Dual Passport Query

Assassin saphir

I currently hold an Irish passport as I live here and have an irish mother. I was born in the uk and my father is British. I was on his passport as a child. My irish passport is due for renewal and I would like to know can I apply for a dual passport and what exactly a dual passport is?
Thanks for your help

johnfás

You are entitled to have two passports, an Irish one and a British one. There is no combination of the two in a single passport. If you're not bothered one way or the other go for whichever is cheaper but if you would like you are entitled to hold both.

Strictly

If I were in your position I would get two Passports. There are situations when it is good to have an Irish one and other times it is better to have an English one. I have a friend who lives in Canada (her parents are Irish but she was born in Canada) and uses her Irish one to enter Ireland when she comes on hols here and her Canadian one to enter Canada on her return. No long Qs.

Our man in Havana

uses her Irish one to enter Ireland when she comes on hols here and her Canadian one to enter Canada on her return.

By law you must do that anyways.

johnfás

Our man in Havana wrote: »

By law you must do that anyways.

What law?

Our man in Havana

Canadian immigration law and Irish law.

FreudianSlippers

Our man in Havana wrote: »

By law you must do that anyways.

I actually think like the USA, the Canadian rules state that you must use your Canadian passport when entering and leaving the country; but what you do after that is your own business.

I don't have a source for that, but it is firmly in my brain for some reason (certainly to the detriment of other useful information).

johnfás

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Canadian immigration law and Irish law.

Never come across that in the Irish immigration legislation I have to say.

Victor

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I actually think like the USA, the Canadian rules state that you must use your Canadian passport when entering and leaving the country; but what you do after that is your own business.

Notably, leaving one country and entering another are two separate things.

Strictly

My reading of what my friend said was she used the Canadian PP entering Canada and the Irish one entering Ireland. She always had both with her when she was travelling. There was less fuss and red tape and was quicker when she did it that way!

Pkiernan

Assassin saphir wrote: »

I currently hold an Irish passport as I live here and have an irish mother. I was born in the uk and my father is British. I was on his passport as a child. My irish passport is due for renewal and I would like to know can I apply for a dual passport and what exactly a dual passport is?
Thanks for your help

To get back on topic, OP, there is no such thing as a "Dual Passport", however, if one qualifies, one is entitled to Dual Citizenship, and depending on the countries involved even more.

You would appear to be entitled to hold more than one passport.

Here is a link on how to apply from Ireland:

http://britishembassyinireland.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/passports/how-to-apply-a-z/ireland

However, the last time I renewed my UK passport (some time early 2011), I did it at the British Embassy in Dublin. They told me there that from the middle of 2011, all applications would have to be made in the UK (at Milton Keynes if I recall), and that the Embassy would not provide for renewals or new applications.

It would now appear that they have not enacted this policy yet.

By the way, unlike the pathetic Dublin Passport Office, expect to get your new passports in 10 days (assuming you are in fact eligible).

Our man in Havana

However, the last time I renewed my UK passport (some time early 2011), I did it at the British Embassy in Dublin. They told me there that from the middle of 2011, all applications would have to be made in the UK (at Milton Keynes if I recall), and that the Embassy would not provide for renewals or new applications.

You are partly correct.

The embassy no longer issues any passports or processes any applications. They do however forward your paperwork to the FCO in Milton Keynes where the applications are actually processed and the passports are made there. You have to pay for DHL to get your passport back to you.

Dandelion6

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I actually think like the USA, the Canadian rules state that you must use your Canadian passport when entering and leaving the country; but what you do after that is your own business.

Neither the US nor Canada requires their citizens to use their passports when leaving the country, for the simple reason that neither country has exit controls.

Irish law, incidentally, doesn't require Irish citizens to enter on Irish passports, although if entering on a non-EU passport you'd probably want to have a Stamp 6 in it to show that you're entitled to remain with no conditions.

Our man in Havana

And to get stamp 6 you will need to produce an Irish passport.

I had trouble a while back where Irish immigration would not accept my other passport which is an EU passport. They demanded to see my Irish passport. I was then told not to be producing foreign documents when I am an Irish citizen.

johnfás

Our man in Havana wrote: »

And to get stamp 6 you will need to produce an Irish passport.

I had trouble a while back where Irish immigration would not accept my other passport which is an EU passport. They demanded to see my Irish passport. I was then told not to be producing foreign documents when I am an Irish citizen.

I'd love to know the legislative basis for that. Never seen it myself. There's alot of nonsense goes on at the airport. You can go through on a drivers licence if you're an Irish citizen but they're not going to tell you that.

Dandelion6

Our man in Havana wrote: »

And to get stamp 6 you will need to produce an Irish passport.

Not necessarily.

I had trouble a while back where Irish immigration would not accept my other passport which is an EU passport. They demanded to see my Irish passport. I was then told not to be producing foreign documents when I am an Irish citizen.

