Armagh Hurling - Why bother?

Local_Chap

An Armagh hurling team took a hammering yesterday. Allianz National Hurling League FT: Kildare 7-30 - 0-07 Armagh

Now the usual ''theres no interest'' ''why dont other teams promote football'' for me is not good enough.

Why are county boards all over the country put under pressure to promote football yet this can constantly happen in Armagh?


With all the abuse Kilkennt football took for their hammering whats with the lack of talk about Armagh who lost to Kilkdare who arent exactly a hurling stronghold

bruschi

I had actually thought Armagh had been making good improvements over the last few years. They contested an Ulster final I think against Antrim and their underage has had a couple of wins. Granted, they would be against teams like down or Derry, but it was showing good improvement. I saw that result and was very suprised at it. Kildare themselves have been making huge efforts, but I didnt think there would be as much of a gap between the sides.

J Cheever Loophole

Local_Chap wrote: »

With all the abuse Kilkennt football took for their hammering whats with the lack of talk about Armagh who lost to Kilkdare who arent exactly a hurling stronghold

If this was one of a series of such results ths year, and this year in turn was like every other year, then your point would have some validity. However it does not - we have already beaten Mayo and Roscommon this year in the league which indicates we are more than competitive at our level - a level that includes more than one team.

That said - I was seriously taken aback by that score!!

Local_Chap

Yea ok, I have taken it out of context,there not half as bad as Kilkenny but when I seen the score I got a bit of a surprise,I would of thought teams in Divsion 2 would of been of a similar standard, not for one team to beat another by 44 points!

J Cheever Loophole

Local_Chap wrote: »

Yea ok, I have taken it out of context,there not half as bad as Kilkenny but when I seen the score I got a bit of a surprise,I would of thought teams in Divsion 2 would of been of a similar standard, not for one team to beat another by 44 points!

I'm a football man myself and (to my shame) I would not know as much about our hurlers. However looking at their form in recent years, they remind me of some of these soccer teams that are regularly promoted / relegated to / from the Premieship. We can struggle at the second division level and are too good for the third division level.

lala88

Unlike the Killkenny footballers this doent happen week in week out

Mountainlad

This thread is already descending into another excuse to have a go at the Kilkenny footballers.

KevIRL

Poor target for a thread op. Armagh have made huge progress in recent years even made it to the ulster final. Bad day at the office yesterday for sure, no reason to start a thread lambasting them though

Hammer Archer

I'd be looking more at Longford and Leitrim who were beaten by 38 and 33 points against Warwickshire and Fermanagh respectively.
Unfortunately people seem to care about Kilkenny not promoting football a hell of a lot more than these counties not promoting hurling. Personally I think every county has a right to promote each sport as they see fit.

Frankie Lee

It was a combination of Kildare being a class above division 2b (bad manager last season has them down there) and Armagh fielding a weakened team for some reason. Armagh hurling has been making great strides forward recently and this is a pathetic thread.

Henno30

Armagh have made massive progress in recent years. Closing the gap takes time. Their Nicky Rackard final with London in 2010 was one of the best games I saw that year and it's a shame it wasn't televised.

Comparison with the KK footballers is totally inappropriate in this instance. I'm from one of the 'traditional' counties and I'd have huge respect for Armagh hurling.

ShamoBuc

When they lose by 40 plus points on a week by week basis for a long time then I'd be worried. They have put in a lot of work in recent years and I expect it was more of a blip than a regular occurance.

To Alcohol

Leave it out. It was the development Armagh team for whatever reason. Either that or Kildare are ready to take on Kilkenny for their Leinster and All Ireland crowns.

Stevecw

Kildare are probably good enough to be in 2a, and if they were there this season I reckon they'd have done better than Down and Wicklow. Armagh have made good progress, and don't deserve a beating like that.

Their club champions beat the Munster intermediate champs and got to an all ireland inter final where they ran MLR of Carlow very close. Was a quality final. Most of that MLR team are part of the Carlow team who have won every game in 2a, while the Armagh lads who cud match them at club level are getting a horrible beating in 2b

Kerrydude1981

Have to agree,Kildare are a division 2a side,they would be well able to compete with the teams in that division and will be hoping for a good run in the Christy Ring,as for Armagh they did reach an Ulster final and are doing well at their own level,so no need to panic yet.

Martin567

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Have to agree,Kildare are a division 2a side,they would be well able to compete with the teams in that division and will be hoping for a good run in the Christy Ring,as for Armagh they did reach an Ulster final and are doing well at their own level,so no need to panic yet.

That's all very well but surely those posting on this thread can see the differences between the different levels of football and hurling. You are excusing Armagh because Kildare may be good enough to survive at Div 2A. Fair enough, it seems there really are about 5 or 6 different levels in hurling, all with their own few teams.

However, I see a couple of digs at the Kilkenny footballers again in this thread. Can the people excusing the weaker hurling counties really not see the contradiction in their argument when they then criticise Kilkenny? I see Limerick footballers are currently only mid-table in Div 4. This is the team who lost by a point to eventual All-Ireland Champions Cork in 2010. It is completely dishonest to pretend that the same levels exist in football as they do in hurling. The Kilkenny footballers are expected to compete against opposition which is massively superior in relative terms to those teams all the weaker hurling teams play every week.

shockframe

Local_Chap wrote: »

An Armagh hurling team took a hammering yesterday. Allianz National Hurling League FT: Kildare 7-30 - 0-07 Armagh


With all the abuse Kilkennt football took for their hammering whats with the lack of talk about Armagh who lost to Kilkdare who arent exactly a hurling stronghold

The circumstances of Armagh and Kilkenny are a lot different to each other.

