A4 Race Pace

jimbo28

Is it just my lack of training or are A4 races faster this year .I dont remember them being as tough or as fast, they seem especially fast during sprint finishes.

buffalo

jimbo28 wrote: »

Is it just my lack of training or are A4 races faster this year .I dont remember them being as tough or as fast, they seem especially fast during sprint finishes.

I was comparing this year's Des Hanlon to last year's on Strava, and the pace was slower this year on any of the climbs - in one case by a full minute.

The fact that nearly A4 race I've been in this year has finished in a bunch sprint (Clonard, Bohermeen, Dunboyne) says to me that the pace is slower and no splits are happening. Although the fact that no breakaways have stuck says that the pace is higher in general, but maybe that's down to people increasing the tempo when breakaways form.

manwithaplan

Didn't race last year so I don't know but I have herard people say the racing is faster. There was no great pace up the hills today except for the last one and A4 didn't go up that last year.

Andalucia

never raced, but aching to give it a go - what kind of averag pace we talking? what kind of pace up any bit of a hill? thanks

jimbo28

ya........maybe its on the flat that i find quick at times, maybe its time to switch out the compact for a standard double. There seems to be alot of 30ish mph speeds on the flat and the bursts seem more frequent this year.I thought that the races were that bit more steady last year.Like i said maybe its just me!

busyliving

Andalucia wrote: »

never raced, but aching to give it a go - what kind of averag pace we talking? what kind of pace up any bit of a hill? thanks

Circa 38km/hr

iregk

jimbo28 wrote: »

There seems to be alot of 30ish mph speeds

Good god man what is wrong with you. No respect for the euro rules!!!!

jimbo28

Im from the west, pounds, inches and MILES MAN as in How far is galway? it musht be about 20-30 miles is it! Euro......ara sthop amach.

buffalo

Just compared last year and this year's LCRC GP (A4), and the average speed last year was 38.5kmph, and this year was 37.3kmph. And that's a pretty flat course.

Obviously, my tiny sample is not really a good indication of the overall situation, but I don't really have the motivation to hunt down the data for comparisons of all the races I've done this year!

DirkVoodoo

buffalo wrote: »

Obviously, my tiny sample is not really a good indication of the overall situation

That's what she said!

Jawgap

Andalucia wrote: »

never raced, but aching to give it a go - what kind of averag pace we talking? what kind of pace up any bit of a hill? thanks

Me too - even got a licence for this year, but having read this I'm having second thoughts:(

Stickybottle published the data for the A4 of the Lucan GP in Batterstown and it's sobering.

Lumen

Jawgap wrote: »

Me too - even got a licence for this year, but having read this I'm having second thoughts:(

Stickybottle published the data for the A4 of the Lucan GP in Batterstown and it's sobering.

Jesus, that's sobering indeed.

Assuming these peaks are all in the sprint, this was Joe's last minute of the race...

joker77

I didn't do open racing last year, but have found the pace in the A4 to be too easy for too long - if the races are always ending up in a bunch sprint then that confirms it for me, they are slow.

It's only the first few races and I suppose there are plenty of people (like myself) just testing the water, not prepared to attack the race too much. I think the pace will increase over the next few weeks as people get more comfortable with how to race.

jimbo28

Interesting stuff from the winners data on stickybottle, have never seen it that detailed before.

jimbo28

Am I right in saying that there was a cross-head wind on the sprint to the finish during the lucan grand prix? If so and this man got to 58 kph...........that is some going!

joker77

jimbo28 wrote: »

Am I right in saying that there was a cross-head wind on the sprint to the finish during the lucan grand prix? If so and this man got to 58 kph...........that is some going!

Yea there was a pretty strong wind blowing right to left. I was told this several times before the race, and everyone seemed to know about it, the plan being to stay on the left hand side of the road until the end. I think the guy who won was in the middle, sheltered until the last 30 metres or so, in a good position to just power through the home stretch, fair play to him.

petethedrummer

Jawgap wrote: »

Me too - even got a licence for this year, but having read this I'm having second thoughts:(

Being dropped is character building.

Edit: Also if you do get dropped, the 30-45 mins you spend busting your gut hanging on will do you more good than a 3 hour sunday spin on your own.

mloc123

189watts average for the winner of the A4? Is that really all you need to hold to stay in the group?

Seve OB

I've never raced before and am thinking I wouldn't mind giving it a go, although at an average speed of 38kmph I don't think I am ready anytime soon.....

