Level Crossing: Baldoyle Rd vs Merrion Gates

subway

would anyone be aware - is there any valid reason why the level crossing at baldoyle road can remain down for extremely long periods of time (up to 10mins? if there are 2 trains) while the merrion gates drops very soon before a train passes and rarely remians down for 2 trains.

Victor

It may be down to the signalling - at Merrion Road, the signals are likely close together (more trains and more stations), but at Baldoyle Road, they might be far apart.

clunked

I have the bloody misfortune of having to cross this cursed level crossing in order to get to work every day. I thought that there was signalling work done in the area but maybe it hasn't been comissioned yet. The traffic jams are crazy though.

cocoshovel

Nearly every crossing on the Dublin - Waterford line goes down for 10 minutes or more.
Its bloody ridiculous, especially the way it stays closed for a good 1 - 2 mins after the train has passed.
and this is only for 1 train

Hilly Bill

subway wrote: »

would anyone be aware - is there any valid reason why the level crossing at baldoyle road can remain down for extremely long periods of time (up to 10mins? if there are 2 trains) while the merrion gates drops very soon before a train passes and rarely remians down for 2 trains.

It must be the distance between the 2 trains. The barrier may come down after the train leaves howth junction heading to howth and stays down for the train thats just left howth. Its something like that anyway.

Dublin Spotter

Nearly every crossing on the Dublin - Waterford line goes down for 10 minutes or more.
Its bloody ridiculous, especially the way it stays closed for a good 1 - 2 mins after the train has passed.
and this is only for 1 train

I find it hard to beleave that you have being at most of the level crossings. Which ones do stay down for a long time and I will explain why they do.

Victor

Howth-Howth Junction is closed next weekend, presumably for the signalling to be commissioned.

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4556&p=116&n=237

No DART Services between Howth & Howth Junction, Easter Sunday 8th and Easter Monday 9th April: Resignalling Works
30 March 2012

DART Services will be suspended between Howth and Howth Junction/Donaghmede on Easter Sunday 8th and Easter Monday 9th April due to resignalling works.

Customers travelling to and from Howth, Sutton and Bayside can avail of Dublin Bus services 31 and 31B as Dublin Bus will honour valid rail tickets to and from these destinations on these dates. Customers are advised to change to Dublin Bus in the city centre or at Raheny.

All other DART services will operate normally. Please note a Sunday service operates on Easter Monday, 9th April.

Iarnród Éireann apologises for any inconvenience this may cause.

Trevor451

Any news on the proposed overpass at Merrion gates?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76941443

tricky D

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It must be the distance between the 2 trains. The barrier may come down after the train leaves howth junction heading to howth and stays down for the train thats just left howth. Its something like that anyway.

Partly the distance between trains, but also the distance between signals/sensors.

Victor wrote: »

Howth-Howth Junction is closed next weekend, presumably for the signalling to be commissioned.

Spot on. New signals will be up after the weekend and the wait times will drop from the 4/5 minutes to 1/2 mins.

Terrontress

At Lansdowne Road there is a level crossing either side of the platform. The gate for the train to depart the station is down long before the train reaches the platform. Then passengers have to alight and board and then the train takes off. If you are lucky there is nothing coming the other way and you only get caught for 4 minutes. If there's another train within a couple of minutes of the opposite platform then you are there much longer.

The number of people who drive over this crossing when the flashing lights and siren are active is unbelievable. I have also seen knackers flex the gate back and walk on over, doing the same at the other side. I often feel like doing the same!

CIE

I've never seen plans to eliminate the level crossings through Baldoyle or Sutton, so I have to presume that there never have been any. Not like it can't be done; best way would have been elevation of the railway. Most likely though, the way things get planned in Ireland, if this were done then the resulting railway bridges would end up having too low of clearance for those abominable "supertrucks"...

cocoshovel

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

I find it hard to beleave that you have being at most of the level crossings. Which ones do stay down for a long time and I will explain why they do.

Ok, most of the crossings between Waterford and Kilkenny then.

Dublin Spotter

Ok, most of the crossings between Waterford and Kilkenny then

Its becasue the signals are a few milkes but the 2 in mullinavat should be quicker now since the line speed has being increased and the train can clear them faster. The one that connects to the M9 always has loads of cars waiting but with the improved speed it should help.

