all wrong for him on so many levels.

cowzerp

Not sure

Maravilla33 wrote: »

He beat everyone he could have beat at the time including the likes of Cleveland Williams, Folley and Machen. Who was there around that he didn't fight? Again I'll have to stress that Liston was nowhere near his peak when he won the title. He'd been ignored for years despite being the obvious number one contender. By the time he fought Clay he was past his best. I also wouldn't hold losing to the greatest heavy that ever lived against him either.

There's nothing romantic about my view either. I rate Wlad a lot higher than most do but Liston is all wrong for him on so many levels.

You said Wlad had Mediocre opponents, Listons where god damn awful-i never said he dodged anyone, he simply fought 2 names and 1 was tiny, the other anihilated him easily twice. So the opponents list does not give any credence to the argument, Wlad would have fought far bigger opponents than Liston.

RiseToTheTop

Klitschko

badabing106 wrote: »

He has a slight 35ilbs athletic size advantage as well? 90%of the fighters Liston fought were Alot lighter than him, most of the fighters he fought were less than 200ilbs. It is a big step up fighting someone that much bigger who isn't a fatso

Liston weighs in at around 218-220 lbs fit. I doubt there would be 35lbs difference. Looking at Wladimir record, he never weighed in over 250lbs. 247 was his heaviest against Samuel Peter, he was 238lbs against Ibragimov a couple of years ago.

Also, I say Cleveland Williams would have been one of Liston's best opponents. Williams had a huge punch.

Before Liston-Clay 1, people were saying Liston was the best Heavyweight of all time, even Joe Louis said that he was. That is the mystique he had, his persona. I would rate him next to Foreman/Tyson in terms of able to intimidate opponents before the bell, I say he could do a job on Wladimir before the fight.

section4

Klitschko

cowzerp wrote: »

You said Wlad had Mediocre opponents, Listons where god damn awful-i never said he dodged anyone, he simply fought 2 names and 1 was tiny, the other anihilated him easily twice. So the opponents list does not give any credence to the argument, Wlad would have fought far bigger opponents than Liston.

that is one of the most ignorant statements i have ever read here in relation to heavyweight boxing in the early sixties.
Do you know anyhting about early sixties heavyweights boxing and the boxers who were rated at the time.

Here are the rating from he was champ

Sonny Liston, Champion

1.Cassius Clay
2.Doug Jones
3.Ernie Terrell
4.Cleveland Williams W tko 2 W tk 3
5.Zora Folley W ko 3
6.Eddie Machen W UD 12
7.Floyd Patterson Wko 1 W ko 1
8.Karl Mildenberger
9.George Chuvalo
10.Brian London

And here are the rating from when he was No 1 con and Patterson was champ.

Floyd Patterson

1.Sonny Liston
2.Eddie Machen W UD 12
3.Zora Folley W ko 3
4.Alejandro Lavorante
5.Robert Cleroux
6.Ingemar Johansson
7.Cleveland Williams W ko 2 Wko 3
8.Henry Cooper
9.Cassius Clay
10.George Logan

He also beat dangerous guys like Nino Valdes, beat who was rated no 2.
He fought every good fighter put in front of him and beat them and the rest would not fight him.

who has wlad fought, nobody of any consequence in the history of heavyweight boxing.

cowzerp

Not sure

section4 wrote: »

that is one of the most ignorant statements i have ever read here in relation to heavyweight boxing in the early sixties.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=009031&cat=boxer
its all here, look at Wlads, lots more legit fighters and bigger on his record.

you can sugar coat Liston all you want-i'm not knocking him, he's just not all that and Wlad would bash him

walshb

Klitschko

section4 wrote: »

who has wlad fought, nobody of any consequence in the history of heavyweight boxing.

He fought Lamont Brewster and Corrie Sanders?;)

Seriously, forgetting opposition, and looking at how both men operate, perform and fight, I would say Liston is better. More versatile, as heavy handed, as physically strong, a better chin, and most of all, a more committed and willing fighter. That is what separtes them. Liston comes to simply fight and destroy. Wlad's patience, caution, and chin won't see him win this.