They were just bullying you. There's no legal basis for this demand.

Peregrinus

johnfás wrote: »

I'd love to know the legislative basis for that. Never seen it myself. There's alot of nonsense goes on at the airport. You can go through on a drivers licence if you're an Irish citizen but they're not going to tell you that.

The problem there is that the possession of an Irish driver's licence does not prove that you are an Irish citizen - you don't have to be a citizen to sit and pass the test. So, yes, once you can identify yourself as an Irish citizen you must be admitted to Ireland. Producing the driver's licence identifies you, but you will need something more to establish your citizenship. That's what the passport is for. There are other, less convenient, ways to establish your citizenship and you are welcome to use them, but why would you want to?

As regards Irish versus other EU passports, there is a general principle of non-discrimination in EU law, so the argument goes that the Irish authorities should not prefer the use of Irish passports over other EU passports.

Our man in Havana

They seem to do so. The give away for them is when they look at my foreign passport it says my place of birth is Ireland. Once they see this they demand to see an Irish passport.

If I was to revoke my Irish citizenship they would be unable to make such demands.

FreudianSlippers

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Neither the US nor Canada requires their citizens to use their passports when leaving the country, for the simple reason that neither country has exit controls.

Irish law, incidentally, doesn't require Irish citizens to enter on Irish passports, although if entering on a non-EU passport you'd probably want to have a Stamp 6 in it to show that you're entitled to remain with no conditions.

The US State Department would disagree with you.

Thank you for contacting the United States Department of State.

U.S. citizens who are also citizens of another nation are reminded that U.S. law requires they enter and depart the United States carrying a valid U.S. passport. U.S. citizens who attempt to travel to the U.S. from a foreign country on foreign passports risk being denied boarding or re-entering pending acquisition of a valid U.S. passport. For additional information about dual nationality, visit: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

For further information, please refer to our website www.travel.state.gov or call (877) 487-2778, for TDD/TTY users 1-888-874-7793 (Mon-Fri 8:00AM to 10:00PM ET; excluding federal holidays). If you need to contact us again by email, please include all prior messages/correspondence in your reply so we can review what has previously taken place.

Thank you.

Agent # ****


THIS EMAIL IS UNCLASSIFIED

I remembered last night that I had emailed them after I got a lot of grief from a US CBP Agent Officer here in Dublin about a year ago and contacted the State Department to ensure I was correct (and I was). You are technically correct in that U.S. CBP do not check when you leave (although your airline will check 100% of the time) but it is still not fully in compliance with the rules. Interestingly, the Irish immigration Gardaí will tell you to enter Ireland on your Irish passport and leave on whatever passport you want.

I think I get a lot of **** from them because I travel a lot back and forth and they want to know how I got my US citizenship (which is a rather long story).

johnfás

Our man in Havana wrote: »

They seem to do so. The give away for them is when they look at my foreign passport it says my place of birth is Ireland. Once they see this they demand to see an Irish passport.

If I was to revoke my Irish citizenship they would be unable to make such demands.

I regularly travel through Dublin airport on both an Irish and another EU passport and it's never been an issue. I'd never carry both at once so I wouldn't be able to produce the other on demand. I'd take the name of whoever was trying to bully me with what seems to have no basis though. That said, whenever I've had to deal with the immigration officers at the airport in a professional capacity they've been decent enough.

Our man in Havana

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The US State Department would disagree with you.




I got a lot of grief from a US CBP Agent Officer here in Dublin about a year ago and contacted the State Department to ensure I was correct (and I was). You are technically correct in that U.S. CBP do not check when you leave (although your airline will check 100% of the time) but it is still not fully in compliance with the rules. Interestingly, the Irish immigration Gardaí will tell you to enter Ireland on your Irish passport and leave on whatever passport you want.

I think I get a lot of **** from them because I travel a lot back and forth and they want to know how I got my US citizenship (which is a rather long story).

In the US the airlines are effectively operating the exit controls on behalf of the CBP. The used to collect the I94 stubs and forward them to the CBP so you were properly marked as having left the US.

I could issues if a US citizen attempted to fly to Ireland and produced the Irish passport to check in with. CBP would have no record of that passport being used to enter the US and could deduce that the person tendering was an illegal.

FreudianSlippers

Our man in Havana wrote: »

In the US the airlines are effectively operating the exit controls on behalf of the CBP. The used to collect the I94 stubs and forward them to the CBP so you were properly marked as having left the US.

I could issues if a US citizen attempted to fly to Ireland and produced the Irish passport to check in with. CBP would have no record of that passport being used to enter the US and could deduce that the person tendering was an illegal.

hm. That poses an interesting issue. I've been presenting my US passport at check-in (returning to Ireland), then being asked about my visa for Ireland. Upon telling them I'm Irish (born and citizen) they just ask for the Irish passport from there.

