Not hetrosexual but Catholic?

GarIT

Over on the Christianity forum I have been told that anyone from the LGBT community cannot be a Catholic, I have also been told that every single person that put Catholic as their religion was a legitimate Catholic. So can I ask is there anyone here that ticked Catholic as their religion. I'm not looking for a debate on who is right or wrong. I just want to show that LGBT people can be religious.

OakeyDokey

I'm Catholic and I'm in the LGBT community! I believe in God and Jesus etc. Although I'm not madly religious doesn't make me not Catholic.

I don't understand how being in the LGBT community can revoke a persons faith?

Shakti

It's alright as long as you feel guilty about it

Locker10a

GarIT wrote: »

Over on the Christianity forum I have been told that anyone from the LGBT community cannot be a Catholic, I have also been told that every single person that put Catholic as their religion was a legitimate Catholic. So can I ask is there anyone here that ticked Catholic as their religion. I'm not looking for a debate on who is right or wrong. I just want to show that LGBT people can be religious.

hah dont heed them! they like to think everyone who ticked catholic is a "legitimate" catholic ! I ticked catholic because i have faith and was raised a catholic, i dont follow the teachings of the church but neither do any of my friends(about 90% of them are catholic) and they are straight, gay, bi etc, and I could not name one of them who doesnt break the rules of the church on a weekly basis! The vast majorty of Irish catholics under the age of 30 dont follow the catholic rules and they dont care either so...

ninty9er

I'm Catholic, I go to mass a few times a year for family occasions and Christmas and I'm gay.

Catholcism doesn't condemn me for being homosexual, but it does condemn anything I do that is inherently homosexual, such as sex with another man.

Catholocism doesn't condemn any people, it condemns actions, something oft forgotten by the high halo brigade.

MagicMarker

If you're actively homosexual, then put simply, you're not a catholic.

If you approve of and use contraception, then you're not a catholic.

If you approve of and have pre marital sex, then you're not a catholic.

The list is endless...

You can have belief in a God, Jesus, whatever but you're not. a. catholic.

Goodshape

I wish people would stop ticking that Catholic box if they have no interest in following the rules. It gives the institution far too much power.

"Believing in Christ" does not make you catholic. Plenty of other Christian religions out there if that's the way you want to go.

Shakti

so how do you stop being a catholic then?

wonderfulname

Given some of the ridiculous statements I've seen over in the Christianity forum I'd say you have as much a right to call yourself Catholic as most of them do, ignoring the don't act gay bit is as bad as not believing the pope is infallible, not attending mass, using contraception, having sex before marriage, not taking literally various miracles, etc. etc.

And of course you can be a true Catholic and gay you just have to be celibate too.

Having said that I don't understand why people insist upon calling themselves Catholic when their beliefs don't match, there are plenty of Christian sects that more adequately describe many peoples religious, if not cultural persuasions.

Sorry for the rant, to answer your question I had the pleasure of putting down "Catholic" in the census on the behalf of my partner, probably the only person I've met of my own age who actually fits that profile somewhat despite my being around so I had no real ranting rights there. We're an odd, odd match.

MagicMarker

Shakti wrote: »

so how do you stop being a catholic then?

You stop as soon as you stop believing in the teachings of the catholic church.

Shakti

MagicMarker wrote: »

You stop as soon as you stop believing in the teachings of the catholic church.

all of them, or just the current ones?
I thought you had to have an excommunication done, ie. in by ceremony baptism out by excommunication.

Goodshape

Shakti wrote: »

so how do you stop being a catholic then?

Being catholic isn't like being Irish, or English, or Spanish. It's not a nationality. You can denounce your passport and move abroad but you'll always be an Irish person.

With religion you either agree to follow the not very subtle rules, or you don't. I really fail to see the point of ever claiming to be a catholic if you're not actually interested in being a catholic. Particularly with Christianity which is so fractured anyway. If religion is so important to you, you can probably keep your Jesus and find something more in-line with your own philosophy.


Or, preferably, don't. Think for yourself.

moceri

You could make some heretical pronouncement and have yourself excommunicated.

Shakti

well according to the vatican:

It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.

so even if you leave officially or unofficially as far as they are concerned the c.c. still consider you catholic,

MagicMarker

Go up to a priest, tell him you're gay and you don't believe in god, see if he says you're a catholic or not.

As for what the vatican say, if that meant anything to me then I guess I would be a catholic. McDonalds may have made that statement for all I care.

Shakti

MagicMarker wrote: »

Go up to a priest, tell him you're gay and you don't believe in god, see if he says you're a catholic or not.

Been there done that several times,
Not overlooking their brutality in my youth they never once implied that I would no longer be a catholic.

Goodshape

Shakti wrote: »

well according to the vatican:

Yeah but according to the Vatican: a lot of crazy sh!t.