This opposition talk at times is futile. We cannot change who they fought, the era, the depth etc.

If Ali or Foreman or Tyson were around today, would we slate them or criticise them because all they were faced with was Haye, Solis, Povetkin etc?

They would still be brilliant. So, leaving eras aside, and leaving opposition aside, Wlad won't win this. Liston is too much. Too determined, heavy handed and all around bullish to lose.

Maravilla33

Klitschko

cowzerp wrote: »

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=009031&cat=boxer
its all here, look at Wlads, lots more legit fighters and bigger on his record.

you can sugar coat Liston all you want-i'm not knocking him, he's just not all that and Wlad would bash him

I have to laugh. To put it simply Wlad's one of the most fragile dominant heavyweight champions there's ever been. Liston one of the most powerful and destructive. Does not end well for Wlad.

cowzerp

Not sure

Maravilla33 wrote: »

I have to laugh. To put it simply Wlad's one of the most fragile dominant heavyweight champions there's ever been. Liston one of the most powerful and destructive. Does not end well for Wlad.

That's fine if that's your opinion, my opinion is that Liston won't hit Wlad to test that.

walshb

Klitschko

cowzerp wrote: »

That's fine if that's your opinion, my opinion is that Liston won't hit Wlad to test that.

Over 36 minutes you don't think Liston can score clean with his left hook or right cross, or a combination of both? Wlad's tactics of jab, jab, right, hold, pull down and step back won't win this. Won him many fights against far less talented heavyweights.

cowzerp

Not sure

walshb wrote: »

Over 36 minutes you don't think Liston can score clean with his left hook or right cross, or a combination of both? Wlad's tactics of jab, jab, right, hold, pull down .

No I don't, and Liston coming at Wlad aggressive would suit Wlad

section4

Klitschko

cowzerp wrote: »

No I don't, and Liston coming at Wlad aggressive would suit Wlad

in the first instance, wlad could not hurt liston.
in the second instance liston could ko him easy with either hand and hurt him big time with that jab.

liston knows this wlad knows this, the fight would not happen if wlad s promomters hav e their way, thats the first thing.

it would simply be a matter of time, liston was a good combination puncher and in an era when heavywights trained and were very fit liston was used to fighting fight guys who had heart and came to fight. Wlad fights in an era when guys are fat unfit unmotivated and scared, he is not used to the same level of competition.

Wlad has been exposed and stopped in his prime by guys who lets face it are nothing.

Liston was never stopped in his prime and after fighting guys like cleveland williams, nino valdes et al and would have no problem with wlads punchdes.

listons jab would get to wlad straight away and hurt him, thats vlads first problem, and he is fighting a guy here who is going to be following up with a serious right hand and left hook, a guy who was one of the most powerful heavyweights ever, he had the biggest fist of any heavywieght. could jump over the top rope into the ring. This is something that is over looked with liston he was a very fit guy for his weight and power. He had the fitness and atrength to pursue wlad ever minute with the threat of serious damage if vlad slipped up, which he would.
Wlad has proved to be very fragile and thats mixing in very ordinary company.
Its not even a contest.

badabing106

Not sure

section4 wrote: »

in the first instance, wlad could not hurt liston.


liston knows this wlad knows this, the fight would not happen if wlad s promomters hav e their way, thats the first thing.

Are you having a laugh ?

section4 wrote: »

listons jab would get to wlad straight away and hurt him, thats vlads first problem,hats vlads first problem, and he is fighting a guy here who is going to be following up with a serious right hand and left hook, a guy who was one of the most powerful heavyweights ever, he had the biggest fist of any heavywieght. could jump over the top rope into the ring. This is something that is over looked with liston he was a very fit guy for his weight and power. He had the fitness and atrength to pursue wlad ever minute with the threat of serious damage if vlad slipped up, which he would.
Wlad has proved to be very fragile and thats mixing in very ordinary company.
Its not even a contest.