So, that could be why I get interrogated at US CBP!

Dandelion6

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

You are technically correct in that U.S. CBP do not check when you leave (although your airline will check 100% of the time) but it is still not fully in compliance with the rules.

This is what you quoted as "the rules":

U.S. citizens who are also citizens of another nation are reminded that U.S. law requires they enter and depart the United States carrying a valid U.S. passport.

Sorry to nitpick but that quote says that US citizens are required to carry a US passport when they leave the US, not that they are required to use it. Saying that you can't travel outside the US without having your US passport on you is not the same as saying you are obliged by law to show that US passport at the time that you leave, particularly as the only people who you'll have to show it to are airline/airport staff and not US immigration agents.

Our man in Havana wrote:

I could issues if a US citizen attempted to fly to Ireland and produced the Irish passport to check in with. CBP would have no record of that passport being used to enter the US and could deduce that the person tendering was an illegal.

But so what, since you're on your way out of the US anyway. I'm not sure CBP would even get this info, or would get it before you were gone. Seems to me the issue would only arise if you tried to re-enter on the same foreign passport, which as a US citizen you wouldn't do, would you?

PseudoFamous

Our man in Havana wrote: »

They seem to do so. The give away for them is when they look at my foreign passport it says my place of birth is Ireland. Once they see this they demand to see an Irish passport.

If I was to revoke my Irish citizenship they would be unable to make such demands.

I hold both an Irish and a Danish passport (Don't ask specifics, all I know is that I renew them when they run out), and I've never encountered this issue, having used the Danish and Irish passports for entry to various countries, and my POB is also Ireland. I usually just use whichever I find first, I don't really think too hard about it.

Marcusm

Our man in Havana wrote: »

They seem to do so. The give away for them is when they look at my foreign passport it says my place of birth is Ireland. Once they see this they demand to see an Irish passport.

If I was to revoke my Irish citizenship they would be unable to make such demands.

Once they have established your rights to enter, I don't think that they have jy lawful authority to demand proof of ID. gardai generally can only require this under specified rules (misuse of drugs etc).

I was once told by a guard at Dublin airport that it was mandatory for me as an Irish citizen to carry formal iD with me at all times while walking around Ireland. I informed him that it was necessar only for me tO establish with him that I was entitled under the Common Travel Areas rules to establish that I was not subject to immigration control (ie he could question me to establish whether he believed I was eItuer an Irish or British citizen) and did not require documentar proof. Further I told him that there was no provisiOn of Irish law requiring me to carry formal state issued ID while walking on the street. He acted like a knob so he got it back. I could see his attitude in advance as he practically made an old lady cry by shouting at her.

Peregrinus

Our man in Havana wrote: »

They seem to do so. The give away for them is when they look at my foreign passport it says my place of birth is Ireland. Once they see this they demand to see an Irish passport.

If your foreign passport states that you were born in Ireland then you are probably, but not definitely, an Irish citizen. Firstly, it's possible (though rare) to be born in Ireland and not be an Irish citizen. Secondly, you may have falsely told a foreign government that you were born in Ireland and, without demanding the evidence that the Irish government would demand, they may have issued you a passport stating so. (It doesn't have the same implications for them, after all, as it does for the Irish state, so they wouln't necessarily verify it as rigorously.)

So, if you're entering Ireland on the basis that you are an Irish citizen, they want better evidence that you are an Irish citizen than a foreign passport stating that you were born in Ireland.

Most countries require their citizens who are dual nationals to enter and leave using the nationality of that country; Ireland is not unusual in this regard. Where Ireland differs from the US is that Ireland is a member of the EU, and there is some question over whether an EU country can enforce this rule where the second nationality is another EU nationality. So far as I know this question has never been settled authoritatively; in the meantime Ireland and other countries continue to prefer their citizens to use their passports.

Our man in Havana wrote: »

If I was to revoke my Irish citizenship they would be unable to make such demands.

Yes. But you can only renounce your citizenship in limited circumstances. You have to be ordinarily resident outside Ireland, and your reason for renouncing citizenship has to be connected with the possession or acquisition of another citizenship - i.e. the other country won't accept dual nationality, and requires you to renounce your Irish citizenship in order to retain or obtain their citizenship. If you're not in that situation - and it doesn't sound as if you are - then you can't renounce your Irish citizenship.

johnfás

There is no law that says an Irish citizen who holds two passports must enter the State on an Irish passport. Point me to the legislative provision that requires this.

Being born in Ireland does not disqualify a person from holding multiple citizenships from other countries so long as they fulfil the requirements for citizenship in those countries.

Our man in Havana

A person is free to renounce their Irish citizenship if they are a citizen of another state.

