75% of patients with cardiovascular event fall within recommended cholesterol levels…

Hanley

….so something else must be the cause, right? WRONG!!!! Lets lower the levels so the data fits.

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/majority-of-hospitalized-heart-75668.aspx

Anyone seen the full text of the study? References to VLDL particles? C-Reactive protein? etc etc

Thoughts?

meijin

Hanley wrote: »

….so something else must be the cause, right? WRONG!!!! Lets lower the levels so the data fits.

and give statins to anybody above it:rolleyes:

Mack_1111

Where was the full text published?

El_Dangeroso

It's a really old study, I brought it up with a cardiologist once, he said that yes, 75% of people would be in the normal range, but if you plotted the cholesterol bell curve of people who have never had a heart attack then maybe 95% of those people would have normal cholesterol levels, so the difference between the two groups would signify an elevated risk with higher chol. I could see where he was coming from, as it's useful to study these things when your looking at large groups of people.

Mistakes happen when you go back from the general to the specific without additional nuance. I.e. using population level data to make recommendations for one person's situation.

I think cholesterol when it's very high is telling you something is up. It's not something to be totally ignored. But people who are slightly elevated are not getting any diagnostic information.

I'm involved in a project at the moment to look at the most commonly prescribed drugs at GP level in Ireland. Crestor, lipitor, simvastatin are topping the list by a country mile, it makes me sad that such a blunt approach to heart care is being taken, especially when we know that the primary prevention capabilities of statins are not established.

El_Dangeroso

Here's the full-text if anyone wants it:

http://www.ahjonline.com/article/S0002-8703(08)00717-5/abstract

I had a good giggle at the abstract, spin city!

pejay

i have another week to get cholestral down or doc going to start medication which i am not keen on

adamski8

pejay wrote: »

i have another week to get cholestral down or doc going to start medication which i am not keen on

you dont have to take it!!

pejay

adamski8 wrote: »

you dont have to take it!!

I know that i was just saying thats all as i have tried to do it by a strict diet and still cannot shift it, just thought maybe could i try something else before i went on the meds as i heard once your on them you have to stay on them.

EileenG

I think he meant you don't have to take the meds. The doctor can not force you. And he certainly cannot give you a timetable. In the end, you are the person who has to take the drugs and deal with the consequences. It's up to you to be certain you have done the homework and are making the right choice for you.

meijin

pejay wrote: »

I know that i was just saying thats all as i have tried to do it by a strict diet and still cannot shift it, just thought maybe could i try something else before i went on the meds as i heard once your on them you have to stay on them.

what do you mean by this strict diet? just curious... and what are your results?

from what I've read, some people claim that high cholesterol might be a response to an inflammation, so a symptom of something going wrong - then why would anybody want to treat a symptom, rather than the actual cause of the problem?

pejay

meijin wrote: »

what do you mean by this strict diet? just curious... and what are your results?

from what I've read, some people claim that high cholesterol might be a response to an inflammation, so a symptom of something going wrong - then why would anybody want to treat a symptom, rather than the actual cause of the problem?

A strict diet of low in saturated fat my results were 10.3 for cholestral levels all other bloods were fine,

Didn't even know what cholestral was until i was called in to docs about it, went onto a low fat diet and still cannot get the cholestral down so they said it may be hereditary but my mother and father's are fine.

meijin

pejay wrote: »

A strict diet of low in saturated fat my results were 10.3 for cholestral levels all other bloods were fine,

beside this low saturated fat diet, what else do you eat and drink, do you smoke?

pejay

EileenG wrote: »

I think he meant you don't have to take the meds. The doctor can not force you. And he certainly cannot give you a timetable. In the end, you are the person who has to take the drugs and deal with the consequences. It's up to you to be certain you have done the homework and are making the right choice for you.

Thanks for that Eileen.

I am just not up to speed with all this cholestral as different write ups and opinions all over the place,
Side effects of the medications that they can put you on,it's just hard to know.

pejay

meijin wrote: »

beside this low saturated fat diet, what else do you eat and drink, do you smoke?