Armagh is a football mad county and kilkenny is a hurling one.Even at that Armagh have really only become a football stronghold since the late nineties with only 1 senior all ireland compared to kilkennys 33 in hurling

Armagh has a political divide which would cut its potenital GAA playing numbers in half, bringing it down to less than what kilkenny would have.Sports such as rugby, soccer and gaelic football all are more established.Hurling has been slower to develop in the north due to factors like the troubles so patience is required.

Tyrone and Armagh have underage hurling development squads in place so there is interest in getting hurling off the ground up there.

Given that Armagh compete in division 2 of the league, reached an ulster final and an armagh club side contested the 2012 all ireland intermediate final comparisons with kilkenny football are off the mark.

aidan24326

bruschi wrote: »

I had actually thought Armagh had been making good improvements over the last few years. They contested an Ulster final I think against Antrim and their underage has had a couple of wins. Granted, they would be against teams like down or Derry, but it was showing good improvement. I saw that result and was very suprised at it. Kildare themselves have been making huge efforts, but I didnt think there would be as much of a gap between the sides.

That was the impression I had aswell, especially at underage level. In fairness they don't usually ship hammerings like that. Must have been something amiss,

bruschi

Martin567 wrote: »

That's all very well but surely those posting on this thread can see the differences between the different levels of football and hurling. You are excusing Armagh because Kildare may be good enough to survive at Div 2A. Fair enough, it seems there really are about 5 or 6 different levels in hurling, all with their own few teams.

However, I see a couple of digs at the Kilkenny footballers again in this thread. Can the people excusing the weaker hurling counties really not see the contradiction in their argument when they then criticise Kilkenny? I see Limerick footballers are currently only mid-table in Div 4. This is the team who lost by a point to eventual All-Ireland Champions Cork in 2010. It is completely dishonest to pretend that the same levels exist in football as they do in hurling. The Kilkenny footballers are expected to compete against opposition which is massively superior in relative terms to those teams all the weaker hurling teams play every week.

there was 1 negative mentions to Kilkenny, the opening post. there is no need to drag it back to another discussion on Kilkenny football. Armagh are making an effort to promote hurling and whilst it may take a long time, there is a concerted effort to improve standards and there have been signs of improvement. Kilkenny dont promote football, and dont look like improving.

Yes, you can go on about the gulf in standards that arent comparable, which I completley agree with, but you can never bridge that gap by ignoring the solutions and keeping making excues.

Martin567

bruschi wrote: »

there was 1 negative mentions to Kilkenny, the opening post. there is no need to drag it back to another discussion on Kilkenny football. Armagh are making an effort to promote hurling and whilst it may take a long time, there is a concerted effort to improve standards and there have been signs of improvement. Kilkenny dont promote football, and dont look like improving.

Yes, you can go on about the gulf in standards that arent comparable, which I completley agree with, but you can never bridge that gap by ignoring the solutions and keeping making excues.

The opening post wasn't negative towards Kilkenny. I was referring to #6 & #11 who brought up Kilkenny again. I was simply pointing out the fact, not an excuse, that Armagh have games against teams at the same level as themselves while they try to improve. Kilkenny have to play against teams who are competitive against, and occasionally beat, Div 1 teams. I bet hurling development in Armagh would take a knock if they found themselves playing against the likes of Laois or Carlow every week. Now move that up a level and look at what the Kilkenny footballers are supposed to compete against.

bruschi

Martin567 wrote: »

The opening post wasn't negative towards Kilkenny. I was referring to #6 & #11 who brought up Kilkenny again. I was simply pointing out the fact, not an excuse, that Armagh have games against teams at the same level as themselves while they try to improve. Kilkenny have to play against teams who are competitive against, and occasionally beat, Div 1 teams. I bet hurling development in Armagh would take a knock if they found themselves playing against the likes of Laois or Carlow every week. Now move that up a level and look at what the Kilkenny footballers are supposed to compete against.

yeah, you missed the whole point of the post. I already agreed with you that there is no comparable standard to Kilkenny footballers.

But, some other counties, including Armagh, are trying to improve standards of hurling and are implementing coaching plans and have aims to improve. Kilkenny football doesnt have that. At all. Until there is an effort made, then they will always be in debates like this.

Orizio

Evidently Armagh put out their reserves reserves for this (literally). **** knows why, but there you go. I'm not sure if the Middleton lads are back playing yet either. TBF Kildare would beat them regardless but only by 5-10 points.

Isn't Dinny Cahill over Armagh this year? I'd like to hear his reasoning for basically throwing the game.

K-9

shockframe wrote: »

The circumstances of Armagh and Kilkenny are a lot different to each other.

Armagh is a football mad county and kilkenny is a hurling one.Even at that Armagh have really only become a football stronghold since the late nineties with only 1 senior all ireland compared to kilkennys 33 in hurling

They did get to 2 AI finals before that, 56 and 78 IIRC. Not strong on an AI level but would have been considered strong in Ulster during that time, they just hadn't a great team during the early 90's Ulster domination, pushed Donegal hard in epic games in 93 though!