They can believe whatever they want, they seem to enjoy that sort of thing. I never agreed to join any club, I'm all grown up now, and I say I'm not: so I'm not.

Your morals, religious and spiritual life are more than a piece of paper sitting in the back room of a church somewhere.

MagicMarker

Well how can you be a catholic if you dont believe in catholic doctrine?

If I don't believe in God, oppose religion in most ways and especially dislike the Catholic Church, am I a catholic simply because I was baptized at a time when I had no choice in the matter?

Shakti

MagicMarker wrote: »

Well how can you be a catholic if you dont believe in catholic doctrine?

By baptism once your in as far as the c.c. is concerned your in for life even if they kick you out or you go believe in something else or nothing etc. etc. its religion its not meant to be logical

If I don't believe in God, oppose religion in most ways and especially dislike the Catholic Church, am I a catholic simply because I was baptized at a time when I had no choice in the matter?

How about ....'they think your are but you know your not'

Shakti

Goodshape wrote: »

Yeah but according to the Vatican: a lot of crazy sh!t.

They can believe whatever they want, they seem to enjoy that sort of thing. I never agreed to join any club, I'm all grown up now, and I say I'm not: so I'm not.

Your morals, religious and spiritual life are more than a piece of paper sitting in the back room of a church somewhere.

quite,

but I think the op is about how you can be LGBT and still be catholic ie. people who wish to be catholic and are also LGBT and how the c.c. reconciles prohibitive, phobic, narrow, and overwhelmingly patriarchal misogynistic doctrine with people who ignore and reject that doctrine but still wish to be c.c. members.

baby and crumble

I love that I'm protestant sometimes. I don't have to deal with any of this malarkey.

Goodshape

Shakti wrote: »

but I think the op is about how you can be LGBT and still be catholic

Celibacy?

I'm afraid that'd be one area where I agree with the more hard-line folks over on the Christianity Forum... if you're not interested in the rules, why join (or claim to belong to, or want to belong to) the group? What are they offering that no other group can?


Don't beat yourself up about it.. you just don't fit the strict catholic mould. Most people don't, just most people don't care to think about it. If it's actually bothering you, don't worry -- Christ and Catholicism are different things. Research some other Christian religions, and just stop claiming to be Catholic. Stop ticking that box! They really don't need your vote, however passive it may be.

wonderfulname

Goodshape wrote: »

if you're not interested in the rules, why join (or claim to belong to, or want to belong to) the group? What are they offering that no other group can?

Who says they're not interested? You don't join the group in Ireland, you're born into it, then some time later you realise you're LGBT. It's a very understandable contradiction for people to be faced with.

Most LGBT at some point come to the conclusion they are the same person they ever were, they just happen to be queer, of course that's going to be applied to religion too.

And Catholicism offers a huge amount over other groups, it's own communities, hierarchies, rituals, even, in effect, demigods. If you're already a part of that, and believe in it, I can see how it's hard to take, nonsensical even, that you're suddenly not supposed to be included, over something which you can't control and has no bearing on who you are as a person.

Being gay and catholic may be as sinful and hypocritical as making many of the choices people do in spite of their religion, but it is in no way as simple, and whilst I don't get your typical cultural or a la carte Catholic, and will generally give them the exact same advice you've just given Shakti, it is different for LGBT ones because they haven't really made any choice. You might say the choice to act but in all fairness lifelong penance isn't what most others are opting against.

This is all, of course, assuming someone who can be fairly described a Catholic, with the exception of sexuality or identity, rather than a cultural Catholic who happens to be LGBT.

Goodshape

Wonderfulname wrote:

You don't join the group in Ireland, you're born into it

Is that even legal, strictly speaking? I guess my parents made the choice for me, so maybe it is. But if there were ever some serious occasion where my membership-or-not of the ROC became an issue, claiming I am simply because I was baptised as a baby seems a little weak to me.

Most LGBT at some point come to the conclusion they are the same person they ever were, they just happen to be queer

That's definitely very true, a "realisation" I had myself and something I've said more than once to others as they were coming out: You're still the same person.

But a lot of people are raised by their parents to believe what their parents believe. Very often there is another, separate, point of realisation --- that your parents are not infallible and these things, such as religion, can be questioned with an independent mind.

That's got nothing necessarily to do with being gay but if the trigger for that realisation coincides with your coming out, and not wanting to be part of a group which condemns you for it, then so be it.

You're still the same person outside of the Catholic Church, too. Your own morals don't change. They were yours to begin with.

wonderfulname

Goodshape wrote: »

Is that even legal, strictly speaking?

You are definitely not the first person to ask this, numerous cases have been brought against the Catholic Church over their refusal to strike out baptismal records to reflect non belief, in effect for counting their followers based on acts committed on infants, but the law has yet to see it quite that way, it's merely a historical record in it's eyes so yes, inducting minors into a faith in a manner that will affect them throughout their lives is completely legal, if a tad questionable.

