Joseph O Brien hype!!

gcy1980

Just commenting on the hype that was surrounding Joseph O Brien. I just don't get it. I have seen a couple of comments about how he rode certain horses at Meydan. The ride he gave Await the Dawn was crazy. I don't think John Magnier will put up with him on some of the best horses in the world for too long. To think Johnny Murtagh left the yard because he envisioned less chances because of the upcoming Joseph is unreal. Go all out for Ryan Moore now or someone like William Buick! I could never understand the hype around Joseph and still can't see it. I'm not saying that Ryan Moore would have won on any of Joseph's rides tonight but what he done on Await the Dawn was suicide!!

Nulty

gcy1980 wrote: »

Just commenting on the hype that was surrounding Joseph O Brien. I just don't get it. I have seen a couple of comments about how he rode certain horses at Meydan. The ride he gave Await the Dawn was crazy. I don't think John Magnier will put up with him on some of the best horses in the world for too long. To think Johnny Murtagh left the yard because he envisioned less chances because of the upcoming Joseph is unreal. Go all out for Ryan Moore now or someone like William Buick! I could never understand the hype around Joseph and still can't see it. I'm not saying that Ryan Moore would have won on any of Joseph's rides tonight but what he done on Await the Dawn was suicide!!

What are you talking about!? Your talking nonsense. Do you really think he decided to go out and do something that wasn't planned? Do you think he was given instructions that differed to what he executed? Do you think the horse would have fared any better under any other sort of ride?

Man, people are lining up to have a go at Joseph O'Brien and not one of them has a sound argument.

RichieLawlor

Nulty wrote: »

What are you talking about!? Your talking nonsense. Do you really think he decided to go out and do something that wasn't planned? Do you think he was given instructions that differed to what he executed? Do you think the horse would have fared any better under any other sort of ride?

Man, people are lining up to have a go at Joseph O'Brien and not one of them has a sound argument.

Perhaps he was told to make the running on ATD, but that little clock in his head is running a bit fast imo

d-gal

He is a fantastic jockey and he has proved that over the last 2 years with an abundance of winners. He usually has a great judge of pace, especially from the front. He gave so u think a perfect ride and got the rail in front tho a lot of jockeys would have been bustled out at times. That particular horse just wasn't good enough and either was Await.
He is a fantastic prospect and himself and Barzalona are up there with the best

RichieLawlor

d-gal wrote: »

He is a fantastic jockey and he has proved that over the last 2 years with an abundance of winners. He usually has a great judge of pace, especially from the front. He gave so u think a perfect ride and got the rail in front tho a lot of jockeys would have been bustled out at times. That particular horse just wasn't good enough and either was Await.
He is a fantastic prospect and himself and Barzalona are up there with the best

He doesn't compare to Barzalona, who is a proper jockey. An abundance of winners you say, my mother could win on those coolmore horses.

No perhaps I'm being unfair to the kid, but I don't think so, and if he is Ballydoyle number one at the end of this season I'll be very very surprised

longshotvalue

He was definatly always going to make it on Await the Dawn, and there was obviously something amiss with the horse, as he went out too fast for it to be just going off too quick.. That horse has had a few problems and looks to me like they possibly surfaced again yesterday.

UrbanSea

gcy1980 wrote: »

Just commenting on the hype that was surrounding Joseph O Brien. I just don't get it. I have seen a couple of comments about how he rode certain horses at Meydan. The ride he gave Await the Dawn was crazy. I don't think John Magnier will put up with him on some of the best horses in the world for too long. To think Johnny Murtagh left the yard because he envisioned less chances because of the upcoming Joseph is unreal. Go all out for Ryan Moore now or someone like William Buick! I could never understand the hype around Joseph and still can't see it. I'm not saying that Ryan Moore would have won on any of Joseph's rides tonight but what he done on Await the Dawn was suicide!!

How much had you on Await the Dawn?

tryfix

He's perfectly fine as a jockey, rides with confidence and has a sympathetic pair of hands on a horse. He seems to be able to settle a horse, so given that AWD flopped on his previous run, it's more likely that the horse is just not right and no one could have got much more out of it.

Joseph obviously wouldn't be getting the rides that he is getting if he wasn't who he is. He's not within an asses roar of the likes of Johnny Murtagh, as a second string jockey he'd be just fine.

NaiveMelodies

How can you criticise this lad?

Are Aidan O'Briens horses always supposed to win or am I missing something?

