Last gasp attempt to reopen Waterford/Rosslare Railway

Judgement Day

Unusually - for me - I would like to draw peoples attention to this forthcoming meeting without further comment. I won't be there as Wellington Bridge is impossible to get to and from by public transport at that time of day!

Louche Lad

Excellent. Who's called the meeting?

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

Unusually - for me - I would like to draw peoples attention to this forthcoming meeting without further comment. I won't be there as Wellington Bridge is impossible to get to and from by public transport at that time of day!

Why don't you drive there, same way as all of those people who would use the railway otherwise if, if if, if etc

Judgement Day

Louche Lad wrote: »

Excellent. Who's called the meeting?

http://swifft.wordpress.com/

Judgement Day

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Why don't you drive there, same way as all of those people who would use the railway otherwise if, if if, if etc

Well first I'd have to sit my test (having only ever had a provisional licence), then I would have to save my Euros to buy a car - this might take quite a time thanks to my previous railway experiences - and by then I suspect the meeting will be over.

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

Well first I'd have to sit my test (having only ever had a provisional licence), then I have to save my Euros to buy a car - this might take quite a time thanks to my previous railway experiences - and by then I suspect the meeting will be over.

That's just nit picking and semantics

n97 mini

I somehow get the feeling that the vast majority of the people of South Wexford couldn't give a shite about the Rosslare Waterford line. Sure it'd be nice, but no-one's ever going to use it.

Judgement Day

n97 mini wrote: »

I somehow get the feeling that the vast majority of the people of South Wexford couldn't give a shite about the Rosslare Waterford line. Sure it'd be nice, but no-one's ever going to use it.

That's right - crap marketing and decades of unusable timetables would have nothing to do with it of course. You have obviously given this a lot of thought. Incidentally, the line was, theoretically, a link with the port of Rosslare - a gateway to the rest of the country and the local commuter service was only ever a tiny part of the picture.

n97 mini

Judgement Day wrote: »

That's right - crap marketing and decades of unusable timetables would have nothing to do with it of course. You have obviously given this a lot of thought.

Not really, I just know several people in South Wexford and none of them give a shite about a railway that doesn't go anywhere useful to them.

Judgement Day wrote: »

Incidentally, the line was, theoretically, a link with the port of Rosslare - a gateway to the rest of the country and the local commuter service was only ever a tiny part of the picture.

Yes, but you do know that the station has been moved twice and is no nowhere near the port. And we keep getting told that ash clouds aside there is no foot traffic worth talking about.

foggy_lad

Judgement Day wrote: »

That's right - crap marketing and decades of unusable timetables would have nothing to do with it of course. You have obviously given this a lot of thought. Incidentally, the line was, theoretically, a link with the port of Rosslare - a gateway to the rest of the country and the local commuter service was only ever a tiny part of the picture.

Much faster buses and cheaper to run and more flexible and routes can be changed as population centres change and all the other reasons this stretch of obsolete railway had to be closed for the good of the people! All the marketing and million pound or euro advertising campaigns were never going to help passenger numbers and re-arranging services would lead to added personnel costs which would never have been viable because of the tiny number of extra passengers better timings would have produced.

Theoretically the line could have been upgraded and had high speed trains running an hourly service to both Dublin and also to Limerick and Cork, BUT Living in the real world the line was finished and dead for years but was allowed to rot before it was finally laid to rest. It should be lifted now and the lands returned to local farmers so some use might be got from this folly.

Judgement Day

foggy - I'm too exhausted from my rant over security in Dublin Port to argue with you but we are diametrically opposed on this one. That said, the people of south Wexford are more likely to put a Bus Eireann bus on the Moon than reopen this line.

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

It should be lifted now and the lands returned to local farmers so some use might be got from this folly.

I wouldn't go that far. I think the line should be turned over to the private sector and let them make a go of it. I still don't think it'll ever work tho, as the population just isn't there to support the costs of running it.

corktina

The population IS there...to the west you have Waterford,Limerick and Cork, to the East you have the UK and the rest of Europe. The fact is CIE didnt want it and have been trying to get rid for years by making it unattractive to these markets. It was never really a rural line , it was built to connect the GWR with it's Irish market.

n97 mini

If the train met every ferry and ran all the way through to Galway do you think there'd be enough patronage on the Rosslare-Waterford section to justify it?

purplepanda

n97 mini wrote: »

I wouldn't go that far. I think the line should be turned over to the private sector and let them make a go of it. I still don't think it'll ever work tho, as the population just isn't there to support the costs of running it.

The population density of Wexford county is a lot higher than most rail links & regions in the rest of Ireland. Transport links around the South East & adjacent regions needs to be improved, this is the cheapest way to do it instead of a new road bridge costing billions across the River Barrow. The line has a massive time advantage over the road journey unlike many other rail links.