Vladamir would be first to the jab everytime .He is faster at executing his jab. I don't care if Liston can jump over a rope. He would be made to look slow and ponderous against someone like Vladamir

Do you think the considerable size difference is a non issue ?

RiseToTheTop

Klitschko

What considerable size difference? There wouldn't be 35lbs difference as some people make out. I reckon there'd be around 25lbs size difference. In the lower divisions there is that difference (or very close to) sometimes when a fighter rehydrates and another doesn't.

Liston is a natural heavyweight, this isn't Adamek who jumped from 175lbs to 217lbs by lifting weights and eating lots of protein.

I don't believe Wladimir would be faster with the jab. Also I believe Liston would still have the advantage with his arm length, regardless of the height advantage.

badabing106

Not sure

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

What considerable size difference? There wouldn't be 35lbs difference as some people make out. I reckon there'd be around 25lbs size difference. In the lower divisions there is that difference (or very close to) sometimes when a fighter rehydrates and another doesn't.

Liston is a natural heavyweight, this isn't Adamek who jumped from 175lbs to 217lbs by lifting weights and eating lots of protein.

I don't believe Wladimir would be faster with the jab. Also I believe Liston would still have the advantage with his arm length, regardless of the height advantage.

Okay , say there is only 25ilbs pounds difference. Who do you think would be in better physical omptiment fighting shape ?Someone from the the 1960's or a Klitschko? Do you think that 25ilbs difference is not an issue ?

I am pretty sure ( based on watching alot of tape) that Vladamir has a noticeably faster Jab than Liston ?

section4

Klitschko

badabing106 wrote: »

Are you having a laugh ?




Vladamir would be first to the jab everytime .He is faster at executing his jab. I don't care if Liston can jump over a rope. He would be made to look slow and ponderous against someone like Vladamir

Do you think the considerable size difference is a non issue ?

klitchko could be first to the jab all day long, the point i am making is that liston would just walk through that jab, throw his own jab and combos which will hurt vlad big time. And when they are close together forget it, liston would have him out of there in no time, there is no way klitchko can afford to stand with liston. Klitchko is a robot who if left in his comfort zone will outbox you all day long, and that works if you fight the level of guys he fights but not with some one like liston who is out of his league.

size difference, i would say that sonny liston is much stronger naturally than klitchko, he was just one of those guys who is abnormally strong, ie: the biggest fist of any heavyweight champ ever.
Cleveland Williams was 6 3 and one hell of a hitter and liston had him out of there in 2 and 3 rounds.
I can see liston having an easy night against the fragile light hitting klitchko, he would have nothing to fear and would be far too strong and robust for klitchko.
And as regards floyd patterson being Tiny, he was small for a heavyweight but he beat a few good heavies in his day and I would have no hesitation in saying if he was nearly the same physical size of todays heavyweights he would beat klitchko easy.

I ask again what heavyweight of any consequence in heavyweight history has he beat, none.

He has been stopped by guys who would not even be in the top ten in Listons day. You dont compare a guy who has been stopped by
Lamon Brester
Corrie Sanders
ROSS PURITY
with an all time great like liston if you know your history.

Size only counts if the guy you fight is about the same level as yourself or less, in this case we are talking about two different levels of fighters.

section4

Klitschko

badabing106 wrote: »

Okay , say there is only 25ilbs pounds difference. Who do you think would be in better physical omptiment fighting shape ?Someone from the the 1960's or a Klitschko? Do you think that 25ilbs difference is not an issue ?