Is there a lower race bracket I could join that would go a bit slower?

I've only started and probably an average speed of 30kmph would be as much as I've done for about 60k.

How far do the races be also?

lennymc

im gonna go racing for the crack, and fully expect to be dropped everywhere, but at least ill be lapping the people on the couch!!

@jawgap - your up by me iirc, the drogheda wheelers club league will be starting at some stage - maybe sign up for that? Thats my plan anyway - do a few club races and take it from there.

joker77

stevieob wrote: »

I've never raced before and am thinking I wouldn't mind giving it a go, although at an average speed of 38kmph I don't think I am ready anytime soon.....

Is there a lower race bracket I could join that would go a bit slower?

I've only started and probably an average speed of 30kmph would be as much as I've done for about 60k.

How far do the races be also?

Do you do 30 on your own training? For how long?

If you can sustain 30 for an hour on your own, 38 in a bunch will be no problem.

joker77

mloc123 wrote: »

189watts average for the winner of the A4? Is that really all you need to hold to stay in the group?

Probably yea, if you're clever

There's plenty of people in A4 who are prepared to do all the work up the front dragging the sprinters round the course only to get burned at the end... It's a bit of a joke at this stage.

Any attack that goes is immediately chased down with venom, only for the pace to drop right down again.

Why, oh why, do people feel the need to 'do work' up the front, in a race with big fat sprinters sitting in behind them laughing???

Lusk Doyle

petethedrummer wrote: »

Being dropped is character building.

Edit: Also if you do get dropped, the 30-45 mins you spend busting your gut hanging on will do you more good than a 3 hour sunday spin on your own.

I can testify to that! Spent a good few of the league races on my own having been spat out the back! Bog of the ring is not a course to be on your own chasing :mad:

seamus

I actually feel a bit sick just looking at those times, but I suppose I should try have a go at a lap of the circuit to see what it's like.

buffalo

The times you do in races cannot be compared to the times you do solo. Being in a bunch of 80 or 100 other riders means that the work is shared, and the average speed is far higher. As said above, if you can do an average of 30kmph on a long spin, then 38-40kmph in a group is well within your abilities.

chakattack

mloc123 wrote: »

189watts average for the winner of the A4? Is that really all you need to hold to stay in the group?

that includes lots of coasting and isn't constant power. It's easy to hang on in a flat a4 race but hard and risky at the business end to get a place

jimbo28

I agree, if you average 30kph on your own, you will have no problem with the average speed.That said it will be the fluctuations in speed that may get you in the first few races.

petethedrummer

mloc123 wrote: »

189watts average for the winner of the A4? Is that really all you need to hold to stay in the group?

The average is not difficult at all, there are times (the good times) when its all rather pedestrian. It's the repeated accelerations out of the corners and sometimes up the drags and the occasional mass acceleration for no particular reason. You (or rather I) have to dip into the red repeatedly and that's what wears your legs down. Well thats what its like at the middle to back. The front of the group is a slightly more constant effort.

Basically being able to follow when someone else decides to put the hammer down. Not just setting your own pace and hammering it when you feel strong.

seamus

buffalo wrote: »

The times you do in races cannot be compared to the times you do solo. Being in a bunch of 80 or 100 other riders means that the work is shared, and the average speed is far higher. As said above, if you can do an average of 30kmph on a long spin, then 38-40kmph in a group is well within your abilities.

Depends on the solo spin though I suppose
I've done a flat 100km sportive @ over 30km/h average, but throw in a few serious hills and I'll be well below that

That said, I've never actually gone out on a solo spin and just aimed to hammer it for a couple of hours. Might be worth hammering around the green sheds circuit for an hour some day to see what it's like. Doesn't seem to be any serious hills on it.

Lucifer-0

petethedrummer wrote: »

The average is not difficult at all, there are times (the good times) when its all rather pedestrian. It's the repeated accelerations out of the corners and sometimes up the drags and the occasional mass acceleration for no particular reason. You (or rather I) have to dip into the red repeatedly and that's what wears your legs down. Well thats what its like at the middle to back. The front of the group is a slightly more constant effort.

Basically being able to follow when someone else decides to put the hammer down. Not just setting your own pace and hammering it when you feel strong.

