Do we need social welfare and tax reforms to incentivise work over unemployment?

Delancey

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

the key to making minimum wage jobs more appealing is to lower fuel taxes... if energy costs, commuting costs, and haulage costs came down then we could justify another dole cut, and make minimum wage jobs alot more appealing.

+ 1 . Fuel / energy costs are a huge issue for those on fixed or limited incomes and there really is not the scope for a further cut to benefits with these costs so high.

There seem to be those that think a massive cut in rates will see huge numbers going back to work - this simply is not going to happen , a cut in the dole will not see 400,000 people back to work because the jobs simply aren't there.

Delancey

Delancey wrote: »

Fuel / energy costs are a huge issue for those on fixed or limited incomes...

OK, two points I'd like to address there. Firstly the fuel. Energy costs are a huge issue for all, full stop. It is completely ridiculous that our government takes 57cents of every euro spent on fuel in this country, in the current regime of rocketing oil prices. It's unjust and unjustifiable and it will have to come to a head sooner or later, because if it keeps up it will soon be nigh on impossible to drive a car for all but the most essential of journeys, and the other expenses of running a car like road tax, maintenance, NCT, insurance, etc will end up being unjustifiable for the amount of use you get from the vehicle, but on the other hand, in 90% of the country, the public transport alternatives to owning a car, just are not there.

What's going to happen when we cant afford to run cars, and have no other effective, reliable means of getting to places on time?

Delancey wrote: »

Fuel / energy costs are a huge issue for those on fixed or limited incomes and there really is not the scope for a further cut to benefits with these costs so high

Secondly, and this is the more contentions point of the two, why is it expected or normal that a social welfare recipient should be able to afford to run a car? It's not expected in many other countries, and i think this is an example of the kind of disincentives i suspect are at the heart of the Irish welfare system.

It may be a sore, contentious, even heartless point of view, depending on your perspective (and i do have genuine sympathy for people trapped on welfare in a time when there is a serious lack of jobs) but i think that if you lose your job and have to draw the dole, then along with that there should be the assumption of an automatic loss of very many of the privileges that earning a wage brings, and when there is not, the system should acknowledge that it is broken and investigate why there is not. By all means, a welfare recipient should be afforded enough to keep food on the table, bills paid, and a roof over their head. They have paid their PRSI stamps, and the state has an obligation to sustain the basics of life for them while they are down on their luck, but i think that's where it should stop.

Running a car, going on holiday, nights out, sky movies, etc, I think all of that should be outside the reach of a welfare recipient. Those are the trappings of the kind of wealth that employment should bring, not welfare. Only when there is a significant gap between the kind of life you can afford on the maximum level of welfare versus the lowest level of earnings will people have a real incentive to find a job, ANY job, and only then will we do away with the "sure it wouldn't be worth your while to work" mentality that still exists in some sections of society.

Nothingbetter2d

Delancey wrote: »

+ 1 . Fuel / energy costs are a huge issue for those on fixed or limited incomes and there really is not the scope for a further cut to benefits with these costs so high.

There seem to be those that think a massive cut in rates will see huge numbers going back to work - this simply is not going to happen , a cut in the dole will not see 400,000 people back to work because the jobs simply aren't there.

the secondary effect from a fuel tax cut would be lower operating costs for businesses and therefore they would have more money to hire new staff.

so vacancies albeit mostly minimum wage jobs would indeed begin to appear.

for those on the dole they would be told take a cut in dole or take one of these new jobs.

ardmacha

Now I actually wish all foreigner students would leave ireland to see if it would be so good for the economy... People dont seem to realize how much money they actually spend before they even come here...
Foreigner doesnt equal starving or charity case..

Foreign students are a useful source of services exports for Ireland and helpful to the viability of underfunded Irish third level institutions. But there is a proportion of chancers among these.

the secondary effect from a fuel tax cut would be lower operating costs for businesses and therefore they would have more money to hire new staff

.