Armagh originally came to the fore in Ulster in the 50's along with Tyrone, Derry and Down lastly. Cavan and Monaghan, with the odd Antrim win, dominated Ulster before that, to Cork and Kerry levels in Munster now. That all changed in the 50's and then Donegal finally joined the others in the 70's. Down are now considered a traditional football county and they didn't win Ulster till 59 and an AI till 60, so by that measurement Armagh are a football stronghold, just didn't win an AI until 02.

Armagh has a political divide which would cut its potenital GAA playing numbers in half, bringing it down to less than what kilkenny would have.Sports such as rugby, soccer and gaelic football all are more established.Hurling has been slower to develop in the north due to factors like the troubles so patience is required.

Tyrone and Armagh have underage hurling development squads in place so there is interest in getting hurling off the ground up there.

Given that Armagh compete in division 2 of the league, reached an ulster final and an armagh club side contested the 2012 all ireland intermediate final comparisons with kilkenny football are off the mark.

Indeed, efforts have been made in most Ulster counties. Keady would always have been a hurling area and as you say, Armagh had made advances, not far off Down or Derry now. Not sure of the reason for this development team being played, I assume it's internal politics and a point being made, usually is. I know from Donegal a tough job has become harder with emigration and the recession, one of the Donegal clubs is gone, but there is an Ulster club league now at different levels, it isn't for the want of trying that Ulster is weak in hurling.

Unfortunately football is where the success and therefore the money is in, if that succeeds, hopefully some of that gets into hurling because it has to be heavily subsidised, an Ulster league season costs money after all.

As for Kilkenny, I suppose the point is a lot of the football counties have shown some level of improvement over the last decade or so, Kilkenny footballers haven't. Somebody mentioned Carlow, well their footballers haven't really improved much in standing, yet their hurlers have. Dubin is the example everybody wants to follow in hurling but they have a big population. Carlow is the example to follow, not that successful football wise but they had Eire Og in the 90's.

Kilkenny used to have London as competition, London obviously have more players now but counties effected by emigration like Leitrim, Carlow and Clare are still way ahead of them, even Clare, where football is very much the second sport.

As for Armagh hurlers, a one off result is hardly worth a thread, improvement has occurred over the last few years and there is some one off event at play here.

hurler_87

I think Armagh hurling is on a great upwards curve... for every county at some stage, are liable to receive a trimming - once in a while.

It is when they become a weekly or bi-weekly event, that it should become a county/nationwide concern.

I had the pleasure of meeting an Armagh hurler recently - and he believes they are at the very least on par, if not ahead of Derry, and Down at this moment in time. My knowledge of Ulster hurling is not great other than the colleges and Antrim - so I wouldnt be able to argue with that.

With Na Fianna (open to correction on the name) competing in an All-Ireland final last month; underage Ulster finals for the last two years - I would certainly think Armagh hurling is certainly worth the bother.

J Cheever Loophole

Martin567 wrote: »

I was simply pointing out the fact, not an excuse, that Armagh have games against teams at the same level as themselves while they try to improve. Kilkenny have to play against teams who are competitive against, and occasionally beat, Div 1 teams. I bet hurling development in Armagh would take a knock if they found themselves playing against the likes of Laois or Carlow every week. Now move that up a level and look at what the Kilkenny footballers are supposed to compete against.

Should Kilkenny therefore accept where they are and put no effort or resource into addressing that?

In the early 1970s, the Sunday Independent did an article that listed the 32 counties in football in order of merit. Armagh were second last. What followed saw Armagh compete in an All Ireland Senior Football Final less than five years later, because the article itself was seen as a watershed moment in our history. A special meeting was called of all interested parties to address the situation and a whole review of all of Armagh football was carried out - the review resulted in widespread change in approach and attitudes and suddenly things were on the up. We were nearly shamed into action.

I am not of course saying that if Kilkenny do similar, they will be in an All Ireland Football Final soon - however I cannot believe that such a strong GAA county would not be able to provide some element of resource that would improve things to the point of self respect?

K-9

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

In the early 1970s, the Sunday Independent did an article that listed the 32 counties in football in order of merit. Armagh were second last. What followed saw Armagh compete in an All Ireland Senior Football Final less than five years later, because the article itself was seen as a watershed moment in our history. A special meeting was called of all interested parties to address the situation and a whole review of all of Armagh football was carried out - the review resulted in widespread change in approach and attitudes and suddenly things were on the up. We were nearly shamed into action.

Donegal apparently were there too in 71,we won our first Ulster title in 72!

Armagh had a very good team in the late 70's/early 80's, emigration and the Troubles to deal with. Reminds me of the story I heard about the Bellaghy club team who won AI clubs in 72 and 74, between emigration and prison, all the team was gone a few years later!

aidan24326

hoganstand wrote:

Willie Sunderland feels that Armagh were 'disrespectful' to Kildare.

The Lilywhites' hurling manager oversaw his charges hand out a 7-30 to 0-7 hammering to the Orchard County.

Many hurling pundits were shocked by the scoreline as Armagh had been playing well in the campaign and put up impressive scores in their last two outings.

However, it emerged that the Ulster side fielded a development squad against Kildare last weekend and Sunderland admitted to the Leinster Leader that we was bemused by the decision.

"I wouldn't do what Armagh did," stressed Sunderland. I think that they were totally disrespectful to Kildare. Dinny Cahill (Armagh selector) can do what he likes with his team, but I won't do that to Mayo.