Peregrinus

Our man in Havana wrote: »

A person is free to renounce their Irish citizenship if they are a citizen of another state.

No, you have to be ordinarily resident outside Ireland. Plus, you have to be renouncing your Irish citizenship because of your other citizenship; Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956 s. 21 (as amended).

Peregrinus

johnfás wrote: »

There is no law that says an Irish citizen who holds two passports must enter the State on an Irish passport. Point me to the legislative provision that requires this.

That's right, there is no law. But it has always been public policy that if an Irish citizen holds a second nationality, the Irish state disregards his second nationality, and treats him just like any other Irish citizen. (So a dual national who is arrested in Ireland, for example, doesn't have the right to consular assistance from the state of his second nationality.) You can see this as grounded, if you like, in the constitutional guarantee of the equality of citizens; you deal with the Irish state as an Irish national and you don't get any preferential (or disadvantageous) treatment as a result of your second nationality.

In the context of entering Ireland, if you're an Irish citizen then your right to enter Ireland rests on your Irish citizenship, and the fact that you are also a national of (say) Sweden and so have a right of entry as an EU national is irrelevant; the Irish authorities look to your Irish nationality, not your Swedish nationality. So it's not your Swedish nationality you need to prove at the point of entry; it's your Irish nationality. And your Swedish passport isn't good enough for that, even if it shows you were born in Ireland.

Ellis Dee

Our man in Havana wrote: »

And to get stamp 6 you will need to produce an Irish passport.

I had trouble a while back where Irish immigration would not accept my other passport which is an EU passport. They demanded to see my Irish passport. I was then told not to be producing foreign documents when I am an Irish citizen.

I have never experienced anything like that, although my Irish passport expired about two years ago and I haven't gotten round to renewing it yet. One official, seeing my very Irish surname, commented, quite good humouredly, "**** is a good old Finnish name" when I showed him my Finnish passport.


I think I'll just show the new credit-card-sized ID card, which is valid in all EU countries, when I next pass through the airport the day after tomorrow.

http://www.infopankki.fi/File/6681e869-8d14-46b7-abfe-56e4928475e1/0/Henkil%C3%B6kortti.jpg

Peregrinus

Ellis Dee wrote: »

I have never experienced anything like that, although my Irish passport expired about two years ago and I haven't gotten round to renewing it yet. One official, seeing my very Irish surname, commented, quite good humouredly, "**** is a good old Finnish name" when I showed him my Finnish passport.


I think I'll just show the new credit-card-sized ID card, which is valid in all EU countries, when I next pass through the airport the day after tomorrow.

You are at the mercy of the officials. If he believes that you are an Irish national, he can decline to admit you on the basis of your Finnish nationality (though in fact it's very unlkely that he will). From this point of view, even an expired Irish passport is better evidence of Irish nationality than a current Finnish ID card or Finnish passport (since it shows that you were an Irish national at one time, and it's extremely rare to lose Irish nationality) .

Carawaystick

Just playing devils advocate.
If you were born after the citizenship referendum, then being born here is no guarantee of citizenship?

But if you were born here before the Good Friday Referendum, then the meaning of Ireland to the state workers is different, no? i.e. at the time it meant the island of Ireland

So you could be a former unionist after taking up the citizenship of another country (the Netherlands?), born in Ireland, not an irish citizen...

Peregrinus

Carawaystick wrote: »

Just playing devils advocate.
If you were born after the citizenship referendum, then being born here is no guarantee of citizenship?

But if you were born here before the Good Friday Referendum, then the meaning of Ireland to the state workers is different, no? i.e. at the time it meant the island of Ireland

So you could be a former unionist after taking up the citizenship of another country (the Netherlands?), born in Ireland, not an irish citizen...

Irish nationality law was changed in 1999, but with retrospective effect, so the same rules apply regardless of whether you were born before or after 1999.

When I said that it was possible to be born in Ireland and not to have Irish nationality I was actually thinking of the relatively straightforward case of the child of a diplomat. If, say, the Swedish ambassador to Ireland has a child born in Ireland, that child is a Swedish citizen but not an Irish citizen, and in later years will have Swedish passport showing his country of birth as "Ireland".

But, as you point out, it's also possible to be born in Ireland and not to be an Irish citizen if you are born with another citizenship, and never take up the Irish citizenship to which you are or (if born after 2005) may be entitled.

Victor

Peregrinus wrote: »

If, say, the Swedish ambassador to Ireland has a child born in Ireland, that child is a Swedish citizen but not an Irish citizen, and in later years will have Swedish passport showing his country of birth as "Ireland".

Isn't there a right of election with this?

Peregrinus

Victor wrote: »

Isn't there a right of election with this?

Only for people born within a fairly small window - between 1999 and 2005, if I remember rightly, but I could be wrong about the dates. They retain their right of election but anybody born before of after that window never had a right, and still doesn't.