Fuel is is similar, or slightly cheaper, in Ireland when compared to other European countries, it does not have a material effect on competitiveness, employment etc.

Nothingbetter2d

ardmacha wrote: »

Fuel is is similar, or slightly cheaper, in Ireland when compared to other European countries, it does not have a material effect on competitiveness, employment etc.

so why then are haulage companies forced to refuel on the continent rather than here?

fuel costs here are painfully high and 57% of that is tax. as most of our electricty stations are fuel powered this also pumps up the cost of electricity.

we lost our manufacturing industry because of high operating costs and wages when compared to other european countires.

by reducing operations costs here and by lowering the cost of living for consumers a minimum wage job would be much more attactrive and therefore the manufacturing industry would be able to recover somewhat.

Geuze

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/excise_duties/energy_products/rates/index_en.htm

See above for excise duties on energy products across the EU.


Here is the associated pdf file:

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/taxation/excise_duties/energy_products/rates/excise_duties-part_ii_energy_products_en.pdf

Geuze

Petrol excise duty, per litre, 1st Jan 2012

NL = 73c (they have low unemployment)

IT = 70c

EL = 67c

DE = 65c (with low youth un, and overall un under 8%)

FR = 61- 64c

BE = 63c

Ireland = 58.77c

We are by no means the highest when it comes to fuel taxes.

Geuze

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

so why then are haulage companies forced to refuel on the continent rather than here?

fuel costs here are painfully high and 57% of that is tax. as most of our electricty stations are fuel powered this also pumps up the cost of electricity.

Diesel may be cheaper in some countries on the continent, yes, that's true.

That is because they levy lower excise rates on diesel than petrol. We do the same, but the gap isn't as much as on the continent.

NB: heavy fuel oil going into power stations has no or very low excise duty, so no effect on elec prices.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

We are by no means the highest when it comes to fuel taxes.

That isn't comparing Apples with apples. It's a selective representation of the facts. I'd like to see the breakdown of all required spending necessary to buy and run a car in Ireland versus in other countries in Europe as a percentage of the average industrial wage in each country.

I'm not sure if those figures are easily available, but i would hazard a guess that when you factor in VRT, VAT, Motor Tax, NCT costs, Insurance costs, Government Insurance Levies, and servicing and maintenance costs, we spend considerably more of our disposable incomes on buying and running our cars, largely due to the state's tax regime.

Hitting the motorist has become a staple of Irish budget policy, and i doubt we would compare favourably with Europe in that regard.

Geuze

What you are looking for isn't published.

But our VAT rates are not out of line with other countries.

Regarding VRT, yes, only a few other countries have this, so, yes, new cars are cheaper abroad.

Regarding the annual motor tax, I don't know enough. However, the post-2008 regime in Irl means low annual motor taxes for many people.

Geuze

I sense that I agree with you in that commuting / fuel costs can eat into lower wages a lot in Irl.

I would argue that this is due to longer distance commuting, which in turn is linked to dispersed populations.

Also linked to a lack of public transport.

My solution would not be lower fuel taxes.

My solution would be better organised public transport, and fewer one-off rural houses.

Nothingbetter2d

Geuze wrote: »

My solution would be better organised public transport, and fewer one-off rural houses.

most people that commute to work (mostly dublin or greater dublin area) dont come from rural one off housing but rather commuter towns such as port laoise, carlow, navan, kildare, drogheda, maynooth, wicklow etc.

Nothingbetter2d

ireland's gov charges the following on petrol per litre

average wholesale price of petrol is 142.52c per litre

excise duty taken on that is 60.77c per litre
vat taken = 32.78c per litre
co2 tax taken = 4.587c per litre

total gov take per litre = 98.137c per litre


whats not also considered is the tax generated from the income tax paid from wholesalers / retailers after they have taken their profit.

golden lane

why are families that work.....not guarenteed the same standard of living, as those that don't...????????????????????????