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Queries about medical intern year

  • 23-03-2012 8:08pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16


    Hello people. I'm a recent medicine graduate from Italy and I'm going to take my internship in Ireland. I thoroughly read all guides and papers I found but I still have got some unresolved points.
    First of all, when are we supposed to register to the medical council? Do HSE send us the form when it's time?
    Secondly, I read on HSE website that NCHDs get a leave and a 450 € refund for training courses like ACLS. But does that apply for interns too? And how easy is it to get the leave?
    Thanks in advance to anyone replying.


Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,669 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Hello people. I'm a recent medicine graduate from Italy and I'm going to take my internship in Ireland. I thoroughly read all guides and papers I found but I still have got some unresolved points.
    First of all, when are we supposed to register to the medical council? Do HSE send us the form when it's time?
    Secondly, I read on HSE website that NCHDs get a leave and a 450 € refund for training courses like ACLS. But does that apply for interns too? And how easy is it to get the leave?
    Thanks in advance to anyone replying.

    Its up to you to register with the medical council. Contact them ASAP and get in the required documnets in ASAP as they are not very quick (and thats being polite).

    Technically you are entitled to study leave but it depends on there being cover in place. For a course such as the ACLS it shouldn't be too difficult.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 david_defoe


    Thank you very much. Good thing I asked here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 david_defoe


    Me again. I just stumbled upon a page in the medical council site saying all doctors need an indemnity insurance to practice. I was never told that before! I searched around but I only found insurances for GPs. How does it work for NCHDs? In Italy we're given an insurance when we're hired from the hospital, isn't it the same there?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭GradMed


    Indemnity insurance from the hospital is not sufficient. You can contact mps, or there may be others offering this service.

    http://www.medicalprotection.org/ireland/intern

    Actually the mps site seems a tad broken, I'm sending you the email of the rep that spoke to our class. She should be able to help
    Best of luck.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 david_defoe


    Thank you, you've been very helpful.

    Actually, since everyday seems to emerge some new issue, I thought I'd better sum up what I understood about the whole process so you guys can tell me what is wrong or missing, if you want. I'd be very grateful if you did, since as you may have noticed I had to figure out everything by myself.

    First of all, what you need for intern year is:
    • application to HSE
    • registration to council
    • overseas police clearance
    • indemnity insurance
    • ???
    The documents you need for application and registration are listed on the forms. Registration form is to be sent on these days; you also have to pay a 245 € fee. Hope next week isn't too late, I still have to get my degree translated...
    Police clearance must be taken when you get the post; dunno about insurance, will ask the rep.
    There's nothing else, is there? :confused:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    additional indemnity insurance is not a requirement if you are practicing in a state/HSE facility as the public hospitals have a Clinical Indemnity Scheme. Basically, you are covered for basic medical indemnity while working for the HSE. CIS is a national programme, and doesn't require you to fill any particular forms or do anything special to be part of it. It's for hospitals as employers, and as an employee you are automatically covered under it.

    But the burden of care falls on the doctor, so having additional indemnity is not so much the indemnity but also the legal advice you can get by being able to call e.g., MPS advisors about the dubious things you might end up being involved in. And working in the HSE, there is a good chance that you will need legal advice at some stage.

    http://www.stateclaims.ie/ClinicalIndemnityScheme/introduction.html

    "Non-consultant hospital doctors, nurses and other clinical staff employed by health agencies whether permanent, locum or temporary;"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭foreverandever


    Have you already applied to the HSE? Because the date for intern applications was before Christmas and the garda clearance should be done by the stage too. I think the job list should be out as well


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 david_defoe


    dissed doc wrote: »
    additional indemnity insurance is not a requirement if you are practicing in a state/HSE facility as the public hospitals have a Clinical Indemnity Scheme. Basically, you are covered for basic medical indemnity while working for the HSE. CIS is a national programme, and doesn't require you to fill any particular forms or do anything special to be part of it. It's for hospitals as employers, and as an employee you are automatically covered under it.

    But the burden of care falls on the doctor, so having additional indemnity is not so much the indemnity but also the legal advice you can get by being able to call e.g., MPS advisors about the dubious things you might end up being involved in. And working in the HSE, there is a good chance that you will need legal advice at some stage.

    http://www.stateclaims.ie/ClinicalIndemnityScheme/introduction.html

    "Non-consultant hospital doctors, nurses and other clinical staff employed by health agencies whether permanent, locum or temporary;"

    Thanks, it's clearer now.
    Have you already applied to the HSE? Because the date for intern applications was before Christmas and the garda clearance should be done by the stage too. I think the job list should be out as well
    Sure I have! I may ignore some details, but I'm not that clueless ;)
    I already received confirmation by HSE of my admission to stage 2.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    Hello people. I'm a recent medicine graduate from Italy and I'm going to take my internship in Ireland. I thoroughly read all guides and papers I found but I still have got some unresolved points.
    First of all, when are we supposed to register to the medical council? Do HSE send us the form when it's time?
    Secondly, I read on HSE website that NCHDs get a leave and a 450 € refund for training courses like ACLS. But does that apply for interns too? And how easy is it to get the leave?
    Thanks in advance to anyone replying.