Goodshape wrote: »

You're still the same person outside of the Catholic Church, too. Your own morals don't change. They were yours to begin with.

I completely agree with you, but again there's more to it than that. I grew up in the country, I visited the priest every weekend, I'd see another every Sunday at my gran's kitchen table, every one of my friends served at mass. How I ate, what I wore, my pastimes, my mannerisms, were heavily influenced by Catholicism, and that was in a family that didn't believe. Add in belief you have even more church interaction, community interaction in many, many religious events, a host more behaviours, secondary beliefs, coping mechanisms, all unique to Catholicism and I could go on... When you're in that environment you lose so much by not being a part of the church, it's not just a group, it's a decent portion of peoples lives and a huge influence on who they have become. I wasn't raised at all Catholic for where I was from and I was always outside for that, I can't imagine how it would feel to believe, and to be a part of it all, then have it taken from you just because you're gay.

I'm telling you you're painting it way too black and white.

Shakti

Goodshape wrote: »

Celibacy?

As in priests?

I'm afraid that'd be one area where I agree with the more hard-line folks over on the Christianity Forum... if you're not interested in the rules, why join (or claim to belong to, or want to belong to) the group? What are they offering that no other group can?

Perfect example....
I think it was last year that married church of england bishops defected and were accepted into the catholic church, they left the anglican faith because of what they saw as the liberalisation of anglicanism ie. women priests, gay marriage, gay priests etc. and were attracted to the more conservative catholicism, but in turn required a liberalisation of that same catholicism in order for them to be accepted into the catholic church and still have a sex life with their wives.

Don't beat yourself up about it.. you just don't fit the strict catholic mould.

Ahem, I'm not catholic thanks,
as for beating myself up unfortunately yes for many years and if it wasn't me doing it it was the christian brothers who weren't very christian and not very brotherly either.

Goodshape

wonderfulname wrote: »

inducting minors into a faith in a manner that will affect them throughout their lives is completely legal, if a tad questionable.

Whether or not it has to affect you throughout your entire life is, I guess, what we're talking about here. I was baptised, christened and confirmed (each one with increasing protests, even at that age) -- and that's pretty much all I've ever (directly) had to do with the Church.

It hasn't affected me. It is just an historical record. Can't change history... doesn't make me catholic.

I completely agree with you, but again there's more to it than that.
...

As an aside, I grew up in the country too. I actually moved back here a few months ago. In the previous census this town was found to be the "most Catholic town in Ireland", there was an Irish Times article about it.


Anyway, I think you're confusing Irish culture with the Catholic Church and I think too many people do. Similar to not loosing your morals, and remaining the "same person", the behaviours, secondary beliefs and coping mechanisms you mention don't need to be abandoned because of the realisation that Catholicism doesn't work for you.

Your traditions -- or having a priest at the table for dinner -- aren't bound to your belonging to the Roman Catholic Church. I still celebrate Christmas, looking forward to some chocolate next weekend, and I still visit my Granny who goes to mass regularly (well, actually, I should do that more often. But I certainly haven't denounced her!)

What is bound to the church is a set of goals, rewards, rules and punishments which as an independent thinker I simply can't agree with. Separately, as a gay person, I'm really just not compatible with either. Yet by ticking that box, or claiming to be Catholic when asked, I'd be giving credence to the assumption that 71% of Irish people do agree to the rules or the Church.


Keep the traditions: they're part of us now. Even keep Jesus if you want to. But let's have the courage to say we don't align ourselves with that particular church.

Doctor DooM

Some of the responses in this thread make me very sad.

84% of people claimed to be Catholic in the recent census, I would say quite a few not realising what it means. this thread backs it up.

It means that the Catholic church will apply pressure to the govt. claiming to represent the majority of people in Ireland. Among other things.

Equality is not on their agenda. Non catholic education is not on their agenda. There is nothing good about claiming to be Catholic for LGBT people in this country. No equal civil partnership for marriages (they laughably claim marriage is some kind of sacred religious institute, instead of some kind of amorphous changing thing since near pre history), no sex education in schools preaching equality for homosexuality.

I would sincerely ask that people consider the difference between Catholicism- which follows the edicts of pope Ratzinger, who it is likely ignored the pleas of the abused over the years- and Christianity- and reassess whether they are catholic or christian.

It affects everyone, LGBT or not, in this country- and I personally want the place to be equal for EVERYONE. The catholic church don't want that, and use weasel words to hide it.

Goodshape

Shakti wrote: »

As in priests?

A fine example of how well that can work.

Or maybe I've got that backwards.

Perfect example....
I think it was last year that married church of england bishops defected and were accepted into the catholic church

I'd probably ask them why they'd want in, too. Were they let in and allowed to keep their wives?

The cynic in me (which is strong in these matters) thinks the RCC were probably just happy to get any new recruits. Keep the business going.

