driving on a provisional

E.B

Not sure if this is in the right place....
To my understanding a provisional driver must be accompanied by a person with a full license on the road. Now my question is that I've a couple friends who are on provisionals and drive on their own, tax insured and nct all in check but they are on their own or even have a couple friends with them. They have been pulled over by the guards for various things like tax insurance breath test and so on they have had to hand over their license and no one has anything said to them on driving on a provisional license and no full license driver with them. Am i wrong, are they allowed?

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

dmc17

From citizens information:

"Car drivers with a learner permit must be accompanied at all times by, and be under the supervision of, someone with a current driving licence for a car. Also, the person accompanying you must have had the driving licence for at least two years."

jhegarty

feeney92 wrote: »

They are not aloud,

Correct

feeney92 wrote: »

and if they crash (or get hit) they are not insured,,

Wrong

feeney92 wrote: »

plain and simple.

It would appear not.

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

E.B

Ok so I'm right in this case thanks. Just out of curiosity whats with the guards allowing this or throwing a blind eye??

jhegarty

feeney92 wrote: »

Also, A guy I know was crashed into and the woman who hit him didnt have to pay because he was on his own and should not have been on the road

Bull.

Owryan

In Carlow the gardai seem to charge anyone driving on a learner permit without L plates a lot quicker than one driving alone but with the plates displayed.

Could be a case of common sense.

KERSPLAT!

E.B wrote: »

Ok so I'm right in this case thanks. Just out of curiosity whats with the guards allowing this or throwing a blind eye??

Some just won't bother and throw a blind eye but it is not legal to drive on a provisional licence (lerners permit) without a full licenced driver

I agree with jhegarty, afaik you are still insured. Maybe this should be changed?

Max Power1

feeney92 wrote: »

If you crash on a provisional and you do not have a full driver in the car, your insurance company will not pay out! I know I asked them last year when I was on my provisional! Also, A guy I know was crashed into and the woman who hit him didnt have to pay because he was on his own and should not have been on the road

Baby jesus wept at the reek of BULL

Please educate yourself before you spout uninformed, incorrect, misleading tripe!

Anan1

IPAM wrote: »

I agree with jhegarty, afaik you are still insured. Maybe this should be changed?

That punishes the people they hit. Five points and a hefty enough fine would do the trick, IMO.

KERSPLAT!

Anan1 wrote: »

That punishes the people they hit. Five points and a hefty enough fine would do the trick, IMO.

Spot on, didn't think it through at all

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

Mister Jingles

feeney92 wrote: »

So why bring in the Law if People on their own as provisional drivers can still drive anyway? I am telling you 1st hand when I had my provisional a mere 10 months ago, I rang my insurance company to ask them this specific question and they told me if you do not have a full driver in the car with you your not covered!

Care to name ?

djimi

Owryan wrote: »

In Carlow the gardai seem to charge anyone driving on a learner permit without L plates a lot quicker than one driving alone but with the plates displayed.

Could be a case of common sense.

Common sense would be to pull any unaccompanied learner over and take the keys off them on the spot. Anyone who has not proven that they have the necessary competency to drive on their own should not be on the road unaccompanied. Its a disgrace that the Gardai seem to feel they dont have to enforce this law.

MidlandsM

feeney92 wrote: »

They are not aloud, and if they crash (or get hit) they are not insured, plain and simple.

not entirely, third party extension will apply tho', so who ever they hit or injure, will be sorted.

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

djimi

feeney92 wrote: »

So why bring in the Law if People on their own as provisional drivers can still drive anyway? I am telling you 1st hand when I had my provisional a mere 10 months ago, I rang my insurance company to ask them this specific question and they told me if you do not have a full driver in the car with you your not covered!

You are covered third party regardless. They could if they so felt like it take legal action against you to recover the costs of any damages which they had to pay out on your behalf while driving unaccompanied. Ive no idea how common that is though.

Mister Jingles

*Copy and paste from a post of mine a few weeks ago*


Not that I do or don't agree, I just can't understand the way that a learner is legally required to have someone sit in with them who could a) have never sat a driving test in their life (old people) and b) could possibly have I dunno say 11 points on their own licence and not a good driver in general ?