    Coming to this late and if I cover some stuff already covered I apologise
    1. Are you eligible to be an intern, some EU countries graduate doctors who are FULLY registered medical practitioners in their own countries when they leave medical school and if so you are unable to apply for internship -- I suggest you chek this as it would be a shame to find this out late in the process when applicantions for SHO jobs have passed ( I have a number of docs working in my hospital from Lithuania/Hungary who weer not eligible to be interns and went straight into Irish system for 1st job as SHO)
    2. It is your responsibility to achieve registration with medical council - will require a lot of dcoumnetation and translations so hopefully you have progressed this as (SEE POINT 1) in the evnt you must apply for SHO jobs you need to be registered prior to doing this OR you wil not be placed well in competition
    3. There is a central application for intern posts now BUT not all the posts will be filled this way as there are always a small number who back out (Fail final exam, pregnant/Sick/Die -- yes unfortunate word but there are 1-2 each year) so you need to be aware of this and contact hospitals directly after the 1st round of offers
    4. ALL Leave is at discretion of hospital, Annual leave is a legal right so you will get it BUT it may not be at a time of your choosing and for example you start your first job in July you may be told you are on holidays in the second week as holidays need to be scheduled to fit into the working year - Not a great time to take holidays
    5. Course Leave (ACLS/ATLS/APLS/MIMMS/NRP/MEDICALS/ALSO/PALS/ALERT) are all discretionary but you may request up to 7 days leave per year for such but hospital may not grant same - if course is on a certain list you may be eligible for refund up to €450 bit course fee may be a higher than that - Many hospitals run internal courses with non commercial fees and would be more likely to get leave for


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 david_defoe


    Thank you very much for your reply, especially for the info in points 4 and 5. Answering in order:
    1. Italian graduates are eligible according to the HSE guide, no worries about that.
    2. I sent my application to IMC just after my graduation (end of March) carefully providing all required documentation with official translation when needed; I'm currently waiting for an email answer.
    3. We will be told by email on 6th June what our rotation will be and we can't change it even if another post we like more gets free for any reason - if that is what you meant
    4. ALL Leave is at discretion of hospital: what kind of discretion? Do they make compromises between your demands and their needs or do they arrange your leave without even asking you anything?
    5. Many hospitals run internal courses...: that's very useful, I'm going to check out the websites of some hospitals I chose for rotation to see which courses they provide.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 david_defoe


    Alright, now I REALLY need someone's help.
    I applied for registration on March 30th: now I just received an email from IMC asking me whether I have already received a post offer from HSE, otherwise my application can't be further processed. But HSE will only give post offers on June 6th, why are they asking me this now? I thought I was supposed to apply for registration before knowing my assignment, because it takes a long time to get the certificate: are they asking this to all applicants?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    Alright, now I REALLY need someone's help.
    I applied for registration on March 30th: now I just received an email from IMC asking me whether I have already received a post offer from HSE, otherwise my application can't be further processed. But HSE will only give post offers on June 6th, why are they asking me this now? I thought I was supposed to apply for registration before knowing my assignment, because it takes a long time to get the certificate: are they asking this to all applicants?

    You need to go there and ask to meet them face to face in Medical Council

    You are on catch 22 scenario now -- wont be offered job without registration - wont be given registration without job offer

    That is ridiculous and anti free movement a la doctors directive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 david_defoe


    It truely is a ridiculous situation. They said it takes 6 to 8 weeks to get registered (if all papers are in order), I submitted my application ASAP exactly to avoid problems, instead I'm getting them!
    Now they are saying that they will process my application after receiving from HSE a list of doctors who were enrolled for the job. I'm not sure of how the whole thing works, can anybody please tell me if this is the normal procedure for everyone?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,629 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    This is one arm of the apparatus of the government/regulatory apparatus not co-ordinating with the other; not that different from last year's recruitment of NCHDs in India/Pakistan where insufficient effort was made by HSE in advance to understand what would be required to move from job offer to fully approved doctor. Is there a surplus of intern places for he coming year? Drzhiv will know; he sees to be well clued in!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    Marcusm wrote: »
    This is one arm of the apparatus of the government/regulatory apparatus not co-ordinating with the other; not that different from last year's recruitment of NCHDs in India/Pakistan where insufficient effort was made by HSE in advance to understand what would be required to move from job offer to fully approved doctor. Is there a surplus of intern places for he coming year? Drzhiv will know; he sees to be well clued in!