Ahem, I'm not catholic thanks

I actually meant a general "you", not you personal

Sorry to hear about the "Christian brother" trouble though. That couldn't have been much fun.

Doctor DooM

This probably explains a lot better than I could.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqB3F6N527U

Shakti

Goodshape wrote: »

Were they let in and allowed to keep their wives?

Yes, wives, sex, marriage all with the popes blessing,

I actually meant a general "you", not you personal

Sorry to hear about the "Christian brother" trouble though. That couldn't have been much fun.

Just one of thousands, had a chip on my shoulder about it for years I choose to let it go now but I think if they had of been nicer and accepting to me like they were to loads of other kids I'd probably be still part of that whole scene.
Looking back it makes me realise what a bunch of psychos they were so I try to take something positive from it by being able to see them for what they really were/are now, if they behaved now like they did then they would quite simply be locked up, but I'm not going to begrudge people their faith or their lifestyle because of my experiences that to me would be just be an inversion of intolerance.

wonderfulname

Goodshape wrote: »

Anyway, I think you're confusing Irish culture with the Catholic Church and I think too many people do. Similar to not loosing your morals, and remaining the "same person", the behaviours, secondary beliefs and coping mechanisms you mention don't need to be abandoned because of the realisation that Catholicism doesn't work for you.

Firstly if you grew up with the same kind of background I did you should be aware a lot of the cultural aspects are lost or sullied when you distance yourself from the religion. Secondly the secondary beliefs, coping mechanisms, rituals what have you that I am referring to are ones you will only utilise or partake in as a member of the Catholic Church. What I've been trying to illustrate to you without avail is that a huge portion of genuine Catholicism, as well as Irish Catholicism, is unique to that faith and cannot be found elsewhere, or in isolation, and if someone truly subscribes to that faith in all it's glory it's not going to make sense to them to leave it just because they're queer.

Goodshape wrote: »

What is bound to the church is a set of goals, rewards, rules and punishments which as an independent thinker I simply can't agree with.

Elaborate? I'm curious now.

Goodshape wrote: »

Keep the traditions: they're part of us now. Even keep Jesus if you want to. But let's have the courage to say we don't align ourselves with that particular church.

Hi Goodshape, I'm a big oul' Atheist, haven't aligned myself the church since I was a small child, and don't keep any traditions particular to Catholicism, although I suspect very few do. I just think it's very, very simplistic, and somewhat insulting, to tell people they can't identify with their own faith over something out of their control. Being queer and Catholic (in isolation) does not merit the same response as a self professed Catholic who willingly ignores, or is ignorant of, elements of the faith they merely do not agree with.

Dr. DooM - Should I try and illustrate same to you or are you referring to someone else's posts?

Goodshape

I don't think we're understanding each other here.

You're saying it's insulting, simplistic and unfair to tell someone they can't be catholic due to something out of their control, like being gay.

It's also insulting, simplistic and unfair to be told your "way of life" is a sin, that you can't marry the person you love, and the greatest reward on offer is not on offer to you.

But that's the way it is.


Maybe there are a few fringe cases where simply saying "I'm not a catholic, I don't follow that dogma" will have the dire repercussions you suggest but I'd like to think not many. I've certainly never encountered anything like it and I suspect you're taking a bit of a "yeah, but what if..." approach. If you're not, fine, I'd still suggest your case is not the norm.

I was raised alongside everyone else in this "most catholic" town and can see various degrees of attachment to Catholicism in my peers and among their families. What I don't see are any signs of social or cultural upheaval among any of my friends who have since decided to 'not be' Catholic any more.

wonderfulname wrote: »

Hi Goodshape, I'm a big oul' Atheist

Sorry, again, that was a general "you", not you personally. Maybe I should stop doing that.

I just think it's very, very simplistic, and somewhat insulting, to tell people they can't identify with their own faith over something out of their control.

If you are seriously devoted to your faith then I guess you're going to have a hard time of it. But I don't think I'm the one making it difficult here. The rules are pretty clear and you can try to be celibate if you want. What I'm trying to get across is two things: 1) not being catholic is just fine, you can still be yourself!, and 2) for those many people who just "tick the box" while wilfully disregarding the rules: please stop. Those numbers add up and this is why we can't have nice things.

wonderfulname

Goodshape wrote: »

I don't think we're understanding each other here.

You're saying it's insulting, simplistic and unfair to tell someone they can't be catholic due to something out of their control, like being gay.

It's also insulting, simplistic and unfair to be told your "way of life" is a sin, that you can't marry the person you love, and the greatest reward on offer is not on offer to you.

But that's the way it is.

And how is that an argument for or against anything? You don't like how the Catholic hierarchy treats you therefore you must treat Catholic laity in a similar fashion? I don't follow.

Goodshape wrote: »

I've certainly never encountered anything like it and I suspect you're taking a bit of a "yeah, but what if..." approach. If you're not, fine, I'd still suggest your case is not the norm.