I have found the worst ones to be north of Ballyhale particually when there is two trains crossing there.

11 crossings between Thomastwon and Waterford is a signiling nightmare as many are so close togetber

cocoshovel

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

Its becasue the signals are a few milkes but the 2 in mullinavat should be quicker now since the line speed has being increased and the train can clear them faster. The one that connects to the M9 always has loads of cars waiting but with the improved speed it should help.

I have found the worst ones to be north of Ballyhale particually when there is two trains crossing there.

Yes the ones in Ballyhale are bad alright. But I still have a 10+ minute wait every evening leaving waterford on the bus.

dowlingm

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

Its becasue the signals are a few milkes but the 2 in mullinavat should be quicker now since the line speed has being increased and the train can clear them faster. The one that connects to the M9 always has loads of cars waiting but with the improved speed it should help.

I have found the worst ones to be north of Ballyhale particually when there is two trains crossing there.

11 crossings between Thomastwon and Waterford is a signiling nightmare as many are so close togetber

DS - how recently was the line speed increased?

Looking at a map of the area it just shows how Ireland can't do anything right - all that money spent on the M9 but nothing to grade separate or divert the road leading to it so the crossing can be closed, still less divert the line through the M9 land take to relieve the road network there and reduce passing 22/071/201 engine noise.

Dublin Spotter

dowlingm read it on RUI earlier today and the poster said it was only a week or so ago.

Yes the ones in Ballyhale are bad alright. But I still have a 10+ minute wait every evening leaving waterford on the bus.

I may not be correct but its to do with some sort of Signal lock in Waterford and that crossing is controlled by Waterford West and the train is restricted to 20mph until it changes from Limerick J track to Dublin track and it mainly 20mph until just before the crossing.

Victor

CIE wrote: »

I've never seen plans to eliminate the level crossings through Baldoyle or Sutton, so I have to presume that there never have been any. Not like it can't be done; best way would have been elevation of the railway. Most likely though, the way things get planned in Ireland, if this were done then the resulting railway bridges would end up having too low of clearance for those abominable "supertrucks"...

There are three level crossings, which would mean raising the railway for about 850 metres. To facilitate high vehicles, this would mean raising the track bed by about 6.5-7 metres. At a 2% slope, this would mean adding another 650-700 metres in the two ramps. Given the proximity of the sea and access to properties, it would be difficult to lower the roads. The railway would need to close for 1-2 years. Ultimately, it would cost too much for the benefit it would deliver.

Doing it at somewhere like Merrion Gates would at least deliver much more benefit. Not allowing trucks and double deck buses at all crossings would reduce the height differential needed, but might not comply with standards.

dowlingm

DS - thanks, saw it just now.

subway

no idea what half of this thread is about. i hope you're all happy :pac:

havent got stuck the baldoyle level crossing this week so not sure if the timings have changed or not

sporty56

EXTRACT FROM LETTER TO IRISH RAIL IN APRIL 2011 RE EXTRAORDINARY LONG BARRIER CLOSURE TIMES ON DART.

During late 80’s I spent a few hours at Westland Row stand by panel and at CTC in Amiens Street. It was a most interesting and informative afternoon. I raised the issue of level crossing times during my time there.

The rational behind level crossing timings was explained and stated to be far from ideal but other options were restrained by a number of factors like.

• Accommodating NET Ammonia trains to Shelton Abbey.
• Accommodating palletised fertiliser trains from Shelton Abbey.
• Accommodating palletised cement trains to Wexford.
• Accommodating locomotive hauled vacuum braked passenger trains.
• That railway operation in Ireland was based on British practices.

Although the DART crossings now are no longer used by the train types mentioned above with exception of the odd engineers train or steam excursion I am unaware of any reduction in crossing closure times.

I’m aware that that level crossing closure times in the UK are now considerably shorter than years ago. Taking Sydney Parade as an example, I’ve recently observed operations at several similar stations in UK at closure times would typically be between 50 secs for one train and 130 secs for two trains. I’ve seen Italian, French and Norwegian crossings operate even quicker. Barrier closure times three times longer are typical at Sydney Parade and it’s much worse at Serpentine Ave.

REPLY FROM IRISH RAIL

I refer to your letter of the 24th April 2011 querying the closure time of crossings in the Dublin area.