He's improved massively, theres no way Magnier et al would have him on board the good 'uns if he wasn't good enough. Naturally he's got to where he is down to his blood, but if people actually think he got the leg up on SYT last night purely down to who he is, they are clueless.
He does it week in week out in Dundalk on pigs, when his mount is in with a chance, he's one of the strongest finishers on a horse I've seen. His rides on Mutasareb and Copper Dock are just recent examples of outstanding riding.

gcy1980

I didn't actually have him backed and am not saying he is a terrible jockey either. He will be a good jockey, that's it. He will never be in the league of a Frankie Dettori or Kieran Fallon. There is talk about how his weight issues will see him move to national hunt racing and this will happen sooner rather then later. Magnier gives Aidan choice over which jockeys to use and only gets involved if he feels the need to. Remember Mick Kinane. He made couple of mistakes over a year or two on some horses and suddenly was gone. Jamie Spencer!! Kieran Fallon for off course problems. They will give him a chance; Magnier will sit back an observe. But there is a massive difference between "making the running" on a horse and burning out a horse after half a mile! Shocking ride!!

Nulty

You think he burned Await The Dawn out in that race do you?

Cityscape was two lenghts off him the whole way round and went and won by over 4 lengths. If you think he went to fast then your just simply wrong. The horse wasn't right and if it was he would have finished pretty close.

He set a solid gallop - nothing more nothing less. He pushed the horse to the lead and let him roll along out there. O'Brien always wants a solid gallop in his races and thats what he got. The horse underperformed - not the jockey.

Morgans

gcy1980 wrote: »

He will never be in the league of a Frankie Dettori or Kieran Fallon.

I hate this. Imagining hype. Has anyone ever said that he would be in the same league of Frankie Dettori or Kieran Fallon? Is there any source you could point to?

The strange thing is Fallon took a long long time to get to the top - often due to his own limitations (off the track) - and for a long time (maybe into his mid 20s) he never looked like he would become the jockey that he finally did. Same with Murtagh in fact, who needed a serious talking to before realising his talent.

At their ages, O'Brien has done more. That is not to say that he is nearly as good as Fallon/Murtagh now. However, with critics pretending that every serious racing fan is saying how brilliant Joseph O'Brien is the lad will never have a chance. Everytime he screws up it will be said that Fallon or Dettori would never make that mistake - despite Bosra Sham, Swain etc. Just leave the lad ride, you know before you bet on the horse who is riding and judge him by your own view, not by what others say, or what you are imaging others are saying.

He is an ok jockey, doesnt let down the side nearly as much as you would think, and he is young. learning, and will probably end up a very good trainer.

UrbanSea

Await the Dawn was surely going to have to set a good gallop. I was surprised he was in the race, he is screaming out for longer to me. He wouldn't have had the turn of foot had he sat in I'd imagine, he had to make it a test of stamina too.

mickey1979

My bit to this is yesterday he did feck all wrong. But nothing special so far. I presume that he is a worker and he will improve. I feel he is prob getting far more chances that he deserves at this stage in his career. But either way he has not done a whole lot wrong he will make mistakes but anyone 19 will. If he has his dad's attitude of constant improvement there is no reason why he cannot be at the very top of his sport sooner rather than later. Of course there is over the top hype but so far he has handled that well and I would have no qualms backing him on a horse.

jjll

aidan would not risk his horses with just anyone he knows a good jockey and he would be under pressure to get the horses black type so really would he put up his son if he didnt think he was not good enough

BangBeater

I think most of the criticism aimed at Joseph is completely unfair. He is very young and will naturally learn alot more in future. There is nothing more he could do with ATD. The horse was clearly wrong. He gave St Nich a great ride and could do no more going down by a head.

Gringo180

The thing with Await the Dawn is that the horse is so over rated, even on form he wasnt going to win that race on Saturday.

Group 2 horse at best.

UrbanSea

We saw a flash of brilliance when he won a group 3 by nine lengths before he was due to run in the Champion Stakes but was a non runner. Since then he won the Hardwicke well, but how he ran as an odds on shot in the Juddmonte is beyond me. I was thinking about this on my way home there, he was rated 121 or something before that race, it must be wrong.

Nulty

Could be just hard to train and get right? Didn't make a debut until 3 or 4yo

Gringo180

UrbanSea wrote: »

We saw a flash of brilliance when he won a group 3 by nine lengths before he was due to run in the Champion Stakes but was a non runner. Since then he won the Hardwicke well, but how he ran as an odds on shot in the Juddmonte is beyond me. I was thinking about this on my way home there, he was rated 121 or something before that race, it must be wrong.