    Thanks for the compliment but dont have the complete answer just a generalism as a very fluid situation in recent years

    A lot more Irish nationals have been going to EU to study medicine and are now in the mix in the application for intern jobs also (where they are allowed to apply, as said earlier if they graduate with FULL Registration where they studied they are not eligible to be interns)

    A lot more Irish national s have gone to UK in last 5 years to study and are also expressing desire to come home as the internship process as it is in UK is 2 years and would leave them out of since with jobs here for 3 years as they would finish their second year after the turnover for jobs here so that is not as attractive unless someone wants to stay in UK.

    REGARDING TOTAL NUMBER Intern places - HSE MET should be able to give you that data (dont have a contact number). The medical schools have been increasing the numbers of graduates from Ireland/EU in las 5 years and this will be 1st year of larger numbers of Graduate Entry Med Students also

    The more places there are the more likely that a small number will not be filled because people get sick/pregnant/dont pass exam etc

    Things to Consider
    • Are you in Ireland now
    • HAve you registered with any of the locum agencies - There are occasionally locum intern vacancies as interns get sick midway through year too- that could force Medical council to speed up your application process
    • Have you gone to MEdical council Directly
    • Have you gone to Italian embassy to ask for help (am presuming you are italian)
    • For completeness local politicians help with issues such as this in Ireland , in addition the Minister for Health is a medical doctor, you could ask to meet hom and explain or get a politician to write to him asking question on your behalf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 david_defoe


    drzhivago wrote: »
    Things to Consider
    • Are you in Ireland now
    • HAve you registered with any of the locum agencies - There are occasionally locum intern vacancies as interns get sick midway through year too- that could force Medical council to speed up your application process
    • Have you gone to MEdical council Directly
    • Have you gone to Italian embassy to ask for help (am presuming you are italian)
    • For completeness local politicians help with issues such as this in Ireland , in addition the Minister for Health is a medical doctor, you could ask to meet hom and explain or get a politician to write to him asking question on your behalf
    1. Not yet
    2. No, I could try that, thanks
    3. No, just sent them the form and answered to their email
    4. I'm considering to contact the embassy, but I don't put much hope in that
    5. I hope I can solve my situation before arriving to that; maybe I'll contact the HSE first
    As for the availability of posts, EU citizens are given the same priority than Irish candidates for allocation and in the last years there were 4h something Irish/EU doctors for more than 500 posts, so theoretically I should get one for sure.
    Before making complaints to anyone I'm asking IMC when they are expecting to receive the "list" they need. HSE could actually already be making a list of eligible doctors, since the deadline for application was 13 April. Anyway, if the council say they won't begin to process my application before the first half of May, I'll take action somehow. Thank you for your support.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭foreverandever


    Irish medical students won't be registered until Mid-June with the IMC so I wouldn't worry too much just yet about them saying they won't register you for 6 weeks, I think it's all done together. Just be ready to register when the jobs come out on the 6th. Here's an interesting article for about the situation with jobs in Ireland currently

    http://www.imt.ie/news/latest-news/2012/04/alarm-over-the-lack-of-internship-posts.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 david_defoe


    Irish medical students won't be registered until Mid-June with the IMC so I wouldn't worry too much just yet about them saying they won't register you for 6 weeks, I think it's all done together. Just be ready to register when the jobs come out on the 6th.
    I wasn't worried until I received those nonsense emails from IMC. Anyway, you're most probably right but I'd rather get an answer and be certain.
    Here's an interesting article for about the situation with jobs in Ireland currently

    http://www.imt.ie/news/latest-news/2012/04/alarm-over-the-lack-of-internship-posts.html
    I read it some weeks back and it got me worried (although, being an EU citizen and ranked in the 100th centile I should be advantaged, as unfair as it may be). However, none was left empty-handed in the last years, so I hope nobody will be this year either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Well I hope all this works out for you.

    Possibly getting ahead of things here - but you should keep this thread going after you start working and update us on your impressions of the Irish healt system and working environment :)

    Good luck!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 david_defoe


    Thanks :) I hope I won't have to refer any more problems here and will only post good experiences from now on.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Thanks :) I hope I won't have to refer any more problems here and will only post good experiences from now on.

