Program advice

LostInDharma

Hi,

Ive just recently started weight lifting. Id be quite fit from doing BJJ and bodyweight exercise. Id train at least 4 times a week. My current program is

Day1
Lateral raises
Overhead press
Tricep work
Press ups

Day2
Leg press
Bicep curl
chin ups
Lat pull down

I do all to 3 reps of 10, with the last rep to failure.

I dont feel Im getting the best out of my time. I am interested in building strength. Is my program any good ? Am I focusing on the right exercises to build strength ?

Thanks!

Burkatron

LostInDharma wrote: »

Hi,

Ive just recently started weight lifting. Id be quite fit from doing BJJ and bodyweight exercise. Id train at least 4 times a week. My current program is

Day1
Lateral raises
Overhead press
Tricep work
Press ups

Day2
Leg press
Bicep curl
chin ups
Lat pull down

I do all to 3 reps of 10, with the last rep to failure.

I dont feel Im getting the best out of my time. I am interested in building strength. Is my program any good ? Am I focusing on the right exercises to build strength ?

Thanks!

No basic Squats (leg presses are not a sub), Deadlifts or benching so your programme is awful ! Overhead press is about the best thing you have in there! Who do you train BJJ with (out of curiosity)? Do you have a strength coach in the gym?

Hanley

Tbh, it's pretty pants. Especially from a sporting perspective.

Here's something I wrote on this topic a while ago...

"Push something, pull something, do something for your legs… and do it 2-4 days per week.

If you just based your workout around those three simple things, you’d probably be more healthy, have increased injury resistance, be more in balance and achieve your goals faster.

It’s simple, it’s VERY quick, and it’s “functional” in the strictest sense of the word.

If you’ve a bit more time… double it. The general structure has been heavily influenced by Mike Boyle and Informed Performance, but it’s a good system and one that stands, so I’m gonna share it.

The Template
Warm up: do 1 corrective hip, and 1 corrective scapulothoracic exercise
A1) Push something (bench, push up, dip)
A2) Pull something (pull up, chin up, lat pulldown)
Legs (squat, split squat, lunge)
C) Core (plank variation)
D1) Push something (press, push press, dumbbell press)
D2) Pull something (inverted row, dumbbell row, cable/band row)
E) Legs (deadlift, stiff leg dead, trap bar dead)
F) Core (rotational, crunching, whatever)
Cool down: do 1 corrective hip, and 1 corrective scapulothoracic exercise, different to the warm up

Short on time? Just drop out D1, D2, E and F. First option should take 45ish minutes, second will take around 90. Do it 2-4x per week. Simples!!

It’s a general program that’ll get you stronger and more “toned”. If you’re looking to do something specific like increase your squat, bench press and deadlift I’d recommend a different avenue (one which you can expect a blog post about very soon!!). But for 90+% of the population, the above is absolutely perfect."

UL_heart_throb

looks pretty good mate, probably the same program helio graice used.

Dermighty

I was in a similar position, wanting to maximise strength gains whilst being economical with my time.

I have a strength and conditioning coach in my gym that I'm friendly enough with so I got some good advice from him, and a program.

What I'm doing at the moment is 4 weeks of lifting heavy, 4-5 reps per set, 2 warm sets and 3 heavy. I do around 4 exercises per session (eg my back day is pull ups, deadlift, tbar row/ dumbbell row superset, though I mix and match (keeping pull ups and deadlifts/rack pulls))

I'm not cycling off lifting heavy and going for about 60% of my max for 12 reps (except deadlifts), basically lighter weight and higher volume.

I'm going to do that for three weeks. When I finish that 3 week cycle I'm going to reduce the reps to 6-8 reps and increase the weight to compensate. When I've done that for three weeks I'm going to reduce to 4-5 reps for four weeks....so on and so on....

The way this was described to me is that the program should be cyclical, so you shouldn't be aiming for max lifts for a long period of time and that cycling through the rep ranges and weights every month or so allows you to shock your body and avoid boredom after adaptation. I find 1RM attempts very challenging (particularly squat) due to a lack of stability in my of my muscle groups (triceps, hamstrings etc).