I do smoke but i do not drink my blood pressure is fine.

meijin

pejay wrote: »

I do smoke but i do not drink my blood pressure is fine.

here is an idea - quit smoking and see if that helps
and you surely have to drink something though? not meaning only alcohol...
and what do you eat?

see also
http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20101115/quit-smoking-raise-good-cholesterol
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20100420/high-sugar-diet-linked-lower-good-cholesterol

pejay

meijin wrote: »

here is an idea - quit smoking and see if that helps
and you surely have to drink something though? not meaning only alcohol...
and what do you eat?

see also
http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20101115/quit-smoking-raise-good-cholesterol
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20100420/high-sugar-diet-linked-lower-good-cholesterol

Sorry i misunderstood you

I drink tea with fat free milk
I eat homemade soups fat free yoghurts
Chicken
salmon
tuna
wholemeal bread
Porridge
all vegetables
i have been on this diet now for about 3 weeks my doc giving me till end of April to see if cholestral has shifted from 10.3 and then if not recommends crestor.

Ant11

pejay wrote: »

i have another week to get cholestral down or doc going to start medication which i am not keen on

Hey Pejay can you let me know what the doc says to you next week. PM or post here which ever you like. I've been told I might have to go onto tablets too so it would be good to know what they say to you.

I've high cholesterol, high blood pressure and high something else in the blood can't remember the name of it though. I'm waiting to see a specialist as the my GP doesn't know why I have it

pejay

Ant11 wrote: »

Hey Pejay can you let me know what the doc says to you next week. PM or post here which ever you like. I've been told I might have to go onto tablets too so it would be good to know what they say to you.

I've high cholesterol, high blood pressure and high something else in the blood can't remember the name of it though. I'm waiting to see a specialist as the my GP doesn't know why I have it

Did you find out what your cholestral was the total cholestral and level of bad cholestral.Was the other thing high triglicides (excuse the spelling)

How old are you if you dont mind me asking. Are you eating a low fat diet also?

Ant11

pejay wrote: »

Did you find out what your cholestral was the total cholestral and level of bad cholestral.Was the other thing high triglicides (excuse the spelling)

How old are you if you dont mind me asking. Are you eating a low fat diet also?

I was told my cholesterol was 7.7. Yeah that triglicides sounds right. I'm not on any diet. I'm 28, I get regular exercise so I'm in shape, I drink a lot of water, never smoked and I would consider what I eat to be proper meals, as in im not munching on take aways every night or eating frozen processed foods. The only negative things I can think of are that I drink but its probably only once a week so I don't see how that could case it and there is a family history of high cholesterol.

pejay

Ant11 wrote: »

I was told my cholesterol was 7.7. Yeah that triglicides sounds right. I'm not on any diet. I'm 28, I get regular exercise so I'm in shape, I drink a lot of water, never smoked and I would consider what I eat to be proper meals, as in im not munching on take aways every night or eating frozen processed foods. The only negative things I can think of are that I drink but its probably only once a week so I don't see how that could case it and there is a family history of high cholesterol.

Thats what it is a family history the same as me because i was told to stay away from saturated fat which i did and it still went up, my triglicides were also up which can result from too much sugars so now i just take sweetener or brown sugar in my tea and use honey on cereal.

I smoke but do not drink, 7.7 i would rather that instead of 10.3 i am only 34, doctor said not to worry about it now as its in the later life it could affect me however it would need controlling and monitoring, the fact that i only have 1 risk factor to heart disease was some reassurance as i don't have diabetes,
IMO i would see if you can get it down yourself first by seeing a dietician the fact you have a family history of it does not help and diet alone would not be enough as your liver obviously cannot break down the cholestral.

I will keep you posted and you the same.

Ant11

pejay wrote: »

Thats what it is a family history the same as me because i was told to stay away from saturated fat which i did and it still went up, my triglicides were also up which can result from too much sugars so now i just take sweetener or brown sugar in my tea and use honey on cereal.

I smoke but do not drink, 7.7 i would rather that instead of 10.3 i am only 34, doctor said not to worry about it now as its in the later life it could affect me however it would need controlling and monitoring, the fact that i only have 1 risk factor to heart disease was some reassurance as i don't have diabetes,
IMO i would see if you can get it down yourself first by seeing a dietician the fact you have a family history of it does not help and diet alone would not be enough as your liver obviously cannot break down the cholestral.

I will keep you posted and you the same.

I don't have sugar with anything and I rarely even have a fizzy drink coz I get blocked gas in my stomach so i stick to water. I know about saturated fats so I would stay away from high saturated foods but I agree I don't think diet alone will improve my cholesterol since I already eat what I should be eating. I'm due to see my own GP again in 3 weeks to see if my blood pressure has come down so I'll ask her again about seeing the specialist. I already told her I would rather get it down myself if possible without medication but will have to wait and see.