I am pretty sure ( based on watching alot of tape) that Vladamir has a noticeably faster Jab than Liston ?

better physical omipotent shape: You look at the guys fighting in the sixties and even seventies at heavyweight and look at their muscle tone, these guys were very fit. Liston was a very strong guy with a very strong core, he could do handstands with his head resting on a table and hold his whole body straight up and then move it from side to side, thats takes enormous natural strength for a heavyweight, can you see kilitchko doing it no i dont think so because the weight to power and leverage ratio would be all wrong, in that his big long body would not be able to generate the sort of power to hold his body up and move it from side to side. And that the reason the size in this instance wont make any difference. because his size will not allow him to generate the same centrifugal power as liston and when liston gets near which he will do then that power will show big time. And as some one else said liston was not a plodder he had good balance and threw good correct puncher with a ramrod jab.

badabing106

Not sure

section4 wrote: »

better physical omipotent shape: You look at the guys fighting in the sixties and even seventies at heavyweight and look at their muscle tone, these guys were very fit. Liston was a very strong guy with a very strong core, he could do handstands with his head resting on a table and hold his whole body straight up and then move it from side to side, thats takes enormous natural strength for a heavyweight, can you see kilitchko doing it no i dont think so because the weight to power and leverage ratio would be all wrong, in that his big long body would not be able to generate the sort of power to hold his body up and move it from side to side. And that the reason the size in this instance wont make any difference. because his size will not allow him to generate the same centrifugal power as liston and when liston gets near which he will do then that power will show big time. And as some one else said liston was not a plodder he had good balance and threw good correct puncher with a ramrod jab.

Liston doing handstands on his head , is not a factor in who will win a fight. I am not doubting that Liston was very strong and hard hitting. Liston was slow and plodding compared to someone like Vladamir . I don't understand why you don't think Vladamir was not strong or hard hitting enough to trouble Liston , considering Vladamir knocks out 83 % of his opponents , who have alot better records and credentials than Listons opponents? Liston would have been among the smallest men Vladamir had ever fought, and you have said that you don't think Vladamir has a chance against Liston ? Do you genuinely believe that?

Maravilla33

Klitschko

badabing106 wrote: »

Liston doing handstands on his head , is not a factor in who will win a fight. I am not doubting that Liston was very strong and hard hitting. Liston was slow and plodding compared to someone like Vladamir . I don't understand why you don't think Vladamir was not strong or hard hitting enough to trouble Liston , considering Vladamir knocks out 83 % of his opponents , who have alot better records and credentials than Listons opponents? Liston would have been among the smallest men Vladamir had ever fought, and you have said that you don't think Vladamir has a chance against Liston ? Do you genuinely believe that?

I know you were addressing somebody else but I genuinely believe Wlad has no chance against Liston. Its a terrible match up for him. I think alot of people are under rating Liston based on the Clay fights. He was past his best and up against the best heavy there's ever been. Before that he was a bit of a machine.

Ali's hand and footspeed, bravery and durability were always going to be a nightmare for Liston. Wlad has none of these. Its jab jab jab, grab with an occasional straight right thrown in. These won't faze Sonny who would patiently and systematically break Wlad down. His reach is a major factor and for once Wlad won't be in a position where he can rely on his jab only to win a fight. Even the likes of Haye who has no jab and ran all night caught Wlad a couple of times. What makes you think that someone with one of the best jabs in history, scary power in 2 hands and who had no fear wouldn't?

walshb

Klitschko

badabing106 wrote: »

. Liston was slow and plodding compared to someone like Vladamir QUOTE]

Wlad was hardly a ballerina. Liston was every bit as stable and fluid on his feet as Wlad. Wlad will not win this by moving. He needs to engage, be active, and when that happens he will get tagged very clean and flush by a very good boxer/tactician/hitter. Liston had a good boxing brain. Knew how to attack, switch hit and throw combos. Add this to his power, chin, and Wlad's suspect chin, and I only see one result.

RiseToTheTop

Klitschko

badabing106 wrote: »

Liston doing handstands on his head , is not a factor in who will win a fight. I am not doubting that Liston was very strong and hard hitting. Liston was slow and plodding compared to someone like Vladamir . I don't understand why you don't think Vladamir was not strong or hard hitting enough to trouble Liston , considering Vladamir knocks out 83 % of his opponents , who have alot better records and credentials than Listons opponents? Liston would have been among the smallest men Vladamir had ever fought, and you have said that you don't think Vladamir has a chance against Liston ? Do you genuinely believe that?