I started weight training at the end of January, I'd regard myself as reasonably fit otherwise (up to January I was training BJJ 5 days a week), my strength is ok (for reference: 105kg 2RM bench, 160kg 4RM deadlift, 115kg 5RM squat). I'm 6'3" and 102kg. I work at night and get to bed at 3am, waking up at around 7:45 to go to college for the day, I generally train somewhere between 5pm and 8pm.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regards the leg exercise portion of your program:

I'm new to leg training but what I've learned is:

This is the best:



This is good:



This is ****e:

LostInDharma

UL_heart_throb wrote: »

looks pretty good mate, probably the same program helio graice used.

who!

LostInDharma

Hanley wrote: »

The Template
Warm up: do 1 corrective hip, and 1 corrective scapulothoracic exercise
A1) Push something (bench, push up, dip)
A2) Pull something (pull up, chin up, lat pulldown)
Legs (squat, split squat, lunge)
C) Core (plank variation)
D1) Push something (press, push press, dumbbell press)
D2) Pull something (inverted row, dumbbell row, cable/band row)
E) Legs (deadlift, stiff leg dead, trap bar dead)
F) Core (rotational, crunching, whatever)
Cool down: do 1 corrective hip, and 1 corrective scapulothoracic exercise, different to the warm up

Thanks for that, Im going to start to use this and see how I get on.

Stillweak

Are you trying to get stronger so you will be better at bjj?

Im going to get hammered for this but if that is the case you are much better off not doing weights and just going to your bjj class.

If you cant make it to bjj or your club doesnt have classes everyday then lift away.

Hanley

Stillweak wrote: »

Are you trying to get stronger so you will be better at bjj?

Im going to get hammered for this but if that is the case you are much better off not doing weights and just going to your bjj class.

If you cant make it to bjj or your club doesnt have classes everyday then lift away.

Agree. In theory.

I don't know many people with that single minded determination tho. If you want to look better naked, build some strength and a bit of muscle too, and if you just plain enjoy going to the gym, lifting can be a good option.

I don't think anyone's going to lash you for saying what you said because you're correct!

J-Fit

Stillweak wrote: »

Are you trying to get stronger so you will be better at bjj?

Im going to get hammered for this but if that is the case you are much better off not doing weights and just going to your bjj class.

If you cant make it to bjj or your club doesnt have classes everyday then lift away.

I don't think he's correct. Maybe that's why your username is your username?!:)

Burkatron

Stillweak wrote: »

Are you trying to get stronger so you will be better at bjj?

Im going to get hammered for this but if that is the case you are much better off not doing weights and just going to your bjj class.

If you cant make it to bjj or your club doesnt have classes everyday then lift away.

Hanley wrote: »

Agree. In theory.

I don't know many people with that single minded determination tho. If you want to look better naked, build some strength and a bit of muscle too, and if you just plain enjoy going to the gym, lifting can be a good option.

I don't think anyone's going to lash you for saying what you said because you're correct!

My BJJ (when I was actually training ) got much better the stronger I got! I was still **** though so that's not saying much!! :P

Hanley, do you not think you had an advantage when you were starting out being far stronger then the avergae Jitz guy at your size? I've seen it happen plenty of times with guys that have natural mongo strength starting out progress quicker then your average joe walking in for the first time! Yes technique is #1 but if you have the raw strength to control your opponent, technique is far easier to implement!

LostInDharma

I cant train BJJ for awhile so I want to get into some lifting to get stronger and tone up.

Because Im not doing BJJ at the moment I have time to concentrate on lifting.

Im really looking to find a program that works so Im not wasting my time and not making progress

Hanley

Burkatron wrote: »

My BJJ (when I was actually training ) got much better the stronger I got! I was still **** though so that's not saying much!! :P

Hanley, do you not think you had an advantage when you were starting out being far stronger then the avergae Jitz guy at your size? I've seen it happen plenty of times with guys that have natural mongo strength starting out progress quicker then your average joe walking in for the first time! Yes technique is #1 but if you have the raw strength to control your opponent, technique is far easier to implement!

Yeah of course I had a strength advantage against guys my experience, and then I get destroyed by guys with multi-year training experience who are significantly lighter than me. Ergo, skill > strength.