"I don't know what is to be gained by sending a team down to Kildare to be beaten by 7-30 to 0-7."

So it seems Armagh sent their 'development squad' to Kildare.

I fully agree with Willie Sunderland's last line there. While it's always good to give your fringe players and your up and coming players some game time, it's very difficult to see the logic in sending them down to Kildare like lambs to the slaughter, to be hammered by a cricket score. Nothing to be gained from that. The Armagh players will have gone home demoralised, and it's hard to see how that will aid in their development.

J Cheever Loophole

aidan24326 wrote: »

So it seems Armagh sent their 'development squad' to Kildare.

I fully agree with Willie Sunderland's last line there. While it's always good to give your fringe players and your up and coming players some game time, it's very difficult to see the logic in sending them down to Kildare like lambs to the slaughter, to be hammered by a cricket score. Nothing to be gained from that. The Armagh players will have gone home demoralised, and it's hard to see how that will aid in their development.

Agreed totally - can't see what his thinking was. A lot of hurling folk up here giving off about it as well!

Hammer Archer

I see Longford forfeited their hurling league game against Fermanagh today as they were unable to field a team. Their performance in the league this year has been absolutely atrocious (on a par with Kilkenny in the football league). Lost their first game to Leitrim by 16 points (note that Leitrim then lost their next game to Fermanagh by more than twice that), then were hockeyed by 38 points against Warwickshire.
Going on this basis, they would most likely have shipped a similar, or worse, beating had they fielded a team today. But you definitely won't hear RTE devoting any time to ask what they can do to improve the standard of hurling in Longford as they did with the Kilkenny footballers.

ardmacha

Kilkenny has two and a half times the population of Longford, so their refusal to put out a football team, or at least one that makes an effort, is less forgiveable. They have a bigger population to work from than Monaghan, Longford, Fermanagh, Cavan etc that inhabit the lower ends of the hurling spectrum.

As for this thread, not sure why Armagh put out a dud squad for that game, it wasn't appropriate.

nlgbbbblth

Hammer Archer wrote: »

I see Longford forfeited their hurling league game against Fermanagh today as they were unable to field a team. Their performance in the league this year has been absolutely atrocious (on a par with Kilkenny in the football league). Lost their first game to Leitrim by 16 points (note that Leitrim then lost their next game to Fermanagh by more than twice that), then were hockeyed by 38 points against Warwickshire.
Going on this basis, they would most likely have shipped a similar, or worse, beating had they fielded a team today. But you definitely won't hear RTE devoting any time to ask what they can do to improve the standard of hurling in Longford as they did with the Kilkenny footballers.

Longford hurlers won the Lory Meagher cup in 2010.

They're having a terrible season at the moment but have held their own over the years (in the fourth tier).

The reason RTE won't be devoting any time to Longford or Armagh hurlers is because their hammerings are not consistent. Kilkenny footballers on the other hand have been rubbish for the last 35/40 years and genuinely look like they couldn't be bothered.

Hammer Archer

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

Longford hurlers won the Lory Meagher cup in 2010.

They're having a terrible season at the moment but have held their own over the years (in the fourth tier).

The reason RTE won't be devoting any time to Longford or Armagh hurlers is because their hammerings are not consistent. Kilkenny footballers on the other hand have been rubbish for the last 35/40 years and genuinely look like they couldn't be bothered.

They have a grand total of 3 hurling clubs in the county so I don't see how Kilkenny aren't bothered yet Longford are.
And, once again, the teams Kilkenny are playing in footballs fourth tier are lightyears ahead of those playing in hurling's fourth tier. For example, London took Mayo to extra time last season, Clare only lost to Down by a point, Wicklow took Armagh to a replay. Could you see the likes of Fermanagh, Leitrim or Warwickshire doing the same to division 1 or even division 2 hurling teams?
While it's not nice to see a team beaten every week, at least they field a team every week. I think its incredible that Longford couldn't find 15 players to play their game on Sunday.

Martin567

Hammer Archer wrote: »

They have a grand total of 3 hurling clubs in the county so I don't see how Kilkenny aren't bothered yet Longford are.
And, once again, the teams Kilkenny are playing in footballs fourth tier are lightyears ahead of those playing in hurling's fourth tier. For example, London took Mayo to extra time last season, Clare only lost to Down by a point, Wicklow took Armagh to a replay. Could you see the likes of Fermanagh, Leitrim or Warwickshire doing the same to division 1 or even division 2 hurling teams?
While it's not nice to see a team beaten every week, at least they field a team every week. I think its incredible that Longford couldn't find 15 players to play their game on Sunday.

This is the fundamental and completely obvious point that so many people deliberately choose to ignore when making their ridiculous comparisons. I'm fed up of people saying how the lower league hurling teams are competitive "at their own level". It's easier to be competitive when the overall standard is so bad. The level the Kilkenny footballers would need to reach to be competitive against the likes of Limerick is on another stratosphere to what any lower league hurling team is ever expected to achieve.

K-9

Hammer Archer wrote: »

They have a grand total of 3 hurling clubs in the county so I don't see how Kilkenny aren't bothered yet Longford are.
And, once again, the teams Kilkenny are playing in footballs fourth tier are lightyears ahead of those playing in hurling's fourth tier. For example, London took Mayo to extra time last season, Clare only lost to Down by a point, Wicklow took Armagh to a replay. Could you see the likes of Fermanagh, Leitrim or Warwickshire doing the same to division 1 or even division 2 hurling teams?