Eh, no, Wladimir's oppoent don't have records and credentials "a lot better" than Liston's.

I also find the way that Wladimir gets KO's: jab jab jab, then a right hand for 9/10 rounds, until he eventually wares out his opponent and then takes him out. I find that approach won't work with Liston, Liston will be very dangerous early on, where Wladimir gets very very little KO's. Plus a fundemantal part of the fight, Wladimir won't be able to outjab his opoponent.

walshb

Klitschko

cowzerp wrote: »

No I don't, and Liston coming at Wlad aggressive would suit Wlad

On the top ten heavies I don't believe you have Wlad on the list, yet Sonny is rated 4 or 5?

Is it a case that Wlad in your view is simply a bad match for Sonny in a one off fight?

Who rates higher career wise as a HW?

cowzerp

Not sure

walshb wrote: »

On the top ten heavies I don't believe you have Wlad on the list, yet Sonny is rated 4 or 5?

Is it a case that Wlad in your view is simply a bad match for Sonny in a one off fight?

Who rates higher career wise as a HW?

Wlad is not in because his chin is questionable, if not he'd be right there with Vitali, I think Liston would be aggressive with Wlad and get knocked out.

Also top 10's can easily change 1 week to the next-sometimes it takes a chat about a boxer to actually evaluate them better, there records, opponents, etc

If you dug up other top 10's from me they would differ to be honest.

Plus no, 1 and number 10 in reality can't be that far apart-separating elite is not that simple.

walshb

Klitschko

cowzerp wrote: »

Wlad is not in because his chin is questionable, if not he'd be right there with Vitali, I think Liston would be aggressive with Wlad and get knocked out.

Also top 10's can easily change 1 week to the next-sometimes it takes a chat about a boxer to actually evaluate them better, there records, opponents, etc

If you dug up other top 10's from me they would differ to be honest.

Plus no, 1 and number 10 in reality can't be that far apart-separating elite is not that simple.

Oh, I know well opinions can change, just look at our friend, Joe Calzaghe!:)

Liston getting knocked out to me seems a real stretch. Wlad was not an aggressive machine with dynamite in his fists. He wore his foes down, and took them out. Power? Yes. But, very cautious and conservative in applying it.

Liston's beard was solid. He was solid, and if others can take Wlad's shots, like Haye and Sanders and Brewster, then Liston can. And, Liston will be firing back a whole lot more efficiently too.

Also, Wlad not making your top ten due to chin, is one major reason I see Wlad never beating Tyson, Liston or Foreman. These men are bad matches for Wlad.

I will say that of the three, Liston is Wlad's best opponent for a Wlad win. But, I would give him 1-2 from a ten fight series.

section4

Klitschko

badabing106 wrote: »

Liston doing handstands on his head , is not a factor in who will win a fight. I am not doubting that Liston was very strong and hard hitting. Liston was slow and plodding compared to someone like Vladamir . I don't understand why you don't think Vladamir was not strong or hard hitting enough to trouble Liston , considering Vladamir knocks out 83 % of his opponents , who have alot better records and credentials than Listons opponents? Liston would have been among the smallest men Vladamir had ever fought, and you have said that you don't think Vladamir has a chance against Liston ? Do you genuinely believe that?

Liston was slow and plodding ? slower than ali yes, but to say he was slow and plodding is incorrect, was he slower than George Foreman.

Why i dont think Wlad is strong enough, because I have watched him fighting all his career against very very ordinary guys and watched him keep well away and look very very fragile, thats why. I have also watched him get
stopped by

Lamon Brewster. what happend there, this guy is an obscurity in heavy weight history

Corrie Sanders. What happened there another obscurity

Ross Purrity an obscurity in the heavy weight division of the time never mind heavyweight history

These are not strong heavyweights, ordinary run of the mill heavyweights and Wlad was stopped bug time, he is as fragile as a china doll and you think he has a chance against a bull who can land punches

Vlad has never fought one opponent who is of any consequence in heavyweight history, if he has name him.

