Why is Traveller disadvantage not a mainstream concern?

gizmo555

later12 wrote: »

Is that a verbatim quote? Do you have a link?

I already posted the quote and link seven pages back in the thread.

glic71rods46t0

gizmo555 wrote: »

I already posted the quote and link seven pages back in the thread.

maybe he doesn't police the thread as well as I thought:D

later12

gizmo555 wrote: »

I already posted the quote and link seven pages back in the thread.

The one about the Habitual Residence condition? I can appreciate PP's broad concerns but I would disagree with the suggestion that the HRC be abrogated or replaced with something else. It's important that welfare and support services are aware of where their customers are living.

However, you have mis-stated the case here. You said "you have the travellers' own spokespeople making statements to the effect that it is no longer possible to pursue the traveller lifestyle without funding from social welfare".

Now leaving aside the fact that travellers do not have "spokespersons", nobody said any such thing.

Pavee Point were concerned about the application of the HRC with respect to poverty. They certainly, certainly did not say that social welfare is some sort of inherent requirement of travellers' lives. That is simply untrue.

You are making it up.

gizmo555

later12 wrote: »

Pavee Point were concerned about the application of the HRC with respect to poverty. They certainly, certainly did not say that social welfare is some sort of inherent requirement of travellers' lives. That is simply untrue.

You are making it up.

No, I'm not:

Pavee Point wrote:

These restrictions [on social welfare claims by travellers with no fixed address] simply make it impossible for Travellers to travel across the island and place Roma and Travellers in destitution.

Whether or not you agree with her, I don't see what other construction you can put on this Pavee Point spokeswoman's claim.

later12

She's saying it makes it impossible for those in receipt of social welfare to travel. Perhaps it does, but that's not something I'd be concerned about, nor would I worry that this is deleterious to the traveller lifestyle, since most travellers appear not to be strictly nomadic.

That's an entirely different thing to what you claimed,which was that she said "it is no longer possible to pursue the traveller lifestyle without funding from social welfare". While constantly travelling is difficult - impossible even - nobody said the lifestyle as a whole is dependent on social welfare.

glic71rods46t0

later12 wrote: »

She's saying it makes it impossible for those in receipt of social welfare to travel. Perhaps it does, but that's not something I'd be concerned about, nor would I worry that this is deleterious to the traveller lifestyle, since most travellers appear not to be strictly nomadic.

Travellers claim to be culturally nomadic - so the freedom to travel around the country seems to be a central part of their cultural identity.
You might not be concerned with this - but travellers are.
You dismiss other points of view because they don't conform with your view of travellers - yet your view of travellers is at odds with pavee point - go figure:eek:

gizmo555

That's your interpretation - I wouldn't agree with it.

Be that as it may, it's clear travellers have a massively higher social welfare dependency rate than the settled population. Have a look at this research report from 2008 which found unemployment rates for travellers in Blanchardstown which exceeded 82%.

Monty Burnz

southsiderosie wrote: »

The problem with this is that without statistics, this doesn't tell us anything about this being a Traveller problem or a general social problem. Having seen appalling public disorderly and thuggish behavior in Dublin among what were presumably non-Traveller populations, I would want to see some data on actual differences between Traveller and non-Traveller populations in that regard before coming to any conclusions.

This is just silly, excessively PC stuff that actually harms the point you are trying to make. It may be confirmation bias, but most of the time when I see a story about outrageous riotous behaviour in public, it transpires that the culprits (and victims) are travellers.

I say 'it may be' confirmation bias. I'm pretty confident it's not. The incidence of serious criminal behaviour amongst travellers dwarfs that of the 'settled' population. This is reflected (but perhaps inadequately) in the prison population.

southsiderosie

Monty Burnz wrote: »

This is just silly, excessively PC stuff that actually harms the point you are trying to make. It may be confirmation bias, but most of the time when I see a story about outrageous riotous behaviour in public, it transpires that the culprits (and victims) are travellers.