Any 9 lenghts win on the flat is impressive, but the horse he beat that day is listed class at best and gave him 7lbs in weight. I couldnt fathom the price he was to beat Midday and Twice Over in the Juddmonte myself, 8/13 i think he was :eek:

UrbanSea

Nulty wrote: »

Could be just hard to train and get right? Didn't make a debut until 3 or 4yo

He ran twice at 2

nungesser

i don't think Joseph is an exceptional jockey, he is young and will learn but hasn't by any means paid his dues, my case in point is when it comes to a horse that needs to nursed or worked around the course to be put in a position to win, you've all seen this when a jockey has to really keep at a horse to keep him in the game, this is were Joseph falls short, he's great at steering a great horse around a course but when it comes to having to really work a horse i just don't see anything exceptional, I think Seamie and Conor are twice the jockeys that Joseph is.

UrbanSea

This is wrong.


Look at his ride on Tactician in the Ebor. Looks like he'd be totally swallowed up but finished second. To say he can only win on steer jobs is silly, why else would other trainers be using him? How many steering jobs do you see in a 45-60 handicap at Dundalk where it's 5/1 the field?

chinguetti

Lads, whether ye like JOB or not doesn't matter. If Magner & co thought he was as useless as some of ye say, he'll be 50 miles away from those horses.

Magner is a hard nosed businessman and a successful one at that who was one half of the group that stood up to Ferguson and his media chums a few years back over the Rock of Gib nonsense. They then sold the club when they made a good profit amid the howls of protests. Did they care, not a jot i would guess.

He's not keeping him to ride horses because he's the trainer's son, its because he believes him to be a good jockey i would think. Coolmore is a business and a world leader in stallions which are trained in Ballydoyle and they have to win Group 1s to become stallions, otherwise Coolmore will slowly die. Spencer was his godson and was sent packing after a year IIRC.

hucklebuck

RichieLawlor wrote: »

He doesn't compare to Barzalona, who is a proper jockey. An abundance of winners you say, my mother could win on those coolmore horses.

No perhaps I'm being unfair to the kid, but I don't think so, and if he is Ballydoyle number one at the end of this season I'll be very very surprised

I think you are being unfair, for a start the ammo in Coolmore is not what it was and I would be interested in comparing strike rates for their jockeys over the last while.

A lot of people seem to ignore his height which is a major factor, he is about a foot taller than Barzalona so when it comes to bullying a horse surely this is in Barzalonas favour.

He surely can't be a flat jockey for more than another year or two due to his height and I can't believe he can do 8st 6 standing at 5ft 10 (thought I heard 6ft somewhere).

I really feel for the guy, he is a decent jockey, seems a decent skin and as he rides for his dad he is being shot at, I am more impressed by him than I am by Sam/ Willie Twiston Davies, Sam Waley Cohen or Patrick Mullins.

Pity his height won't let him continue, I wonder would he consider training instead of going NH riding when it comes to the crunch.

UrbanSea

Forget 8-6 hucklebuck, he can't do 9 stone

hucklebuck

UrbanSea wrote: »

Forget 8-6 hucklebuck, he can't do 9 stone

He was 9 at Meydan, I was sure I heard of him doing 8-6. RP site says he has done 8-12 in last year.

UrbanSea

He used to be 3lbs overweight whenever he rode a 9 stone filly in a maiden while he still had his claim. He rode off 9-1 1 pound overweight on Ahimsa a few days ago in a maiden, I don't think he can do under 9 stone now

HigginsJ

hucklebuck wrote: »

I think you are being unfair, for a start the ammo in Coolmore is not what it was and I would be interested in comparing strike rates for their jockeys over the last while.

A lot of people seem to ignore his height which is a major factor, he is about a foot taller than Barzalona so when it comes to bullying a horse surely this is in Barzalonas favour.

He surely can't be a flat jockey for more than another year or two due to his height and I can't believe he can do 8st 6 standing at 5ft 10 (thought I heard 6ft somewhere).

I really feel for the guy, he is a decent jockey, seems a decent skin and as he rides for his dad he is being shot at, I am more impressed by him than I am by Sam/ Willie Twiston Davies, Sam Waley Cohen or Patrick Mullins.

Pity his height won't let him continue, I wonder would he consider training instead of going NH riding when it comes to the crunch.

Yea i have read that in a few places this could be his last year.

For proof of his ability just re-watch last years Irish 2000 Guineas. Great tactical ride perfectly judged

Shelflife

Hes a young lad and does a good job, not the finished article by a long way but ffs hes only 19.

the fact that people are saying that hes not as good as fallon or kinane is really a compliment to him, they have about 50yrs experience between them and hes still a teenager.

His weight will go against him unfortunately, cant see him going down the NH route prob will stay behind the scenes at ballydoyle.