Wexford has a ferry port with connections to Britain & Europe which could increase tourism to both the South East & West, there is demand for local services between Wexford & towns further up the east coast & Waterford, Kilkenny & the SW regions.

The Rosslare -Waterford rail line has never had services catering for local people nor proper connections to the rest of the rail network for decades.

It's time for proper rail services & viable onward connections with links for local passengers & overseas visitors & tourists to be introduced. Why not try weekend services in the summer months to the West & SW coasts, linking up with the ferry arrivals & promoted properly by the tourist board & associated rail operators in Britain?

Why should other threatened rail lines be given extra & improved services whilst this line is mothballed? It's time to give the line a fair chance!!

n97 mini

purplepanda wrote: »

The population density of Wexford county is a lot higher than most rail links & regions in the rest of Ireland

I googled for some of the populations along the route...

Rosslare: 1100
Killinick: 792
Bridgetown: 747
Duncormick: 503
Wellingtonbridge: ???
Ballycullane: 219
Campile: 347

I dare say a Luas for Gorey would be more financially viable.

corktina

n97 mini wrote: »

I googled for some of the populations along the route...

Rosslare: 1100
Killinick: 792
Bridgetown: 747
Duncormick: 503
Wellingtonbridge: ???
Ballycullane: 219
Campile: 347

I dare say a Luas for Gorey would be more financially viable.

You carefully left Waterford off your list I see.

n97 mini

corktina wrote: »

You carefully left Waterford off your list I see.

Last time I checked Waterford wasn't in Wexford county...

purplepanda wrote: »

The population density of Wexford county is a lot higher than most rail links & regions in the rest of Ireland.

I left off Cork, Limerick and Galway too, aswell as Dublin and a few other places that also aren't in Wexford.

dowlingm

Given the complete lack of a straight road in that part of the world (spent several holidays in the area as a child) paving it might do wonders for travel times across that neck of the woods.

However, the NTA's insistance on keeping it working order did help IE when they moved some stock across it a few months back (I think it was the Lansdowne bridge incident which cut off access to Connolly?)

dowlingm

n97 mini wrote: »

Last time I checked Waterford wasn't in Wexford county...

I left off Cork, Limerick and Galway too, aswell as Dublin and a few other places that also aren't in Wexford.

A touch dishonest - the route was from Waterford to Rosslare after all. In any case, lack of Wexford Town-Waterford connectivity via the line is one of the reasons for its failure.

purplepanda

Population of County Wexford is around 145,000. Both Wexford Town & Waterford City are within the potential catchment area of the railway & most of south Wexford (76,000) County Carlow actually has a much smaller population than South Wexford :rolleyes:

http://www.wexfordcdb.ie/cdb/ResearchInformation/Census2011/Thefile,18470,en.pdf

n97 mini

purplepanda wrote: »

Population of County Wexford is around 145,000.

Yes, and probably 90% of those are not within the catchment area of that railway.

purplepanda wrote: »

Both Wexford Town & Waterford City are within the potential catchment area of the railway

Wexford town is not. Bus/road is far quicker and shorter.

dowlingm wrote:

A touch dishonest

purplepanda specifically mentioned Wexford county, and I specifically responded to that.

To put it in context there is a greater population in the towns along the route from Collooney to Tuam.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

I googled for some of the populations along the route...

Rosslare: 1100
Killinick: 792
Bridgetown: 747
Duncormick: 503
Wellingtonbridge: ???
Ballycullane: 219
Campile: 347

I dare say a Luas for Gorey would be more financially viable.

And this is just why the line isn't worth investing in as a local service; there isn't the density of people or a need to use it and with good reason. The line was built to get post quickly between London and New York, not to move people to and from Wellingtonbridge. It wasn't opened for any local need or gain and it's evident today.

Yes, Rosslare has a ferry service to and from Wales and France but it's via car that most people use the port, not by foot or bus.

Yes, Waterford has loads of people living in it but how many are going to and from Rosslare, Campile or Bridgetown? Or indeed to and from the ferry port?

Yes, Irish Rail didn't put much of a service on the line but with the above points in play, can you really blame them? It was never going to make money, even if everybody in South Wexford used the line 10 times a day and paid double per trip.

The line died the minute that sugar beet subsidies in Ireland was pulled as it was it's chief traffic, not people. Unless the line gets some special freight traffic along it's route a magic EU grant to rebuild it and the Barrow Bridge and a huge WRC sized political push, it will never reopen as a going concern.