I say 'it may be' confirmation bias. I'm pretty confident it's not. The incidence of serious criminal behaviour amongst travellers dwarfs that of the 'settled' population. This is reflected (but perhaps inadequately) in the prison population.

Then talk about the prison population or actual crime statistics - they shouldn't be hard to find. It's not politically correct to expect some kind of support for a position in a discussion forum. This is not Liveline.

Monty Burnz

southsiderosie wrote: »

Then talk about the prison population or actual crime statistics - they shouldn't be hard to find. It's not politically correct to expect some kind of support for a position in a discussion forum. This is not Liveline.

Fair enough. According to this study, the IPS reckons that 8.5% of male prisoners and 16.3% of female prisoners in 2008 were travellers.

This may be related to their outrageous levels of violent disorder and thievery. Perhaps aspects of traveller culture we could all do without?

Monty Burnz

Here's a new example of the type of thing I was referring to earlier: the first thing I thought when I read this was 'Travellers again'. There is no indication in the text that the people involved are travellers. Is this their fault, or mine?

A MAN was in a critical condition in hospital last night after he was attacked with a samurai sword following an argument in a rural pub.

Martin Butler, in his early 50s, suffered severe head injuries following the horrific assault in Cappawhite, Co Tipperary, yesterday morning.

As part of follow-up investigations, gardai have arrested eight men -- including the chief suspect for the assault.

Mr Butler -- who works as a volunteer at the local resource centre -- had been playing cards with five other people in Coughlan's bar in the village on Thursday night.

The Irish Independent has learned that another group of men came in and a quarrel broke out between the two parties.

The altercation continued out on to the street around 12.30am and one of the men -- belonging to the second group that entered the pub -- ran into a nearby home and returned armed with a samurai sword.

later12

gizmo555 wrote: »

it's clear travellers have a massively higher social welfare dependency rate than the settled population.

That is absolutely clear, that is not in any doubt whatever. I have been saying it from the beginning of the thread. It has been repeated so many times that it has simply become noise. It seems that everyone wants to re-state the problem, and then talk down any credible solution.

It's bizarre. As soon as i say I agree with welfare reform, the first reaction to come back quoting unemployment statistics at me. I genuinely don't get this.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Fair enough. According to this study, the IPS reckons that 8.5% of male prisoners and 16.3% of female prisoners in 2008 were travellers.

This may be related to their outrageous levels of violent disorder and thievery. Perhaps aspects of traveller culture we could all do without?

Fair enough. According to this report the [US Bureau of Justice Statistics] reckons that [40%] of [prisoners] in 2009 were [black].

This may be related to their outrageous levels of violent disorder and thievery. Perhaps aspects of [black] culture we could all do without?

__________________________________________________________

Does this seem any more acceptable a thing to say?

murphaph

later12 wrote: »

That is absolutely clear, that is not in any doubt whatever. I have been saying it from the beginning of the thread. It has been repeated so many times that it has simply become noise. It seems that everyone wants to re-state the problem, and then talk down any credible solution.

It's bizarre. As soon as i say I agree with welfare reform, the first reaction to come back quoting unemployment statistics at me. I genuinely don't get this.

I think we all know the solution-an end to indefinite welfare for all, including travelers.

Monty Burnz

later12 wrote: »

Fair enough. According to this report the [US Bureau of Justice Statistics] reckons that [40%] of [prisoners] in 2009 were [black].

This may be related to their outrageous levels of violent disorder and thievery. Perhaps aspects of [black] culture we could all do without?

__________________________________________________________

Does this seem any more acceptable a thing to say?

Well one refers to a racial group who were pulled from their native continent and enslaved in an alien country where they are a visible minority.

Travellers are no different from other Irish people beyond the choices they make with regard to work and education. Do you think you would be able to pick a traveller out of a line-up of college graduates? Do you think you could pick out the black guy?