Hanley

FML. This thread got ironic.

Frogdog

What I'm reading in response to the OP's first post is people saying they're on low-fat diets (particularly low in saturated fat) and despite everything else being good, nearly even perfect, their cholesterol levels aren't changing....???

Maybe ye people posting responses might realise that the doctor has as much a clue about nutrition as the man in the moon. Maybe ye might realise a diet low in fat, especially saturated fat, just might not be healthy. No........surely not! :rolleyes:

Jesus wept.

meijin

http://www.naturalnews.com/035514_cholesterol_myths_heart_doctor.html

summary

The inconvenient truth is that statin drugs are not needed to lower inflammation any more than they are needed to lower cholesterol. Natural items such as diet, lifestyle and natural foods and herbs such as turmeric, ginger and omega-3s can effectively lower inflammation far more safely than statin drugs.

According to Dr. Lundell and other experts, the simple solution to quieting inflammation and preventing heart disease is to return to foods closer to their natural state, include colorful vegetables and fruits and some healthy fats in our diets, build muscle, eat more protein and cut down or eliminate foods with inflammation-causing omega-6 fats like corn and soybean oil.

amacachi

You really shouldn't use that site to argue anything. Unless you're being ironic.

Squiggle

What is the best marker for heart disease ? Plenty of blood tests for risk factors for heart disease covered in this article, for example, but is there any single test that beats all others in terms of assessing one's risk proflie ?

El_Dangeroso

Hmm, probably Lp(a), but it's not been extensively studied and there's no cheap test.

El_Dangeroso

Oh I should also say total chol:HDL ratio. That's about the best predictor you'll get from a standard lipid panel.

Good debate in JAMA on statins in primary prevention:

http://www.theheart.org/article/1383271.do

Standout quote for me:

For Redberg and Katz, however, the data simply do not support the use of statins in the 55-year male patient with normal blood pressure and no family history of disease but with elevated cholesterol levels. They point to a recent meta-analysis in healthy but high-risk men and women showing no reduction in mortality with statin therapy, as well as a recent Cochrane review showing similar results. Moreover, Redberg and Katz highlight the adverse effects associated with statins, including cognitive defects and diabetes.

"For every 100 patients with elevated cholesterol levels who take statins for five years, a myocardial infarction will be prevented in one or two patients," they write. "Preventing a heart attack is a meaningful outcome. However, by taking statins, one or more patients will develop diabetes and 20% or more will experience disabling symptoms, including muscle weakness, fatigue, and memory loss."

Iwannahurl

Cholesterol is important, and Statins clearly play a big role in treatment/prevention. However, there are eight other major risk factors that are potentially modifiable, and which together account for the vast majority of cases of Myocardial Infarction worldwide.

Abnormal lipids URL="http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(08)61076-4/abstract"]ApoB/ApoA1 ratio[/URL, smoking, hypertension, diabetes, abdominal obesity, psychosocial factors, consumption of fruits, vegetables, and alcohol, and regular physical activity account for most of the risk of myocardial infarction worldwide in both sexes and at all ages in all regions.

Collectively, the nine major risk factors account for 90% of the Population Attributable Risk in men and 94% in women. Source: INTERHEART study, Lancet 2004.

theg81der

Iwannahurl wrote: »

consumption of fruits, vegetables, and alcohol,

Is it consuming fruit and veg good, alcohol bad? or consuming alcohol good? I don`t drink and I`ve heard people say alcohol is good in moderation.

Iwannahurl

theg81der wrote: »

Is it consuming fruit and veg good, alcohol bad? or consuming alcohol good? I don`t drink and I`ve heard people say alcohol is good in moderation.

Consuming fruit & veg good, consuming alcohol bad.

It used to be said that there was a J-shaped curve in relation to consumption of alcohol.

In other words, a moderate level of alcohol consumption was associated with alleged health benefits, with disease risk rising again beyond a certain threshold.

I haven't looked at this theory in a while, but IIRC it has been shown not to stand up well to closer scrutiny. Something to do with wine versus other alchol beverages perhaps. I'm open to correction on this point.





EDIT: The J-shaped curve is a whole subject in itself. Here's a sample: http://www.bu.edu/alcohol-forum/reviews/critique-017/