My raw athleticism certainly helps nogi, but stick the gi on and suddenly it all goes to pot. Did you train mostly gi or nogi?

Who gives a sh*t what you can do a year into training. Sure, you might man handle another raw beginner, and if that's all your in it for then great, but if you actually see it as a process, skills acquistion is far more important.

Burkatron

Hanley wrote: »

Yeah of course I had a strength advantage against guys my experience, and then I get destroyed by guys with multi-year training experience who are significantly lighter than me. Ergo, skill > strength.

My raw athleticism certainly helps nogi, but stick the gi on and suddenly it all goes to pot. Did you train mostly gi or nogi?

Who gives a sh*t what you can do a year into training. Sure, you might man handle another raw beginner, and if that's all your in it for then great, but if you actually see it as a process, skills acquistion is far more important.

Mostly Gi! As I openly admit, I am/was (still undecided whether I'll ever go back, I don't miss been broken all the time) awful at BJJ in the 5+ years I was active (I still love it though, just 100000x better at stand up).

This is going from experience as been one of the runts (& ****, plenty of runts who are amazing training there) when I was training with team Ryano, so it's different in my eyes I guess!

Totally agree, Technique/Skill > Strength but as I said I found the stronger I got (which wasn't that strong) the easier it was to make openings & get into positions to use my skills!

Hanley

Burkatron wrote: »

Mostly Gi! As I openly admit, I am/was (still undecided whether I'll ever go back, I don't miss been broken all the time) awful at BJJ in the 5+ years I was active (I still love it though, just 100000x better at stand up).

This is going from experience as been one of the runts (& ****, plenty of runts who are amazing training there) when I was training with team Ryano, so it's different in my eyes I guess!

Totally agree, Technique/Skill > Strength but as I said I found the stronger I got (which wasn't that strong) the easier it was to make openings & get into positions to use my skills!

Hmmm maybe when I actually develop some skill and become a bit more rounded out I'll agree. I'll get back to you in a few years!

Stillweak

"I don't think he's correct. Maybe that's why your username is your username?!"

Maybe I'm so strong I got that username. Like calling a huge guy call John, little John.
Or maybe I'm really weak but able to beat really strong guys at bjj.

OP, being stronger will obviously help so by all means lift weights while you can't go to the bjj club. My point was the one should never miss a technique class in favour of lifting weights.

I'm not sure if j fit does jits but I can tell you he doesn't know much about it.
The best bjj players in Ireland don't spend much time worrying about lifting.

J-Fit

Stillweak wrote: »

"I don't think he's correct. Maybe that's why your username is your username?!"

Maybe I'm so strong I got that username. Like calling a huge guy call John, little John.
Or maybe I'm really weak but able to beat really strong guys at bjj.

OP, being stronger will obviously help so by all means lift weights while you can't go to the bjj club. My point was the one should never miss a technique class in favour of lifting weights.

I'm not sure if j fit does jits but I can tell you he doesn't know much about it.
The best bjj players in Ireland don't spend much time worrying about lifting.

I know enough to know strength is important and plays a role. Maybe you don't know much about strength yourself?

Stillweak

So strength plays a role. Thanks for that.
Stop talking about my strength, it's not a thread about my ability to lift weights.
Now I know you don't do bjj.
How about you ring around and find out who the best Irish bjj players are. Ask them for their strength programme. Maybe you can give them one if you don't agree with what they tell you, since you know enough.

J-Fit

Stillweak wrote: »

So strength plays a role. Thanks for that.
Stop talking about my strength, it's not a thread about my ability to lift weights.
Now I know you don't do bjj.
How about you ring around and find out who the best Irish bjj players are. Ask them for their strength programme. Maybe you can give them one if you don't agree with what they tell you, since you know enough.

Easily riled?

Hanley

Stillweak wrote: »

So strength plays a role. Thanks for that.
Stop talking about my strength, it's not a thread about my ability to lift weights.
Now I know you don't do bjj.
How about you ring around and find out who the best Irish bjj players are. Ask them for their strength programme. Maybe you can give them one if you don't agree with what they tell you, since you know enough.