    Only good experiences ? No no no - tell us the good and the bad - your perspective would be interesting


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 david_defoe


    Yeah, what I meant is I hope I'm only having good experiences from now on, even if I'm sure it won't be so easy ;)
    From what I already know, junior doctors complain of (and often leave the country for) poor career prospectives and tough work shifts. Those are the same problems young doctors have to face in Italy, together with an extreme scarcity of jobs, low salaries, the hostility of patients and media and the abuses of consultants and their friends in politics. That's why I'm leaving. I seriously doubt that working there, as hard as it may be, could possibly be worse than here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    lol....thats why I'm interested to hear your opinion ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    Yeah, what I meant is I hope I'm only having good experiences from now on, even if I'm sure it won't be so easy ;)
    From what I already know, junior doctors complain of (and often leave the country for) poor career prospectives and tough work shifts. Those are the same problems young doctors have to face in Italy, together with an extreme scarcity of jobs, low salaries, the hostility of patients and media and the abuses of consultants and their friends in politics. That's why I'm leaving. I seriously doubt that working there, as hard as it may be, could possibly be worse than here.

    Dont bet on that

    sorry to day David but it can be worse much worse

    To quote the house of God

    " they can always hurt you more"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 david_defoe


    drzhivago wrote: »
    Dont bet on that

    sorry to day David but it can be worse much worse

    To quote the house of God

    " they can always hurt you more"
    I can't imagine anything worse than the italian conditions... If it's really that bad I'll move to UK next year, I guess - of course, still assuming I get to do the intern year in Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    I can't imagine anything worse than the italian conditions... If it's really that bad I'll move to UK next year, I guess - of course, still assuming I get to do the intern year in Ireland.

    Prepare to be shocked :)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,669 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    I think Ireland is not the worst country in Europe, there are severe bottlenecks in career progression though and the EWTD is "Aspirational" (I'm being polite there...)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 325 ✭✭ThatDrGuy


    Prepare to be shocked :)
    Seconded.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    ThatDrGuy wrote: »
    Seconded.

    Lol...this line comes to mind (?Futurama ???)

    'Set your faces to STUN!!'


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 325 ✭✭ThatDrGuy


    Lol...this line comes to mind (?Futurama ???)



    'Set your faces to STUN!!'
    Indeed ! Scruffy's voice was in my head


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 david_defoe


    Prepare to be shocked :)
    Not saying it's not bad, only that here in Italy is bad enough for me to leave and try somewhere else. You'd be surprised by how many of my collegues say I'm right to go away and aren't leaving themselves just because of the language or the distance... About EWTD: 36h shifts and working 70h a week are absolutely normal here too, especially in EDs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭sillymoo



    I saw this today - probably not the best timing, being half way through finals and seeing this. Its has a lot of people in my class very worried. Our college also sent us the report from the HSE (published this month) about the number of applicants and it seem there are about 200 more applicants this year compared to last year. Il have a look and see if I can find it again. It makes interesting reading.

    Personally I have been trying to hold off worrying about this until after the exams. However it is the talk of the library at the moment!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭sillymoo


    sillymoo wrote: »
    I saw this today - probably not the best timing, being half way through finals and seeing this. Its has a lot of people in my class very worried. Our college also sent us the report from the HSE (published this month) about the number of applicants and it seem there are about 200 more applicants this year compared to last year. Il have a look and see if I can find it again. It makes interesting reading.

    Personally I have been trying to hold off worrying about this until after the exams. However it is the talk of the library at the moment!

    Found it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭foreverandever


    I know, it makes for an interesting and slightly alarming read. This problem has been known about for four years though, once the graduate entry medicine began. I have heard some of the consultants and other doctors talking about it and they are quite sure that every irish student will get a job. It is the non-eus that will suffer the most and the problem will only get worse in years to come!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,669 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    It's getting towards 20 years since my intern year :eek: (A certain boardsie was in my class too!!)

    Its a little dispiriting to see that things have changed so little in that time and tbh I suspect that conditions for NCHD's are probably remarkably similar throughout Europe.

    Anyway David_Defoe i hope it works out well. Ireland has some very good teachers and some dedicated and inspirations docs so there are worse places to go.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    RobFowl wrote: »
    It's getting towards 20 years since my intern year :eek: (A certain boardsie was in my class too!!)

    Its a little dispiriting to see that things have changed so little in that time and tbh I suspect that conditions for NCHD's are probably remarkably similar throughout Europe.

    Anyway David_Defoe i hope it works out well. Ireland has some very good teachers and some dedicated and inspirations docs so there are worse places to go.

    I think in Italy probably, but not in UK, Netherlands, etc., .


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