They are usually competitive within their leagues. London have improved so its really only Kilkenny on its ownsome, they have zero, zilch competition.

Martin567

K-9 wrote: »

They are usually competitive within their leagues. London have improved so its really only Kilkenny on its ownsome, they have zero, zilch competition.

This point is completely and utterly meaningless as I've explained above. I honestly can't understand why people continue putting it forward.

K-9

Martin567 wrote: »

This point is completely and utterly meaningless as I've explained above. I honestly can't understand why people continue putting it forward.

Because Kilkenny are a one off, there are no comparisons and they've shown absolutely zero intention of doing much about it!

It's why the OP had to pick a result out, one an anomaly, the other a team not fielding. The only football team getting regular hammerrings is, wait for it, Kilkenny.

Martin567

K-9 wrote: »

Because Kilkenny are a one off, there are no comparisons and they've shown absolutely zero intention of doing much about it!

It's why the OP had to pick a result out, one an anomaly, the other a team not fielding. The only football team getting regular hammerrings is, wait for it, Kilkenny.

Are you really from Donegal? Can I familiarise you with the word "hypocrisy"?

I, and a few others like me, really have to show a lot of patience in explaining this point to those who love to attack Kilkenny. I honestly believe that a kindergarten class would have grasped it quicker. 1+1 does in fact = 2, after all.

Yes, Kilkenny are a one-off in that we are the only county where football is a true minority sport with no part of the county where football is the main sport. This makes us unique in the football world. However, it is a FACT that more than half the counties in the country are in the exact same situation as regards hurling. The difference is that they all have each other to play against and so can be competitive at this very low level. This then allows the disingenuous and the extremely simple minded to credit them with being competitive at their own level.

The Sports Editor of one of the country's biggest selling newspapers recently made the point that nobody expects the Kilkenny footballers to be competitive against Kerry or Cork but that they should be competitve against the teams at their own level. This all sounds reasonable until you consider who the teams are at Kilkenny's level. Limerick are currently only midway up the Div 4 table of the NFL. Now let's rephrase the earlier statement. "Nobody expects Kilkenny footballers to be competitive against Kerry or Cork but they should be competitive against Limerick". Given that Limerick have been very much competitive against both Cork & Kerry in recent years, Kilkenny would obviously have to be competitive with Cork & Kerry also, in order to compete with Limerick. Nothing of this sort is expected of any of the lower level hurling teams.

I wonder is any knowledge of GAA required in order to become Sports Editor of a National newspaper? Or a Moderator on the GAA Section of Boards.ie for that matter?

ardmacha

For example, London took Mayo to extra time last season, Clare only lost to Down by a point, Wicklow took Armagh to a replay.

This "theory" that Kilkenny footballers cannot be expected to compete with their peers is complete bunkum. If Clare can put it up to Down or Wicklow to Armagh, then Kilkenny can put it up to Waterford or Carlow from time to time. The reality is that motivated well organised football teams can do well sometimes against teams that should be well above them, something that is not so easy in hurling. But Kilkenny never seem to manage this even against the weakest teams.

nlgbbbblth

In the 1980s and early 1990s Kilkenny were somewhat competitive against Limerick, London, Waterford and Carlow - and recorded occasional victories over all of them.

Those teams have improved while Kilkenny have regressed.

K-9

Martin567 wrote: »

Are you really from Donegal? Can I familiarise you with the word "hypocrisy"?

I, and a few others like me, really have to show a lot of patience in explaining this point to those who love to attack Kilkenny. I honestly believe that a kindergarten class would have grasped it quicker. 1+1 does in fact = 2, after all.

Yes, Kilkenny are a one-off in that we are the only county where football is a true minority sport with no part of the county where football is the main sport. This makes us unique in the football world. However, it is a FACT that more than half the counties in the country are in the exact same situation as regards hurling. The difference is that they all have each other to play against and so can be competitive at this very low level. This then allows the disingenuous and the extremely simple minded to credit them with being competitive at their own level.

The Sports Editor of one of the country's biggest selling newspapers recently made the point that nobody expects the Kilkenny footballers to be competitive against Kerry or Cork but that they should be competitve against the teams at their own level. This all sounds reasonable until you consider who the teams are at Kilkenny's level. Limerick are currently only midway up the Div 4 table of the NFL. Now let's rephrase the earlier statement. "Nobody expects Kilkenny footballers to be competitive against Kerry or Cork but they should be competitive against Limerick". Given that Limerick have been very much competitive against both Cork & Kerry in recent years, Kilkenny would obviously have to be competitive with Cork & Kerry also, in order to compete with Limerick. Nothing of this sort is expected of any of the lower level hurling teams.

I wonder is any knowledge of GAA required in order to become Sports Editor of a National newspaper? Or a Moderator on the GAA Section of Boards.ie for that matter?

Simple minded and kindergarden class?

This from somebody who thinks Mod: Politics means I'm a mod of GAA!

In the 1980s and early 1990s Kilkenny were somewhat competitive against Limerick, London, Waterford and Carlow - and recorded occasional victories over all of them.

Those teams have improved while Kilkenny have regressed.

This. It really is that simple and requires zero insults. They only had a couple of victories but were often competitive. Nobody is expecting them to get promoted from Division 4 , just be competitive.