And that's coming from somebody who would love to see more lines opened up.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

Much faster buses and cheaper to run and more flexible and routes can be changed as population centres change

so is a car. and actually in my experience busses aren't much faster.
same can happen with the railway, if a new population centre arises a new road will be built which will involve land being purchased. same could happen for the railway. it doesn't have to be on some old alignment.
the railway could be cheeper to run if irish rail were possibly taken out of the picture. lots of people out of work in this country looking for a job who could be trained up to do the jobs for half the cost. the line wasn't obsolete, just ran into oblivian by irish rail. it wasn't the first and it won't be the last. and its closure was certainly not for the good of the people, you only need to look at irish rails facebook to see how much they care about their customers. of course this line wasn't going to work as it was never marketed and most lightly people didn't think this line was still open. had their been good marketing and some extra services put on the line and it didn't work then fair enough close it or allow the community rail partnership to make a go of it. no point in lifting it and returning it to local farmers.

corktina

As I pointed out earlier, given a level playing field, there should be potential for travellers from further west heading for the ferry.
The local stations themselves are not really viable without the longer distance journeys that IE so sucessfully discouraged over the years.
Oh and yes, I know Waterford is not in Co Wexford BUT to issue statistics about this line without including it is bogus

dowlingm

I doubt we're going to say much now that we didn't say over 44 pages of this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055851547
at least until the SWIFFT people front up what their proposal actually is.

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

The population IS there...to the west you have Waterford,Limerick and Cork, to the East you have the UK and the rest of Europe. The fact is CIE didnt want it and have been trying to get rid for years by making it unattractive to these markets. It was never really a rural line , it was built to connect the GWR with it's Irish market.

Waterford Limerick and Cork are well served by rail services as befits their populations and there are links to the UK and Europe Via Dublin which are much easier to get to than Rosslare ever was.

n97 mini wrote: »

If the train met every ferry and ran all the way through to Galway do you think there'd be enough patronage on the Rosslare-Waterford section to justify it?

NO, Who would want to go from Bridgetown, Ballycullane, Wellingtonbridge or Campile to anywhere else en route to galway? they would need to put on a sleeper train for the length of that journey!

Hungerford

n97 mini wrote: »

Wexford town is not. Bus/road is far quicker and shorter.

It isn't quicker at peak commuter periods - you have to travel through New Ross which is a massive bottleneck. It's one of the few train journeys in Ireland which absolutely slaughters the road journey times.

n97 mini

But you can't do Wexford to Waterford without going through Rosslare, which is pretty much the opposite direction?

Dublin Spotter

You can do Waterford-Rosslare Strand-Wexford but not serve Rosslare Europort. Trains don't need to service Europort when there is no ferries to connect with.

Hungerford

n97 mini wrote: »

But you can't do Wexford to Waterford without going through Rosslare, which is pretty much the opposite direction?

Nope. There is no direct route between Wexford and Waterford - all of them involve extra mileage to get to a crossing point over the Barrow.

The road goes westwards to New Ross before heading south to Waterford. The railway line goes south to Rosslare and then westwards to Waterford. The quicker average journey time by rail is due to the fact that it doesn't have to compete with other traffic at its crossing point. The advantage is even bigger from points south of Wexford because the only road route involves going via New Ross whereas the train takes a more direct route.

n97 mini

Sounds like a bypass is needed, not a railway.

purplepanda

n97 mini wrote: »

Yes, and probably 90% of those are not within the catchment area of that railway.


Wexford town is not. Bus/road is far quicker and shorter.


purplepanda specifically mentioned Wexford county, and I specifically responded to that.

To put it in context there is a greater population in the towns along the route from Collooney to Tuam.

A look at the county council document link I posted would confirm that most of Wexford Town & New Ross districts (76,000) are within reach of this railway, only areas northwards of these towns would be outside the catchment region not 90% as you state.

Comparison with a closed line in Mayo / Sligo ( which would take €95 plus million to rebuild) is laughable, there are probably more people in south Wexford than Sligo & the population has been growing much faster in recent years.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

Sounds like a bypass is needed, not a railway.

so how and where would they put the by pass? i don't think it can be done, if it could it would have been done surely? anyway it would cost to much and be a waste of money when theirs a railway that could have services restarted more or less straight away and bring people that way quicker.

n97 mini

The bypass would go here according to the NRA:
N25 New Ross Bypass

If the people of S. Wexford were asked to chose between a bypass of New Ross, or re-open the railway, which would they chose. Hypothetically of course.

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

The bypass would go here according to the NRA:
N25 New Ross Bypass

If the people of S. Wexford were asked to chose between a bypass of New Ross, or re-open the railway, which would they chose. Hypothetically of course.

The by-pass might bring some industry and employment to the area and will certainly benefit a lot more people in the area than a broke down old steam train line harking back to an era when the railway children were meeting their old gentleman in stations like Campile and Ballycullane, the line ideally requires a complete rebuild and a realignment and replacement of the barrow bridge

n97 mini

One thing I will give the line is that the stations are picturesque. It reminds me of the wild west. Stations in the middle of nowhere, and only one train a week: the 3:10 to Yuma.