And lets face it, if every full licence driver in the country was to re-sit a test to the current RSA standards between one to two thirds would probably fail.


Just my opinion.

Maybe something like after 12 EDT lessons are complete then drivers should be allowed on out their own and have done a driving test within 12 weeks after finishing their EDT.

Max Power1

feeney92 wrote: »

So why bring in the Law if People on their own as provisional drivers can still drive anyway? I am telling you 1st hand when I had my provisional a mere 10 months ago, I rang my insurance company to ask them this specific question and they told me if you do not have a full driver in the car with you your not covered!

If you are drunk driving you are breaking the law
if you run a red light you are breaking the law
if you are speeding you are breaking the law

but - SHOCK HORROR - your insurance is NOT invalidated as a result of your law breaking.

Please please stop with the misinformation. I queried this with the IIF (irish insurance federation) months back and confirmed that an insurance company cannot refuse to pay out for statutory cover if an L driver is alone.

corktina

no doubt the Insurance company would still honour the third party minimum requirement BUT they will come after the driver for the dosh and don;t forget they wont cover your own damages which could include many thousands of medical and legal expenses. Largely then, you are legallly covered but your cover is very limited

Max Power1

corktina wrote: »

no doubt the Insurance company would still honour the third party minimum requirement BUT they will come after the driver for the dosh and don;t forget they wont cover your own damages which could include many thousands of medical and legal expenses. Largely then, you are legallly covered but your cover is very limited

They can only do this if its explicitly stated in the policy, otherwise they have no legal basis to recoup any of the funds.

fasttalkerchat

feeney92 wrote: »

They are not aloud, and if they crash (or get hit) they are not insured, plain and simple.

Legally the insurance company could refuse to pay out but they don't always. I know of someone who had an accident when driving alone and the guards and insurance company said nothing.
If you're caught driving in the north without a full license you could lose your license.

Our man in Havana

Stop talking ****e people.

Insurance companies cannot shirk their 3rd party responsibilities.

If you're caught driving in the north without a full license you could lose your license.

Source please?

johnayo

I just added my 17 year old son to my insurance as a named driver last week. I asked the insurance company if he would be covered if he was driving alone, and they said he would. Not that I have any intention of letting it happen.

Henry Ford III

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

...If you're caught driving in the north without a full license you could lose your license....

Not sure about that but you'll lose your car for sure. They even lift untaxed cars from Ireland.

ironclaw

johnayo wrote: »

I just added my 17 year old son to my insurance as a named driver last week. I asked the insurance company if he would be covered if he was driving alone, and they said he would. Not that I have any intention of letting it happen.

I've probably read this wrong from my experience, but if they are driving alone on a provisional, it invalidates your insurance to the lowest legally specified level so that would mean the person who they hit are covered by your policy, but not you (Nor anyone else in the car, nor the car itself) Hence third party only. It does not totally invalidate your insurance to the point where everyone involved has zero cover on your policy. (Bearing in mind the other person has insurance too)

Fully open to correction on the above.

Our man in Havana

You are open to correction.

3rd party covers damage to other vehicles, their passengers and passengers in your car.

fasttalkerchat

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Stop talking ****e people.

Insurance companies cannot shirk their 3rd party responsibilities.

Source please?

You're insurance doesn't cover you for driving alone so technically you have no insurance.
You may lose your driving licence for 12 months to 3 years and could face a custodial sentence of 3 months.
yourdrivinglicence.co.uk

According to the RAC, the driving ban would not take affect until after you pass your test.

This answer is in relation to his question about NI/UK only.

Our man in Havana

You're insurance doesn't cover you for driving alone so technically you have no insurance.

I am going to ban the next person that posts crap like this.

Alanstrainor

Learner Permits are only valid in the republic.

kirving

When I was being added to my mothers insurance, she asked if I would be covered if I ever really needed to drive on my own. They said yes, I would be covered, but that they wouldn't advise it since you can be fined.