No, no I'm not, I've seen careers grind to a halt and friendships and affiliations slip away over mass attendance and church donations never mind anything more, granted it's not in my generation but I have met very few people of my generation you could realistically call Christians let alone Catholics, those are the people you get to bug into actually considering what they declare their beliefs as, not practising Catholics who have already been saddled with the burden of being evil, I figure they've done their share of consideration.

Goodshape wrote: »

If you are seriously devoted to your faith then I guess you're going to have a hard time of it. But I don't think I'm the one making it difficult here. The rules are pretty clear and you can try to be celibate if you want. What I'm trying to get across is two things: 1) not being catholic is just fine, you can still be yourself!, and 2) for those many people who just "tick the box" while wilfully disregarding the rules: please stop. Those numbers add up and this is why we can't have nice things.

I think I've already covered how the contradiction of Catholic and gay can arise, Stephen Fry, in the video you thanked, even acknowledged the internal struggle of Catholic laity with regard such matters, and was gracious enough to recognise it would be "impertinent and wrong" of him to express antagonism towards individuals affiliated with such groups. Several times I have reiterated that I am speaking of LGBT Catholics alone, and not those who are Catholic just because, what I am trying to get across to you is that in this context what you're attempting to put forward is completely irrelevant because it's not a case of box tickers or cultural labels.

the_syco

GarIT wrote: »

Over on the Christianity forum

If any catholic has sex outside marriage, or use a condom whilst in marriage, they automatically become "not true catholics" and thus will most likely get banished to "hell".

Their religion, their rules. I don't care about most of them, I just lol at the ones who consider themselves better than me, but who'll goto hell in a handbasket as they've probably broken several rules made by the invisible man in the clouds... :pac:

Darkglasses

It's about belief OP. Now I don't think for a second that homosexuality is a sin, but even it was, then what? Is everyone who sins not a Catholic? There's an awful lot more to being a Catholic than what gender your partners are. Just my two cents.

Goodshape

wonderfulname wrote: »

And how is that an argument for or against anything?

I wasn't arguing for or against anything there. Just stating how things are.

No, no I'm not, I've seen careers grind to a halt and friendships and affiliations slip away over mass attendance and church donations never mind anything more, granted it's not in my generation

Well I can't speak for other generations. Homosexuality was decriminalised less than 20 years ago... I can only imagine how difficult it was for gay people in Ireland, particularly rural Ireland, in previous generations. But I'm more interested in how things are and how they progress. If not being catholic causes you serious social anguish in 2012: that's a problem.

I have met very few people of my generation you could realistically call Christians let alone Catholics, those are the people you get to bug into actually considering what they declare their beliefs as, not practising Catholics who have already been saddled with the burden of being evil, I figure they've done their share of consideration.

I don't mean to bug anyone out of their beliefs. I do think "Catholics" with no interest in the religion should stop "ticking the box" just out of habit or because their mammy was a catholic. No-one's loosing out there, and it's something I honestly think is worth encouraging. Let's get some real numbers for once.

I do concede that not every de facto "sinner" should by rights denounce their faith (there's always time for confession!)... but if someone is going to start asking questions I'm going to encourage that too, and perhaps offer alternatives.

Stephen Fry, in the video you thanked, even acknowledged the internal struggle of Catholic laity with regard such matters, and was gracious enough to recognise it would be "impertinent and wrong" of him to express antagonism towards individuals affiliated with such groups.

But Stephen Fry isn't a catholic and why would he be? They actively condemn his "kind" as sinful and wrong. Much of my family on my mothers side are practising Catholic and I wouldn't antagonise them for it either. It works for them and that's fine. On occasions they have been interested in my opposing views and I've encouraged that, answered questions, and suggested alternatives. That's not antagonism. It's always surprising to me how little their generation have heard about any alternative view points regarding spirituality.


I guess I'll also concede that because you're gay doesn't mean that you have to leave the church. If that were the case for all "sinners" there'd be no Catholics left. I'm pretty sure they don't kick people out too often at all. But if this is a gateway into asking questions and thinking independently then again, I'm going to encourage that and point out alternatives to "being Catholic".


Can you be gay and a catholic: Yes, I guess you technically can -- and I suppose I left that bit out before -- but, now that I have your attention: why would you need or even want to be?

Doctor DooM

wonderfulname wrote: »

Firstly if you grew up with the same kind of background I did you should be aware a lot of the cultural aspects are lost or sullied when you distance yourself from the religion. Secondly the secondary beliefs, coping mechanisms, rituals what have you that I am referring to are ones you will only utilise or partake in as a member of the Catholic Church. What I've been trying to illustrate to you without avail is that a huge portion of genuine Catholicism, as well as Irish Catholicism, is unique to that faith and cannot be found elsewhere, or in isolation, and if someone truly subscribes to that faith in all it's glory it's not going to make sense to them to leave it just because they're queer.

