Bodybuilding and Form

Duffman'05

Much emphasis is always put on strict and correct form when lifting, ie not compensating with muscles that shouldn't participate in the exercise and controlling the negatives.

So why do all the videos of professional bodybuilders, ie the most successful at putting on size, have such terrible form? Search youtube for videos of Coleman or Cutler and they are throwing their backs into bicep curls and throwing shoulder presses up with spring from their legs. Next to no controlling the negatives either from what I can see.

MungBean

I suppose you dont win Mr Olympia that many times without knowing what your doing down to the last little detail. Perhaps their bad form is intentional to achieve whatever they are trying to achieve ?

Mellor

There is a huge difference between somebody in the gym swinging a DB up with his legs instead of just steping down a weight all the time.

And a pro level BB who is using some assistance on the eccentric portion for some sets.

ridonkulous

On one of Cutlers DVDs he actually discusses this element of his training and calls it "sloppy training". It's been a while since I watched it but he effectively says that beyond a certain level the attention to detail on the exercises can be disregarded with little or no decrease in effectiveness of the exercise. Something along those lines anyway.

xgtdec

i know im guilty of back throwing for curls.......always at the end of the last set...possibly last 2-3 reps....i'd rather throw the back a tiny bit then quit it.:p

I remember asking a lifter the exact same thing about the spring for a shoulder press and he told me this.....he said do 5 reps with no spring and i did, he then said do 5 reps with a little spring and i did, he then said now hold the bar in the starting position and just spring on your legs, and i did...and naturally enough the bar went nowhere..it just bounced with me. So the little spring was not adding a whole lot...but it was getting me the last 3 reps.

i think good form is always a must!!..but if a little spring or back throwing gets those last reps out of you then that ok..........now i said "little" spring....we dont need the lifting form police in here telling me i couldnt be more wrong:D

Tigger

Steroids>form

Duffman'05

MungBean wrote: »

I suppose you dont win Mr Olympia that many times without knowing what your doing down to the last little detail. Perhaps their bad form is intentional to achieve whatever they are trying to achieve ?

That's exactly what I'm getting at. I'm just wondering how the bad form helps them to achieve it more effectively than proper form.

jive

It sounds stupid but I think to use bad form you have to know what you are doing. Let me explain.

If you're new to the gym and weight lifting then you should generally do everything properly with strict form so you get used to the movements. A lot of people you see doing stupid **** just so they can lift more weight but only end up doing part of the movement such as the infamous quarter squat or quarter bench.

If you've been training for a few years you generally know what works for you and what doesn't. You know how to work the muscles you want to work. If you're doing bicep curls and you swing a bit to get a few more reps out of it then so what? You're still using your biceps to get the weight up, your biceps are still working and you know what your doing so the risk of injury is still extremely low. Someone without experience swinging weight around are liable to do any kind of damage because they're not used to the movement and generally do it just to boost their ego.

IMO, you should always have good form but it doesn't necessarily have to be absolutely perfect form that you see a trainer do in a youtube video with 2lb weights. It's just not realistic. If you try to maintain that perfect form then you won't progress as well because heavier weights are harder to control. It's hard to put into words but generally whatever accessories are working will make it tougher for you to do everything perfectly e.g. you see big lads being handed weights for shoulder presses, bar controlled by spotter on the start of bench - just examples of how heavier weights make **** harder on your body in general.

TL;DR
Lift with good technique that's not retarded, your form doesn't have to be absolutely perfect because then you may be afraid to increase the weights you lift. Work the muscles you want to work while not increasing the risk of injury about sums it up. There's a middle ground (more like an 80/20 ground i guess) between weight and technique.

Hanley

jive wrote: »

It sounds stupid but I think to use bad form you have to know what you are doing. Let me explain.

If you're new to the gym and weight lifting then you should generally do everything properly with strict form so you get used to the movements. A lot of people you see doing stupid **** just so they can lift more weight but only end up doing part of the movement such as the infamous quarter squat or quarter bench.

If you've been training for a few years you generally know what works for you and what doesn't. You know how to work the muscles you want to work. If you're doing bicep curls and you swing a bit to get a few more reps out of it then so what? You're still using your biceps to get the weight up, your biceps are still working and you know what your doing so the risk of injury is still extremely low. Someone without experience swinging weight around are liable to do any kind of damage because they're not used to the movement and generally do it just to boost their ego.

IMO, you should always have good form but it doesn't necessarily have to be absolutely perfect form that you see a trainer do in a youtube video with 2lb weights. It's just not realistic. If you try to maintain that perfect form then you won't progress as well because heavier weights are harder to control. It's hard to put into words but generally whatever accessories are working will make it tougher for you to do everything perfectly e.g. you see big lads being handed weights for shoulder presses, bar controlled by spotter on the start of bench - just examples of how heavier weights make **** harder on your body in general.

TL;DR
Lift with good technique that's not retarded, your form doesn't have to be absolutely perfect because then you may be afraid to increase the weights you lift. Work the muscles you want to work while not increasing the risk of injury about sums it up. There's a middle ground (more like an 80/20 ground i guess) between weight and technique.

Pretty much /thread.

You need to know enough to know how to "cheat". it's not that it's bad form, it's just not picture perfect. BUT the correct muscles are being targeted, unlike when newbies cheat to use more weight by taking the emphasis off the targeted muscle and onto something stronger.