Many factors are taking into account when deciding how the railway and public are protected from each other when they intersect at grade. The number of factors and their degree of emphasis will vary from country to country depending on signalling philosophies and degree of public compliance. Iarnród Éireann crossings comply with the Railway Safety Commission (Ireland’s national safety authority for railways) Level Crossing guidelines.

The guidelines stipulate that in a built up area where there is a high density of heavy rail and road traffic that a crossing must be fully closed off from the road and that it is detected so in the signalling system before a train is permitted to pass over it.

When designing the level crossings and signalling from Lansdowne Road to Merrion Road in 1982/3, some compromises were made to minimise the closure times at Merrion Road (affecting Sydney Parade) , Lansdowne Road and Sandymount (affecting Serpentine). Level crossing closures are initiated by a train at a point that will enable the crossing to be fully down and the protecting signals to show the least restrictive aspects to a train so that it can get through the crossing in the quickest time. Note there is no advantage to the road user in the train getting more restrictive signalling through the crossing as while the initiation will be nearer the crossing , the train will have to travel more slowly giving the same closure time approximately

The length of closure of depends on a number of things. Using Sydney Parade as an example:-
· The shortest closure is when there is only one train and it is going towards Bray (this is typically 1 ½ to 2 minutes ie the length of time it takes the train to travel from Sandymount station to Sydney Parade). A train going towards the City Centre has its closure extended because of the train stopping at Sydney Parade station.
· The longest closure will occur when there is a train approaching form both directions and before the first train clears the crossing the second train initiates its closure request. This type of closure has lasted up to 7 minutes

Peak hour train services occur during rush hour traffic increasing the number of closures per hour given less opening time to road users. The crossing is designed to rise and stay up for a minimum of 20 seconds between two trains travelling in the one direction. This avoids the crossing being down for extended periods of time due the build up of trains after a fault or a match in Lansdowne Road.

It is difficult for me to comment on the examples you quoted in Europe without more details, e.g. how similar were the crossings to Sydney Parade? But I would make the following comments.

· I would suggest that shortest closure length above is similar to the closure in the UK. Our level crossing and signalling are very similar to that of UK, so it is difficult for me to see how they would operate a crossing in a similar environment as Sydney Parade any differently.
· Some European countries operate automatic half barrier crossing without full signal protection in built-up areas, relying on the road user complying fully with the rules of the road and tolerate the consequences of public non-compliance. (Iarnród Éireann and the Railway Safety Commission strive for zero number of accidents between trains and road users at public level crossings)
· The LUAS is a light rail system which comes under a different set of guidelines from the RSC. They are permitted to operate on the public road and to control its movements using traffic lights signals only. Iarnród Éireann operates a heavy rail system which due to braking characteristics requires advance warning signals to come to a stop at a signal and that the public are fenced off from its operation. An exception has been made to this in certain circumstances where the train is limited to 5 mph speed.
· Prior to DART the frequency of service was no more than 50% of the DART service reducing the occurrence of long closures due to two trains.

I regret I am unable to provide you with a more positive response. The only solace I can offer you is that there will be an improvement in crossing closures times for Serpentine and Lansdowne Road for trains going towards Bray when the re-signalling of Pearse area is completed at the end of 2012. END

My comment on Irish Rail’s reply is that reading between the lines is that Irish Rail want to reduce DART barrier closure times in line with best practice in Europe and UK. However their hands are tied by the Railway Safety Commission(RSC) who don’t seem(or want to know ?) to realise that procedures in UK on rail barrier closures have been revised since BR days. I am of the opinion that the RSC is not particularly rich on personnel with good practical railway experience coupled with common sense.

They don’t seem to realise that DART trains are capable of stopping pretty quickly taking not much more distance than a LUAS at similar speed. I know that DARTs can also be stopped by the Fat Controller if needs be. Yet there seems no difficulty allowing LUAS to approach very busy traffic junctions and stop at red lights if required without men with red flags while DART is deemed to require 1000s of metres and several minutes to stop by RSC.

I feel that Irish Rail would be delighted if RSC were introduced to 2012.
Any comments ??
Sporty

PS Would anybody have the timing details of how trains cross through the level crossing immediately South of Wexford station where there are no barriers ?