Elaborate? I'm curious now.

Hi Goodshape, I'm a big oul' Atheist, haven't aligned myself the church since I was a small child, and don't keep any traditions particular to Catholicism, although I suspect very few do. I just think it's very, very simplistic, and somewhat insulting, to tell people they can't identify with their own faith over something out of their control. Being queer and Catholic (in isolation) does not merit the same response as a self professed Catholic who willingly ignores, or is ignorant of, elements of the faith they merely do not agree with.Dr. DooM - Should I try and illustrate same to you or are you referring to someone else's posts?

I was referring to everyones posts.

None of your post addresses the fact that, in Ireland, if you call yourself catholic, you are being used by the worlds biggest homophobic organisation (calling a spade a spade) to apply pressure to the lawmakers of the land.

If you don't think this happens- well, it's all over the news that as little as 5 years ago rules were drawn up to ensure catholic children were being segregated from their class mates in secular schools.

I don't see how it's insulting or simplistic to ask people to look into the consequences of claiming to be something they are not, and even when they think about it would actually probably loathe- and I'm sorry, but if you have sex before marriage, or homosexual sex at all, or don't attend church, you are not behaving in a catholic way. You might just about be some form of protestant

If you still think I am simplifying, you should go check out the Christianity forum here- the committed catholics here on boards rather dislike the a la cartism (as it's often referred to) that you speak of above. Catholicism is an all in or nothing deal.

Of course, people make up their own minds about god and what he wants, and it's amazing how to most people, god basically agrees with them, and doesn't judge their lifestyle choices. It's almost like they've just made up a god that they like in their heads.

lottpaul

GarIT wrote: »

Over on the Christianity forum I have been told that anyone from the LGBT community cannot be a Catholic.

From browsing through some of the posts on that forum over the years people are told many crazy and controversial things, so I wouldnn't be too concerned about what some (extremists) say. They yearn for churches of strict adherents to ther very narrow view of Catholicism -- largely empty churches, but they seem to prefer "quality" over quantity.

GarIT wrote: »

So can I ask is there anyone here that ticked Catholic as their religion.

I ticked the RC box on behalf of my other half - who for the first time in his life gave it considerable thought - for all of the reasons listed in other posts. Long story short, he didn't want to leave it blank because he does have a "faith" but it stems from his upbringing and is as much a part of him as his political beliefs, his sporting tradition etc and would be described on the Northern Ireland census as "from a Catholic cultural background".
But does he subscribe to all of the teachings of the RC church? Not a chance - 50% at best, on a very good day - and they would be the ones about loving your neighbour etc.
Did he resent having to do it - on the grounds that the local Bishop would now be able to claim that his domain was still overwhelmingly Catholic? You'd better believe it.

GarIT wrote: »

I'm not looking for a debate on who is right or wrong.

God bless your innocence


A few random thoughts to add fuel to the fire:

• I attended a funeral Mass a week or so ago in a small rural church - the celebrant is widely known to be gay, the reader is gay (but not openly), a good 50% of the choir is gay etc etc. Is this atypical of many parishes? I doubt it.
• At the end of the day -- if/when there is a "final judgement" as Christians believe, will we be asked are you a good Catholic/Methodist/Presbyterian etc? I doubt it very much. So the good people in the Christianity forum who are so keen to label everyone may be very disappointed.
• As part of a community that has struggled/still struggles to be recognised and accepted I personally don't really care what "label" people want to give themselves as long as they feel comfortable with it.

GarIT

What I would love to know from this is, while there is an organisation out there where its members condemn you, some hate you and the extreme Catholics even want to kill you, and the same organisation draws its powers from its numbers would you subscribe to it? We would have gay marriage years ago as well of other things if the church didn't have so much power.

I think this thread has shown two things that the Catholics are in denial of. That there are people in the LGBT community who consider themselves to be catholic and also that nearly nobody that is a Catholic actually gives a s#!\ about the rules.

gcgirl

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Some of the responses in this thread make me very sad.

84% of people claimed to be Catholic in the recent census, I would say quite a few not realising what it means. this thread backs it up.

It means that the Catholic church will apply pressure to the govt. claiming to represent the majority of people in Ireland. Among other things.

Equality is not on their agenda. Non catholic education is not on their agenda. There is nothing good about claiming to be Catholic for LGBT people in this country. No equal civil partnership for marriages (they laughably claim marriage is some kind of sacred religious institute, instead of some kind of amorphous changing thing since near pre history), no sex education in schools preaching equality for homosexuality.

I would sincerely ask that people consider the difference between Catholicism- which follows the edicts of pope Ratzinger, who it is likely ignored the pleas of the abused over the years- and Christianity- and reassess whether they are catholic or christian.

It affects everyone, LGBT or not, in this country- and I personally want the place to be equal for EVERYONE. The catholic church don't want that, and use weasel words to hide it.