I actually wouldn't mind knowing Chris Bowe's strength program :D

the drifter

J-Fit & Stillweak....get a room. If ye want to continue having a go at each other take it to PM's

Remember people attack the post not the poster. Personal attacks are a breach of the forum charter and any more of this will result in me getting the ban hammer....and im plenty strong enough to use it!

Barry.Oglesby

This is probably the thing I blog most about and also the thing I get the most stick for.

http://grapplerman.com/2011/07/11/musings-on-how-to-get-fitter-for-bjj-part-deux/
There's a few more in there if you do some hunting around. I have a helper on board now to organise the sections and topics a bit better now.

Also wrote for VPX on the same here.
http://www.vpxsports.com/article-detail/training/the-limiting-factor-in-combat-sports

have a look.

Dathai

Cool article Barry.

Out of interest, you mention 'bullet proofing' the knees. What kind of training do you do to address this? It's something I'm fairly concerned about since I started back at bjj.

Dermighty

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

This is probably the thing I blog most about and also the thing I get the most stick for.

http://grapplerman.com/2011/07/11/musings-on-how-to-get-fitter-for-bjj-part-deux/
There's a few more in there if you do some hunting around. I have a helper on board now to organise the sections and topics a bit better now.

Also wrote for VPX on the same here.
http://www.vpxsports.com/article-detail/training/the-limiting-factor-in-combat-sports

have a look.

I enjoyed reading your blog. Just wondering what you do to strengthen your neck and shoulders. I'm not doing BJJ at the moment so my facilities are myself and a gym.

Mellor

Burkatron wrote: »

Hanley, do you not think you had an advantage when you were starting out being far stronger then the avergae Jitz guy at your size? I've seen it happen plenty of times with guys that have natural mongo strength starting out progress quicker then your average joe walking in for the first time!

Obviously having the strength is an advantage over not having it. Increased strength in isolation is going to help everything physical activity really.
But it probably took years to get to that strength level. Those years would of been better spent on raw technique.

Hanley

Mellor wrote: »

Obviously having the strength is an advantage over not having it. Increased strength in isolation is going to help everything physical activity really.
But it probably took years to get to that strength level. Those years would of been better spent on raw technique.

This.

5 years of PL + 1 year of BJJ, orrrrrrrrrrrrr 6 years of BJJ. Which leaves me better at BJJ? Hmmm.

J-Fit

Hanley wrote: »

This.

5 years of PL + 1 year of BJJ, orrrrrrrrrrrrr 6 years of BJJ. Which leaves me better at BJJ? Hmmm.

How about 6 years of concurrent strength and jujitsu?

Hanley

J-Fit wrote: »

How about 6 years of concurrent strength and jujitsu?

If either took away from the other, then probably pretty mediocre at both.

Incidentally, I did spend 2 months trying to do both. I got frustrated with my strength numbers and was always drained on the mats.

Maybe people just don't understand BJJ, but I'm really shocked that there's such a difficulty understanding how such a skill based sport can be improved by practice over just pumping the guns.

I'm sure there's a post on Barry's blog somewhere about how I'd kill the majority of the blue belts in strength or conditioning workouts, and then on the mats I get manhandled by the same dudes.

Hanley

J-Fit wrote: »

How about 6 years of concurrent strength and jujitsu?

In all seriousness, an no call-y out BS, have you ever trained BJJ? And if you have, have you rolled against good guys (not even really good guys, just good guys). Because as much as I'd like it to, strength gives you sweet FA of an advantage in my experience. Maybe in nogi, but once the gi goes on and grips come into play it's a totally different ball game.

J-Fit

Hanley wrote: »

If either took away from the other, then probably pretty mediocre at both.

I'll answer this post first. The thing is, I see strength training making you a better jujitsu exponent, but jujitsu won't make you better at strength training. Obviously one benefits the other so it can be part of a multi-modal approach.

Hanley wrote: »

Incidentally, I did spend 2 months trying to do both. I got frustrated with my strength numbers and was always drained on the mats.

I spent all last year doing endurance work with some strength thrown in. My numbers and muscle mass went south. My body fat went north. It frustrated the crap out of me. That's human nature. I'm sure if Royce Gracie ever strength trained for jujitsu performance, and I doubt he did, he wouldn't be too hung up on the his deadlift totals. Judging by your background it's natural that you would but that wouldn't be true for everybody.