Look at it this way, no matter what accident someone is in, if it is their fault, they have broken a law. Driving without due care and attention would cover most things. Guess what? Insurance still pays out.

mark renton

Our man in Havana wrote: »

I am going to ban the next person that posts crap like this.

This is the crap you should be banning

djimi wrote: »

Common sense would be to pull any unaccompanied learner over and take the keys off them on the spot. Anyone who has not proven that they have the necessary competency to drive on their own should not be on the road unaccompanied. Its a disgrace that the Gardai seem to feel they dont have to enforce this law.

Guy:Incognito

Owryan wrote: »

In Carlow the gardai seem to charge anyone driving on a learner permit without L plates a lot quicker than one driving alone but with the plates displayed.

Could be a case of common sense.

Huh? That "common sense" is stupid. They should be taking a hard line wuth learners drivign unaccompanied, not sendign on their bloody way with a smile. The sooner this stupid country wakes up to the actual responsibilities invovled in driving the better,

I'm normally one that will side with the Gards on the majority of issues but they do my head in on issues like this. No excuse for being so lax.

Anan1 wrote: »

That punishes the people they hit. Five points and a hefty enough fine would do the trick, IMO.

They should be covered 3rd party only, regardless of what cover they have paid for and sue for costs against the driver.

corktina

Max Power1 wrote: »

They can only do this if its explicitly stated in the policy, otherwise they have no legal basis to recoup any of the funds.

but if they do, how much would it cost you to fight them in court? Would you ever get Insurance at a reasonable price again afterwards?

the_syco

feeney92 wrote: »

I rang my insurance company to ask them this specific question and they told me if you do not have a full driver in the car with you your not covered!

That is what they say, but in reality they have to cover you.

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Learner Permits are only valid in the republic.

Correct, so you really are driving without a license if you drive up north.

=-=

I think the insurance companies say that you're not covered, which is correct in their terms, BUT, and that's a big but, I'm pretty sure someone found legislation that said otherwise, and the legislation trumps the insurance companies terms, so the insurance company must pay out. I say this as I remember a big hullabaloo about it a while back when the legislation was found

Tigger

feeney92 wrote: »

If you crash on a provisional and you do not have a full driver in the car, your insurance company will not pay out! I know I asked them last year when I was on my provisional! Also, A guy I know was crashed into and the woman who hit him didnt have to pay because he was on his own and should not have been on the road

Wel my mate's Da has a Sierra and it can go faster than a Garda bike and if they see him speeding they can't chase him cos there is no point his car is too fast so he can go as fast as he wants and also my mate's Da eats icecream for breakfast and he has two leather jackets.

djimi

john47832 wrote: »

This is the crap you should be banning

Djimi wrote:

Common sense would be to pull any unaccompanied learner over and take the keys off them on the spot. Anyone who has not proven that they have the necessary competency to drive on their own should not be on the road unaccompanied. Its a disgrace that the Gardai seem to feel they dont have to enforce this law.

Care to elaborate on what is "crap" about this post?

Mr Benevolent

I'm on a provisional and drive unaccompanied. In a year I've been stopped 4-5 times for tax/NCT validity checks with obvious L plates displayed without a problem. I know I'm insured driving unaccompanied, if I wasn't I wouldn't bother driving. The Gardai do not care if you're driving unaccompanied as long as you're not doing anything stupid or dangerous.

Please stop spouting stupid bull about not being insured if you're unaccompanied, it's a product of the "my mate said his mate knew someone who..." school of thought.

ironclaw

Confab wrote: »

I'm on a provisional and drive unaccompanied.

Why do you drive on your own when the law clearly states you must drive with a full license holder? From the very same set of laws that says you have to pay tax, its illegal to murder someone etc etc.

Typical Irish mentality of pick and choose the laws we want to follow because it suits us, and the Gardai turn a blind eye (As per usual) If you can't have someone with a full license to drive with you, you don't drive. Simple.