+ a million
I think most people of being guilty of confusing having to be a catholic to be actually Irish, the majority of the people i know do not follow the rules of the catholic church, in reality they are cultural Catholics and have no theological knowledge, and myself I don't really see how any body can follow a church who condemns our community and will go at any lent to deny us equality

Shakti

gcgirl wrote: »

+ a million
I think most people of being guilty of confusing having to be a catholic to be actually Irish, the majority of the people i know do not follow the rules of the catholic church, in reality they are cultural Catholics and have no theological knowledge, and myself I don't really see how any body can follow a church who condemns our community and will go at any lent to deny us equality

awesome typo

wonderfulname

Goodshape wrote: »

why would you need or even want to be?

I've already answered that.

I really don't get how this thread is the usual shallow bitchfest against cultural Catholics, someone who sees themselves as gay and Catholic is not necessarily one of these, although I will admit the overlap is bloody huge.

Doctor DooM - the reason I don't address the hierarchy is because that is not what the thread was started about, it was started with reference to laity. If you want to know my views/knowledge on secularisation, equal rights, and the churches part in it all you'll find them plastered all over A&A and Christianity. As for your assertions that a gay catholic is a protestant and being gay and Catholic can be equated with sex before marriage etc., I've already explained my disagreement.

gcgirl

Shakti wrote: »

gcgirl wrote: »

+ a million
I think most people of being guilty of confusing having to be a catholic to be actually Irish, the majority of the people i know do not follow the rules of the catholic church, in reality they are cultural Catholics and have no theological knowledge, and myself I don't really see how any body can follow a church who condemns our community and will go at any lent to deny us equality

awesome typo

Damn autocorrect

gcgirl

The Church of Ireland's views on homosexuals don't really differ that much from the catholic church, but the COI are not as vocal as the catholic church on these things

baby and crumble

gcgirl wrote: »

The Church of Ireland's views on homosexuals don't really differ that much from the catholic church, but the COI are not as vocal as the catholic church on these things

I don't know about that, in my church everyone knows I'm gay and it's not a problem, my partner is just as included as she wants to be. I've never heard a CoI minister say anything against gay people, nor indeed treat anyone differently. In fact, in the diocese of Glendalough newsletter a few months ago there was a formal congratulatory note to one of the rectors who had entered into a civil partnership with his long time male partner.

EGAR

gcgirl wrote: »

The Church of Ireland's views on homosexuals don't really differ that much from the catholic church, but the COI are not as vocal as the catholic church on these things