Martin567

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

In the 1980s and early 1990s Kilkenny were somewhat competitive against Limerick, London, Waterford and Carlow - and recorded occasional victories over all of them.

Those teams have improved while Kilkenny have regressed.

Actually, I don't think Kilkenny have regressed at all since the 1980's. I remember then that the local newspaper reporter or the bus driver were in serious danger of being asked to play to make up the numbers. Now there is a proper panel with a full complement of subs.

What has happened is that Limerick, Waterford, Clare, etc, have all improved massively and fair play to them for that. I don't know why they were so bad in the 1980's and how they have managed to improve so much now. Perhaps a few people from those counties could enlighten us? What can be said is that each county, despite being mainly hurling, have a few parishes where football is the main sport and can therefore provide the core of the county team. Kilkenny does not have this at all. The Clare Co Champions qualified for the All Ireland Club Football Final a couple of years ago. To suggest that Kilkenny can ever hope to emulate this is sheer fantasy, you might as well expect the Donegal hurling champs to make the Hurling Final one day.

Anyway, this thread was supposed to be about Armagh hurling. Yet again it has descended into an argument about the Kilkenny footballers. I would not have commented at all about the Armagh hurlers as I'm sure they're doing all they can against the odds. However, I feel I have no choice but to present the proper facts to counter the ignorant rantings of those who continue to pretend the Kilkenny footballers are worse than any hurling team. Any knowledgeable and fair minded person would accept that this is most certainly not the case.

Martin567

K-9 wrote: »

Simple minded and kindergarden class?

This from somebody who thinks Mod: Politics means I'm a mod of GAA!

This. It really is that simple and requires zero insults. They only had a couple of victories but were often competitive. Nobody is expecting them to get promoted from Division 4 , just be competitive.

My mistake. Apologies. I didn't see the Politics bit. I hope your knowledge of politics is better than your knowledge of GAA.

If you think I'm insulting you, so be it. Are you endlessly patient on the Politics forum when contributors show a massive lack of knowledge of the subject at hand? I've dealt with every point you and a couple of others have made and explained in detail why you're wrong. If you still want to argue, please do me the courtesy of dealing with my earlier posts point by point. Just don't keep coming back with the same simplistic statements which only further emphasise what I've already said.

K-9

Martin567 wrote: »

Actually, I don't think Kilkenny have regressed at all since the 1980's. I remember then that the local newspaper reporter or the bus driver were in serious danger of being asked to play to make up the numbers. Now there is a proper panel with a full complement of subs.

What has happened is that Limerick, Waterford, Clare, etc, have all improved massively and fair play to them for that. I don't know why they were so bad in the 1980's and how they have managed to improve so much now. Perhaps a few people from those counties could enlighten us? What can be said is that each county, despite being mainly hurling, have a few parishes where football is the main sport and can therefore provide the core of the county team. Kilkenny does not have this at all. The Clare Co Champions qualified for the All Ireland Club Football Final a couple of years ago. To suggest that Kilkenny can ever hope to emulate this is sheer fantasy, you might as well expect the Donegal hurling champs to make the Hurling Final one day.

The other Munster counties have improved because of resources pumped in, the differential between the top 2 and to give Limerick credit, the top 3. Waterford is probably a good example.

As for Donegal hurling, it had 2 clubs for years, 6 now IIRC and in football strong clubs. 1 may have gone recently. That was built up through hard work and effort. The aim is to stay out of the lower division and get to a stage of competing in an Ulster Championship.

Ironically enough, Armagh did that but the OP obviously doesn't show much interest in hurling up North.

Anyway, this thread was supposed to be about Armagh hurling. Yet again it has descended into an argument about the Kilkenny footballers. I would not have commented at all about the Armagh hurlers as I'm sure they're doing all they can against the odds. However, I feel I have no choice but to present the proper facts to counter the ignorant rantings of those who continue to pretend the Kilkenny footballers are worse than any hurling team. Any knowledgeable and fair minded person would accept that this is most certainly not the case.

If it was about Armagh hurling it would be a dead thread by now as his ignorance got cleared up. The thread wasn't about some idealistic interest in Armagh hurling though? Was it? Hence it still going and now encompassing Longford. This thread was always about Kilkenny footballers and getting comparisons of.

Martin567 wrote: »

My mistake. Apologies. I didn't see the Politics bit. I hope your knowledge of politics is better than your knowledge of GAA.

If you think I'm insulting you, so be it. Are you endlessly patient on the Politics forum when contributors show a massive lack of knowledge of the subject at hand? I've dealt with every point you and a couple of others have made and explained in detail why you're wrong. If you still want to argue, please do me the courtesy of dealing with my earlier posts point by point. Just don't keep coming back with the same simplistic statements which only further emphasise what I've already said.

Yep, it's one of the things people look for when appointing mods.

As for lack of knowledge, its a double edged sword, seems to me both sides lack knowledge of the area they are ranting about. There's truth in both sides of the argument, always find that bamboozles diehards!

I'm not wrong, neither are you. I know, it's a rather difficult concept to get used to on the internet.

J Cheever Loophole

ardmacha wrote: »

This "theory" that Kilkenny footballers cannot be expected to compete with their peers is complete bunkum. If Clare can put it up to Down or Wicklow to Armagh, then Kilkenny can put it up to Waterford or Carlow from time to time. The reality is that motivated well organised football teams can do well sometimes against teams that should be well above them, something that is not so easy in hurling. But Kilkenny never seem to manage this even against the weakest teams.