Victor

The RSC merely approves (or not) the safety case produced by Irish Rail, so it isn't an exclusively RSC thing.

dowlingm

Sporty - Wexford is a tramway (5mph) so I guess the rules are a bit different?

markpb

sporty56 wrote: »

Yet there seems no difficulty allowing LUAS to approach very busy traffic junctions and stop at red lights if required without men with red flags while DART is deemed to require 1000s of metres and several minutes to stop by RSC.

I'm no expert but I have a feeling that the impact damage done to a driver, passenger or pedestrian by a DART would be significantly worse than what would be done by a Luas tram at the same speed. Apart from the shape of the front of both, a DART train is 4 times heavier than a Citadis tram.

tricky D

Well today was kind of interesting. Waited 20 minutes at Baldoyle Road after skipping Sutton Station as the traffic was backed up to Sutton Cross. Barriers eventually took about 2 minutes to rise as if they needed something like a walking stick equivalent. IE workers were almost pushing them up.

It's been a bit like this for the last few days, with the DART crawling to Howth Junction, then making up time after. My IE mate reckons its a testing phase. It better be, or else I've 3/4 more miles to get to the other side.

Losty Dublin

There was new signaling installed on the Howth line so perhaps there are a few minor issues to level out at the crossing you mention.

tricky D

Already noted in my post #9

A Dub in Glasgo

sporty56

The RSC guidance on level crossings was the same as applied to Britain. In fact, the document was fully customised from the British version about 8 years ago with the full agreement of the HMRI (now ORR). You can find the guidance in the following link - document RSC-G-006-B

http://www.rsc.ie/publications/guidelines-for-the-design-of-railway-infrastructure-rolling-stock-gdrirs/

The ORR in Britain has now updated that guidance 8 months ago. Maybe the RSC are updating their document to suit? I have not read the updated guidance and I do not know if the differences made help your observations.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1567

However, when looking at level crossings, you have got to look at all the rolling stock that travel through it before deciding on a course of action. Full crossings are linked to the signalling system therefore it is inherently more expensive to change that. If the crossing is an AHB type of arrangement, it is generally independent of the signalling system (they will have their own local strike in/out system)

highdef

Although slightly off the main topic, has the ridiculous speed limit between Bayside and Howth junction been lifted with the completion of the signalling works? I think it's a 30mph limit and from what I have been told in the past (by an uncle who used to be a DART driver), the limit was imposed so that noise from the old AEC and class 201 engines would not be so loud for the houses adjacent to the railway line. Many a time, I would wait for a DART to the city at Bayside....the next signal between Bayside with change to amber and then to green but when I got on the DART, it would ALWAYS trundle along at lowish speed.

Going the other way from Howth junction, the signal there would always be amber due to the level crossing at Baldoyle Road.....there was the signal at Howth Junction itself and the next one was not till just after Bayside station. I think the one after was at Sutton. This meant that HJ could only get an amber because if it had a green, Bayside would have to have an amber and therefore the Baldoyle Road (and possibly Sutton) gates would have to be already down. So instead, HJ would only be amber, the DART would trundle along at the limit for an amber light. Then as it approached Bayside, the signal after may switch to amber but sometimes would stay at red until the train crawled to the platform. The odd time, it would switch to green before departure which usually meant a fairly high speed dash to Sutton.

So, with the additional signals in place, will a Howth bound DART leaving HJ get a green (when applicable) and also be allowed to travel at higher speed than previously on this stretch of track?

sporty56

Don't have any video of level crossing times I noted myself but here's one off U tube from UK. Barriers close road at 50 sec and open again at 1.35. Rolling stock is vacuum braked. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWW-x7WwBog&feature=relmfu

A Dub in Glasgo

That is an AHB and is a lot faster operation than a full barrier, you are not comparing like for like

sporty56

Its a road closure and I don't think pedestrians, pram pushers, cyclists and motorists are too interested in what type of obstruction is causing the ridiculous delay at DART crossings. For whatever reason DART barrier closure times are two to four times longer that in UK, France, Germany, Norway and Italy. That list may be longer but they are examples I've seen and timed myself and where some of the rolling stock would not have anything like braking performance of a DART unit.

As I mentioned previously, I think the writer of Irish Rail letter would be delighted to see DART brought into line with best practice elsewhere.