He has been beaten in his prime by ordinary guys.

Liston was never stopped in his prime.

There is no comparison

gene_tunney

Not sure

Wlad's jab makes pulp of Liston's face even worse than Ali did. The size, skill and power advantage is too much for Liston, who quits or gets knocked out in the mid-to-late rounds. One-sided affair.

walshb

Klitschko

section4 wrote: »

Liston was never stopped in his prime.

There is no comparison

Clay and Ali stopped him. Yes, maybe not his absolute best, but prime usually spans a few years. Liston was HW Champion in 1964. Anyway, Wlad won't do it to the 1960-1963 version of Liston.

cowzerp

Not sure

walshb wrote: »

Oh, I know well opinions can change, just look at our friend, Joe Calzaghe!:)

Liston getting knocked out to me seems a real stretch. Wlad was not an aggressive machine with dynamite in his fists. He wore his foes down, and took them out. Power? Yes. But, very cautious and conservative in applying it.

Liston's beard was solid. He was solid, and if others can take Wlad's shots, like Haye and Sanders and Brewster, then Liston can. And, Liston will be firing back a whole lot more efficiently too.

Also, Wlad not making your top ten due to chin, is one major reason I see Wlad never beating Tyson, Liston or Foreman. These men are bad matches for Wlad.

I will say that of the three, Liston is Wlad's best opponent for a Wlad win. But, I would give him 1-2 from a ten fight series.

Comparing a runner who barely got hit like Haye to a man who will come to fight like Liston is not a good analogy-this is the reason why Wlad will land and land hard, If Liston decides to have a cautious Boxing match and throw the odd bomb i'd give him a better chance but i think he will be eating heavy leather and lots of it, if he survives that then he may well do the job, i don't think he can.

Oh and the Calzaghe thing was you not rating him while watching him, and changing your mind years later! A top 10 is very different, mood can change your top 10, just watching an exciting clip of a boxer can change your thinking on it-regularly i'd look back a year later and wonder how i left out certain boxers, put others in-Been honest I would probably take Liston out now that i've looked at it a bit deeper.

walshb

Klitschko

cowzerp wrote: »

Comparing a runner who barely got hit like Haye to a man who will come to fight like Liston is not a good analogy-.

Not just Haye. I listed others. Haye did duck and dive, but took some solid shots too.

From my memory I have Liston down in my top ten for career, but in one to one in fights I have him higher.

Edit: Number 10 in career HW, number 4 in one to one fights.

Maravilla33

Klitschko

gene_tunney wrote: »

Wlad's jab makes pulp of Liston's face even worse than Ali did. The size, skill and power advantage is too much for Liston, who quits or gets knocked out in the mid-to-late rounds. One-sided affair.

Pretty hard to make pulp of anyone's face when your facing someone with a more powerful jab and a longer reach who could regularly outjab you. Wlad's so used to lording it over average heavys who don't have the physical tools or skill sets necessary to trouble him. Different story here.

All I can think of is Wlad crawling around on all 4s trying to get up after the many times he's been dropped in his career when I think of this fight. If someone as crude as Sam Peter can deck him several times I fear for him against Sonny Liston who wouldn't let him of the hook if he hurt him.

walshb

Klitschko

Ali's jab was like a bullet, and fluid, and and very consistent. Wlad's jab has not got that efficiency.

Maravilla33

Klitschko

cowzerp wrote: »

Comparing a runner who barely got hit like Haye to a man who will come to fight like Liston is not a good analogy-this is the reason why Wlad will land and land hard, If Liston decides to have a cautious Boxing match and throw the odd bomb i'd give him a better chance but i think he will be eating heavy leather and lots of it, if he survives that then he may well do the job, i don't think he can.