Hanley wrote: »

Maybe people just don't understand BJJ, but I'm really shocked that there's such a difficulty understanding how such a skill based sport can be improved by practice over just pumping the guns.

I think you'll grant me the benefit of the doubt that pumping the guns is not even in the same ballpark as the strength work I'm talking about.

Hanley wrote: »

I'm sure there's a post on Barry's blog somewhere about how I'd kill the majority of the blue belts in strength or conditioning workouts, and then on the mats I get manhandled by the same dudes.

Didn't you say they are more experienced than you? That makes it unsurprising. How would those guys fare in a lifting meet?

J-Fit

Hanley wrote: »

In all seriousness, an no call-y out BS, have you ever trained BJJ? And if you have, have you rolled against good guys (not even really good guys, just good guys). Because as much as I'd like it to, strength gives you sweet FA of an advantage in my experience. Maybe in nogi, but once the gi goes on and grips come into play it's a totally different ball game.

And now this one. No I've never trained it but it would take a lot of evidence based examples to convince me that strength isn't an influential factor. To what extent, who knows?

That's just how I feel about it based on my interpretation of human physiology/biomechanics.

Having said all that, I'll rarely talk in absolutes. There's clearly guys who don't strength train that are succeeding at jujitsu. It's important to be open minded.

UL_heart_throb

I think you're speaking from an academic perspective really, are you a sports scientist?

Do all high-performance BJJ athletes incorporate some kind of strength training - yes they do (I'm almost sure).

Would a regular joe who trains bjj 3 times a week benefit from an extra strength training day?
yes he would (in my opinion).

These are givens and are not the crux of the discussion.

The real question is -if you could train 4 times a week in bjj or 3 times with 1 s&c class, where would your game be in 12 months with each course.

my answer will always be if you want to get better at bjj spend as much time on the mat as possible. However, in reality, bjj is actually a team sport and you need a couple of guys and some mats to train, where as s&c can be an individual endeavour in 24h gym or home gyms.

If I was hanley's coach I'd tell him to do what he is doing. train as much time on the mat as possible and if you have time in the day for s&c and you really enjoy it, go do that too. but never miss a bjj class to do a s&c class instead.

when you get to purple belt level and you want to start winning competitions, sure, think about getting stronger in a sports specific way.

Dermighty

UL_heart_throb wrote: »

I think you're speaking from an academic perspective really, are you a sports scientist?

Do all high-performance BJJ athletes incorporate some kind of strength training - yes they do (I'm almost sure).

Would a regular joe who trains bjj 3 times a week benefit from an extra strength training day?
yes he would (in my opinion).

These are givens and are not the crux of the discussion.

The real question is -if you could train 4 times a week in bjj or 3 times with 1 s&c class, where would your game be in 12 months with each course.

my answer will always be if you want to get better at bjj spend as much time on the mat as possible. However, in reality, bjj is actually a team sport and you need a couple of guys and some mats to train, where as s&c can be an individual endeavour in 24h gym or home gyms.

If I was hanley's coach I'd tell him to do what he is doing. train as much time on the mat as possible and if you have time in the day for s&c and you really enjoy it, go do that too. but never miss a bjj class to do a s&c class instead.

when you get to purple belt level and you want to start winning competitions, sure, think about getting stronger in a sports specific way.

I can understand your perspective.

However, most of the BJJ practitioners I know that win competitions do no weights whatsoever, in fact some of them have told me that they have gotten stronger and fitter when they stopped doing weights (one of them one of the top nogi grapplers in the country).

When you get to purple belt and you want to win competitions you're in the same boat you're in being at white belt or blue belt or brown belt and wanting to win competitions. Doing a strength and conditioning circuit in addition to BJJ training isn't mandatory at any level.

UL_heart_throb

are you a purple belt?

look at braulio, andre galvao etc?

a lot of bjj guys may say they don't do s&c because they don't do barbell work, but they do a huge amount of bodyweight and core exercises.

Dermighty

UL_heart_throb wrote: »

are you a purple belt?

look at braulio, andre galvao etc?

a lot of bjj guys may say they don't do s&c because they don't do barbell work, but they do a huge amount of bodyweight and core exercises.