AOB has always expressed a preference for a stable jockey who will ride work as well so thats one of the reasons why joe has got the gig.

good luck to him I say, hes taken his opportunity well.

mccarte2

hucklebuck wrote: »

I think you are being unfair, for a start the ammo in Coolmore is not what it was and I would be interested in comparing strike rates for their jockeys over the last while.

A lot of people seem to ignore his height which is a major factor, he is about a foot taller than Barzalona so when it comes to bullying a horse surely this is in Barzalonas favour.

He surely can't be a flat jockey for more than another year or two due to his height and I can't believe he can do 8st 6 standing at 5ft 10 (thought I heard 6ft somewhere).

I really feel for the guy, he is a decent jockey, seems a decent skin and as he rides for his dad he is being shot at, I am more impressed by him than I am by Sam/ Willie Twiston Davies, Sam Waley Cohen or Patrick Mullins.

Pity his height won't let him continue, I wonder would he consider training instead of going NH riding when it comes to the crunch.

Rumour has it that he'll be training NH horses down on Crowleys land in Kilkenny within the next 2-3 years and maybe riding a few of them himself. Might only be pub talk but still find it intriguing nonetheless. Have heard a couple of people say that he has a better eye for a horse than his Dad does so would be far better suited to training.

hucklebuck

mccarte2 wrote: »

Rumour has it that he'll be training NH horses down on Crowleys land in Kilkenny within the next 2-3 years and maybe riding a few of them himself. Might only be pub talk but still find it intriguing nonetheless. Have heard a couple of people say that he has a better eye for a horse than his Dad does so would be far better suited to training.

Hope this is true, I think he would be wasted riding NH when he can train. He must have some eye alright given he was reared by one of the best and he looks and has the manner of Aidan.

UrbanSea

mccarte2 wrote: »

Rumour has it that he'll be training NH horses down on Crowleys land in Kilkenny within the next 2-3 years and maybe riding a few of them himself. Might only be pub talk but still find it intriguing nonetheless. Have heard a couple of people say that he has a better eye for a horse than his Dad does so would be far better suited to training.

Remember seeing Aidan interviewed after Beethoven won the Dewhurst at 33/1. He had looked fairly exposed for a two year old at that stage, he said Joseph rode him out and suggested sticking blinkers on him. He would have been what age then, about 16? Shows he knew a thing or two back then

d-gal

Poor ride on Up in the guineas trial, didn't settle him quickly enough and ran up the arse a bit of fire lily in the final furlong. Don't know if he would of won but homecoming queen is def not a guineas horse and prefers more of a cut in the ground

UrbanSea

d-gal wrote: »

Poor ride on Up in the guineas trial, didn't settle him quickly enough and ran up the arse a bit of fire lily in the final furlong. Don't know if he would of won but homecoming queen is def not a guineas horse and prefers more of a cut in the ground

Not a chance. Up needs a mile and a quarter to a mile and a half I think.

You also fail to mention that Fire Lily is rated 111. I think you're taking a lot away from Homecoming Queen

d-gal

UrbanSea wrote: »

d-gal wrote: »

Poor ride on Up in the guineas trial, didn't settle him quickly enough and ran up the arse a bit of fire lily in the final furlong. Don't know if he would of won but homecoming queen is def not a guineas horse and prefers more of a cut in the ground

Not a chance. Up needs a mile and a quarter to a mile and a half I think.

You also fail to mention that Fire Lily is rated 111. I think you're taking a lot away from Homecoming Queen

I think Up is a mile or mile quarter horse. I think fire lily is better over shorter.
Homecoming better with cut in the ground.
Was actually a poor guineas trial tbh

UrbanSea

I think the 2000 guineas one was even worse. I'd be surprised if Furner's Green were to be any better than group 3 level.

d-gal

UrbanSea wrote: »

I think the 2000 guineas one was even worse. I'd be surprised if Furner's Green were to be any better than group 3 level.

Agreed akeed wafi is not group class at all.

mr.jingle

d-gal wrote: »

Poor ride on Up in the guineas trial, didn't settle him quickly enough and ran up the arse a bit of fire lily in the final furlong. Don't know if he would of won but homecoming queen is def not a guineas horse and prefers more of a cut in the ground

Wins the first two races but not a mentions praise:rolleyes::rolleyes: More pocket talk:rolleyes:

d-gal

mr.jingle wrote: »

d-gal wrote: »

Poor ride on Up in the guineas trial, didn't settle him quickly enough and ran up the arse a bit of fire lily in the final furlong. Don't know if he would of won but homecoming queen is def not a guineas horse and prefers more of a cut in the ground

Wins the first two races but not a mentions praise:rolleyes::rolleyes: More pocket talk:rolleyes:

No pocket talk so less of you please and your rolleyes. Guineas trial races would interest any horse enthusiast and no need for betting.
Both winning rides were fairly easy rides and most would agree, especially furners green race.