Totally different scenarios.

SteelyDanJalapeno

jive wrote: »

It sounds stupid but I think to use bad form you have to know what you are doing. Let me explain.

If you're new to the gym and weight lifting then you should generally do everything properly with strict form so you get used to the movements. A lot of people you see doing stupid **** just so they can lift more weight but only end up doing part of the movement such as the infamous quarter squat or quarter bench.

If you've been training for a few years you generally know what works for you and what doesn't. You know how to work the muscles you want to work. If you're doing bicep curls and you swing a bit to get a few more reps out of it then so what? You're still using your biceps to get the weight up, your biceps are still working and you know what your doing so the risk of injury is still extremely low. Someone without experience swinging weight around are liable to do any kind of damage because they're not used to the movement and generally do it just to boost their ego.

IMO, you should always have good form but it doesn't necessarily have to be absolutely perfect form that you see a trainer do in a youtube video with 2lb weights. It's just not realistic. If you try to maintain that perfect form then you won't progress as well because heavier weights are harder to control. It's hard to put into words but generally whatever accessories are working will make it tougher for you to do everything perfectly e.g. you see big lads being handed weights for shoulder presses, bar controlled by spotter on the start of bench - just examples of how heavier weights make **** harder on your body in general.

TL;DR
Lift with good technique that's not retarded, your form doesn't have to be absolutely perfect because then you may be afraid to increase the weights you lift. Work the muscles you want to work while not increasing the risk of injury about sums it up. There's a middle ground (more like an 80/20 ground i guess) between weight and technique.

Your not working the muscle solely though, your using a combination of momentum and your back, I just don't see the point, if ya cant do it properly why not move down a weight before you injure yourself or someone else.

*not directed at you, just the comment

Hanley

TiltedBrain wrote: »

Your not working the muscle solely though, your using a combination of momentum and your back, I just don't see the point, if ya cant do it properly why not move down a weight before you injure yourself or someone else.

*not directed at you, just the comment

Because you're not necessarily doing something dangerous. A slight sway is fine. and with biceps, if you end up cheating a bit on the concentric, you probably end up with a greater eccentric load than you would have otherwise if you just did them strict. Which is good for growth...

SteelyDanJalapeno

Hanley wrote: »

Because you're not necessarily doing something dangerous. A slight sway is fine. and with biceps, if you end up cheating a bit on the concentric, you probably end up with a greater eccentric load than you would have otherwise if you just did them strict. Which is good for growth...

ok, but surely not as good as equal concentric and eccentric movements? I can understand that cheating a bit could lead to good form eventually on the weight, but it just seems a bit counter-intuitive as to what I have been practicing.

bit of a novice thou, so excuse me if that doesn't make sense

jive

TiltedBrain wrote: »

Your not working the muscle solely though, your using a combination of momentum and your back, I just don't see the point, if ya cant do it properly why not move down a weight before you injure yourself or someone else.

*not directed at you, just the comment

I just meant to get a few more reps out I didn't mean for the entire set. I suppose you could do a drop set (in theory, in practice I don't think it's as effective) but generally when you start using some momentum you concentrate more on the negative than actually lifting the weight up (within reason).

I agree poor form is retarded. That's why I suggest people gain experience doing things perfectly before trying to jazz things up. 'Cheating' has it's place in bodybuilding, IMO, you just have to know what you're doing to begin with. It's fairly easy to see what is poor form and what is perfect form. Like Hanley said, most people will sacrifice form and a stronger muscle(s) will just take the brunt of the weight. If you have trained enough you probably know enough to know how to 'cheat' while still targeting the muscle you want... if that makes any sense.

*don't worry I'm not that sensitive :P

edit: **** my long winded response... too slow. the response still stays

Hanley

TiltedBrain wrote: »

ok, but surely not as good as equal concentric and eccentric movements? I can understand that cheating a bit could lead to good form eventually on the weight, but it just seems a bit counter-intuitive as to what I have been practicing.

bit of a novice thou, so excuse me if that doesn't make sense

You're stronger eccentrically therefore you need a greater load to achieve the same level of fatigue as concentrically (or at least the same perceived level because the actual effect would be greater). That is to say, a 12rm eccentric and 12rm concentric wouldn't have the same loading. The eccentric would be higher.

Hanley

jive wrote: »

If you have trained enough you probably know enough to know how to 'cheat' while still targeting the muscle you want...

Winner winner chicken dinner.

brownej

Are kipping pull ups considered bad form or is it a different exercise entirely from a proper pull up?
I know when doing pullups there's always the temptation to lift your knees a little towards the end of a set but I think that falls in to the knowing what you are doing to get those last couple of reps out, but the mad wild swinging you see some people doing looks like an injury waiting to happen.

Hanley

brownej wrote: »

Are kipping pull ups considered bad form or is it a different exercise entirely from a proper pull up?
I know when doing pullups there's always the temptation to lift your knees a little towards the end of a set but I think that falls in to the knowing what you are doing to get those last couple of reps out, but the mad wild swinging you see some people doing looks like an injury waiting to happen.

Entirely different exercises that shouldnt even be considered related.

It's like comparing a hang power clean to a reverse curl because the bar starts and ends in relatively the same position.