Rolling is both a bodyweight, core, aerobic and anaerobic exercise in one, therefore everyone that does BJJ some sort of strength/conditioning whether they like it or not. So it's hard to avoid. Picking up a pound of butter in Tesco uses muscles so is that technically a strength exercise?

As I said, it's not mandatory at any level to do strength work.

If you want a bigger strength and conditioning component to your BJJ then roll with heavier guys! I'm 100kg and rolling with a 115kg guy is more taxing for me than any gym session I've done.

Why ask if I'm a purple belt? There's no real need for that cally-outey stuff. The successful people I've trained with have told me they do no lift weights. I only started lifting weights two months ago and before that I was as strong as any guy I rolled with, I wasn't better than them at bjj, but I had equal or more strength. So in my experience strength won't win you matches unless you're totally evenly matched with someone, which has to be a pretty rare occurance.

Anyway: You can say whatever you want, you seem to be trolling all around boards so I'm going to leave it at that.

Regards Braulio and Andre Galvao, if you're referring to the ADCC then that's not BJJ, it's submission grappling.

UL_heart_throb

Jesus dermot you know nothing.


Braulio and Galvao are both multiple world champions (2009 and 2008) most recently in bJJ respectively.

Dermighty

UL_heart_throb wrote: »

Jesus dermot you know nothing.

I knew there was something not quite right about me!

Also...Why call me Dermot???

Barry.Oglesby

Dathai wrote: »

Out of interest, you mention 'bullet proofing' the knees. What kind of training do you do to address this? It's something I'm fairly concerned about since I started back at bjj.

Nothing sexy. Same as everybody interested in staying in one piece does. Hip and ankle mobility, single and double leg strength work, some specialist band prehab work and some proprioceptive work in warm ups.

I enjoyed reading your blog. Just wondering what you do to strengthen your neck and shoulders. I'm not doing BJJ at the moment so my facilities are myself and a gym.

Isometric band work in the sagittal and frontal axes, generally keeping my back strength up with heavy rows and pull ups, and T spine mobility.

This argument is fairly silly.

"Well I don't know the sport but I assume you need to be strong"
"Well I do know the sport but have never lifted weights and you don't..."
"Well I know a bit about the sport and a bit about weights so I think..."

All of the top guys have a strength programme. You'd be surprised how weak some top guys are, and you'd be surprised how strong others are. I'm in contact and share notes with a lot of BJJ/MMA S&C coaches so I know a lot of the big names' strength numbers. What I can tell you is that some are quite weak lifters but still managing to win and look strong on the mat, some are very, very strong but get beat by weaker guys, and some are strong and win gold. Some are pushing prowlers and using Omega Waves, others are doing crappy circuit training with 2 kettlebells and a swiss ball.

So in other words it's like a lot of sports. That being said, all of those guys who are at the top are from a BJJ culture that isn't just about grappling, but also about looking after yourself, being strong and flexible and looking after yourself. Look at some of the older photos of BJJ from the 30s, 40s and 50s and you'll see parallels with other proponents of physical culture like Sandow, Hackenschmidt etc. So it's fair to say they're fairly strong from wrestling every day, climbing ropes, surfing (for some!), doing bodyweight stuff and so on without ever having set foot inside a gym.

I have this little saying that Strength and Conditioning is a con. It cons guys into thinking that all they have to do to be a good fighter is lift stuff, flip tyres, push sleds and swing kettlebells and they'll be champions. They do this because they see Galvao, St.Pierre etc. doing it and they think they want to be like them. Except they forget that there's 20 years (yes 20 years) of combat sports experience behind the top guys. I have had guys telling me they should be doing more plyometric work who can't throw a punch properly, and because they're thinking about that they never get to hit right. The worst period of BJJ and MMA coaching I've done is when my guys had a full gym at their disposal... coming to me wrecked from pushing prowlers and talking about improving their deadlifts and increasing their power when they couldn't escape mount position.

It's a con. Do some stuff to keep yourself healthy in your knees and back. Stay flexible. Lift for size if you want to look good on the beach, but mostly just get on the mat and roll and drill and try to understand that the reason you are always stuck underneath that other guy is because he's better than you.