Since when does Wlad throw that much leather? He's cautious enough at the best of times. Put him in with Liston and he'll barely throw a right hand. I may be coming across a bit anti Wlad in this thread which I assure I'm not. Just this is one fantasy match up I see as being easy to call.

section4

Klitschko

walshb wrote: »

Clay and Ali stopped him. Yes, maybe not his absolute best, but prime usually spans a few years. Liston was HW Champion in 1964. Anyway, Wlad won't do it to the 1960-1963 version of Liston.

i think liston was past his prime then he had already beaten every one he faced up till then and was never even close to being stopped, he fought nearly a whole fight with his jaw broken against Marty Marshall.
Wlad has been badly beaten in his prime against very ordinary guys.There is a big contrast there

cowzerp

Not sure

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Since when does Wlad throw that much leather? He's cautious enough at the best of times. Put him in with Liston and he'll barely throw a right hand. I may be coming across a bit anti Wlad in this thread which I assure I'm not. Just this is one fantasy match up I see as being easy to call.

I've stated this many many times-If you come looking for Wlad he will throw leather, if you run he will be patient-Liston will come looking and be met with power and technique and a master of evasion too.

I'd put my money on Wlad but like most fights with top fighters they could go either way-Liston to me is made for Wlad, and Liston never met a big rangy fighter like Wlad so people saying Wlad never met someone like Liston, it works both ways.

Maravilla33

Klitschko

If you come looking for Wlad now he'll back pedal even more. Ever since he was KO'd by 3 average fighters and put on his ass several times by Peter he's went into his shell. You go looking for someone like Evander Holyfield and he will throw leather. You go looking for Wlad and he'll run all day long..

section4

Klitschko

cowzerp wrote: »

Wlad is not in because his chin is questionable, if not he'd be right there with Vitali, I think Liston would be aggressive with Wlad and get knocked out.

Also top 10's can easily change 1 week to the next-sometimes it takes a chat about a boxer to actually evaluate them better, there records, opponents, etc

If you dug up other top 10's from me they would differ to be honest.

Plus no, 1 and number 10 in reality can't be that far apart-separating elite is not that simple.

You think Wlad could knock Sonny Liston out when Cleveland Williams who is rated in the top 50 punchers of all time by ring magazine could not knock him out after hitting him cleanly. Cleveland Williams was also 6ft 3 ins tall .

And you think Sonny LIston who is rated No 15 best puncher of all time by Ring would not knock out a guy who has one one of the worst chins of any heavyweight champion.

You think a guy who has been knocked out by Corrie Sanders, Lamon Brewster and ROSS PURITY would not be knocked out by one of the hardest punching heavyweights of all time.

Could you explain to me what happened when these 3 guys knocked him out, because the way your talking this should not have happened once never mind three times.

Liston is in a different league, Wlad is great if you are talk about the last ten years, thats it.

cowzerp

Not sure

Maravilla33 wrote: »

If you come looking for Wlad now he'll back pedal even more. Ever since he was KO'd by 3 average fighters and put on his ass several times by Peter he's went into his shell. You go looking for someone like Evander Holyfield and he will throw leather. You go looking for Wlad and he'll run all day long..

I'm not saying he'll go toe to toe, you come into range you're getting hit-Liston will come into range and get hit, will he hit Wlad clean, he may but i don't think so.

gene_tunney

Not sure

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Pretty hard to make pulp of anyone's face when your facing someone with a more powerful jab and a longer reach who could regularly outjab you. Wlad's so used to lording it over average heavys who don't have the physical tools or skill sets necessary to trouble him. Different story here.

All I can think of is Wlad crawling around on all 4s trying to get up after the many times he's been dropped in his career when I think of this fight. If someone as crude as Sam Peter can deck him several times I fear for him against Sonny Liston who wouldn't let him of the hook if he hurt him.

It's clear from your posts that you know nothing about boxing so I won't be wasting my time debating with you. Better luck next time.