http://ireland.anglican.org/information/85

A Pastoral Letter from the Bishops of the Church of Ireland
September 2003

Society is experiencing the breakdown of national, community and inter-personal relationships on a scale that none of us has experienced before. The problem is made more difficult because there is no universally agreed standard, religious or secular, social or ethical, by which to order our affairs.
One aspect of life in which this brokenness is most personally and painfully experienced is in the realm of human sexuality. While this has become the area of immediate concern, it is equally a matter of concern that the sexualisation of almost every area of life in today’s world has seriously damaged the potential for deep and lasting enrichment that comes from close personal friendships between and within the sexes that do not have any sexual expression. Life today has become greatly impoverished as a result.
In the case of homosexuality, social attitudes range from complete acceptance through indifference to complete rejection. Within the Christian tradition, notwithstanding the pastoral care and compassion shown by many, the attitude has more often than not been one of non-acceptance and at times harsh condemnation. At its worst this has led to the demonising, demeaning and oppression of those who, by inclination or in practice, have found themselves attracted to others of the same sex.
This has meant, among other things, that a wholesome engagement with, and open discussion of, the issues surrounding homosexuality has for too long been side-stepped by the Churches. It is a basic assertion of the Christian faith that God has created all that is, and that in Jesus Christ he has entered fully into, and redeemed, a broken world. Despite that affirmation, it has often been people of no particular religious affiliation, or religious people unsupported or opposed by their own institutions, who have been to the fore in engaging with the issues in a way that should have been dealt with by the Churches.
The current debate within Anglicanism has shown that harsh condemnatory attitudes on both sides in the current debate have not gone away. There is still no unanimity on the question itself across the Churches. In trying to discern the mind of Christ, the bishops believe that the Church of Ireland as a whole ought to address the question prayerfully, humbly, carefully and generously.
The bishops have been engaging in this pastoral issue, both individually and corporately, in a process of consultation and research that began before the Lambeth Conference of 1998, and has been continuing ever since. The fact that little has been said collectively is an indication of the pastoral sensitivities felt by the Bishops, together with the complexity of the issue, and of a considerable range of viewpoints among the bishops themselves.
It is evident that no clear-cut solution will be found independently of Biblical reflection, mature thinking, and patient listening on the part of the Church as a whole. This process must involve prayerful and respectful consideration of views and insights within the Church and beyond it. The traditional Anglican concept of the consensus fidelium would seem to demand this.
Together the bishops:
Affirm the centrality and authority of the Scriptures for all Christian discourse.
Recognise that the interpretation of Scripture is itself an area of divergence among Christians.
Hold that the study of Scripture must also engage with the God-given gifts of the cumulative insights of the Christian tradition, and of human reason.
Remind the Church that since all people have been created in the image and likeness of God, no one should be understood solely, or even primarily, in terms of his or her sexuality.
Encourage an attitude of respect for one another.
In general, four main viewpoints may be identified within the Church of Ireland with regard to same-sex relationships. They are not so much clear-cut, isolated points of view as relative positions on a spectrum, and the views of the members of the present House of Bishops are to be found across this spectrum.
The witness of the Scriptures is consonant with a view that rejects homosexual practice of any kind, and that marriage between a man and a woman in life-long union remains the only appropriate place for sexual relations. This must remain the standard for Christian behaviour.
The witness of the Scriptures is consonant with a more sympathetic attitude to homosexuality than has been traditional, but this would not at present permit any radical change in the Church’s existing stance on the question.
The witness of the Scriptures is consonant with the view that a permanent and committed same-gender relationship which, through its internal mutuality and support brings generosity, creativity and love into the lives of those around, cannot be dismissed by the Church as intrinsically disordered.
The witness of the Scriptures is consonant with the proposition that, in the light of a developing understanding of the nature of humanity and sexuality, the time has arrived for a change in the Church’s traditional position on affirming same-gender relationships.
There is general agreement among the bishops that the mind of the Church must be discerned in relation to sexuality in general. The same requirement also applies to any form of new definition or new pastoral practice in relation to the question of ordination, appointments to positions of leadership, or to the blessing of same-sex unions.
The quest for a common mind is not simply an academic exercise. It has long been tacitly if not formally recognised, that homosexual people have held positions of leadership, ordained and lay, within the Church. Their ministry has frequently been highly imaginative and characterised by great pastoral sensitivity that has deeply enriched the lives of those who have experienced it.
We believe that the search for a modus vivendi for the Church is more important than the assertion of abstract and disembodied decrees. This search should be undertaken regardless of the conclusions to which the exercise may take us all.
A process of understanding of these issues cannot be furthered without overcoming many of the fears and insecurities that surround this discussion. To that end, where there is discussion, it is most effectively undertaken in a safe space, where people are able to let go of their own agendas without betraying their deeply held convictions, where they are prepared to listen sensitively to one another, and where attitudes of condemnation are avoided.
Where it is felt that there is urgency for discussion to commence within the Church of Ireland, experience has shown that it is much more fruitful to spend time on learning how to listen and to grow in understanding than to move rapidly beyond that stage in a desire to reach conclusions as quickly as possible. For that reason, the conversation surrounding sexuality is not suited, at this stage, to large legislative assemblies.
Where there is dialogue within dioceses and between local communities, it should above all include those who are most immediately affected by the discussion. It cannot be sufficiently emphasised that the quest itself carries its own risks, and should not be undertaken lightly. This is an area of life where deeply held views, powerful emotions and the potential for causing great harm hold sway. We may have to learn how or whether we will be able to live peaceably and with integrity with very different viewpoints within the family of the Church and the household of faith.

Doctor DooM

wonderfulname wrote: »

Doctor DooM - the reason I don't address the hierarchy is because that is not what the thread was started about, it was started with reference to laity. If you want to know my views/knowledge on secularisation, equal rights, and the churches part in it all you'll find them plastered all over A&A and Christianity. As for your assertions that a gay catholic is a protestant and being gay and Catholic can be equated with sex before marriage etc., I've already explained my disagreement.

My post was also addressing the laity.

If you, as a lay person, mark yourself down as catholic on the census you are unknowningly granting your assistance to a massively homophobic organisation to directly lobby the government of Ireland to have their outdated and outmoded rules put in place. It doesn't matter if you've rationalised away some form of pseudo catholicism in your head: quite frankly, you should be free to believe whatever you want: But this is the result of your behaviour. The RCC gets to lobby the govt. saying "we represent 84% of Ireland, and we say no gay marriage, and segregation in schools". Among other things.

My initial point was that I am saddened so many people seem to be happy to do this.

floggg

My view on this issue is the same as when somebody comes on here asking to help then figure out if they are straight, gay or bisexual - it doesn't matter what others might think of you or how they label you, it's how you identify yourself that matters.

If somebody wants to identify as catholic, ultimately that's a matter for them. You can disagree with the pope and still be catholic in my book - man is not infallible after all. Religion is meant to be about a relationship with god. If you see yourself as falling into one religion, then who is to say you don't.

MagicMarker

I identify myself as a vegan personally, although I love meat and eat it all the time.

ninty9er

MagicMarker wrote: »

Well how can you be a catholic if you dont believe in catholic doctrine?

How can you be Irish if you don't believe in government policy?