UL_heart_throb

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

It's a con. Do some stuff to keep yourself healthy in your knees and back. Stay flexible. Lift for size if you want to look good on the beach, but mostly just get on the mat and roll and drill and try to understand that the reason you are always stuck underneath that other guy is because he's better than you.

well on the other hand, you seem to be talking about guys who's priority is bjj. maybe it is now, i'm not sure how many people that train in any gym in ireland right now, will still be playing the game in 10 years. I would predict, plucking a statistic right out of thin air, that only 10% will still be playing the game regularly. Lots of guys will just go onto other things.

So why not take the time to learn about lifting weights and getting strong, maybe it will detract from your bjj game, but what matter? only 1% of guys ever get into it/good at it so it really matters how good they end up.

specialise in bjj to get good at bjj but generalise in all exercise if you want to. really doesn't matter anyway. it's just a hobby.

Barry.Oglesby

UL_heart_throb wrote: »

well on the other hand, you seem to be talking about guys who's priority is bjj. maybe it is now, i'm not sure how many people that train in any gym in ireland right now, will still be playing the game in 10 years. I would predict, plucking a statistic right out of thin air, that only 10% will still be playing the game regularly. Lots of guys will just go onto other things.

So why not take the time to learn about lifting weights and getting strong, maybe it will detract from your bjj game, but what matter? only 1% of guys ever get into it/good at it so it really matters how good they end up.

specialise in bjj to get good at bjj but generalise in all exercise if you want to. really doesn't matter anyway. it's just a hobby.

So in other words, it's their priority now, but at some future stage it may not be their priority, so it's much better to hedge your bets and don't put 100% into it just in case? To 99% of people playing anything, sport is just a hobby.

So if I was for example, training for a marathon, I should probably get some chess practice in too.

Basically you're saying that unless you're going to be the 1% of elite competitors, don't bother directing all of your efforts towards training in jiu jitsu, because chances are you won't be a champion. Or, to put it another way, trying to improve and better yourself through training is useless unless you're going to win everything.

There are also some mathematical and logical holes in your argument that you might have a little think over too.

UL_heart_throb

Not really how i presented my opinion, but i guess you make a good straw man argument.

Let's present the two individuals side by side.
Person one is into bjj and wants to get good at bjj because bjj is cool.
Person two is into marathons and wants to get good at running marathons because marathons are cool.

Person one wants to do some auxiliary training in strength sports because she wants to develop as an athlete overall and is willing to take the resultant loss in performance in bjj as she splits her time 75-25 between both areas. My rationale is that learning the fundamentals of strength training will play multiple dividends and will stand to her when she realises bjj is boring and wants to do submission grappling or mma or crossfit or parkour. It will also benefit her bjj in some fashion but probably not as much as just doing bjj another session. She will also develop as an athlete by discovering a new discipline.

Person two as you presented it, has an immediate goal of running marathons and improving their time. He wants to go from running in 3hr 30mins to running it in 3 hours. So everything he does is about improving his running and doesn't do anything that will be high value in attaining his goal. So no, chess, weightlifting, bjj, sprinting doesn't offer him anything.

You can swap both and if you said you have a bjj purple belt who wants to win a competition and has that level of focus etc., they can't afford to be a tourist in another sport. In this case, would have to very economical with their time, i think you use the bargain analogy in your blogs or something to that effect.

I just think it's interesting that you seem to be forming your philosophy around the ideal athlete while I am forming mine around the real participant. Fundamentally to me, the only benefit of being a specialist and having tunnel vision about your training is to get as good as possible as quickly as possible (e.g. lets's say, ollie geddes) while the benefits of being a generalist are , as the term implies, much broader and in my current opinion more beneficial.

Barry.Oglesby

UL_heart_throb wrote: »

Not really how i presented my opinion, but i guess you make a good straw man argument.

Let's present the two individuals side by side.
Person one is into bjj and wants to get good at bjj because bjj is cool.
Person two is into marathons and wants to get good at running marathons because marathons are cool.

Person one wants to do some auxiliary training in strength sports because she wants to develop as an athlete overall and is willing to take the resultant loss in performance in bjj as she splits her time 75-25 between both areas. My rationale is that learning the fundamentals of strength training will play multiple dividends and will stand to her when she realises bjj is boring and wants to do submission grappling or mma or crossfit or parkour. It will also benefit her bjj in some fashion but probably not as much as just doing bjj another session. She will also develop as an athlete by discovering a new discipline.