Anan1

Confab wrote: »

I'm on a provisional and drive unaccompanied. In a year I've been stopped 4-5 times for tax/NCT validity checks with obvious L plates displayed without a problem. I know I'm insured driving unaccompanied, if I wasn't I wouldn't bother driving. The Gardai do not care if you're driving unaccompanied as long as you're not doing anything stupid or dangerous.

Please stop spouting stupid bull about not being insured if you're unaccompanied, it's a product of the "my mate said his mate knew someone who..." school of thought.

So, you're insured. It's still a selfish, irresponsible and, yes, illegal thing to do.

kirving

ironclaw wrote: »

Why do you drive on your own when the law clearly states you must drive with a full license holder? From the very same set of laws that says you have to pay tax, its illegal to murder someone etc etc.

Typical Irish mentality of pick and choose the laws we want to follow because it suits us, and the Gardai turn a blind eye (As per usual) If you can't have someone with a full license to drive with you, you don't drive. Simple.

Honestly, what difference do you think it makes 99.9% of the time? The person in the passenger can't drive the car. A responsible, alert driver on a learner permit I don't see a problem with. The test is somewhat arbitrary too, I see people every day who have somehow passed their test and should be shot for the kind of dangerous things they do.

Rasmus

Ok, it's been established that a learner driver is covered in the event of an accident. So what does happen to an insured person with a provisional licence if they get into an accident? Fines? Higher premiums? Prosecution?

Anan1

Rasmus wrote: »

Ok, it's been established that a learner driver is covered in the event of an accident. So what does happen to an insured person with a provisional licence if they get into an accident? Fines? Higher premiums? Prosecution?

Whether they're prosecuted is down to the Gardaí, who seem reluctant on this issue to enforce the law. I'd be interested to know whether the insurance company can load a policyholder for driving unaccompanied in the absence of a successful prosecution?

Mr Benevolent

Rasmus wrote: »

Ok, it's been established that a learner driver is covered in the event of an accident. So what does happen to an insured person with a provisional licence if they get into an accident? Fines? Higher premiums? Prosecution?

Same as everyone else, higher premiums.

So, you're insured. It's still a selfish, irresponsible and, yes, illegal thing to do.

I agree, I'm not perfect. However, I've been assured by instructor, senior testers and Gardai that no-one cares. I drive carefully, I haven't had an accident and I'm considerate to other road users. I don't act irresponsibly on the road. So again, while I agree with you, I don't actually care. So that's my last position on the subject. I will get my licence in the next six months, but otherwise I certainly won't stop driving as long as the car is taxed, NCTed and insured.

Anan1

Confab wrote: »

Same as everyone else, higher premiums.

I would have thought that an unaccompanied learner permit holder would be hit harder come renewal, in much the same way as would someone who was drink driving. It's an aggravating factor.

Rasmus

This may be obvious, but if there are no hard and fast penalties for driving unaccompanied, what are the incentives to obey the law?
Edit: If the premiums skyrocket, this should be a deterrent - how many people actually go through insurance companies if it's only a fender bender..

Gran Hermano

What is a Provisional? My understanding is that anyone driving on a provisional must be driving on an expired licence. A current learner's permit is not a provisional, it never allows a learner drive on their own. There is no grey area like the old second provisional exception.

In other countries if you are caught driving on your own on a learning permit you'll find yourself walking home whilst expecting a fine/ban and your car on the way to a crusher.

Anan1

Confab wrote: »

I agree, I'm not perfect. However, I've been assured by instructor, testers and Gardai that no-one cares.

What about the people who have to share the roads with you? We care, because it potentially affects us.

Confab wrote: »

I drive carefully, I haven't had an accident and I'm considerate to other road users. I don't act irresponsibly on the road. So again, while I agree with you, I don't actually care.

Your driving unaccompanied is of itself irresponsible. You don't yet have the experience to drive unaccompanied.

Rasmus

So the cases of people getting away with it are to do with those with provisional licences, not learners permits?

jhegarty

Rasmus wrote: »

So the cases of people getting away with it are to do with those with provisional licences, not learners permits?

There hasn't been provisional licences in years. The only way someone could have one is if it was long expired.