Additionally, you seem to be labouring under the illusion that there is a 'black culture' where everybody has the same beliefs and aspirations. This is nonsense. I imagine middle-class black people like Barack Obama have as little in common with 'gangster' culture as you or I do.

So your comparison is a little bit...specious.

In addition, I'm still hoping for someone to elucidate the main characteristics of 'traveller culture'.

later12

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well one refers to a racial group who were pulled from their native continent and enslaved in an alien country where they are a visible minority.

There are blacks in US prisons who were pulled from their native continents and enslaved? That's outrageous.

I presume you mean that blacks have been handed a raw deal down the generations. That's true. It suggests that a culture of poverty and discrimination and lack of education can help to establish these dangerous trends.

That's the only culture I'm particularly interested in - the culture of educational and financial poverty and a level of exclusion which is perpetuated both by travellers and the settled community.

But it is completely irrational of you to speak about travellers as you have done in the above quote, and then whitewash any extrapolation of that statement onto other identifiable groups in society when it emerges that their imprisonment statistics are even worse.

Monty Burnz

later12 wrote: »

There are blacks in US prisons who were pulled from their native continents and enslaved? That's outrageous.

Wocka wocka.

later12 wrote: »

I presume you mean that blacks have been handed a raw deal down the generations. That's true. It suggests that a culture of poverty and discrimination and lack of education can help to establish these dangerous trends.

And yet - and this is the bit you are desperately ignoring - this group which has suffered far, far worse than anything the Irish travellers ever did still manages to produce a large educated middle class and a president of the USA. I can see why it's important to ignore this as it would appear to hole your position below the waterline.

later12 wrote: »

That's the only culture I'm particularly interested in - the culture of educational and financial poverty and a level of exclusion which is perpetuated both by travellers and the settled community.

Who exactly is excluding travellers from the educational system? Themselves. Where does the solution lie? Themselves. Who should feel bad about their terrible level of educational attainment? Themselves.

later12 wrote: »

But it is completely irrational of you to speak about travellers as you have done in the above quote, and then whitewash any extrapolation of that statement onto other identifiable groups in society when it emerges that their imprisonment statistics are even worse.

Extrapolation is fine if it makes sense. Unfortunately, you have to ignore the black middle class and the high achievements of black people in the USA in order for it to make sense.

On another point, the complete absence of any traveller voices on Boards.ie is quite striking.

gizmo555

later12 wrote: »

That is absolutely clear, that is not in any doubt whatever. I have been saying it from the beginning of the thread. It has been repeated so many times that it has simply become noise. It seems that everyone wants to re-state the problem, and then talk down any credible solution.

What I am highlighting is that it has got to the point that social welfare dependency is a defining characteristic of traveller culture - much more so than actually travelling. Actually, if you delve into the Blanchardstown report that 82% unemployment level would have been even higher, if those on training or community schemes were counted. To that extent these figures confirm the implication of the statement by the Pavee Point spokeswoman, that the traveller culture and lifestyle as it now stands couldn't exist without and is inseparable from massive state subvention via the social welfare system.

And as we saw in the census figures released this week, only 16% of the so-called "travellers" enumerated travel . . .

gizmo555

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And yet - and this is the bit you are desperately ignoring - this group which has suffered far, far worse than anything the Irish travellers ever did still manages to produce a large educated middle class and a president of the USA.

Not to mention a Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, and National Security Adviser, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Secretary of State, Colin Powell.

murphaph

Comparing US blacks to travelers does US blacks a great disservice actually. Travelers are a much more homogeneous group than US blacks. Black people share a skin colour, whereas travelers share a way of life.

AlekSmart

later12 wrote: »

There are blacks in US prisons who were pulled from their native continents and enslaved? That's outrageous.

I presume you mean that blacks have been handed a raw deal down the generations. That's true. It suggests that a culture of poverty and discrimination and lack of education can help to establish these dangerous trends.