Try to have some better input into the conversation anymore.

mr.jingle

d-gal wrote: »

No pocket talk so less of you please and your rolleyes. Guineas trial races would interest any horse enthusiast and no need for betting.
Both winning rides were fairly easy rides and most would agree, especially furners green race.


Try to have some better input into the conversation anymore.

A Guineas Trial with some actual hope of a Guineas winner would be nice there's no hope either of the winners or anything in behind has a chance in either Guineas. Don't think he could have done much more was never getting to either Homecoming Queen or Fire Lily who looked a bit reluctant to me when really asked to challenge at one stage i thought she was gonna run away from them

Both winning rides may have been fairly easy but you still have to do the job it's all well and good he win's handily but if he's beaten on one he's knocked.

Sorry for my poor response i'm getting caught up in these ante Grand National posts all over the place it's really affecting my actual horse racing input with names i'm not familiar with on this forum:D It was just a typical talk out of pocket response a personal pet hate of mine and i'm sure many others.










:rolleyes::D:D

tryfix

As usual O'Briens are coming on loads from their first run of the season. Thought Sharestan was the eyecatcher today, he ran a very promising race to be second to Famous Name.

d-gal

mr.jingle wrote: »

A Guineas Trial with some actual hope of a Guineas winner would be nice there's no hope either of the winners or anything in behind has a chance in either Guineas. Don't think he could have done much more was never getting to either Homecoming Queen or Fire Lily who looked a bit reluctant to me when really asked to challenge at one stage i thought she was gonna run away from them

Both winning rides may have been fairly easy but you still have to do the job it's all well and good he win's handily but if he's beaten on one he's knocked.

Sorry for my poor response i'm getting caught up in these ante Grand National posts all over the place it's really affecting my actual horse racing input with names i'm not familiar with on this forum:D It was just a typical talk out of pocket response a personal pet hate of mine and i'm sure many others.

no bother I hate pocket talk as well! The amount of people that come in for Cheltenham and Aintree and claim to have every winner wrecked my head.

It was a poor Guineas trial alright. Homecoming is not a Guineas horse and Fire lily was the best horse in the race but she was in the wrong distance and I personally think 6furlongs is her trip.
Usually I would be full of praise for JP but it was a poor ride. I watched the replay again and got badly outpaced and ran up the ass of Fire lily in the end. The horse will be better over a mile no doubt as Urban pointed out

myfeelings

Problem with O'Brien is he over thinks his rides and is afraid to make a mistake

UrbanSea

Anyone see the ride he gave Imperial Monarch today at Sandown? Very clever

d-gal

UrbanSea wrote: »

Anyone see the ride he gave Imperial Monarch today at Sandown? Very clever

Fair balls alright. Would have been lambasted if lost, looks a lovely horse. AOB said ground was way more compact out wide

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

Anyone see the ride he gave Imperial Monarch today at Sandown? Very clever

He got the business done but I thought he could have left it until a bit later in the horseshoe bend to switch across. What do you make of the winner? Looks the type that could place in the Derby or maybe even win an Irish one. The heavy ground has rendered all trials run on it useless, I wouldn't give the slightest heed to the very soft ground form, only to discount those that have shown exaggerated form on it as overrated.

NaiveMelodies

I love this kid.
Peach on Six Silver Lane there, he had no right to win that 7.45 race at Dundalk.

UrbanSea

The 3rd got done at 1.01

hucklebuck

His ride on Monarch was very ballsy and smart.

Reminded me of Moore on Notnowcato in the Coral Eclipse except Moore angled Kato off the last bend. Great race if you havent seen it, he beat Authorised and poor auld Gorgeous George.

Monarch is definately one to follow, he must have ran at least an extra furlong and looked quick too.

kfallon

hucklebuck wrote: »

His ride on Monarch was very ballsy and smart.

Reminded me of Moore on Notnowcato in the Coral Eclipse except Moore angled Kato off the last bend. Great race if you havent seen it, he beat Authorised and poor auld Gorgeous George.

Monarch is definately one to follow, he must have ran at least an extra furlong and looked quick too.

Seamie was some joke on George that day! :rolleyes: Rode the horse as if he wouldn't stay 10f instead of riding him like he would get the trip no problem! Hung on to him far too long!