And in a thread where there appear to be plenty of 'nails-on-the-head', let me point out another above. The key word above is motivated.

There's a poster on this thread who recounted seeing the Kilkenny footballers, staying over in the Carrickdale Hotel, and them heading out on the town the night before their match. This story appears to give a true insight into the attitude / commitment to football within Kilkenny, and that's not just amongst the players either.

Martin567

K-9 wrote: »

Yep, it's one of the things people look for when appointing mods.

As for lack of knowledge, its a double edged sword, seems to me both sides lack knowledge of the area they are ranting about. There's truth in both sides of the argument, always find that bamboozles diehards!

I'm not wrong, neither are you. I know, it's a rather difficult concept to get used to on the internet.

There is only one specific point I've been arguing here all along. That is that the Kilkenny footballers are worse than any hurling team. People who argue that the weaker hurling teams are better because they are "competitive at their own level" are wrong. There is no grey area here at all. I've explained this in detail already so I won't do so yet again.

Saying that you only want Kilkenny to be competitive in Div 4 is superficial and meaningless since, in order to do so, they would have to be capable of holding the likes of Cork, Kerry or Dublin to 15 points on an average day. Nothing like this is expected of the weak hurling teams and never will be.

Having said all this, I have nothing but admiration for those who keep hurling alive against the odds in so many parts of the country. I would hope that these people would have a better understanding of the difficulties facing Kilkenny football and would refrain from the simplistic and insulting comments of a few posters on this thread. If the Armagh hurlers were expected to develop while playing teams of the calibre of Laois or Offaly every week, I think they would have the exact same problems that the Kilkenny footballers currently face.

J Cheever Loophole

Martin567 wrote: »

If the Armagh hurlers were expected to develop while playing teams of the calibre of Laois or Offaly every week, I think they would have the exact same problems that the Kilkenny footballers currently face.

Not too long ago, if Armagh hurlers had been playing the Mayos, Roscommons and Wicklows of this world every week, they would have been getting beat out the gate in every single match. The fact that this is not happening is due in no small way to the huge time, effort and resources put into Armagh hurling in recent years. They were determined to move forward.

There's a lesson there for the weakest of teams in any sport - if of course they are prepared to accept there are lessons to be learned in the first place.

There's none so blind as those that won't see, and it is likely therefore that Kilkenny footballers can look forward to years of the same.

Martin567

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Not too long ago, if Armagh hurlers had been playing the Mayos, Roscommons and Wicklows of this world every week, they would have been getting beat out the gate in every single match. The fact that this is not happening is due in no small way to the huge time, effort and resources put into Armagh hurling in recent years. They were determined to move forward.

There's a lesson there for the weakest of teams in any sport - if of course they are prepared to accept there are lessons to be learned in the first place.

There's none so blind as those that won't see, and it is likely therefore that Kilkenny footballers can look forward to years of the same.

That is indeed very likely and do you know the biggest reason why? There is almost nobody in Kilkenny who cares. I would doubt there is a single person in Kilkenny who would describe gaelic football as their number one sport. That is not a judgment or an opinion as to the rights and wrongs of anything, it is a simple statement of fact. If there are those in Armagh who were determined to improve their hurling, good luck to them and I wish them all the best.

Ultimately, how far do you think they will go? Will they be as good as Offaly or even better in 10 years time? I still maintain that they would have found it impossible to move forward at all if there were not teams already similar to themselves who they could compete against even when they were at their lowest. Imagine a county like Laois being the closest in standard to Armagh with nobody else in between to compete against. Could Armagh have developed at all in that situation?

Hammer Archer

OK, firstly, I personally think Armagh are doing a fantastic job at promoting and improving their hurlers. Making it to the Ulster final last year was a fantastic achievement, especially by beating a team like Down in the semi final.

But there are so many other counties that see hurling as a nuisance to football in the county, like the vast majority of Kilkenny people look down at football. For example, Fermanagh hurlers had to fight tooth and nail to even be allowed play in Brewster Park, Enniskillen. Even when they were playing at home on the same day as the footballers, they were hidden away in Irvinestown. They finally got their final game of the league in Enniskillen only for Longford to not show up.

And now the Monaghan hurling boss has resigned due to the county board refusing to postpone club games to allow them to prepare for their National League final. You can be sure that if Monghan made it to the division 2 football final this year, they would give them every opportunity to prepare.

And finally, I really can't understand why people keep bringing up the point that the weak teams are competitive at their own level. For the hundreth time, that's because there are several teams who couldn't give a damn about hurling, unlike in football where there's only one. If, say, teams like Tipperary and Carlow decided to completely disregard football in their counties and focus entirely on hurling and descended to Kilkenny's level in football, would that then be OK seeing as Kilkenny would all of a sudden become competitive against these teams (through no effort of their own)?