That's the only culture I'm particularly interested in - the culture of educational and financial poverty and a level of exclusion which is perpetuated both by travellers and the settled community.

But it is completely irrational of you to speak about travellers as you have done in the above quote, and then whitewash any extrapolation of that statement onto other identifiable groups in society when it emerges that their imprisonment statistics are even worse.

As a matter of the vaguest interest,Later12,is there any grouping in your worldview who have NOT been handed a raw-deal by whatever "Mainstream" society they exist within ?

I ask,only because I get a sensation of you expecting people from "Mainstream" society to rush forward in agreement with your viewpoint,and you appear somewhat disappointed that folks then turn up holding far more pragmatic views of Traveller "disadvantage",if that be what it is.....:o

flutered

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Here's a new example of the type of thing I was referring to earlier: the first thing I thought when I read this was 'Travellers again'. There is no indication in the text that the people involved are travellers. Is this their fault, or mine?

according to reports the culprit has many previous criminal convictions and not long released from jail

Vizzy

murphaph wrote: »

Comparing US blacks to travelers does US blacks a great disservice actually. Travelers are a much more homogeneous group than US blacks. Black people share a skin colour, whereas travelers share a way of life.

But travellers also share a skin thickness.

later12

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And yet - and this is the bit you are desperately ignoring - this group which has suffered far, far worse than anything the Irish travellers ever did still manages to produce a large educated middle class and a president of the USA. I can see why it's important to ignore this as it would appear to hole your position below the waterline.

No that's not the point. You did not bring up the apparent absence of a middle class travelling population in your post. You merely suggested that the prison statistics could be reflective of travellers' "outrageous levels of violent disorder and thievery". What I am asking you is why black prisoners' statistics might not be reflective out their ""outrageous levels of violent disorder and thievery"?

Your ignoratio elenchi is completely irrational in this context.And if you do wish to refer to the black "middle classes" it might be worth your while considering that there are a lot more blacks than travellers as a proportion of the population. Blacks are 25 times more common in the USA than travellers are in Ireland. Of course, in that context, there is going to be more heterogeneity within their population. However:

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2011/07/26/wealth-gaps-rise-to-record-highs-between-whites-blacks-hispanics/

The median wealth of white households is 20 times that of black households and 18 times that of Hispanic households, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of newly available government data from 2009.

This is all relatively beside the point, because what I am really interested in is why you would not apply the same argument to black incarcerated prisoners as you would to travellers in prison, both of whom are disproportionately over-represented.

seavill

K-9 wrote: »

Any positive experiences, as a teacher? We are all aware of the negatives.

Yes plenty positive experiences as a teacher with travellers. I was not giving negative experiences to slag off travellers. We were discussing the opportunities afforded to traveller children within the school system and some of my point being that parents are a detriment to some of these opportunities.

I really do not get the point of your question. Obviously some people including the OP are not all aware of everything like you hence my explanation of the extras given to sections of our society.

seavill

later12 wrote: »

I was responding to the point where you said "...the levels of opportunity are down to choices made by traveller parents[...]
If I decided tomorrow to live on the side of the road in a caravan with my children I am not giving them the same level of opportunity...". I presumed you were arguing that this is not society's fault, but the fault of the travellers' alone.

As I said if I decide to live on the side of the road tomorrow that is my choice not societies fault in any why shape or form. How is it society's fault at all if that is my choice or the choice of my parents?

That may be the case in a small number of specific respects. However, if you read the ESRI report or the 2008 Maitre report, I really do think it's clear that the aggregate result is that traveller children are more disadvantaged than settled children or even more disadvantaged than other minorities.