Campile Station. Notice the lack of urban stuff, like houses and people.

pigtown

corktina wrote: »

As I pointed out earlier, given a level playing field, there should be potential for travellers from further west heading for the ferry.
The local stations themselves are not really viable without the longer distance journeys that IE so sucessfully discouraged over the years.
Oh and yes, I know Waterford is not in Co Wexford BUT to issue statistics about this line without including it is bogus

That reminds me of being on the train from Galwy to Limerick last year when a Dutch couple asked the conductor about buying tickets to continue on to Rosslare. He basically said getting the train wasn't worth their while and to get the bus.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Waterford Limerick and Cork are well served by rail services as befits their populations and there are links to the UK and Europe Via Dublin which are much easier to get to than Rosslare ever was.

Maybe they are well served in intercity links but I know that commuter rail in regional cities has so much more potential if the authorities had a bit of vision.

Judgement Day

n97 mini wrote: »

One thing I will give the line is that the stations are picturesque. It reminds me of the wild west. Stations in the middle of nowhere, and only one train a week: the 3:10 to Yuma.



Campile Station. Notice the lack of urban stuff, like houses and people.

Thanks for the interesting pic (lifted for my archives ) but as has been pointed out the route was never intended for local traffic and the size of towns/villages between Waterford and Rosslare is something of a red herring.

n97 mini

Judgement Day wrote: »

Thanks for the interesting pic (lifted for my archives ) but as has been pointed out the route was never intended for local traffic and the size of towns/villages between Waterford and Rosslare is something of a red herring.

You need to tell that to the people who are arguing for re-opening it, like:

purplepanda wrote: »

The population density of Wexford county is a lot higher than most rail links & regions in the rest of Ireland.

CIE

n97 mini wrote: »

One thing I will give the line is that the stations are picturesque. It reminds me of the wild west. Stations in the middle of nowhere, and only one train a week: the 3:10 to Yuma.



Campile Station. Notice the lack of urban stuff, like houses and people.

Wrong angle. Try shooting while looking north.

n97 mini

CIE wrote: »

Wrong angle. Try shooting while looking north.

Pic shows there's nothing on three sides.

JeffK88

So any more information on this line... or is it dead in the water at this stage.

Judgement Day

Greenway coming soon.

GerardKeating

n97 mini wrote: »

But you can't do Wexford to Waterford without going through Rosslare, which is pretty much the opposite direction?

One could if they relaid the Killinick curve, which would allow a direct Wexford-Waterford service.

JeffK88

God dame greenways.. why don't they see if there is any operators interested in the line to run it on behalf of IE. They can rent the line to them and make some profit from the rental instead of ripping it up and then in 20yrs relaying its again. Im sure i read somewhere that a British company had shown interest in running the line so they could operate trains to meet ferries

end of the road

JeffK88 wrote: »

God dame greenways.. why don't they see if there is any operators interested in the line to run it on behalf of IE. They can rent the line to them and make some profit from the rental instead of ripping it up and then in 20yrs relaying its again.

thats what the save the rail group is trying to do but whether it will happen or not only they know, these things take time i imagine. it will either happen or it won't.

corktina

JeffK88 wrote: »

God dame greenways.. why don't they see if there is any operators interested in the line to run it on behalf of IE. They can rent the line to them and make some profit from the rental instead of ripping it up and then in 20yrs relaying its again. Im sure i read somewhere that a British company had shown interest in running the line so they could operate trains to meet ferries

an informed opinion?

There is no question of ripping it up, not for very many years anyway.

How many passengers from Waterford and points west and south do you imagine would travel by train to the ferry? From observation, the number of foot passengers on each ferry is very very small, I'd hazzard an average of less than a dozen.

dmcronin

CIE wrote: »

Wrong angle. Try shooting while looking north.

FYI that station building WAS picturesque. Demolished years ago, just a platform and bus style (more like agricultural style) shelter provided. Wellington Bridge is the only original one left intact.
Any group to taking over the running of the South Wex would have to totally renew the Barrow Bridge, the paint is the only thing holding it together. Easy to see a reason for immediate closure post-Malahide.

Our man in Havana

Is the Barrow Bridge serviceable at the moment?

foggy_lad

Trains to the ferry will never ever be viable because of the unreliable nature of the weather and the ferry arriving often early or late. people don't want to wait a few hours at an empty dead ferryport with only a tiny shop selling crisps snacks and paper cups of tea and coffee from a machine.

The train has to run to a reliable schedule for people to use it and the ferry will never run to such a schedule!