From reading elsewhere, the treatment of hurling in Longford is as bad, if not worse, than the treatment of football in Kilkenny. Even when they won the Lory Meagher Cup in 2010, they had no juvenile, minor or U21 hurling teams (and still don't). There were also Offaly players on that team who didn't even play in Longford. The county championship of last year was never completed despite there only being 3 teams in it and there will be a grand total of 2 teams competing in this years hurling championship. On the day of the abandoned game against Fermanagh last week, the county board scheduled football games involving two of the three hurling clubs meaning only 12 hurlers showed up for the game. And finally (this is what I find most baffling) a manager for the county hurling team was only put in place after the mauling against Warwickshire. There was no Longford senior hurling team manager before that.
Now whatever about football in Kilkenny, no one can deny that this treatment of hurling in Longford is probably much worse. Unfortunately, people who were up in arms about Kilkenny footballers after their U21s were beaten (yet managed to field a team) don't seem to care about counties not making an effort in hurling.

J Cheever Loophole

Martin567 wrote: »

That is indeed very likely and do you know the biggest reason why? There is almost nobody in Kilkenny who cares. I would doubt there is a single person in Kilkenny who would describe gaelic football as their number one sport. That is not a judgment or an opinion as to the rights and wrongs of anything, it is a simple statement of fact. If there are those in Armagh who were determined to improve their hurling, good luck to them and I wish them all the best.

I am going to try and state what I believe your position to be (and please correct me if I'm wrong);

• Kilkenny football is way behind the lowest tier of gaelic football occupied by more than one county team,
• Kilkenny therefore cannot get games of any sort of competitve nature which would enable them to start trying to catch up with the lowest tier of football occupied by more than one county team,
• Very few - if anyone - in Kilkenny cares about the state of gaelic football in Kilkenny,
• It therefore follows that Kilkenny cannot and will not take steps to improve their position,
• As long as Kilkenny football teams remain in existence, they will be subject to the sort of humiliations that we see so regularly.

Now given the above, I have to ask the question why would anyone from Kilkenny want to see their county be embarrassed like this on such a frequent basis - what purpose is served?

Incidentally - I would also call into question the comparisons with Fermanagh and Longford. Kilkenny is a county that is much richer in GAA resources than Longford and Fermanagh!!

And by the way Hammer Archer - a moot point maybe, but Irvinestown is a County ground, and a lovely ground at that!

Hammer Archer

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Incidentally - I would also call into question the comparisons with Fermanagh and Longford. Kilkenny is a county that is much richer in GAA resources than Longford and Fermanagh!!

So Longford are more than capable to produce great footballers like Paul Barden and get promoted to division 2 yet it's OK for them to ignore the county hurling championship and to fail to appoint a hurling manager until the end of the league?
The examples I mentioned are down to a complete and utter disregard for hurling in Longford. It's nothing to do with a lack of resources and I find it slightly baffling that you're up in arms about Kilkenny yet you're trying to find excuses when more counties treat hurling pretty much the same way.

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

And by the way Hammer Archer - a moot point maybe, but Irvinestown is a County ground, and a lovely ground at that!

Hmmmm. The Fermanagh hurling chairman begs to differ.
Note that he said the pitch in Irvinestown was "more suited to sheep" than hurling. It says they had been asking for the use of Brewster Park yet the county board always denied them access. Yet they allowed an U14 football game to be played on it directly after the county footballers.

Martin567

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

I am going to try and state what I believe your position to be (and please correct me if I'm wrong);

• Kilkenny football is way behind the lowest tier of gaelic football occupied by more than one county team,
• Kilkenny therefore cannot get games of any sort of competitve nature which would enable them to start trying to catch up with the lowest tier of football occupied by more than one county team,
• Very few - if anyone - in Kilkenny cares about the state of gaelic football in Kilkenny,
• It therefore follows that Kilkenny cannot and will not take steps to improve their position,
• As long as Kilkenny football teams remain in existence, they will be subject to the sort of humiliations that we see so regularly.

Now given the above, I have to ask the question why would anyone from Kilkenny want to see their county be embarrassed like this on such a frequent basis - what purpose is served?

Incidentally - I would also call into question the comparisons with Fermanagh and Longford. Kilkenny is a county that is much richer in GAA resources than Longford and Fermanagh!!

And by the way Hammer Archer - a moot point maybe, but Irvinestown is a County ground, and a lovely ground at that!

I'm struggling to see how there could possibly be any confusion over my "position". I've been crystal clear in everything I said. Nobody wants to see their county losing by these scores on a weekly basis - no purpose is served. Should Kilkenny pull out totally perhaps, just like Cavan & now possibly Longford in hurling? I bet they'll get a lot more criticism than either Cavan or Longford if that happens though.

I've simply pointed out that Armagh, even at their lowest, had a few other hurling teams that they could still compete against due to the overall low standard. Therefore they could develop and still hope to win matches as they progressed. Kilkenny footballers don't have that possibility since the other Div 4 teams are capable of competing with Div 1 teams. The dishonesty of those who won't accept the difference between Div 4 hurling & football is simply breathtaking.

I'm glad to see Hammer Archer, from Meath, empahasise similar points to those I made earlier. Every word he said is correct but, as usual. these points will be ignored by those with an agenda.

Of the 32 counties in Ireland, Kilkenny has the 21st biggest population. Yes, it is bigger than Longford or Fermanagh but it is also a lot smaller than Mayo or Donegal to name just two. Is there some cut-off population point whereby you have to be "competitive" in both sports and those below this point don't have to bother? Amazingly, someone from Donegal had the brass neck to criticise Kilkenny earlier on this thread. Isn't there a saying about people in glasshouses, etc? I have no wish to say anything derogatory about the Donegal hurlers but anyone from Donegal smug enough to look down on Kilkenny as a GAA county would really want to cop on to themselves.