Person two as you presented it, has an immediate goal of running marathons and improving their time. He wants to go from running in 3hr 30mins to running it in 3 hours. So everything he does is about improving his running and doesn't do anything that will be high value in attaining his goal. So no, chess, weightlifting, bjj, sprinting doesn't offer him anything.

You can swap both and if you said you have a bjj purple belt who wants to win a competition and has that level of focus etc., they can't afford to be a tourist in another sport. In this case, would have to very economical with their time, i think you use the bargain analogy in your blogs or something to that effect.

I just think it's interesting that you seem to be forming your philosophy around the ideal athlete while I am forming mine around the real participant. Fundamentally to me, the only benefit of being a specialist and having tunnel vision about your training is to get as good as possible as quickly as possible (e.g. lets's say, ollie geddes) while the benefits of being a generalist are , as the term implies, much broader and in my current opinion more beneficial.

I don't like either person. I always say if you're going to create hypothetical people you should give them some depth. I think Person one should have a substance abuse problem in her past and is battling the demons within through her training, and Person B has a demanding father who expects perfection from him and is using marathon running as catharsis. All of which is as useful as any other hypothetical information.

Your point, to my reading of it, seems to be that if you're only a hobbyist you should be spreading yourself around because you'll probably end up doing something else anyway. Your idea seems to be that since this is so, then strength training would be beneficial. The reason I used the chess example is because it's equally valid, since you have assumed that someone doing BJJ now will move on to another sport. I think it's equally likely that they discover gaming, or chess, or going to church, or any number of things that don't require strength training.

You are arguing, in a thread where someone asked for BJJ training advice, that it's best not to worry too much about what's optimum since you might quit in a few years anyway. You're not actually adding anything to the discussion, you're just being awkward for awkward's sake.

In a nutshell, you are worse than Hitler.

UL_heart_throb

right, you're completely unreasonable and aren't worth further discussion with.

Dermighty

UL_heart_throb wrote: »

right, you're completely unreasonable and aren't worth further discussion with.

If anyone goes to a sport they have never done before they'll see how hard it is. If you've never done BJJ then you will see how useless strength and conditioning are over practice.

Having done a small bit of Muay Thai I noticed how it really worked my body in a different way to BJJ, and it was extremely tiring, in particular my obliques from loading punches and rotating while kicking. The way it gets easier is by repeatedly kicking, not by doing ab work.

I'm a BJJ white belt, I rolled with Fernando Terere at a seminar, and some other high level blackbelts and one noticeable thing they all had in common is that they used as little effort as possible. I had 20 or 30kg on Terere and everything he did was 100% effortless. My strength counted for naught. I know he's a legendary BJJ player but my point is that his economising of his strength combined with thousands of hours of practice and strategising is what makes him great, not his strength and conditioning. When I started BJJ I used all power and no technique, which slowly got a bit better over time as my body learned to use technique instead of muscle to get dominant positions.

I'm a 2 year old child in BJJ terms but I have been very lucky to have some great guys in the club I trained at and some great seminars to go to.

the drifter

Ah here...stop feeding the troll...I'm only going to have to clean up the mess he's gonna make...

Hanley

UL_heart_throb wrote: »

If I was hanley's coach I'd tell him to do what he is doing. train as much time on the mat as possible and if you have time in the day for s&c and you really enjoy it, go do that too. but never miss a bjj class to do a s&c class instead.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

In a nutshell, you are worse than Hitler.

Dermighty wrote: »

If anyone goes to a sport they have never done before they'll see how hard it is. If you've never done BJJ then you will see how useless strength and conditioning are over practice.

I've highlighted the key posts in this thread for everyone's attention.

I'm so happy Godwin's Law was invoked.

Dermighty

In Godwin we trust ™

J-Fit

This thread has become pointless.

the drifter

J-Fit wrote: »

This thread has become pointless.

Thank you for sharing that.

Thread closed.

My tolerance levels for trolls is decreasing.I see a ban hammer in the future.