I think this is what scares me most - cornering.
I can hold 30kph on my own for 2 hours no bother, and yesterday in the lap of Laois while in a bunch we were doing 35-40kph for large chunks of it and I felt comfortable. But they were tearing into some corners and I just didn't feel like I had the ability (or confidence) to do what they done around the bends. After every round about or dodgy turn I was spat out and had to bust a gut to catch them.

manwithaplan

In my brief experience, it's virtually impossible to get away on the flat in A4. On the other hand, it's very possible to get away on a decent drag. I am learning to curb my attacking instincts and pick the right moment.

Having said that, if I have no chance in a bunch sprint on a flat course (and I don't), I have no problem putting in a decent shift, getting some benefit from the race and making the bigger boned competitors work for their money.

joker77

manwithaplan wrote: »

In my brief experience, it's virtually impossible to get away on the flat in A4. On the other hand, it's very possible to get away on a decent drag. I am learning to curb my attacking instincts and pick the right moment.

Having said that, if I have no chance in a bunch sprint on a flat course (and I don't), I have no problem putting in a decent shift, getting some benefit from the race and making the bigger boned competitors work for their money.

My point above is this though - if you're 'working' up the front and just dragging the bunch round, yea you're getting some good training in yourself, but unless you are attacking off the front - you are not making the bigger boned competitors work - if they're 4 or 5 bikes back a couple of extra kms/hr is negligible.

I think that in general the A4 group is quite strong, but there's a fear of breakaways that is something else. If 2 guys go up the road, and you're up near the front - why drag the bunch up to them, why not sprint off yourself and try to make it 3 guys?

I suppose it's all a learning curve, I've probably been guilty of dragging the bunch up myself over the past couple of weeks.

Lumen

mloc123 wrote: »

189watts average for the winner of the A4? Is that really all you need to hold to stay in the group?

I averaged 224W (248W NP), I'm skinnier, and I didn't go anywhere near the front all race. Must improve my wheelsucking.

Lusk Doyle

petethedrummer wrote: »

repeated accelerations out of the corners

This is what I find hard to keep up with also. You do have to bust a gut to get back on board going through the corners as some lads have nerves of steel and power through regardless of the "Gravel!" shouts.

kenmc

stevieob wrote: »

I've never raced before and am thinking I wouldn't mind giving it a go, although at an average speed of 38kmph I don't think I am ready anytime soon.....

Is there a lower race bracket I could join that would go a bit slower?

I've only started and probably an average speed of 30kmph would be as much as I've done for about 60k.

How far do the races be also?

You were complaining about the noise from your helmet, and now you want to go racing with a load of guys riding wheels that go whoosh! :eek:

buffalo

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

This is what I find hard to keep up with also. You do have to bust a gut to get back on board going through the corners as some lads have nerves of steel and power through regardless of the "Gravel!" shouts.

There's also the accordion effect - http://www.startbikeracing.com/index.php/road-racing/strategy-skills/125-criterium-cornering

Essentially, the further back in the bunch you are, the harder you'll have to work to get around corners. Try to get a position toward the front before any sharp turns.

kenmc

buffalo wrote: »

Essentially, the further back in the bunch you are, the harder you'll have to work to get around corners. Try to get a position toward the front before any sharp turns.

Yeah but that's what EVERYONE is told, and what EVERYONE tries to do. There's only room for 20 people in the first 20 places! At that's what leads to some rediculously bad riding.

buffalo

kenmc wrote: »

Yeah but that's what EVERYONE is told, and what EVERYONE tries to do. There's only room for 20 people in the first 20 places! At that's what leads to some rediculously bad riding.

Hey, I'm just passing on the lessons I learned the hard way! When you're doing up and overs with one other person trying to catch a bunch that's long gone, you take the positioning lesson to heart. Though it's not so bad in the A4 races.

Lusk Doyle

buffalo wrote: »

Though it's not so bad in the A4 races.

It huffing well IS!!!

chakattack

buffalo wrote: »

Just compared last year and this year's LCRC GP (A4), and the average speed last year was 38.5kmph, and this year was 37.3kmph. And that's a pretty flat course.

Obviously, my tiny sample is not really a good indication of the overall situation, but I don't really have the motivation to hunt down the data for comparisons of all the races I've done this year![/Quote

Not a like for like comparison -only two laps last year and don't think it was too windy. I think races are faster this year, winds have been pretty light so far though. Almost 37km average at the des hanlon yday on a hilly course...the first 35k felt much faster than last year and the climbing at steady speed was easy enough overall but with hard surges and the top and bottom of each climb

petethedrummer

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

This is what I find hard to keep up with also. You do have to bust a gut to get back on board going through the corners as some lads have nerves of steel and power through regardless of the "Gravel!" shouts.