I would not consider these to be a small number of specifics. I have pointed out where there are huge advantages afforded to travellers that are not afforded to any other members of the settled community. I am not saying they are right or wrong I was just making a point.
As foreign children get extra help with their English if needed and granted by the department.
Children with learning difficulties get extra help when granted by the department also.
Children with disabilities can get the help of an SNA if granted.
There are extra opportunities afforded to many within the system, but to say that they are disadvantaged in this respect to other parts of the community at large is an untruth

I mean if I may use an analogy, your statement is a bit like suggesting that an intellectually disabled child has more opportunities than an otherwise healthy child because he might get special support at school. You're really ignoring the bigger picture.

I do not see how I am ignoring the bigger picture here. Could you please explain?
Yes that child with the disability is disadvantaged at birth through something totally outside of anyone's control, however is given extra support when needed. This extra support is not available to others so they are given a greater opportunity in some respects to achieve.
What is to say that my son should not be given extra support to help him achieve more that I would be able to get him to achieve due to my history. My son will not get this extra support without me paying for it. So in reality some children within my child's class have a greater opportunity than he does.

I am not saying this is wrong in any respect but to say that everyone is treated evenly in terms of resources is completely wrong.

a

Monty Burnz

later12 wrote: »

This is all relatively beside the point, because what I am really interested in is why you would not apply the same argument to black incarcerated prisoners as you would to travellers in prison, both of whom are disproportionately over-represented.

Because there is no such thing as a 'black culture'. Another point you seem desperate to avoid.

later12

There is no such thing as "black culture"? Really? There are a lot of people who would disagree with you.

http://books.google.ie/books?hl=en&lr=&id=mqXlA7e4VN8C&oi=fnd&pg=PA36&dq=%22african+american+culture%22&ots=qxb_y2lQlI&sig=yGYRuOvDKWlaygrnClUfmqJbUgs&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22african%20american%20culture%22&f=false
http://www.sciway.net/afam/culture.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20080527050107/http://www.gwu.edu/~e73afram/ag-am-mp.html

Nevertheless, you are not answering the question. The dreadful poverty (particularly urban poverty), crime and incarceration statistics for blacks in the USA are there for all to see, and have been cited above.

So why do you accuse travellers of "outrageous levels of violent disorder and thievery" and not African Americans, who also have extraordinarily high income and incarceration disparities relative to white Americans.

AlekSmart

later12 wrote: »

Nevertheless, you are not answering the question. The dreadful poverty (particularly urban poverty), crime and incarceration statistics for blacks in the USA are there for all to see, and have been cited above.

So why do you accuse travellers of "outrageous levels of violent disorder and thievery" and not African Americans, who also have extraordinarily high income and incarceration disparities relative to white Americans.

But there's no need to answer any question regarding Black (or any othe hue) Americans as that is nothing to do with the OP.

"Mainstream" Ireland largely has little everyday interaction with Americans,particularly Black ones and it certainly does not contribute any of it's scarce tax-euro's towards the furthering of their "culture".

The dreadful hard-nosed,uncaring,contributing classes however,DO contribute a substantial amount of their tax-euro towards the Traveller lifestyle,largely without having any say in the matter.

Monty Burnz

later12 wrote: »

There is no such thing as "black culture"? Really? There are a lot of people who would disagree with you.

I'm sure there are. There are also a lot of people who think the world was created in 7 days and have written books to 'prove' it. They are wrong too.

later12 wrote: »

Nevertheless, you are not answering the question. The dreadful poverty (particularly urban poverty), crime and incarceration statistics for blacks in the USA are there for all to see, and have been cited above.

So why do you accuse travellers of "outrageous levels of violent disorder and thievery" and not African Americans, who also have extraordinarily high income and incarceration disparities relative to white Americans.

Once again I will answer that it is an appropriate criticism of a culture. 'Black people' are not a culture. I have answered it repeatedly and I am now beginning to think you are trolling.

later12

But I'm not arguing that black people are a culture. And I was under the impression that you thought travellers did not have a "culture" either.

Again, I am curious as to why you apply this accusation of "outrageous levels of violent disorder and thievery" to travellers based on their incarceration statistics, but not to blacks in the US?

This seems like a very straightforward question.