Lucifer-0 wrote: »

I think this is what scares me most - cornering.
I can hold 30kph on my own for 2 hours no bother, and yesterday in the lap of Laois while in a bunch we were doing 35-40kph for large chunks of it and I felt comfortable. But they were tearing into some corners and I just didn't feel like I had the ability (or confidence) to do what they done around the bends.

I dunno, the speed entering and going through the corners has been fairly slow in the two races I've been in. I've never felt on the limit of grip. Probably because I have been right at the back and everyone has accordioned right up by the time I get there. Then exiting you have to be up and out of the saddle ready to give a bit of a dig, moreso than the lads to the front.

Lusk Doyle

Lucifer-0 wrote: »

But they were tearing into some corners and I just didn't feel like I had the ability (or confidence) to do what they done around the bends.

I suppose that the lesson to take from this is that if you don't actually fall and cream yourself powering through a corner then keep trying cos you can actually do it! That's the way to build confidence!

Wasn't is Chris Akabusi who made the famous "Positive Mental Attitude" yarn...?

buffalo

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

It huffing well IS!!!

Come back to me when you've been silly enough to take part in a Cat 2 race!

A4 is hard, but it's rare that people are dropped completely on a corner.

Lumen

buffalo wrote: »

A4 is hard, but it's rare that people are dropped completely on a corner.

If you hang far enough off the back you can scoot round most corners without braking at all, rejoining the back of the bunch 50m or so after the corner.

This works until you cock it up and find yourself staring at a completely empty road ahead of you.

manwithaplan

joker77 wrote: »

If 2 guys go up the road, and you're up near the front - why drag the bunch up to them, why not sprint off yourself and try to make it 3 guys?

I wouldn't be at all interested in dragging the bunch up to a breakaway and I would happily bridge across to anything that looked like it had the remotest chance of success.

I wouldn't say all effort up the front is wasted. I worked hard at both Dundalk and Navan this year unsuccessfully trying to get away. In the first case, I got up in the slowest sprint known to man - my guess is that most of the bunch was fairly wrecked at that stage (it was February!). At Navan there was only about 20 left in the group at the end (this was due to the efforts of a good few riders). I didn't get up but I had a much better chance than if I was there at the end with a load of fresh sprinters. In fairness, neither course was exactly flat.

joker77

I wasn't there in Dundalk, but was there for Navan and yea I know what you mean in that one. There was a concerted effort up at the front to push it all day - there were a couple of sections where it lined out and I really had to work to stay up near the front, apart from yesterday that was the toughest race for me.

Morrisseeee

buffalo wrote: »

A4 is hard, but it's rare that people are dropped completely on a corner.

It depends on the corner tho ! I'm thinking of that corner in Caherconlish (RAS Luimni) where immediatley following a sharp left hand bend is a long painful drag, now if you are struggling or are only starting out, you're going to get dropped.
Also in the Carrick race last week there were 2 fast bends before the long drag and I actually got squeezed back and when I got to the top of the drag I had some chasing to do to catch the main bunch (2 or 3km @ 45km/h). As a newbie last year I wouldn't have had the requied power to do that.

For what it's worth to newbies starting out, it took me a year to get up to speed with the A4 bunch but not only that, & more importantly, is to also have the power to do the 'drags' and the chasing that's required.

Jawgap

lennymc wrote: »

im gonna go racing for the crack, and fully expect to be dropped everywhere, but at least ill be lapping the people on the couch!!

@jawgap - your up by me iirc, the drogheda wheelers club league will be starting at some stage - maybe sign up for that? Thats my plan anyway - do a few club races and take it from there.

I've already thrown my money at Swords - will my membership there cover me to race elsewhere (Stamullen?)

I'll probably still give it a go anyway.

levitronix

Lumen wrote: »

Jesus, that's sobering indeed.

Assuming these peaks are all in the sprint, this was Joe's last minute of the race...

with those numbers he wont be long in A4, that blows me out of the water,i came now where near to 56kph on that uphill sprint, i had 1157 peak for my sprint but held 1033 for 20 secs, np 292 average power 251

Plastik

With a 2nd in the St. Patrick's Day races and a 1st at the Des Hanlon he has already gathered the requisite 10 points. I suppose it's up to him to decide whether to race A4 in the next outing or wait until CI notify him of a license upgrade? Does that usually take long?

lennymc

so licence application gone in, club kit bought, arm twisted to do the club race 'ras na nog' on 22nd april.........